On Monday I had an interview for a job. Doing the same as I am doing now but at another company. They want to do a debrief call.
Having not had to go through the interview/recruitment process for around 15 years I'm wondering what is involved. Any recruitment types that can enlighten me?
Is that what they call a 2nd interview now?
That's what I'm trying to find out. They didn't give me much notice, e-mail at 5:50pm to set it up for tomorrow.
It might be that they're not decided, or more accurately that they can't make their mind up and want to ask more questions, setup another interview or ask for an example of work?
I'd comment that emailing at 5:50 to set something up for the next day reflects badly on them - they wouldn't get a timely answer from me - it reeks of disorganisation
I think that's normally a "no" - but a bit hard to tell. If it's a second interview, they normally just call it a second interview.
I'd take that as a feedback session rather than a 2nd interview, could be bad could be good?
Its a stupid term to use as it's not clear what it is in the context of interviewing.
Who actively offers feedback to a candidate who didn't get the job? Normally, getting something useful by asking for feedback after rejection can be like pulling teeth
Is it the company checking they treated the candidate fairly?
Maybe they want to employ you but for a different role
Bit odd, in my experience the most you can expect if you've been unsuccessful is a brief email. I'd echo the point above about organisation but on the flip side my current job, I was kept hanging for weeks, didn't get an interview, was told it had been filled. Day after I got a call to say can you come in 2 days time (Friday), asked to return on the Monday, got the job on Wednesday so may just indicate an agile business.
Other possibility is you haven't got the job but they have something else they'd like to discuss, that happened to my wife, was asked to return next day for a different position and got that one instead.
I've had an interview debrief before and it can be a useful process when done well.
I was unsuccessful in the role but my interviewer took the time to explain where I was strong, what areas they felt I fell down on and most importantly offered to mentor me in those areas to improve my chances the next time.
Done badly its just a box ticking exercise...
Feedback suggests you've not got this job at this time, but offering anything at all suggests they saw something in you that they like the look of.
I would agree with last comment, or that they want to offer you the same job for less money, as a development opportunity 🤪
Who actively offers feedback to a candidate who didn’t get the job? Normally, getting something useful by asking for feedback after rejection can be like pulling teeth
I've had that a couple of times this year actually, kind-of a double-edged sword TBH.
Anyway, can't pretend to know what this means OP - but don't be afraid to ring them up and ask. They'll probably apologise for being so opaque.
It's booked in for Monday at 12:30 - I'll update with what actually happened (or an approximation of it anyway).
So it's a job offer at a significantly higher salary than I get now but they need more clarification around a restrictive covenant I have in my current contract. Conversation with our HR director booked for 9:30am tomorrow.
Sweet! Hope it works out for you
Excellent - congrats
Great news and hopefully the covenant is straightforward but unless you are very senior they are usually not enforceable as you should not stop a person earning a living in the industry they have experience in.
Well done!
Great news and hopefully the covenant is straightforward but unless you are very senior they are usually not enforceable as you should not stop a person earning a living in the industry they have experience in.
Exactly that.
Great news and hopefully the covenant is straightforward but unless you are very senior they are usually not enforceable
All depends on how they are worded. Covenant wording has developed over time and a firm which has taken good legal advice may well have very robust ones in place. Peter Cullum - ex-Chairman of Towergate - successfully sued a number of people for breaching their covenants, one to the tune of over £1,000,000. Indeed the defendant in that case had been quite bullish and blustered something in the press about covenants being unenforceable. The courts felt otherwise.
So, whilst you cannot restrict someone's right to earn a living you cannot say 'you must not operate as a hairdresser' you can for example say 'you cannot approach any of the current firm's clients for 12 months after leaving the firm'
The grey area in this example is what happens if the current clients approach you but the general thinking is it is best to leave them well alone until the time period is up. A good firm with a good HR function though will be used to navigating this.
One of many excellent pieces from employment law sols:
https://www.lindermyers.co.uk/are-restrictive-covenants-enforceable/
So, whilst you cannot restrict someone’s right to earn a living you cannot say ‘you must not operate as a hairdresser’
actually you can even do that, but in order to get someone held to it you need to compensate them for giving up that right, which is not adequately done by simply having employed them in the past.
actually you can even do that, but in order to get someone held to it you need to compensate them for giving up that right,
Well yes of course, if you come to a specific agreement over it that is different. Similarly if you made it specific and time limited then there is a chance it would be enforceable so you could for eg put
'You cannot operate as a hairdresser within 5 miles of the current premises for a period of 6 months'
It would then be for the lawyers to fight over. Again, more of an issue if you're going self-employed as a firm with a competent HR department would have a handle on this. You would want an agreement from the new firm though that, if they signed off on you breaching the covenant that they will pay your legal bills and any compensation ordered by the courts if it got that far 🙂 .
Conversation with our HR director booked for 9:30am tomorrow.
Have you already resigned, then?
Have you already resigned, then?
Not yet. Prospective employer has asked for something in writing from current one. Covenant has the word senior in so aiming for that as a loophole because by the standard definition I am not senior, i.e. not a director/manager.
I was once called at 8:30 in the morning (whilst unemployed, I was obviously still in bed asleep) by someone in the local council to say sorry but I hadn't got the role as they'd gone with someone with more direct experience.
I'd only sent a CV!
Considering a good 98% of companies these days don't even acknowledge receiving your CV and letter it was a bit of a surprise.
Prospective employer has asked for something in writing from current one.
What do they want in writing? Just tread carefully as you are about to put your current firm on notice that you're looking to leave but they may not put in writing that the covenant doesn't apply if that's what the new Co is looking for.
Indeed I would be a bit surprised if your current Co did so this anyway. They would likely much rather leave the covenant hanging over you. If they don't then you may be in the uncomfortable position of your current Co knowing you want to leave but the new Co not proceeding to offer due to the covenant. Have you considered what you'd do in this situation?
Also senior doesn't have to mean director/ manager. I'm neither but am absolutely a senior member of our team.
I have spoken with our HR director about it prior to the interview so they are aware that something is afoot. My manager isn't aware, yet.
I know what you mean though. As part of quite a small team any one of us could be considered senior.
The other thing to consider is, that the fact this is being raised, suggests you are going to be breaching said covenant.
If you were your HR director would you sign your rights away knowing that an employee was about to bugger off and breach a covenant you felt important enough to include in a contract to protect your firm?
I don't think they want my current Co to write it off, rather give them an idea of what would happen if they deemed it had been broken.
The thing is that new Co feel the product they offer doesn't compete with current employers one but current Co think otherwise. New Co also deal with a much wider range of customers than current Co so there is potential wiggle room to avoid it.
Edit: New Co do offer a product that competes directly with current Co's offering but I would not be working with it.
How did you get on?
Current HR want speak to legal and go from there. As mentioned previously it's all a bit grey as there's some overlap but not fully competing with current employer. I think they are more worried about me taking information to new Co but it's not a role where anything like that would be divulged, tbh even if they asked I wouldn't say anything.
New HR contact is out of office until tomorrow anyway so no news until at least then.
Current I think they are more worried about me taking information to new Co but it’s not a role where anything like that would be divulged, tbh even if they asked I wouldn’t say anything.
Eh?
This is probably the key reason they're offering you the job...
This is probably the key reason they’re offering you the job…
Having experience of developing a certain product is different to just stealing the details. It's why my CV is mostly a list of plants/units I've worked on the designs for. If you offered me a job I'm not going to arrive on day 1 with a USB drive of plans for those plants. You're just employing me because I know some of the pitfalls and design dead ends to avoid in developing the next one amongst other things.
And you can only pull that trick once. After that companies start refusing to do business with you as they're concerned you'll pull a similar trick over their IP.
@intheborders - it's not a sales position but I have access to our CRM which obviously contains everything.
Update that isn't an update - HR are dragging their heels while I have to have daily calls with my manager about ongoing and upcoming projects.
Your manager still doesn't know you're about to leave then?
Just sit tight and stay cool anyway, it'll all get worked out. Though don't trust your company's HR to come up with an accurate legal position. They'll most-likely not really know and just choose a stance that suits the company.
If you feel you need advice, it might actually be worth calling your company EAP scheme (if it has one).
You’re just employing me because I know some of the pitfalls and design dead ends to avoid in developing the next one amongst other things.
Above, not this:
If you offered me a job I’m not going to arrive on day 1 with a USB drive of plans for those plants.
or this:
it’s not a sales position but I have access to our CRM which obviously contains everything.
No, I haven't said anything as I haven't signed anything at the new place yet. I don't want to tell him I'm leaving for it all to fall through as that would just make it uncomfortable.
Not saying you should have, you are playing it right.
Just saying don't get anxious, just be firm but polite with HR and remind them of your timeline.
Update: current company have said they will enforce a specific covenant in my contract if I move. Waiting on the new companies HR team to figure out what that means for them.
Bit pissed off tbh.
Without me starting another thread does anyone have experience of restrictive covenants being enforced, or managed wriggle out of one due to it being too wide ranging?
does anyone have experience of restrictive covenants being enforced, or managed wriggle out of one due to it being too wide ranging?
Yes - dealt with High Court litigation in relation to restrictive covenants on behalf of clients.
There's a lot to say on the subject and I recommend you speak to an employment lawyer for the detail, but essentially they are enforceable to the extent that they protect the employer's legitimate interests - so a covenant saying you may not contact customers of your former employer for 6 months, for example, may be enforceable - a covenant saying you cannot work in the same country as your employer for 10 years is unlikely to be.
At the end of the day unless they're ridiculous, they can and will be enforced if it is to protect the employer's legitimate interests. What in particular are you concerned about?
No, not at all, but I'm not an employment lawyer though.
