[Closed] Is being foreign a protected characteristic?

@mctd

Yes, I agree.

But I'm going the other direction; I'm not assuming because he's Dutch he is therefore going to be direct. I'm saying he is direct but that it is unlikely to be actual rudeness but rather because of his Dutch background and upbringing.

Willem is Dutch

Willem is direct.

Dutch people are known for being direct.

I am not surprised when Willem is direct, I think that is because of his Dutch culture as opposed to any inherent rudeness.

I don't think Willem should be penalised for being direct. I think he needs to be aware that to some people his directness could be perceived as rude or abrupt. I don't think Willem should be forced to stop being direct just because the British typically are not.

[edit to address johnx2]

When someone approaches me and comments that Willem is rude, I say that I don't actually think that he is, he is just direct, that is a known trait of the Dutch and he is Dutch. If that's discriminatory I'll have to moderate but I don't think it is. I don't specifically go around telling everyone Willem is dutch and therefore be ready for his directness, or make it a topic every time he comes up in conversation.

I think we're agreeing again......

People from different cultures are often culturally different.

Understanding those differences and accommodating them are what makes for effective communication.

It doesn't help that for every 10 words a British person says, 8 of them will pointless pleasantries or unnecessary apologies.

* do you agree?

I just asked Madame, she came back with "serviable", there were a few Dutch clients on the campsite I worked on, they were fun loving and open, they'd talk to anyone (and could). So on a limited sample size "directness" wasn't the first thing to spring to mind, "helpful" was.

As an example, when we stopped on Dutch cycle paths to read the map, it wasn't long before someone would stop and offer to give directions.

I suspect I'm a bit more "direct" when I speak German, in Spanish I can't help being blunt and to the point and consider it a success if I finish the sentence without running out of words.

What do you want, poetry?

I’ve got Dutch family and I would definitely say that to a lot of people they may come across rude but to me at least I find them just factual. They are all very eccentric but because they are all eccentric it’s just normal.

My Dutch cousin told me about when he was 20 (15 years back) he had just got his first proper job and what do all 20 something with money do, spend it down the pub. Que his mum having a moan so he decided to move out with a mate. The estate agent told them that no one would rent to two 20 something guys, they asked what would make them more appealing. They were told if they were couple it would be less of an issue. They honestly started to look into getting a civil partnership but thankfully found somewhere that was happy with their age. They see an issue, they see a solution and they solve it.

I’m agreeing too, in the sense I support the stance you’re taking to understand/allow someone’s behaviours based on their background.

I also support positive discrimination, I’ve had to consider it and deal with it carefully in the workplace myself. It gets really tricky though. And I guess that’s the point;

However I’ve been stopped in my tracks by someone saying I’m not allowed to refer to his Dutchness

You’re not gonna explain to “someone” in a nutshell what has slowly become apparent in this thread.

What if you said “John’s quite direct, in my experience that’s common in his culture”.
Rather than “John’s Dutch. That’s why he’s direct”.
See how the two statements differ in the application of a generalisation? It’s quite subtle.

I'd post a pic of junior and his Dutch friends but it'd take too long to photshop all the faces out. You have to imagine a very dusty car in somethingstan with a metre high roof rack thing with two aircraft seats bolted to it. They sure know how to party.

If you think the dutch are abrupt at work you should try working with Flemish Belgians.

Once you get used to it, they can be good company, but whatever you do, DO NOT get onto the topic of the 'Walloon French'...

Where there are Dutch people there's a party. There's a reason they're direct

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from

The main thing I know about the Dutch is they take Hagelslag (chocolate sprinkles) everywhere they go.

Also when we arrived at our campsite in Annecy a few years back at 11pm in a howling thunderstorm and were trying to put our tent up (2 of us with 2 young kids) the one and only person who came out to help us was a rather lovely Dutch chap. Have always thought they were alright since then!!

Is being foreign a protected characteristic?

Anyway, I hope so. Because every day makes me feel more like a foreigner in my own country. Brexit Britain is not my Britain.

Alternatively you could view his workplace behaviours as a failure to adapt to the organisational culture

Every workplace has one, they vary, you either fit within the expected parameters or you don't

If he's rubbing up people in the wrong way is it their problem or his? If he isn't aware of the impact he has on others his line manager needs to be making him aware, that can be done in a nuanced way or his manager could try some cultural appropriation and be very direct.

If he can't adjust sufficiently then there are plenty of other places where he might fit in.

Incidentally it is, the EU definition a racism includes descrimination on the basis of nationality, and that had to be written into British law a the time so until they change it.

This has nothing to do with an "EU" definition of racism. The definition of the protected characteristics regarding race (in s.9 of the equality act 2010) are essentially lifted from the 1968 Race Relations Act - and Nationality (or more specifically National Origin) has been a protected characteristic since before the UK joined the EU.

Is being foreign a protected characteristic

Yes, if English is not their first language. How do you expect them to express in a correct way when their first language is not English? They may be speaking English but their mind is not British. Just like some of you who can speak another language(s) or working in another country, you may speak their language but I really doubt your expression can be spot on all the time.

Alternatively you could view his workplace behaviours as a failure to adapt to the organisational culture

Every workplace has one, they vary, you either fit within the expected parameters or you don’t

Is it their problem or his?

True, and if it was a regular complaint or 'everyone' thought it, I might be more concerned but it isn't.

The actual issue and question was not about how to manage his directness. I can deal with and manage that by reminding him of how it can come across at times, and in in talking to others about not misinterpreting directness with rudeness.

It's when I suggested WHY he's disposed to be direct when someone told me I cannot mention him being Dutch. It (and then some comments on here) make me question myself, hence why asking. I absolutely get that I would not ascribe this as typical of sex, or race, or orientation for example, so am I / are we wrong to know that the Dutch have a tendency for being direct and in knowing that have better understanding of why interactions with him may tend towards being direct?

If I am there's a lot then on the internet of non-compliant types of advice and documentation.

Follow up, as big n' daft raises another interesting point.

As a manager, this culture of 'everyone has to fit in and conform' is actually a problem to me. We want different people with different skills, and experiences. If we only recruit or retain people that are like us i think the organisation is worse for it. Yes, there are certain standards and expectations, but we need a certain number of people that 'disrupt', make us work in different ways, that challenge the status quo.

This makes him sound like a problem. He isn't, far from it. He's a fabulous worker, incredibly smart, with a tendency to be direct and to the point. No more.

Hello from APAC. You think you have cultural differences in Europe...try working in Asia. Part of my job is advising of the practical issues associated with working in the region, with specific focus on explaining the cultural differences when working in Japan.

With all things like this, context is everything. Is it automatically discriminatory to mention somebody's nationality? Of course not. Just like it's not automatically discriminatory to mention somebody's gender or race. The discrimination comes from the context.

You were not discriminating against him because he is Dutch, you were encouraging others to understand cultural differences in his communications style. Which seems (pretty obviously?) to be the opposite of discriminatory.

At the point that we can't objectively point out the differences between two things, we're ****ed.

Hmmm. Interesting discussion.
I reckon if he is just direct, that might seem rude, but if he doesn't insult anyone then fine, its just the way he is.
If he goes a bit further than that, then Dutch or not, he's an arse.

So then a concern about you excusing him being an arse because he is Dutch is that you are straying into multicultural relativism, and that has got us into a lot of trouble in the past.
EG its ok for that people of xyz religion to stop the women from driving, because that's their belief system, whilst ignoring the fact that they are riding roughshod over their human rights.
So even if being Dutch was a "protected characteristic" that doesn't give anyone an excuse to be an arse.

Note I am not saying he is an arse, he might not be. If he just is a bit abrupt, well if people do not like him because of that then the only suffering will be his own.

Politeness is a construct not an absolute and its a different construct in different countries / cultures

The peculiar thing with the dutch I find ( I have dutch family) is that although they are really a very similar peoples in many ways to both brits and Germans ( descended from the same tribes, similar languages) is the Dutch social compact and culture of politeness is very different to both Brits and Germans.

This can make them appear abrupt and rude to us - but that is because by their cultural norms they are being polite.

Examples of this is its very rare for anyone to strike up a conversation with you - because to interrupt you and / or to be in your personal space is rude to them. To ignore you is polite. As an example of this on a two week tour on our tandem around the netherlands and being obvious tourists with an unusual bike and flying a saltire off the back of the bike only once did someone strike a conversation with us. Every time we stopped and parked the bike up in a town people would be looking at it. If we started a conversation with someone then they were immediately very interested and asked us loads of stuff but no one will start that conversation as to them its rude to do so

Same with the friendly nod / hello if you meet someone while out walking in their bits of countryside. No one does it. Again because to them its rude to interrupt your peace. /same as they will let a door slam in your face if you try to follow them thru a doorway. Its not rude to them. to hold the door open requiring you to enter their personal space and to acknowledge their existence is rude if you are dutch

the point of all this spiel is really to point out that cultural differences around what is rude or not are their and the Dutch in particular have a very different social compact to us.

Politeness is a social construct and what to us is polite can be seen as rude by others and IMO its quite reasonable to make allowances for other cultures in assessing behaviours

I remembered another Dutch one

to me its polite to ask someone if they speak english before asking a question in english ( If you are in their country)

so I walk into a shop "HI - do you speak English" "yes of course" and they look insulted.

So thats me being polite by the standards of the UK but its rude to a dutch person because you are implying you think they have a poor education

I think us brits overthink this stuff and spend too much time self flagellating. I work with people from many countries every day...not just Europe. And their biggest 'criticism' of us brits is that we are not direct enough...we pussy foot about never getting to the point to the point that people from other countries, cultures especially those who don't speak English as a first language, can easily become confused about the way we approach things and often come away form a conversation with a completely different impression of what has been discussed.

Not the case that the dutch or others are too direct, more of a case that us brits are often not direct enough and we seem to think that people being direct is rude.

I don't disagree with all that tj, wobbliscott etc., are saying, I think that validates my and many others' experience and knowledge about (let's call them communication preferences rather than cultural norms or stereotypes) of the Dutch, and to an extent other NorEU colleagues. In the same way as it's useful to know that people from some other cultures also have communication preferences / dos and don'ts. In general....the Swedes don't like their personal space being invaded; hence I always wait to be asked before going into my Swedish colleague's office.  When handed a business card by someone from Japan, take time to read it and don't put it straight into your pocket, because that may be seen as rude and dismissive.

But the point is whether when someone made a comment about those communication preferences, that comment being that they are rude and abrupt; I was stopped in my explanation by someone else* who said that I cannot refer to them being Dutch in any explanation or mitigation.

I'm allowed to say they are not meaning to be rude, but yes they can be very direct which could be interpreted as rudeness. And *I think* I'm even allowed to say that is probably cultural and upbringing. It was the fact that as soon as I mentioned nationality it was shutdown, as if I was straying into forbidden territory.

* didn't want to open this particularly. but it was HR, responding to a complaint that Willem had been rude to another staff member. They asked me to speak to him (which I will) but I also need to speak to the other person and present the other side.

I did wonder if it was an overzealous HR person! Idiots

OP sounds like a sensible person, who has s good understanding of cultural sensitivity (and backgrounds) and understanding when behaviours are unacceptable (regardless of culture) and when there is a balance between the two.

I wonder if the over zealous HR type who made the outright ban comment (which is wrong IMO for all the reasons already mentioned) is trying to establish a harder line for less sensible people in the organisation as a way to improve nationality discrimination and stereotyping.

Seems like trying to simplify the nuanced intelligent thought process made by OP into a "nope can't say that" because its much much simpler for them to understand or explain to less 'culturally sensitive' team mates

ah. So conversation in the first post was with an HR person trying to address a complaint thinking focus on nationality was not the best tack (my possibly generous interpretation). No wonder it sounded double dutch.

Where there are Dutch people there’s a party.

And you're not invited. Spent 4 years in NL and was NEVER invited to a Dutch person's home. Maybe it was my table manners they didn't like ...

Turns out I might be Dutch.

I did wonder if it was an overzealous HR person! Idiots

And what does that make the person who complained to HR rather than just talk to Willem ?

The HR person is doing their job, Willem is doing his job rather well apparently and someone took a personal grudge to HR. We need to know more about that person to be objective and in what context they work together.

From what I found a provocative opening presentation of the issue things have become a reasonable debate. 🙂

Both my dad and his mum were from/born in Belgium. My wife thinks whenever my family get together we argue and are rude to each other. Reading this thread explains alot!

given that HR are involved and have said you must not use nationality in discussions means IMO you need to follow HRs lead on that but it does limit your options somewhat. Me and t'missus disagree tho - she thinks nationality should not be mentioned

Turns out I might be Dutch.

😀

I often wish our work culture was more like the Dutch people I've encountered. Saying what you mean, surely that's just sensible? Nuance can easily be misinterpreted.

I so agree superficial. I never get hints nor pick up on subtle social clues. I do ask people to tell me straight and that I will not be offended if they do

As a manager, this culture of ‘everyone has to fit in and conform’ is actually a problem to me. We want different people with different skills, and experiences. If we only recruit or retain people that are like us i think the organisation is worse for it.

I agree with the main thrust of this however any organisation has a culture and there is a bandwidth of accepted behaviours which help hold the team together. Somebody who acts outside these won't be able to function properly and will disrupt others.

The simple answer is you tackle the behaviours, don't make allowances based on national stereotypes, you don't need to reference them, you employ an individual for their talents not for their national and cultural background.

The person complaining may need address their behaviours and learn to manage interactions better as well.

Turn it around. Imagine if you were going abroad, how would you want to be treated?

"Ah yes, molgrips does that British thing where they don't say what they mean - you have to try and interpret when listening to him"

"Meh, you can say what you like about molgrips in French, Brits only ever speak English so he won't understand."

"He probably hates us because Brits hate foreigners - Cromwell/Clive/Rhodes (delete as appropriate)"

The Dutch are quite special. I had a Dutch boss for 10 years ( in a Dutch/Swiss) - who was very direct. Once you get used to it, it is fine.
The interesting thing with the Dutch is that you cannot be direct back to them - or else they get very upset. Mostly they have thin skins ...

Just tell him you don't like the directness - and move on ....

If you don't like the Dutch 'tude, avoid the Swiss ...

The interesting thing with the Dutch is that you cannot be direct back to them – or else they get very upset. Mostly they have thin skins …

Yes, exactly this, I have noticed this weird contradiction also!!

What is lacking here is cultural intelligence. If you trust each other then you can ask “Did I say something wrong there?” rather than imposing your own cultural view on to a situation. If you react in a way that is characterised by “That’s not what we do here” then you are going to get in to conflict.

When you work with different cultures then you both have to learn what is considered normal on both sides and then apply that to the situation. A challenge can still be made, but as long as there is trust and understanding then checking somebody who had been inappropriate is a lot easier than taking offence at something where there was no attempt to do so.

A lot of times when we are dealing with situations in our own language when the other person is using their second language this situation is amplified. This can be worse for native English speakers who make assumptions all the time about nuanced phrases that can be taken so many ways. You never lose out just checking your own actions first as the other party sees you are trying to understand, but if you call somebody out for “being Dutch” almost all the time you are starting from the weaker position and have probably not understood something right. The further you get away from your own culture the worse this misunderstanding can get.

The bottom line is not to take offence, use it as a starting point for a conversation where both parties learn how each other communicates.

I don't know why it would be worse for Native English speakers, other languages are just as nuanced. You can play games in any language you wish. You can be reasonable and kind or an arse, your choice.

What I'm learning from this discussion is that everyone else is normal and it's the Brits that are fannies.

The Dutch are also special in that when they arrive at a place to camp for 2,3,4 weeks etc. they tend to congregate in groups and their tents/caravans/mobilehomes are stuffed to the gills with Dutch produce.  This is an almost British thing to do in it's weirdness in that assuming you can't get decent produce away from home.

However this is also partnered with an attitude of not spending any money whilst in that lovely French/Austrian/Croatian village. Nice but mad, direct, party loving, hard drinking/smoking and miserly is often how they are thought of.  On the other hand the Brits and Germans are also mad but at least when they roll into town they spend lots of cash so the bars and restaurants are happy (although probably not happy with the way we butcher their language and get drunk).

We're all a bit weird but the Dutch are extra special. Don't get me stated on hard and soft "G".

🤦‍♂️

https://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com

This is a good resource for investigating weird Dutch habits

Alternatively you could view his workplace behaviours as a failure to adapt to the organisational culture

Every workplace has one, they vary, you either fit within the expected parameters or you don’t

...

any organisation has a culture and there is a bandwidth of accepted behaviours which help hold the team together. Somebody who acts outside these won’t be able to function properly and will disrupt others.

You need to be a little bit careful here though. You're assuming that the existent culture is correct because Numbers, and that's a dangerous game to be playing. "Oh, we can't make Jenny a team leader, the lads on the floor won't take orders from a woman". And a hundred other scenarios where if your face doesn't fit it's actually the culture that needs to change.

It's a difficult one for sure. Different cultures are culturally different, who knew. A friend of mine used to work for a Japanese company (in the UK) and part of his training was lessons on Japanese culture. The business card example mentioned above was one he told me about, there's a whole ritual where you have to look at the card, then the person, then the card again, to demonstrate that you'd associated the details with their face. Going "ta!" and shoving it straight into your back pocket would be the height of rudeness.

Should they instead have just gone "well, that's the way Brits are"? There's an argument in favour of this for sure, especially as they were a UK branch. But what then if they have prospective clients coming over from Japan for the first time, a simple social faux pas with a business card could have just cost them a multi-million pound deal.

I suppose the solution is a bit of give and take on both sides.

I suppose the solution is a bit of give and take on both sides.

What sort of talk is that?

Sorry, what was I thinking. Hoof in the slats, with clogs on.

I met a Dutch fella this morning.

Picking up some flowers for Mother's day, he was delivering to the florist.

A very jolly and friendly chap, we spoke about mother's day and how it's on a different day in Holland.

He had a HUGE lorry packed full of boxes of flowers, but he was more than happy to take the florist's boxes back after she unpacket them..... lord knows how he was going find room for them ??

Sorry, as you were.

I work with Germans, French, Koreans, Americans, all sorts. To be honest you learn that the best thing to do is to try to hear what they are saying, don’t take stuff personally and reflect back to them what you feel has been said. Talking about cultural differences is fine and a key part of our team building. Equally being respectful of others as individuals is critical too.

I worked for the Dutch parent company of the UK arm of DAEL Telecom. myself and 4 other lads got sent out for "training" when it was basically slave labour and getting beasted with abysmal health and safety for 4 months, and we all absolutely hated the Dutch by the time we left.

The poles were fine and the Russians were drunk and always after a Brawl.
I was about 42yrs old the other lads were 25ish 2 from Yorkshire and 2 from near Brighton.

We were fairly murderous by the end of our "training" and none of us intended to ever visit again.