[Closed] introducing the Ed Milibandatron 5000

This was posted last week. And 2 years ago when it happened

Its easy to mock, but I'm looking forward to Ed seizing the political initiative today, and delivering a speech to stir the soul, and lift the spirit, mapping out a bold vision for the future of the nation, as he marches us to the sunny uplands of equality, social justice, and a fairer society, a true meritocracy

Oh... wait... hang on a minute... he's going to deliver a timid, uninspiring load of old waffle, so as not to upset his city and corporate paymasters, that absolutely fails to address any of the countries problems, and signal that whatever happens, the same old failed neo liberal consensus just carries on unchallenged. Yawn.

**** off Ed!

[img] [/img]

Can't imagine Ed Balls announcing an effective cut on child benefit will be too helpful for him either. 🙂

It's a sad reflection of how news media and politics works that you know you have to opportunity to insert one 10-second soundbite onto every BBC bulletin, so you are forced to repeat it robotically to make sure your 'line' sees the light of day.

Ed could make anything look clumsy and forced, though. The trick is to chat away non-stop but leave no pauses after the lines you don't want them to use.

Also looking forward to his big [s]sixth-form debating society[/s] conference moment :-).

I thought the mansion-tax-for-NHS-funding stunt was the most blatant and cynical vote-buying I've seen for a while.

Aside from the fact that it would be a nightmare to actually enforce and that no one seems to have calculated what the likely revenue and costs would be, it seems to pander to the worst sort of small-minded envy - the thinking that says, "sod trying to bake a bigger cake, let's just squabble about who gets what out of the crumbs we have".

The sort of man who needs to send in that utter f***wit Gordon Brown to inject a bit of pizazz and charisma into the fight for the Union is the ideal Labour leader for me.

@ digga:

That's spot on. The problem has been that people are always happy to believe in the Labour Party's fairy story about the free money tree. The NHS provides "free" service, you can get "free" housing, "free" school meals and so on which is, of course, complete nonsense.

I sense that former believers in this nonsense are waking up to that fact that Keynsian economics don't work.

Grow the pie. Vote for a party that enables that, which at the moment (whether you like it or not), is best fitted by the Tories although far from perfectly...

I will see your Milibot and raise you [url= ]Johann Lamont[/url]

Just the Gal to inspire a new band of Scots Labour voters.

Private Frazer voice >>>"We are doomed"

[i]Grow the pie.[/i]

The biggest problem I can see with public services is that by the time there's a big enough pie to pay for them at the tax rate people seem to want either Labour or the Tories will have sold off, contracted out, decided it's not worth doing anymore or otherwise destroyed the very things that that the tax was supposed to pay for.

Surely the one thing that the past 10 years has shown is that the pie tin is a fixed size?

'Grow the pie' as a reason to vote for someone is about as facile an argument as you can make. It sounds like something straight out of the Thick of It

[img] [/img]

I agree with Woppit, lesser of the evils, though my view is still unclear as to which that is. Like a forum big hitters spat, extreme headlines on all sides, when common sense goes out the window.

Cranberry made me laugh with his post!

Wow are people still claiming that trickle-down economics is actually a thing? Grow the pie! 😆

Lifer - Member
Surely the one thing that the past 10 years has shown is that the pie tin is a fixed size?

'Grow the pie' as a reason to vote for someone is about as facile an argument as you can make. It sounds like something straight out of the Thick of It

There are a lot of very good ways to look at GDP growth and wealth (see Luwig von Mises or Friedrich Hayek, or more recently and easier to read is Peter Schiff) and while I admit that focusing purely on "growth" is no, necessarily, the whole answer, it is not "blue sky thinking". Not like the Keynsian pretend-and-extend nonsense which is currently delivering ten years of stagnation.

Grow the pie

Grow the thing as big as you like it still only gets shared out among the fat cats who get fatter and fatter

Be grateful for getting a few scratty pie crumbs from underneath the table.

John Harris described Milliband and the present labour party perfectly

A Book Club who's political antennae don't pick up signals outside North London.

I don't know why they bother with the ridiculous charade of having the conference in Manchester. To try and pretend for a few days that they know where the north is? It must be a scary and disorientating experience for the poor little lambs. * off back to Islington you patronising Tory-lite *s!

grum - Member
Be grateful for getting a few scratty pie crumbs from underneath the table.

No society, empire or political system - even uber-Socialist USSR - could ever manager to deliver anything markedly better than current western standards and most were a whole deal worse for those at the bottom.

Whether we acknowledge it or not, we're all competing daily in a global market place and sadly there are no rules to say we - the west, or the UK - are entitled to any particular share of global wealth.

Mr Woppit - Member

I sense that former believers in this nonsense are waking up to that fact that Keynsian economics don't work.

Keynsian economics have never been tried.

in summary: tax and save during the 'good' times, cut taxes and spend (borrowing if needed) during the bad times.

we've never tried the 'tax and save' part.

@ahwiles
To an extent, you're right, all we've seen is neo-Keynsianism, a.k.a. Harvard-Keynsianism.

No society, empire or political system - even uber-Socialist USSR - could ever manager to deliver anything markedly better than current western standards and most were a whole deal worse for those at the bottom.

Some Scandanavian countries seem to manage a bit better.

Thanks Binners, the Dwayne Dibley thing finally nails him down for me!

"Grow the pie"

In the 21st century this cannot be the only goal, it is how you grow the pie that matters.

Since the 70s we have given the trickle down Thatcher/Regan neoliberal economic model a good go and it has failed. While western economies have grown, most of this growth has only gone to the wealthiest top few percent, at the same time earnings for those on low and middle incomes has barely kept up with inflation, massively increasing economic inequality. In direct contrast to the real term post war income increases for low and middle income earners.

This post 70s growth has also been driven by unsustainable deregulation of financial services which created a false economy. The deregulation of financial services also meant easier access to credit which has been used to supplement low wages, this indebtedness has further increased the movement of wealth from those on lower incomes to the wealthiest few.

The Clinton Whitehouse in the US and New Labour in the UK also failed to break the Thatcher/Regan political consensus. Instead they introduced sticking plaster policies such as tax credits that in affect subsidised employers to underpay workers in our economy. At least New Labour introduced the minimum wage but that was simply not enough.

We have 13 million people in relative poverty and 60% of those are from working families.

62% of children living in poverty have at least one parent in work.

Over 90% of new housing benefit claimants are in work.

Clearly we have a broken socio-economic model, working people cannot afford decent lives without state subsidy. It is time for us to move forward and forge a new political consensus. We need to increase wages not state subsidies, we need to build enough social and affordable houses not pile billions into the pockets of private landlords and developers, we need publicly owned independently ran essential services not private monopolies.

fr0sty125 - Member
"Grow the pie"

In the 21st century this cannot be the only goal, it is how you grow the pie that matters.

fr0sty125 - Member

We have 13 million people in relative poverty and 60% of those are from working families.

fr0sty125 - Member

Clearly we have a broken socio-economic model, working people cannot afford decent lives without state subsidy.

As an aside, I've no idea why we set a minimum wage and then remove part of it in tax.

grahamg - Member

Thanks Binners, the Dwayne Dibley thing finally nails him down for me!

people would vote for Dibley if he had some good policies...

No Ed, a mansion tax is not a good policy.

Agreed. In very simple terms 'we' - us and our governments - are spending not only beyond our means but also those of future generations and it cannot continue.

Yes, because it's important that we make sure that an ever-increasing share of all the available wealth goes into the hands of a tiny minority. Seems the best way of doing things.

Would love to see them (or anyone actually) announce that they're going to overhaul the way we tax companies, so that if they do business in the UK, they actually pay tax on it, rather than the avoidance that goes on just now. Would surely be a vote winner.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/21/miliband-memo-britain-social-order-bankrupt ]What Milliband should be saying, but most definitely won't[/url]

Yes, because it's important that we make sure that an ever-increasing share of all the available wealth goes into the hands of a tiny minority. Seems the best way of doing things.

Depends what they do with it?

I read somewhere that after accounting for overheads etc, Bill Gates has given far more money to poor people than Oxfam...

ninfan - Member
Depends what they do with it?

I read somewhere that after accounting for overheads etc, Bill Gates has given far more money to poor people than Oxfam...

**** me backwards! Because Victorian philanthropy is the social progression we need....

and Bill Gates is a great example of typical billionaire behaviour...

binners - Member

What Milliband should be saying, but most definitely won't

chuff me, even the Grauniad hates Ed and Ed.

digga - Member

grum - Member
Be grateful for getting a few scratty pie crumbs from underneath the table.

Call me a cynic, but I reckon that's the best most of us can ever hope for...

....and more than some deserve

The ability to misapply Keynesian and neo-liberal is breath taking. Pity the speech wasn't.

To his credit at least balls has the balls to admit that he forgot his Keynesian teaching.

What speech?

Oops foretelling and misreading the BBC website over lunch - pawn to e6 😳

I thought the mansion-tax-for-NHS-funding stunt was the most blatant and cynical vote-buying I've seen for a while.

Yes, heaven forfend that the wealthy pay a tiny bit more tax in order to provide essential public services.

The rich paying more tax will not ensure essential public services.

Which public services would you say are essential, BTW? Just out of interest.

ahwiles - Member
and Bill Gates is a great example of typical billionaire behaviour...

binners - Member
What Milliband should be saying, but most definitely won't

chuff me, even the Grauniad hates Ed and Ed

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jul/01/ed-miliband-interviewer-shame-strike-soundbites

ransos - Member
Yes, heaven forfend that the wealthy pay a tiny bit more tax in order to provide essential public services.

The rich paying more tax will not ensure essential public services.

No society, empire or political system - even uber-Socialist USSR - could ever manager to deliver anything markedly better than current western standards

Cuba has better literacy rates than us for example.

The rich paying more tax will not ensure essential public services.

Well turning Britain into a [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27187398 ]tax haven[/url] most certainly won't! But at least if the Rich paid the same level of tax as the little people, which they presently don't, and multinationals trading here paid any tax at all (other than the odd token gesture) there might be some degree of fairness to proceedings.

Do I expect Millibean to address this gross injustice? Of course not! The labour party are as complicit in this as the Tories, and just as keen to give corporate lobbyists everything they ask for, and more

Junkyard - lazarus

Cuba has better literacy rates than us for example

[i]Do I expect Millibean to address this gross injustice?[/i]

Someone asked him about this once;

[img] [/img]

The rich paying more tax does not require higher marginal tax rates or wealth taxes.

We know what happens (broadly) when MRT moves to 50p. Do people deliberately forget the lessons of history? At least this time, labour are announcing this upfront rather than a "scorched earth policy this time."

"Fairness", eh?

Do you mean that everybody should be more "equal"?

"Communism will never work because people like to own stuff."

He's stuck in a "friends" loop.

digga - Member

Well done for mastering your Ladybird book of Socialist retorts and missing my point about net tax take entirely.

Sorry, I must doff my cap to the one person who still thinks trickle-down actually works, and supposes that the reason we're in this mess is down to the Keynesian model we haven't tried.

Are we going to have instruction on Laffer curves next?

Mr Woppit - Member

"Fairness", eh?

Do you mean that everybody should be more "equal"?

"Communism will never work because people like to own stuff."

yes, because taxation equality = communism.

Mr Woppit - Member
"Fairness", eh?

Do you mean that everybody should be more "equal"?

"Communism will never work because people like to own stuff."

I guess the difference between Socialism and Communism passed you by, a fan of the Tea Party by any chance?

Reading some of this stuff - a litany of the economics of envy and beggar-thy-neighbour - it won't surprise me when a halfwit like Balls is back in charge of the Treasury.

[i]a fan of the Tea Party by any chance? [/i]

He's Troll Party through and through, is MrWoppit. Motto 'No bridge too far'. 😉

a litany of the economics of envy

Wanting a reasonably balanced and fair society with decent public services rather than living in an oligarchy = being a normal, unselfish person. I has literally nothing to do with envy.

grum - Member
a litany of the economics of envy
Wanting a reasonably balanced and fair society with decent public services rather than living in an oligarchy = being a normal, unselfish person. I has literally nothing to do with envy.

Furthermore, the dangerous extension of all of that is people being inculcated with the belief that the unaffordable is not only affordable, but their birthright.

I would disagree. I think there is a lot of "envy". I also don't think that many people would not want a fairer society with decent public services - it's just that when push comes to shove no one really wants to pay for it. 65" LCD TVs + additional consumerist trinkets seem to trump social welfare for most. And in general the richer people already pay more tax than the poor people as the tax system here is progressive. The more you earn, the more you pay. I also accept that there are a large number of wealthy people who actively minimise the tax they pay through the various legal instruments to do so. It has been said that if everyone paid the correct amount of tax at the current rates then we would have enough to fund the decent public services that everyone apparently craves. However I cannot vouch for the authenticity or validity of that remark.

digga - Member
It does not, but it is latched onto and hi-jacked by those who would rather, if they can't keep up with the Joneses, to see them dragged down to their own level.

A cynical view that makes you sound like Thatcher.

digga - Member
Furthermore, the dangerous extension of all of that is people being inculcated with the belief that the unaffordable is not only affordable, but their birthright.

That's what the Tories were saying in 1946 about the NHS when the country was virtually bankrupt. Guess what? It turns out that we could afford it and I hope those now born in the UK do recognise it as their birthright thanks to social progression.

It does not, but it is latched onto and hi-jacked by those who would rather, if they can't keep up with the Joneses, to see them dragged down to their own level.

Furthermore, the dangerous extension of all of that is people being inculcated with the belief that the unaffordable is not only affordable, but their birthright.

[img] [/img]

Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

According to Marx, an imperfect form of social ownership on the way to Communism after the death of Capitalism.

Also wouldn't work. There'd be so much arguing that nothing would get built, made and sold to anybody. A bit like pre-Thatcher Britain...

if they can't keep up with the Joneses, to see them dragged down to their own level.

TBH it speaks volumes of the system that you cannot defend it you can only attack those who suggest we distribute things a little more evenly
No parent teaches there child to do anything other than share fairly, we dont tell them off for being envious when they want fairness nor accuse them of trying to drag others down either.
Why not explain why your own view is the correct one rather than name call and incorrectly explain others views

"Yes, heaven forfend that the wealthy pay a tiny bit more tax in order to provide essential public services."

The top 1% earners pay a third of all income tax, and the top 10% (those earning more than £42K a year) now pay 58% of all income tax. The contribution from the top 1% increased from 22.2% in 2000 to 27.7% in 2012.

So in the spirit of "we're all in this together" how about everyone earning less than £42K paying a bit more to the essential public services that we all agree need more money - especially those who can buy a decent sized house without even meeting the stamp duty threshold?

There was a recent survey on whether people would rather pay more tax or see nhs services streamlined. The majority said streamline the nhs, not raise taxes. Interesting.

Having cross party control of the nhs so it didn't get reorganised every 5-10 years with each new government 'improving' it would be a huge start.

Best description of Ed Milliband by Bill Bailey

He's like a plastic bag stuck up a tree, no one knows how it got there and no one is arsed to get it down.

there was a recent survey that said that when people claimed there was a recent survey they should cite the survey.

cite the survey as it passed me by completely

DTI 😉

So poor old eds got his work cut out now. No doubt there will be a protest sweaty vote, conversely the English will expect a robust response, his obviously going to piss off business and wealth creators, so that leaves......oops

On top of that the economy is doing better than expected. Good for him if he pulls this one off. Polls show it's his to lose and he has made a good start there.

Good for him if he pulls this one off. Polls show it's his to lose and he has made a good start there.

Labour's problem is who will replace him? He's likely to do a Kinnock

Andy Burnham was supposed to be positioning himself for the leadership but after his car crash interview on R4 tonight he's got two hope's (despite having a reasonably good idea in merging health and social care to talk about)

[quote=big_n_daft said] his car crash interview on R4 tonight

Whadda happened ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04hvy0n

starts at 13:30

Qu 1. are the US air strikes in Syria legal?

Funnily enough Milliband stood up against Cameron in the commons and smacked down Cameron's bomb Assad and aid the rebels plan last august

Today Cameron stands up and says the rebels are evil, want to kill us and we need to bomb them.....

I had to...

Funnily enough Milliband stood up against Cameron in the commons and smacked down Cameron's bomb Assad and aid the rebels plan last august

Today Cameron stands up and says the rebels are evil, want to kill us and we need to bomb them.....

and Miliband fully supports the bombing

there was a recent survey that said that when people claimed there was a recent survey they should cite the survey.

Linky please.

Corporations are the problem, they need to pay a higher percentage of the overall tax income.

all the burden is on personal tax and NI.

its a joke the corporations are completely running rings around governments

Did anyone else hear Eddie Mair on R4 PM run rings around Andy Burnham?

kimbers - Member
Funnily enough Milliband stood up against Cameron in the commons and smacked down Cameron's bomb Assad and aid the rebels plan last august

Today Cameron stands up and says the rebels are evil, want to kill us and we need to bomb them.....

You know the situation is not that simple.

big_n_daft - Member
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04hvy0n

starts at 13:30

Qu 1. are the US air strikes in Syria legal?

Unfortunately the briefings have not been the best today.

granted it is complicated but the fact remains CMD wanted to bomb Assad and now he wants to bomb those Assad is fighting- it some reversal of position however you wish to spin it.

Burnham was right ...... he is not an expert 😉

he got a kicking there overall
Is their personal animosity between these two?
Will there be now?

Is their personal animosity between these two?

I don't know, it's a shame that the same quality of questioning wasn't used in the referendum

I wouldnt say its a reversal, i reckon they still want to bomb assad and IS.
they just need to sort IS first as they are more visual in their killing.

You can spin it how you like but I think most folk will consider changing which side you bomb in a civil war as a reversal of policy

Of course having 'bombed IS into submission' there's no reason why the US won't continue and bomb Assad until their plan for the region is forfilled.

As for Miliband; I wonder if elements in his party aren't considering a short, sharp coup shortly after the conference is over?

Does the 6000 series have a better memory bank ?

[i]Corporations are the problem, they need to pay a higher percentage of the overall tax income.
[b]all the burden is on personal tax and NI.[/b]
its a joke the corporations are completely running rings around governments [/i]
Priceless ! I'd ask if anyone else sees the irony in this remark, but most probably wouldn't admit it, even if they have.
😆

[i]Did anyone else hear Eddie Mair on R4 PM run rings around Andy Burnham? [/i]
Aye, I listened as it was aired, quite revealing. He didn't have a clue, much like Labour really.
Burnham brought his humilitaion, upon himself, with his attempt at conveying indigantion when asked questions that he really didn't have sensible answers for.
Perhaps someone should have suggested to Mr Burnham that if he's going to be interviewed on R4, claiming that he can't possibly know how things will workout in 5 years time, after hearing his leader's plan for the next 10 years. That he's going to look like a door handle.

[i]You can spin it how you like but I think most folk will consider changing which side you bomb in a civil war as a reversal of policy[/i]
Crude attempt to divert the discussion/thread. However, that's no crisis either. These threads always go the same way. The lefties, full of envy and a fundamentally misplaced sense of [i]fairness[/i] and of how society [b]should[/b] be, bleeting. Only leads to posting of leftist diatribe until all parties are distracted by another thread.
You lot should get out on your bikes more and find the driver of Dez's white BMW.
And while you're doing this. Perhaps you can take time to contemplate the true reason for Ed's failure to include the budget deficit and immigration, for comment in his speech....
Personally ? Ed is undermined from within his own party and his speech was one written for the core vote. The core left have no further regard for the economy than to spend everything they can, inflate the public sector, after which someone can leave a post-it note joking about how there's no money left in the treasury. In this respect, Ed's speech was spot on, being remembered for not mentioning the two headline issues for a lot of UK voters, the Budget deficit and immigration.

[b]GO ED ![/b]
😀

I'm off too, now.
😀

Ed's speech was spot on, being remembered for not mentioning the two headline issues for a lot of UK voters, the Budget deficit and immigration.

GO ED !

I'm off too, now.

Quite dire I agree, I really wish we'd chosen the other brother. I get emails and tweets from the party & they really are abysmal - as shallow as condensation.

No vision, just further bloating of the public sector.