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shutting down large swaths of the economy
What would you have preferred the gov to do?
How good is your understanding of risk/maths?
So you are genuinely saying lockdown was not necessary?
I agree on the government's incompetence. One of its mistakes being not bringing in lockdown earlier.
However lock down was necessary, however good the government might have been/not been.
Look at the mess in America where they are still going through an extended version of the first wave in large part due to a patchy, incoherent lock down and premature exit from it.
What would you have preferred the gov to do?
How good is your understanding of risk/maths?
Degree level. Even significantly below that level it should be clear that actually dying from covid is less likely than something else is for the majority of the population. I'll accept that my tolerance for old people dying is higher than average though.
So you are genuinely saying lockdown was not necessary?
No, jut that they locked down and supported those a minimal risk rather than concentrating resources on those at a high risk. Leaving the under 50's to carry on as normal with support for those in that age range at significant risk would have seem sensible to me. My opinion might be biased as I worked through out and my risk was almost entirely due to my wife's job which I had no control over.
So you are genuinely saying lockdown was not necessary?
It's hard to understand what anyone is saying when they equate...
Our appalling death rate and economic damage is due to
... as being the same thing.
If that is indeed what Gribs is suggesting then I already answered this a page or two back, it's the Millennium Bug argument and it's fallacious.
shutting down large swaths of the economy
You still haven't answered the question - what would you have preferred the gov do?
Using your self-proclaimed knowledge of risk & maths, how would you have communicated with the public who you describe as having no understanding of risk/maths?
Degree level.
What's your degree in?
it should be clear that actually dying from covid is less likely than something else is for the majority of the population.
Whilst this may have been true when lockdown started, it misses the point.
It's a pandemic which is not symptomatic until you've been infected for a couple of weeks and cheerfully spreading it to everyone else. Unchecked, what do you think would have happened?
"It's usually not fatal" is hardly a poster-boy defence. If great swathes of the population had been hospitalised at the same time then the NHS would have keeled over. Dying of cancer? Too bad, every bed we have is full of people on artificial lungs. Even if CV19 deaths had been over-predicted, indirect (and wholly avoidable) deaths would have been huge. It is critical to the healthcare services, the country and to the world that if this thing spreads then it does so in a controlled manner.
Or you could whine because McDonald's is shut.
We’re still semi-adhering, got family members that are at risk. That being said, have been to local and have had said at risk family (bubble) over to stay. Now on self imposed self-isolation because heading Scotland in a few week on holiday and with at risk family member, so don’t want to risk anything.
Leaving the under 50’s to carry on as normal with support for those in that age range at significant risk would have seem sensible to me
which would not have worked. Under 50s get it and die from it as well and those under 50s would simply have spread it around the population to the extent that hospitals would be overwhelmed and the over 50s would get it anyway
Those numbers were based on a model which had been discredited and was based on entirely on guesswork.
I reckon we're going to get a second set of data by the end of the year with less restrictions in place, so the model may well be proved right.
I don't disagree with the argument that lockdown is and was necessary, but there are alternative views that should be heard.
This is all going a bit brexity though....agree with us or we'll all gang up and shout at you. Dismissing anyone with another view as a moron who's just happy because McDonalds is open again is not they way to persuade and convince. Whether you happen to be right or not.
I wear a mask everywhere that it has been requested to. I don't actually think masks will make a whole lot of difference in many scenarios but I wear one anyway.
I went to a garden centre yesterday, wore mask at all times which was mostly walking around outside. However, the restaurant (which I didn't go into) was full of people over 60 not wearing masks.
To me that doesn't make any sense (I know you can't wear a mask while eating!) but why would I be wearing a mask walking outside while ea load of more vulnerable people are all sat together for 30 minutes with no masks.
Kerley - its about cumulative risk. You cannot wear a mask while eating but the tables should either be separated by a screen or 2 m. Yes its a risk. But by wearing the mask in places its mandated you reduce your overall risk - and masks do work. Not 100% but they do reduce risk.
Sorry what? You’re in quarantine but you’ve been shopping?
don't be sorry!
I did indeed mean prior to quarantine. I am fully aware we are not allowed to leave our home, hence why we haven't.
We're having a local spike. Fortunately I'm laid up with a busted knee. Unfortunately that gives me time to check on my employers working out. This article seems pertinent to the mask argument (and also why our blower heating at work is not the best idea).
In short wearing a mask help reduce the risk to others and particle size of infectious aerosol may be smaller than first thought.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30323-4/fulltext
In this case it’s the government trying to spread the disease.
Let everyone who can die from something die…
grum
Say what now?
It's hard to make it any simpler... what do you think "control the virus" means?
It's a case of dribble it out and keep it below the radar.
If you think Cummings has changed from "protect the economy and if old people die so be it" that's deluded.
You're all mostly talking about death. Each of which is someone'e loved one.
What about the 'long haulers'. These are people who are around the 35 - 60 age group. Mostly fit and healthy to start with, now suffering from post viral fatigue syndrome, also loss of smell and taste and worry over the chance of having a stroke or heart attack at any time. Their lives for the time being are completely on hold.
It's very simple. Wear a mask for others. Wash your hands properly and frequently for others and stay away from people you know who are vulnerable.
In lock down abide by the rules.
It really is simple.
Edit: I forgot the all important 2 metre distancing, which is just over 6 foot for many elderly people who think 2m is 2 feet.
Kerley – its about cumulative risk. You cannot wear a mask while eating but the tables should either be separated by a screen or 2 m. Yes its a risk.
Yes, I understand that. The risk of having restaurant full of people over 60 is a risk that is not worth taking in my view. Just have some tea and cake outdoors in the garden with whoever you are in restaurant with.
shutting down large swaths of the economy
If we'd shut down much earlier, before it had spread everywhere, the shut down would have been a lot shorter and the economic damage far less. The mistake Boris made was to ignore all the ample warnings and wait till it was out of control and then shut down. Thus we got the best of both worlds, max deaths and max economic damage. World beating as he proclaimed.
The risk of having restaurant full of people over 60 is a risk that is not worth taking in my view.
Well if the over 60s are happy to go out and take the risk, that's their call - it's mainly their lives on the line.
As for opening restaurants, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place, having locked down too late and therefore for too long, we're trying to salvage the economy before that ends up killing people.
Well if the over 60s are happy to go out and take the risk, that’s their call – it’s mainly their lives on the line.
Only if they agree to top themselves as soon as they get a cough? If not, they're taking up an intensive care bed that could be used by a cancer patient.
What a depressing amount of ignorance and selfishness on this thread.
A pandemic is pretty much the one instance where we all need to do as we're told so that the authorities can tweak the response as needed. You see how ****ed up the USA is? It's because people think they know better. Well, you don't.
****ing anti science ****ers.
Is anyone else still following Covid advice?
Yes. If you don't you're a dick.
A lot of the problem is the paradox of prevention, people are saying 'it's not that bad and the risk is low so why do I need to bother' because containment measures have been mostly effective (even if ineptly handled), and they don't understand how these things can spiral out of control without containment.
It's just lazy thinking though. I made the mistake of reading a Sun article with a worst case scenario government prediction and the amount of comments calling it a hoax and 'plandemic' was pretty worrying. We are already a long way down the Trump rabbit hole.
Well if the over 60s are happy to go out and take the risk, that’s their call – it’s mainly their lives on the line.
How is it just their lives on the line whereas for me walking around in the outside of a garden center with a mask on it is other peoples lives on the line that I need to 'protect' with my mask?
How is it just their lives on the line whereas for me walking around in the outside of a garden center with a mask on it is other peoples lives on the line that I need to ‘protect’ with my mask?
Not really sure I understand the Q, but generally older people are at a higher risk to dying from CV-19, so they are the bulk of the at risk group we are all protecting by wearing masks etc. Obs there are other at risk groups, imunocompromised, obese, diebetic etc.
A lot of the problem is the paradox of prevention
That’s where Cougar’s Y2K example comes in.
Molgrip’s point is also strong.
I think Davey has put it in terms everyone can understand though.
On the plus side, death rates are improving due to better care / treatment....
A pandemic is pretty much the one instance where we all need to do as we’re told so that the authorities can tweak the response as needed.
Even if those authorities are completely incompetent and politically motivated? The trouble with covid is that it requires a collective response. Unfortunately we've created a society over the past 40 years which has rejected any form of collectivist action in favour of selfish individualism. I don't agree with them, but can completely understand people not sticking to the rules, especially when the people making the rules do not practice what they preach.
I think Davey has put it in terms everyone can understand though.
If only the government could be quite so clear about it.
Is anyone else still following Covid advice?
Yes. If you don’t you’re a dick.
Not disagreeing but reducing the argument to this level is not going to win people over. Especially when we speak elsewhere about not following rules we disagree with.
The whole Brexit situation has shown that entrenched views don't become less entrenched by simply shouting 'YOU'RE WRONG! YOU ARE A DICK!' ever more loudly. Even if they are.
If we’d shut down much earlier, before it had spread everywhere, the shut down would have been a lot shorter and the economic damage far less. The mistake Boris made was to ignore all the ample warnings and wait till it was out of control and then shut down. Thus we got the best of both worlds, max deaths and max economic damage. World beating as he proclaimed.
This.
I tried to argue this with my BiL on Sunday, but he's gone a bit Brexity of late, so the government "couldn't have locked down any earlier as people wouldn't have listened". I pointed out that we are now at 5+ months and the majority of people are still listening, but by the end I suspect he was starting to think I am unpatriotic...
But I really couldn't put it any clearer.
We. Had. A. Two. Week. Head. Start. Over. Most. Of. Europe.
And Joris pissed it away.
Expecting our first child in a couple months, so we're still 'shielding' and essentially in lock-down to limit the risk;
- All food delivered and cleaned before putting it in the house
- All packaging opened outside and items quarantined for a number of days before it comes in
- No shops, meals, pubs or anything else for in public spaces.
- 'Bubbling' with another family that are also 'at risk' who are doing what we're doing
- We've met select friends and family in the garden or on a walk with 3+m distance between us and masks where necessary
It might sound extreme, but we're not taking any unnecessary risks with our first child. There is still a big unknown around the virus and its long term impact on babies & pregnant women.
I don't need the consumer spending and we're still seeing the friends and family we want.
We both work full time from home as the office doesn't exist anymore. I've actually enjoyed the work life balance. We've both agreed that once baby is here, fit and healthy, we'll start easing into 'new normal'.
I couldn't care less what people think of our current routine. We exercise more than ever before and walk the dogs as before. We're lucky as we live in the middle of no where.
It might sound extreme
Not really. Pretty much exactly what we're doing. The riskiest thing I've done is sit in a couple of pub gardens on breezy days. Mail gets left a couple of days unless the contents can be tipped out and the packaging ditched.
I think you can bring your shopping in to give it wipe down, though. The theoretical risk of surface contamination does not include a risk of airborne transmission. Just wipe down your surfaces after you've finished and wash your hands.
Like you, I couldn't care less if people are scoffing at our routines. We have two potentially vulnerable people in the household so everything is geared towards either not getting it at all, or at least making sure that potential viral load is as low as it can be.
When the kids head back, the emphasis turns to increasing ventilation inside the house, getting them to change out of their clothes on return and washing them. Probably won't make a difference to whether we catch it, but might reduce severity if viral load is reduced.
but there are alternative views that should be heard.
This is all going a bit brexity though….agree with us or we’ll all gang up and shout at you. Dismissing anyone with another view as a moron who’s just happy because McDonalds is open again is not they way to persuade and convince. Whether you happen to be right or not.
Not disagreeing but reducing the argument to this level is not going to win people over. Especially when we speak elsewhere about not following rules we disagree with.
The whole Brexit situation has shown that entrenched views don’t become less entrenched by simply shouting ‘YOU’RE WRONG! YOU ARE A DICK!’ ever more loudly. Even if they are.
Thanks @theotherjonv for your level-headed posts and do hope that others will take note. As someone who has polar opposite views to the overwhelming majority of those who've posted on this topic and also as someone who voted for Brexit for which I inevitably received flack, I'm not prepared to waste my precious little energy on defending my considered decisions.
There's far too much intolerance on here, the worst it's ever been in my dozen years or so as a Forum user. Will leave it there.
c_g - agree, its a shame.
Am i still following CV19 advice:
WFH except in situations where its not possible, once or twice a week i have to attend, i follow the one way systems, i use the hand sanitiser, i mask up in and out.
Social Distancing, probably bending the advice particularly the 'maximum number of households, this applies to social rides, pub gardens (outside) and its broadly the same extended group each time, so a large bubble? I think the only socialising indoors was with the FiL/MiL when we visited them two weeks ago - they have been isolated since march, we did offer to camp in their garden if they were concerned.
Ju Jitsu, binned (for some time to come i expect), my parents, ive only spoken to my mum through the closed conservatory door, less than half a dozen times since march (their rules, not mine), seen my 9yo niece twice since march, both outside
still my personal opinion is its unnecessary for the most part - but its not always my opinions that count
im intrigued in the proposed transmission route(s) which leads folk to clean deliverys and/or leave them outside
im intrigued in the proposed transmission route(s) which leads folk to clean deliverys and/or leave them outside
Pretty unlikely, but your shopping has been handled by a few people in the previous few hours before it arrives on your doorstep. Covid can persist on cardboard (up to 24 hours) for a relatively short space of time, on plastics for longer, days, potentially.
Although there are very few cases in my town, the towns just down the road have only just come out of 'special measures', so while the chances of a Tesco employee being asymptomatically infectious are small, but not vanishingly so.
Anyhow, it takes 10 minutes of my day, so not something that's 'ruining my life', to coin a phrase.
ok, thanks - i did understand then
personally i think its in the "vanishingly small risk" and would probably only change that view if i really felt that the driver, packer, postie etc 'likely' had it
im not criticising anyone, its your health, your choice....i eat fruit without washing it
.i eat fruit without washing it
Burn him!
i eat fruit without washing it
But do you wash your hands first?
Sorry - slightly trite and silly reply, but the point is that a few changes that everyone makes can make a huge difference.
I've been trying to quarantine parcels, but I forgotten a couple of times too. Has this made SOME difference to the risk to me? Yes. Has it made MUCH difference? On average, probably not.
Yeh, very low risk, like most things right now. I don't believe it was quite so low at the point when infection rates locally were much higher back in April/May, and I've just kept on doing it, in the expectation that rates are going to rise again anyway once the schools are back. Then again, once the schools are back, a bit of shopping is going to be the least of my worries.
if i really felt that the driver, packer, postie etc ‘likely’ had it
Stop the testing programme… it’s a waste of money… give this guy a quick glance at anyone and everyone to see if they’re “likely” to have it. I accept that this approach may not scale very well… but it should pay him well.
dannyh - if you mean do i wash my hands immediately before i eat the fruit, no. If i grab a banana right now, the last time i washed my hands was about 2hrs ago after i popped out for a cuppa and a rollie...
kelvin - apols, i didnt want to write the whole essay, you are right, I cannot "SEE" if someone has the virus but then i did say "if i really felt....." its a personal assessment.
local infection rates are very very low, im running the risk that the postie has the/a virus and is transmitting it asymptomatically.
im also running the risk that 'someone' in the supermarket licked the bananas....
ok, so nobody washes bananas, but i dont wash the grapefruit either 🙂
@cokie
Member
Expecting our first child in a couple months
Just wanted to say congratulations. I became a grandad days before lockdown began and it was a big worry but glad to say all went well.
Only held him the day of his birth as no matter what bubbles are allowed im not risking passing it on to my mother so I have zero contact with anyone, even my other half whom I don't live with. Spent socially distanced days (well, few hours) out with son, his partner and baby though and I'll spoil him when all this is over.😃
Pretty unlikely, but your shopping has been handled by a few people in the previous few hours before it arrives on your doorstep.
Order your groceries from Ocado or Morrisons, the bags are packed by Robots in a freezing cold warehouse and put in crates and then cages to be rolled into the wagon, and then into the delivery vans. So nobody touches the actual shopping items at all.
Minimal risk of any contamination from anyone touching anything other than the driver carrying the crate the bags are hung in on the way to your door.
I find life busy and confusing enough without having to constantly tailor my covid countermeasures to whether Joris or anyone else wants Pret a Manger to survive one minute or everyone (except Dominic Cumstains) to become a hermit the next.
Sensible precautions are not 'ruining' my life. Occasionally forgetting is not something I then beat myself up about for days, either. Just a 'doh' and try to remember next time.
A few weeks ago I ended up doing a totally unnecessary round trip when I would rather have been doing something else. I was tasked with picking up some bits from a shop as part of a trip out for something else. I forgot to take a mask. Sure, I could have shopped without a mask and grunted "I'm exempt" like I have seen others do. There is no real way to check if you are awkward enough. But I didn't. I went home and got a mask.
I haven't forgotten since, though. That's learning, is that....
the bags are packed by Robots in a freezing cold warehouse and put in crates and then cages to be rolled into the wagon,
So basically packed by Bender, delivered by Fry?
The freezing cold warehouse is not helping, be better if the warehouse was really hot (but maybe not for the food!)
The freezing cold warehouse is not helping..
No, that was more of a memory from spending a very uncomfortable couple of hours in there rather than an Anti Covid element to be fair.
The freezing cold warehouse is not helping, be better if the warehouse was really hot (but maybe not for the food!)
It would have been better if Joris had stayed in there, whatever the temperature.
There’s far too much intolerance on here, the worst it’s ever been in my dozen years or so as a Forum user. Will leave it there.
If you take actions and make decisions that adversely affect folks lives, livelihood and health then expect to get called out for it - especially if you're not even prepared to defend those decisions. Real life isn't some BBC panel show where they have to have climate change deniers on just to "balance" the discussion regardless of the science.
It'a not about "intolerance" but rather this is a singular situation where opinion - yours, mine, anyone else's - is irrelevant.
Because this is the issue with conspiracy theories / alternative therapies / whatever. In and of itself it's harmless, the Flat Earth brigade or the moon landing deniers are bonkers but they're not hurting anyone and it gives them a hobby / community / sense of being "in the know" so fair play, let them crack on. It's when this line of thinking actually supplants facts, vulnerable people start rejecting chemotherapy in favour of vitamin supplements and big groups of people organise raves as a 'sticking it to the man' protest, that the stakes suddenly become literally life and death.
This is not an "opinions" or "beliefs" argument. It's taking small and sensible safety precautions even if you think that the entire thing is fictional, because if you're right then big whoop you've had to wash your hands a bit more, if you're wrong then many more people will get very sick and maybe even die.
Worth the gamble?
sorry Cougar, i disagree.
a huge amount of whats discussed in this, the eleventeen* other CV19 threads or similarly in Brexit threads is opinion, its stw users interpretation of governmant (devolved or otherwise) guidelines which were based (apparently) on scientific evidence.
fact is, the science has been playing catch up since January and continues to do so
government guidelines are fast changing and sometimes immediately contradictory, which then means that all we are dealing with here are opinions and beliefs.
^^ someone up there believes you have to quarantine your shopping, my opinion is that i can buy from the supermarket and eat it. (im not dead, he/she hasnt starved, we are both winning - and neither of us is printing leaflets enforcing our views on others)
the points made on the last page, that you shouldnt result to insults to try to 'win' the argument still stand.
*great album if a little raw
its a personal assessment
Based on what? You know zero about the people delivering to you, what are you using to assess if someone might be carrying the virus… just a gut hunch?
im not dead
Coronavirus isn’t going to kill you, or me… not being involved in transmission isn’t about avoiding our own early deaths.
I’m not prepared to waste my precious little energy on defending my considered decisions.
@c_g Curious to know what the considerations were based on ...
Worth the gamble?
It is a sort of Game Theory.
Is it easier to 'gamble' when it is someone else's chips? When that person probably doesn't even know you are gambling with their chips? When, even if they did catch it and died, there is no way it could ever be pinned conclusively on you?
What is more important? Getting out of following a few fairly non-life-ruining precautions or risking someone else's life?
I guess it will make a fascinating case study into the character of individuals at some point in the future.
Quarantining food/deliveries... washing hands... wearing a mask.... All little things that take very little time and money even if you consider some of it "over the top".
Basically doing things like the above or being ultra, ultra careful does ZERO harm to the person themselves or anyone else.
Going the other way absolutely DOES do harm.
kelvin - actually i do know most if not all the delivery drivers to the village. my personal assessment is based on the numbers of infections in the area.
granted that picture was potentially unreliable back in march, april... but now that testing is actually happening, im confident that the 10 local cases are very unlikely to include Martin (postie)
its truer to say you know zero about me or my circumstances
the numbers of infections in the area
All your delivery drivers live in your area?
Only deliver to your area?
Haven’t spent time outside your area?
Interesting…
a huge amount of whats discussed in this, the eleventeen* other CV19 threads or similarly in Brexit threads is opinion, its stw users interpretation of governmant (devolved or otherwise) guidelines which were based (apparently) on scientific evidence.
On the Brexit thread point:
Who keeps on being proved right by events?
On covid:
Is it worth the risk just to be able to say afterwards 'I told you so'?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUoT5AxFpRs
I just got reminded that there's one covid rule I've never followed and never will. Social distance, no bother. Masks, got it. Don't stroke that dog? Unpossible.
of course there is the % chance that the temp, wide roaming asymptomatic delivery driver manages to put the virus on the envelope and i might get it when i open it with my teeth.
course then we are into viral load.
but then posibly i become asymptomatic and pass it across a pub garden table to a friend who then kills his mum.
we are still in vanishingly small territory.
and sorry dannyh, i have little intention of blindly following the CV19 rules particularly where they appear dreamt up by the paranoid furloughed masses.
the paranoid furloughed masses
Oh, you are one of ‘those’ people. Got it. You’ll be 100% confident that you think for yourself as well.
Oh, you are one of ‘those’ people.
Seems so. Funnily enough it never takes that long....
Got it.
That's unlucky. Might have been a 'special' and 'against the tide*' thinker that gave it you.
*Only when tide is going in a direction that is mildly inconvenient on a personal level, obviously.
You’ll be 100% confident that you think for yourself as well.
They always are.
🙄
Going the other way absolutely MIGHT do harm.
Fixed it for you
Fixed it for you
I'm a pretty experienced driver and cautious driver. I reckon I could get home safely with no injury to myself or others 19 times out 20 if I was over the drink-drive limit by 50%.
Should I give it a try?
paranoid furloughed masses
I was not furloughed at any point. I took a pay cut and ended up working longer hours. I am still working those longer hours.
But I was (and am) able to work from home.
Should I feel privileged or exploited?
Here was little old me thinking I only had a pandemic to worry about. Now I am so confused about whether I have been taking the piss or whether I have been exploited.
I might go shopping without a mask right now, just to stick it to the man.
as someone who voted for Brexit for which I inevitably received flack, I’m not prepared to waste my precious little energy on defending my considered decisions.
There’s far too much intolerance on here, the worst it’s ever been in my dozen years or so as a Forum user. Will leave it there
Cinnamon Girl, you continually waste energy on here recommending Dr Myhill and linking to caldwell lyme sites, both of which are less than scientific in their approach. There is a difference between intolerance and not tolerating utter rubbish.
Ahem...
'Flak'.
No 'c'.
Unless this makes me a pedantic 'c', of course.
sorry Cougar, i disagree.
And as I said, that's irrelevant. Disagree all you like, it changes nothing.
fact is, the science has been playing catch up since January and continues to do so
government guidelines are fast changing and sometimes immediately contradictory, which then means that all we are dealing with here are opinions and beliefs.
Of course. The government has been a shambles, what else is new. But the "science" is broadly in agreement globally as time goes on. It's a process of constant revision, that's how science works. They're not just making things up for the lols.
I have yet to see any "science" which suggests that a great way to prevent the spread of the disease is to steadfastly refuse to wear a mask and organise large social gatherings just to be contrary.
At worst wearing a mask in public is a minor inconvenience and might not make any difference at all; yet at best you wearing one could save hundreds of lives.
the points made on the last page, that you shouldnt result to insults to try to ‘win’ the argument still stand.
No arguments here, though it's difficult sometimes.
I have yet to see any “science” which suggests that a great way to prevent the spread of the disease is to steadfastly refuse to wear a mask and organise large social gatherings just to be contrary.
There will be some somewhere, no doubt.
But there is probably some 'science' out there that says President Kennedy was not shot at all, just stung by several very aggressive bees.
If people are determined to be contrary just for the hell if it, or to 'prove' something to themselves or others, then they will.
Deliberately swimming against the tide for no good reason gets you noticed, after all.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that while the immediate risk on a personal level is very low, expand that out to 70 million people on a densely populated island and if everyone doesn't bother then the virus could spread exponentially.
It's also a very low risk of something that could potentially ruin your life or kill you, or both. And all you are being asked to do is wear a mask occasionally and spend more time with your family to mitigate this, but this is apparently too much for some people to bear.
It's especially weird on a forum where presumably people enjoy the great outdoors, which you can still do pretty much without any restrictions.
and sorry dannyh, i have little intention of blindly following the CV19 rules particularly where they appear dreamt up by the paranoid furloughed masses.
So how many extra deaths are you prepared to have for your willingness to ignore guidelines, rules and laws?
C_G if you still think voting for brexit because you wanted to give cameron a bloody nose was a valid choice i'm afraid you're always going to cop some flak for that and TBH given the vast impending fallout of that vote you've got it coming. play the victim all you want.
So how many extra deaths are you prepared to have for your willingness to ignore guidelines, rules and laws?
I guess that would depend on how 'close to home' those deaths are.
Too close and it will probably be someone else's fault and he/she will 'demand answers'.
So how many extra deaths are you prepared to have for your willingness to ignore guidelines, rules and laws?
I will point out that many of you drive at 80mph on the motorway ...just saying
C_G if you still think voting for brexit because you wanted to give cameron a bloody nose
Cameron is set for life. Always was, always will be. I think he's probably over it now.
Every ****er else.... not so much.
Even by Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf's standards that is a heck of a lot of collateral damage.
But this isn't a Brexit thread...
(Yes, that is intentional irony).
I will point out that many of you drive at 80mph on the motorway …just saying
How do you know?