[Closed] Intolerance and Vitriol - you know who you are

And on the hand wringing "can't we all just be friends side".......

Where else do you see this – oh yes on the extreme with Daesh (or whatever they wish to be known as), or radical preachers of whatever religion –

Some good points there Sui. I've been shocked by some of the Forumites, people who I'd previously thought were decent human beings have turned into downright nasty individuals.

Horrible. 😐

Some good points. It was a free vote and folk voted as they felt. A good chunk of my circle voted out, possibly more than voted remain. Will I fall out with any of them? Probably not. I voted remain as I genuinely thought that was the best. Arguing with friends and colleagues about what's done is pointless. I am genuinely worried about the direction we will take when BJ and Pob take over though.

If I am angry with anyone it's Cameron. Jumping ship like the spineless cowardly bastard that he is causing more uncertainty when what we need are calm heads.

A lot of people have potentially had their futures shat on. They have every right to be cross.

Intolerance and Vitriol

That's going to be the name of the flat roofed pub I plan on opening.

No one knows IF their future has been shat on. That's the whole point - it could all turn out lovely and we should wait and see before going "off-on-one" at anybody else.

This is a democratic country if anyone doesn't like it they can leave 😀

(I voted REMAIN by the way)

A lot of people have potentially had their futures [s]shat on[/s] improved. They have every right to be [s]cross[/s] happy.

FTFY

(for balance!)

They have every right to be cross.

Nobody has a right to spout vitriol. There is a difference.

munrobiker - Member
A lot of people have potentially had their futures shat on. They have every right to be cross.

plenty of other topics covering the "facts", the point remains, at this time it's nothing more than uncertainty (as you pointed out). i'm not so sure "being cross" is a good excuse for what I've read on social media throughout this referendum.

edit - beaten to it by you lot with fast fingers!

Sui - Member - Any chance there is going to be a single post where there isn't some vitriol thrown around at people with different opinion

****ts

How hypocritical.

****ts
How hypocritical.

that was a comment i was quoting from other posts, not me abusing people..

A lot of people have potentially had their futures improved. They have every right to be happy.

I know you're trying to be light-hearted, the-muffin-man, but do you believe that? If so, in what way might people have just had their futures improved? I'm genuinely struggling to understand how voting to leave the EU will make an actual, positive difference to people's lives, as opposed to the actual, negative difference it can almost certainly make to others'.

people are ****s, you should lower your expectations and be disappointed a lot less.

It's nothing to do with expectations, it's all to do with poor behaviour.

If I am angry with anyone it's Cameron. Jumping ship like the spineless cowardly bastard that he is causing more uncertainty when what we need are calm heads.

I'm no fan of CMD, but seriously did he have a choice? He'd bet his (and Osbournes) political future on this, they no longer have legitimacy.. less than this has created leadership contests in the past, and it'd just be dragging it out to try and stay. He'd also already indicated he wouldn't stay past (next election? Can't remember, wasn't listening, as I said, not a huge fan), staying on as a lame duck does no one any favours.

We have two stock market linked endowments about to mature, a pension that will take a beating and a mortgage.
I have a child who will need care from the NHS for the rest of her life.
I work for a European company.

The future is looking a little shakier than it did this time last year.
Being “stiffed” by some people who don’t know why they did it other than they don’t like foreigners or the government is a little upsetting.

I’m not going to resort to name calling though. What is the point?

I know you're trying to be light-hearted, the-muffin-man, but do you believe that?

I'm either way really - I changed my mind many times during this debate and eventually voted Remain.

Some will win from this, some will lose. But that's life in general anyway.

The last financial crisis killed my family business off and I went bankrupt so I've seen all sides.

It's nothing to do with expectations, it's all to do with poor behaviour.

It's also actions and consequences.

You cannot expect the 75% of under 25's (and 55% of 25-50) to simply be quiet about the fact their future just got a whole lot more difficult.

So I'm supopsed to listen to this guy and say "Oh well, he has a right to his vote and his opinion, so no matter if it buggers up my life in some way"?

Really?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683029/man-votes-leave-twitter-adam-bbc

The last financial crisis killed my family business off and I went bankrupt so I've seen all sides.

So doesn't that make you a little more sympathetic to folk who may now be in that situation?

I'm oot.

Nobody has a right to spout vitriol. There is a difference.

I think you're misunderstanding what vitriol means. Ignoring the chemical science meaning, it really just means bitter criticism. I don't think that's at all misplaced. We've had an event of far reaching consequence and even those in the winning campaign have no idea what they're going to do now.

As for the mudslinging about uneducated, old and poor, the demographics of the leave voters are more firmly in those camps if you believe the polls (check the Guardian for an example). It's not rude to suggest the vote has been heavily changed by rhetoric from the leave campaign engaging voters who ordinarily don't bother (see Trump et al in the USA for further examples). Lies and half truths combined with scaremongering (the first one almost exclusively on behalf of the leave campaign) have caused huge damage to "togetherness" in the UK. Only time will tell if leaving the EU will be as damaging.

I must now declare my intolerance of wilful ignorance, British/English nationalism/jingoism, racial discrimination, scare-mongering, hypocrisy and prejudice.

Stupidity is slightly different, as the stupid may not be able to do anything about it.

*ts
elder generation ruining it for everyone else
stupid
racist
xenophobic
un-educated
ignorant masses
poor
lower class
daily mail readers
sun readers
guardian readers

Given the breakdown of the vote and the reaction to the result, that (with the exception of *ts) seems to be a pretty reasonable list...

Markie - Member

Given the breakdown of the vote and the reaction to the result, that (with the exception of ****ts) seems to be a pretty reasonable list...

Yes, I'd say so too.

cinnamon_girl - Member
I'm oot.

Apparently we're all oot.

the Guardian reader who voted leave

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/brexit-democracy-i-voted-leave-divisions-campaigns

****ts
elder generation ruining it for everyone else
stupid
racist
xenophobic
un-educated
ignorant masses
poor
lower class
daily mail readers
sun readers
guardian readers

is he in more than one category?

As an educated English man, interested in current affairs, with a rational outlook and of young(ish) years, I feel that my views and vote have been swamped by hordes of

elder generation ruining it for everyone else
stupid
racist
xenophobic
un-educated
ignorant masses
poor
lower class
daily mail readers
sun readers

spoiling my country and the rest of the EU for everybody else for the wrong reasons.

Given the breakdown of the vote and the reaction to the result, that (with the exception of ****ts) seems to be a pretty reasonable list...

Well it is extraordinary that people like yourself and Aristotle who obviously have such above average gifts were unable to persuade them of the merits of your arguments - maybe your arguments are not quite as strong as you think or maybe you didn't even try.

A lot of people have potentially had their futures shat on. They have every right to be cross.

Really can't argue with that.

who don’t know why they did it other than they don’t like foreigners

There's one word for that in the list. Call a spade a spade not a hand-held ferrous-bladed implement for digging holes.

mefty - Member

Well it is extraordinary that people like yourself and Aristotle who obviously have such above average gifts were unable to persuade them of the merits of your arguments - maybe your arguments are not quite as strong as you think or maybe you didn't even try.

It isn't that extraordinary really.

Very few people want detailed facts or explanations, they want simple and quick "solutions" to their perceived problems and will seize upon the slightest justification for their quickly-formed views.

Populism appeals to simple emotions.

Fear works.

What is interesting is that fear of losing jobs/money -a typically pretty rational fear- seems to have been over-shadowed by fear of "foreigners" (immigration, EU laws etc.) and some very misleading numbers about relatively small EU contributions in this referendum.

How many of the population would have been interested in or cared about the EU investment in scientific research, for example?

ps. I did what I could and surprised myself by persuading a few undecided people to vote to Remain.

good intentions OP, but now just another boring ranty thread.

im gonna hide in the bike room till it all blows over
#deletes social media apps

Any chance there is going to be a single post where there isn't some vitriol thrown around at people with different opinions?

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/can-we-have-some-happy-days-pictures-of-riding ]Riding bikes is good.[/url]

Well it is extraordinary that people like yourself and Aristotle who obviously have such above average gifts were unable to persuade them of the merits of your arguments - maybe your arguments are not quite as strong as you think or maybe you didn't even try.

Too late now, you can't blame your out vote on an unconvincing in campaign.

The FTSE100 lost £100billion in 100minutes this morning, or in 'shiny red bus with a slogan on it terms', Brexit did more damage to 100 companies in 1hour 40minutes than it would cost to be a member of the EU until 2036.

And you can't say we didn't warn you that it would happen.

Working in a cancer research lab, with UK (non commercial) science getting around 20% of its funding from the EU and working with a large number of Europeans, Im hearing a lot of the above

I think the problem is that its very very hard to see a rational explanation for voting leave, certainly from my perspective

CBA

maybe your arguments are not quite as strong as you think or maybe you didn't even try.

Maybe he just doesn't know that many people, so whatever he did wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

Why couldn't people have just stuck the original thread? There are 26 threads about the referendum on the front page! I'm going to post this on every thread 😆

Or maybe he just doesn't associate with many

****ts
elder generation ruining it for everyone else
stupid
racist
xenophobic
un-educated
ignorant masses
poor
lower class
daily mail readers
sun readers
guardian readers

kimbers - Member
Working in a cancer research lab, with UK (non commercial) science getting around 20% of its funding from the EU and working with a large number of Europeans, Im hearing a lot of the above

I think the problem is that its very very hard to see a rational explanation for voting leave, certainly from my perspective

This appears to be the case for most thinking/educated people.

There was no rational reason to vote leave.

Emotions will not buy a lot of food, though....

We have two stock market linked endowments about to mature, a pension that will take a beating and a mortgage.

Stock markets go up and down. They always have. Some people have made a killing this morning from a drop of 500 points on the FT, then a recovery of 250. And mortgage rates might go down yet!

I have a child who will need care from the NHS for the rest of her life.

Is the NHS based in Brussels? Struggling to see a cause and effect in that sentence. There's been more damage to the NHS from PFI deals in the last decade.

I work for a european company

You still do, I assume?

There's so much fusss over nothing. As yet, nothing has changed, the sun will come up tomorrow, it'll probably rain on sunday. Stop panicking until you know some facts.

My Grandad always used to say decimalisation was the worst thing that ever happened to this country, it was deal a blow it was still feeling in the 80's etc.

In 30 years you can say right or wrong. It's still too early to tell.

****ts
elder generation ruining it for everyone else
stupid
racist
xenophobic
un-educated
ignorant masses
poor
lower class
daily mail readers
sun readers
guardian readers

Don't forget the 'spineless cowardly bastard'!

Don't forget the 'spineless cowardly bastard'!

i was loosing track! - i'll add that though!

Speaking as a remainer - we need the weekend to vent. It's a huge blow to those of us who really want to be part of Europe and those like me who's livelyhood comes from working with EU countries on EU funded research.

If remain won we would be constantly getting it in the ear from the leave lot saying things would be better if we left.

As we are leaving we will now find out if they are right.

Personally I feel it is a bad thing but I really hope I will be proved wrong and if I am then I will be more than happy to accept as I was wrong. We are now all in this together, as much as I feel like leaving...

I think people have "back-lashed" because they've been failed by their government and because someone came along and gave them an easy answer.

I don't think people* are stupid but I do believe a huge number have been completely mislead. The problem with crowds is they're easy to manipulate. There are some stupid people, on both sides of the argument, there are some racists and bigots on both sides too, (I'd go so far as to say more of the latter on the leave side, but there will be plenty remainers who simply had enough vested interests that they voted with their wallets not their beliefs.) unfortunately these people are often the loudest ones with greatest momentum and the sensible are dragged along with them.

I'd very much like to believe that given the opportunity to sit and consider the whole thing in isolation people would have come to the same (my) conclusion but there is no such chance. It's okay to do X or Y when lots of people are doing, it makes it easy not to think about it.

So yes I think we've been sold up the river by stupid people, bigots and racists, most of them not the electorate but those leading the campaigns. They (both sides) gave us little but lies and fear and failed to (IMHO) explain what any of this actually meant to anyone. Not helped because every time either side made a valid point the other side simply said "you're wrong". Both sides ran their campaign like a parent telling a two year old "just because" unfortunately since people haven't the care to look further than that as they liked what they were told that worked. it's not stupidity, it's not too do with being poor, it's too do with believing you can make your life better by wishing it to be. That's not stupid it's just naive but it's positively encouraged by (not just) our government, we are promised all the benefits and none of the responsibility (which I think was the big whinge about EU migration).

*In honesty people are stupid, persons aren't, but in a decent sized group they develop a herd mentality.

Too late now, you can't blame your out vote on an unconvincing in campaign.

I voted in. But I completely share the OP's frustration, blaming the electorate is futile - I have posted such sentiments quite frequently - if you lose it is your failure to persuade, simple as that. But whatever the result it is hardly the end of the world.

OP..

[url= http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-24/leave-voter-disappointed-and-wishes-to-vote-remain/ ]I give you this[/url]

as an example of why at least a few of those 'insults' are probably quite accurate

people like this, who voted without any measure of common sense or comprehension of implications are going to make alot of peoples lives significantly harder...including their own and mine

Democracy at work. 51% of the population p*ssing on the dreams of the other 49%.

The vitriol here, in the office today, sections of the press and social media is depressing. Hopefully it'll calm down. I'm sure it'd be the same if it went the other way - doubtless there is a fdrum with a different demographic for whom the result was a massive positive.

it's too do with believing you can make your life better by wishing it to be

I've selected just this snippet from your patronising ramblings. (How many times does the word 'stupid' appear in it?)

Is your life going to be better for doing nothing; everything the same; no changes?

Or will taking a risk, throwing out the established system give an opportunity to make something better?

That was the opportunity presented. Most people have taken it. That's not wishing, that's acting.

Change!

It must be better, right?

Through socialisation and internalisation, the structures of society shape and construct the structures of our consciousness (an adapted P. Berger quote). Basically, the voter is not to blame. It is the structures of our society which created the result today. If you take umbrage, take it with the most powerful in our society and not the individual.

tpbiker - Member
OP..

I give you this

as an example of why at least a few of those 'insults' are probably quite accurate

people like this, who voted without any measure of common sense or comprehension of implications are going to make alot of peoples lives significantly harder...including their own and mine

Exactly.

people like this, who voted without any measure of common sense or comprehension of implications are going to make alot of peoples lives significantly harder...including their own and mine

There's doubtless a percentage but I think it's ironically narrow minded to cast the voting majority as being in some way deficient in intelligence, reason or logic. One of the reasons I believe that pollsters and the betting industry got it so arse-backwards is due to the Remain campaign trying to associate the leave vote with Nige and his loony chums. People said one thing in public and then did something very different.

Or maybe I'm wrong and the truly depressing reality is that the majority are (at various levels) closet racists (if you believe that's peoples driving reason, however misguided). Call me an optimist but that goes very much against my experience but...

woffle - Member
There's doubtless a percentage but I think it's ironically narrow minded to cast the voting majority as being in some way deficient in intelligence, reason or logic.

Wilful ignorance of the 'facts' and confirmation bias due to an emotionally reached decision based upon misleading information and long-held prejudice (not necessarily racial/national).

Ok, so why did they vote to leave then?

Really? You genuinely think it's as black and white (*pun alert) as all that?

no, I posted before I'd finished typing!

Well, I'll put my hand up regarding getting heated - I thought it was passion for staying in 😳

I have to say though, I have every respect for the views of Leave voters who had thought it through and concluded that leave was the best option - but there are a large number who haven't thought it through and have just voted on gut instinct, "had a punt" etc.

To a scientist with a vested interest and reasonably good knowledge of the benefits and drawbacks of the EU, this was deeply frustrating.

I must now declare my intolerance of wilful ignorance, British/English nationalism/jingoism, racial discrimination, scare-mongering, hypocrisy and prejudice.
Stupidity is slightly different, as the stupid may not be able to do anything about it.

It's the wilful ignorance bit - listen to the arguments and reject them by all means, that's the foundation of democracy. Taking a view of fwk it were off anyway isn't going to lead to better democracy or to repairs the rifts between, let's face it, two almost equal halves of the population.

[img] :large[/img]

Leave voters. A great bunch of lads.

OP, if you are still reading this thread you make some good points, I agree. We seem to have developed into a society where venting genuine disappointment and anger at those whose opinion is different is to easy to make public. It's a shame really but the days of a polite society of people who can disagree strongly but be civil to each other has long gone. For some people we live in an angry land.

Ok, so why did they vote to leave then?

The leave camp had the "advantage" that you could vote to change things (take back this, do this etc)

The remain campaign on the other hand had little to offer but "the other option is doom!"

Wilful ignorance of the 'facts' and confirmation bias due to an emotionally reached decision based upon misleading information and long-held prejudice (not necessarily racial/national).

I don't disagree that the campaigning on both sides has been a horrific race to the bottom.

But I fundamentally disagree that there are no valid reasons for voting out. Whether you put the weight of the evidence is entirely up to you, and your metrics of weighting will differ massively to others.

I don't believe that the majority have been swayed by loony Nige and chums.

I had a conversation with a colleague who voted differently this morning. It was civil and based on the reasoning we went through to get to our choice.

Contrast that to the now former Facebook friend (barely an acquaintance) who posted a nice racist victory message.

I don't immediately think that anyone who voted leave deserves an insult, I do think anyone who is a xenophobic, Farage worshipping bigot deserves insults at the very least.

Most of the leave campaign focus was around UKIP and their nasty, small minded mentality. They're the BNP with better dress sense. Any real benefit to leave was drowned out by vague claims that the EU is evil and we need our control back.

The biggest worry is if leaving doesn't work and it all goes to hell in a handcart - who will UKIP turn their gaze on next?

Got to try and keep positive and get through it now.

Not sure I agree that this is all CMD's fault as the conditions for a Brexit were created a good 5 years before he came to office.

The root cause of all of this is in how the Lisbon treaty came into existence in the first place.

Tony Blair and other then leaders negotiated a European Constitution Treaty in 2004ish. 2 member states held referendums and their people voted against what was quite clearly the mechanism to transfer greater decision making powers to Brussels / facilitate political integration.

Tony Blair promised the public a referendum and then reneged on this - with much of the powers subsequently shoved into the Lisbon Treaty and which no-one got a vote on.

The tension over European Political integration has been present across Europe from that time - CMD was the PM who picked up the pieces.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+did+blair+promise+euro+referendum/558277.html

A lot of people, for a variety of reasons, feel that the EU is not working for them, and leaving was a chance to change things. Including apparently well informed business leaders, economists and commentators. Not just the apparently hard of thinking.

I disagree with that view, but I also have to accept that the democratic will has prevailed and my view lost. The quicker we grow up, stop blaming people, and figure out how to make this new reality work for our benefit the better.

There was no rational reason to vote leave.

That simply isn't true. Lots of considered rational reasons were put forward for wanting to leave. There are plenty of them on the big thread. Probably the most common was a feeling that the EU had outgrown its mandate or that it is doomed and we are better to jump ship early.

I know several perfectly sensible smart non-racist friends that listened to the evidence and felt Leave was the right thing.

Obviously there were plenty of people on the Leave side with other motivations.
But let's not pretend they were all like that.

(Edit: so err MCTD +1)

ScottChegg - Member

Is your life going to be better for doing nothing; everything the same; no changes?
Or will taking a risk, throwing out the established system give an opportunity to make something better?
That was the opportunity presented. Most people have taken it. That's not wishing, that's acting.

I'm half inclined to agree with you, people were given a choice of "do nothing, it'll be fine" or do "something".

My point of argument would be that largely the "something" when actually investigated seems to constitute "think it'll be better because you want it to be". For all my discussion with leave voters and steps to see things from their view point I couldn't get much beyond an argument that free movement of people is bad, giving money to the EU is bad, if we stop doing these things, things will be good. To me that's wishing not doing. If you have a genuine explanation for how pulling out of the EU will make things better please feel free to (and I guess you've posted it else where) point me in the direction. (for my part it won't help that I'm pro EU, pro integration and I feel that the main failing of the EU is the inability of people to stop thinking in what I feel are outdated geographical and national terms)

I'd very much love to be proved wrong (the up shot of being right being anything from a week or two blip in the markets, return to status quo, through to long term blip in the markets and some very bad changes indeed to things like labour laws).

(as for the number of time I used stupid in the post, yes it's a few but is intended to be a reference to the op. Also if it's patronising apologies, it's not intended to be (I may be an asshat but I'm not deliberately so)

a vote for 'remain' was a vote for the status quo, in support of the establishment.

And for many people, their status quo is rubbish, and the establishment couldn't seem to care less.

now, i don't see Gove/Johnson/Farage/IDS as caring types, who'll forge a new liberated future for the disenfranchised, but my life's alright, and it's easy for me to sneer from the sidelines.

I can think of lots of things I don't like about the EU that might make me want to leave, but migration wasn't one of them.

Similarly, of all the reasons to stay, a possible economic doom wasn't high on my list either.

The info and reasons put forward by both sides were very simplistic and myopic.

a vote for 'remain' was a vote for the status quo, in support of the establishment.

And for many people, their status quo is rubbish, and the establishment couldn't seem to care less.

I can see that point of view.

Hell of an issue to want to make a protest vote over though! Not stupidity, rather it's desperation.

well, quite.

"a vote for 'remain' was a vote for the status quo, in support of the establishment.
And for many people, their status quo is rubbish, and the establishment couldn't seem to care less."

I suspect this is very true, for once some very fed up people got to say "up yours" even if they knew it may not be right. The demographics of the vote would seem so.

Whats that line from the motorbike film........

man in street: What you rebelling against?

Biker: What you got?

OP - you are spot on.

In the modern world of post-truth politics none of the descriptions listed should be applied.

My Sis in law posted this on Facebook in the interests of family harmony I did not reply with any of the above

I voted to leave based on many different reasons. All that money we send to Brussels, regardless of whether that figure was wrong or not, it's still money they do not deserve. If you are someone from the eu that wishes to come here and contribute to our society and work hard and fit in then you are welcome. No criminals, rapists or pedos as Angela Merkel would want. Done

Did you tell her how to spell paedo?

Otherwise, what's the problem....? 😉

Despite what is being claimed, there [b]is[/b] a lot of ill-informed, ignorant tosh like the above spouted by many "leave" enthusiasts.

A protest vote to spite yourself is ridiculous.

Or Was this the Boaty McBoatface referendum?

In impressed that the anti vitriol thread took a few pages to get into tit for tat name calling

We're out of the EU because some simpletons don't like having a Polish dentist.

I imagine the simpletons are wholly unconcerned with a polish dentist, it's the Polish patients which bother the simpletons.

And no we're not, we are out of the EU because the EU's representatives have failed completely to show the benefits of that institution to the majority of people in a way they can relate to.

Kimbers, more ashamed than impressed here, but yes.

Pathetic.

Is there a thread in the forum where Leavers stated explicit reasons for that vote? It's still not clear to me what the expect to happen now.