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Totally agree @Kelvin
The insulation could be done *for free* - with money we already pay in our taxes - if we stopped subsidising fossil fuels at current subsidy levels and insulated instead.
But even if we don't - there's lots of other stuff we could re-prioitise
HS2 has an outside cost estimate of £98bn to shave 20 minutes off brum to london
Insulation of the 7.5 million housing stock is cost comparative
Cleaning up the the majority of sewage that's p1ssing into our rivers and the sea is cost comparative.
Two of those three should take clear priority over one of those three...
We've *stacks* of cash in the western world. Even if we don't - we need to repurpose our economy if it doesn't allow us to respond to existential crises.
There's no excuses. We need to act.
HS2 has an outside cost estimate of £98bn to shave 20 minutes off brum to london
Disingenuous
The time for “winning hearts and minds” – is over. It’s time for action.
What's the action meant to achieve? Win hearts and minds..?
Nothing happens in any country without someone's heart and mind being behind it.
Nothing happens in any country without someone’s heart and mind being behind it.
Who's "hearts and minds" prioritised reducing taxes on banks in this budget? It wasn't in the Conservative manifesto. It's never been voted on by the public. It isn't backed by the "majority" of the "people"... the government just gets on and does it. The government need to just get on with [ better ] insulating our housing stock, through planning, legislation, tax rules and investment... starting with social housing and all new builds.
Disingenuous
Oh, I agree with this molgrips.
We're currently pricing people off of trains for long journeys, and onto the motorways and into the air. We need more rail capacity, and we needed it decades ago.
Monbiot had this nailed 15 years ago. .... Still though the usual suspects on here will dismiss him as a hair-shirted hippy idealist.
He's not though is he? I've mostly seen him as an attention seeker who enjoys the argument more than being right (christ - he's not on here is he?). He comes from a fairly privileged background which got him a platform in the guardian, where he's now become a "personality" - and like most columnists he has to continue to be outspoken because nobody wants to read mundane stuff.
I find Monbiot's stuff very interesting and brings up lots of things I wasn't aware of
It’s the fact that those who want everyone to make changes to help solve the problem don’t seem to want to set an example themselves by leading that change.
It's not up to them to set an example themselves. Even if they lived in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere it wouldn't be enough for the naysayers. This needs collective, macroeconomic system change and action. What George Monbiot or Greta Thunberg, or any other individual does is irrelevant.
George Monbiot has done more than his fair share of flying round the planet…
Quite possibly the silliest thing you've ever said on here. Apart from the fact Monbiot has barely flown since he wrote Heat, it's a ridiculous straw man and you of all people should know that.
Monbiot, like all of us, has to take a look at himself, and understand the world doesn’t revolve around HIM.
You do realise don't you that GM is probably one of the most vocal anti-capitalist campaigners out there? He's on your side of whatever class war you think you're fighting yet you don't seem to realise it.
Most folk won’t have the luxury of voluntarily making positive changes to their lifestyles pretty soon.
So tell that to the people who mined the raw materials that went into making the electronic device you posted that comment from. See how far you get.
@bridges – if you can’t see that our intertwined global crises of mass extinction events, global heating and other devastating environmental crises – crises in critical systems we *all* rely on to live – are bigger in scope than votes for women in Blighty in 1903 and the emancipation of black people in a single country then I’m more happy to dismiss you as thick.
Se; I'd always thought that those two movements had had a huge, global impact, far beyond mere national borders. And have had a lasting legacy with International Women's Rights movements, and anti-racism movements globally. But what do I know eh; I'm just a bit fick... 😉
You’re not going to come round. Ever.
I might have, had you not been nasty to me. :'(
It’s clear you don’t understand the criticality of the issues in front of the human race.
No it's cos I is fick, innit?
Because, clearly, you are.
See? You even said so yourself! So it must be true.
The time for “winning hearts and minds” – is over. It’s time for action.
How you gonna do that then, big pants? By insulting and abusing people from behind a keyboard? 😀
Quite possibly the silliest thing you’ve ever said on here.
No I'm sure I've said sillier things.
You do realise don’t you that GM is probably one of the most vocal anti-capitalist campaigners out there? He’s on your side of whatever class war you think you’re fighting yet you don’t seem to realise it.
I'm not actually against George Monbiot for what he's written, I'm simply critical of his involvement with a group which thought it ok to impede ordinary people getting to work etc. That organisation has since rowed back on the use of such actions, so I don't really have much beef with him. Wind your neck in.
I’m simply critical of his involvement with a group which thought it ok to impede ordinary people getting to work etc.
And just for bloody climate change - ooo, what a bastard!
Done with your trolling.
Done with your trolling.
Hearts and minds, right there. Winning.
Have a lovely weekend, everyone.
A very topical interjection from Monbiot. Everyone should read it.
Hmm yes, Monbiot gets the climate crisis but he doesn't really get people. He makes it sound like the media is ignoring the crisis. But unfortunately the media has to produce what people want to watch. And you can't simply assail them with gloom constantly - they'll switch off, or switch over to something that is less gloomy.
The way to get people onside is to insert the narrative you want into things that people are already watching.
I think he ‘gets people’ just fine. The first half of that article does just that. He also gets power, and the destructive way it’s exercised by the rich to exploit and dispossess everyone else. You can’t fix this with clever PR. It requires mass political action on a scale not seen before. And yet here we are moaning about a handful of people temporarily blocking the roads.
It requires mass political action on a scale not seen before. And yet here we are moaning about a handful of people temporarily blocking the roads.
When you figure out how to fix everything, let us know ok?
I'd argue that clever PR is the only thing that's delivered the meagre progress we've made so far.
If this forum had the ability for likes then George Monbiots comments can have literally thousands of them from me. Have been reading his stuff for a while and thoroughly agree with almost everything I've heard him say. Sadly, a huge portion of the population are so self obsessed and delusional that the vital point he's making is unlikely to get through. Capitalism will eat itself, spit many people out and destroy the planet. His point of the doubling rate of growth and its consumption given an expected 3% rate is really eye opening given we must be at our near resource limits now. What we need is radical economic remodelling and a reevaluation of what wealth and health is in our lifestyles.
I’m just calling out your apologist bollocks – anything more is just in your head.
Sorry, who am I being an apologist for exactly? Dont tell me, the government??😂😂
I agree with Monbiot, he's dead right on most stuff. But whilst it might feel good to read it doesn't change the world in itself. It's going to be nearly impossible to get people to reduce the scope and reach of their lives for the sake of the environment.
I'd argue that stuff like articles on great UK holidays would have more of an effect - and the people who are bringing UK locations upmarket to make people want to go there. Or maybe the scientists working on artificial meat.
I’m not sure that George Monbiot’s degree in zooology qualifies him as an expert in economics (or climate change) either… and that’s before Greta Thunberg’s absence from formal education strengthens her own credibility.
Given that we are supposed to follow the science, Can anyone tell me the scientific criteria for a ‘crisis’ or ‘catastrophe’… Because they do sound awfully like propaganda rather than science.
Surely the word "catastrophic" has a clearly understood meaning in science?
Greta Thunberg’s absence from formal education
That sounds quite a dramatic way to describe a gap year.
She has a habit of saying that you shouldn’t listen to her, you should listen to the scientists, anyway.
George Monbiot’s degree in zooology qualifies him as an expert in economics (or climate change)
He’s a journalist and writer, and entirely dependent on the expertise of others when it comes to both economics and climate change.
That sounds quite a dramatic way to describe a gap year.
Well when the message is so strong and clear, best to shoot the messenger if you want it to be ignored.
I’m not sure that George Monbiot’s degree in zooology...
The denialists are going to have to have to delve more deeply into their book of excuses once the consequences start coming their way. Since when has the specifics of what one studied at undergraduate level ever placed limitations on an individuals ability to eloquently express an educated opinion on a broad range of subject matter? Monbiot has spoken clearly about the background that initiated his divergence from common opinion.
It would be great if we didn’t hear from Greta. Unfortunately she has a nasty habit of travelling round the world to where people who shove a microphone under her nose to record her latest rant.
I’m not sure that George Monbiot’s degree in zooology qualifies him as an expert in economics (or climate change) either…
Besides the fact that this is an idiotic comment hardly worthy of a response, Monbiot is a journalist. It’s literally his job to distill the knowledge and experience of others more qualified than himself into a form which which lay people can understand. And on the climate crisis there’s no one better at doing that.
It would be great if we didn’t hear from Greta.
Another idiotic post. Thunberg has done more than any single person to communicate the problem of climate change to a mass audience and has mobilised millions to take political action. And she was only 16 years old! She’s achieved more as a child to change the world than the rest of us put together so get back in your box.
It would be great if we didn’t hear from Greta.
Have you tried putting your fingers in your ears and saying "lalala" loudly?
and that’s before Greta Thunberg’s absence from formal education strengthens her own credibility.
****s sake, talk about empty mudslinging. All she's ever said is wake up and listen to what the scientists are telling you.
@kevog can you tell us specifically where Greta and George are wrong, in your expert opinion?
It would be great if we didn’t hear from Greta.
No, she's great, it'd be much better if we didn't hear shitty comments from you. The difference between you and her is that she's campaigning to make the world a better place and you're just posting nasty shit on the internet.
Yep....
I don't think you can knock Greta..whats not to like wanting to make the world a better place 🙂
What’s wrong? Firstly she didn’t have a clue or offer anything to help resolve the problem. She just rants. Everyone knows what the problem is, we need solutions and a global willingness for the powerful to do what’s is against their vested interests.
Secondly she seems to think it’s ok for her to travel round the world but others shouldn’t. Has she not heard of zoom or trams so you don’t need to travel
I would like to know who is controlling her. Some one is paying for all her travel and getting her invitations to speak at these events. Not the sort of thing your average ranty teenagers get invited to.
I would like to know who is controlling her.
Now we're getting to the nitty-gritty.....
If "everybody knows what the problem is" @chrismac - why are you so bloody bothered about Greta?
Why are you not very very angry at our leaders - the people who we pay to solve these problems - for failing to fix the problems?
Why are you whining about a girl who is exercising her right to complain that our leaders aren't solving the problems instead of joining her and directing your ire at them?
It seems very much like your ass is where your face should be.
It’s not exactly clear from the ‘insulate Britain’ website just what they recommend we use to insulate our homes.
Hopefully something non-toxic like hemp:
Or is their organisation just a front for all manner of large corporations to offload surplus toxic products?
Why are you not very very angry at our leaders – the people who we pay to solve these problems – for failing to fix the problems?
because life is too short to worry about things I can’t control.
How many people on this thread would stop buying new bikes to reduce carbon emissions? How many only ever ride from home to reduce emissions? How many don’t have kids to reduce carbon emissions? The reality is that everyone is good at coming up with suggestions and solutions that don’t affect them.
We participate in a leisure activity that does nothing but harm to the planet yet we collectively keep buying more and more stuff. Travel more and more to enjoy it. Read magazines written by people who have traveled to write the story or to help sell more stuff.
Our leaders will just follow the own self interests just like we do. They aren’t going to fix the problem
Chrismac you appear to be extrapolating your own obvious selfishness onto the wider population. It's a bit unfair for you to assume that everyone is as selfish as you.
Ernie. What’s selfish about asking the questions? How many of us are willing to make those changes? If we aren’t then we are just part of the problem and not the solution. Why do we expect others to make changes if we aren’t prepared to make simple changes about how we spend our leisure time?
What’s selfish about asking the questions? How many of us are willing to make those changes?
Answers are usually unpopular.
How many people on this thread would stop buying new bikes to reduce carbon emissions?
Already do. Last new bike I bought was an ex demo, before that was a Rocky Mountain hardtail, 21 years ago.
How many only ever ride from home to reduce emissions?
About twice (sometimes three) times a year I drive to ride but all the rest ride from home. Willing to ride from home 100%. More than willing to transit-share/train/EV for the few rides away or give them up.
We participate in a leisure activity that does nothing but harm to the planet yet we collectively keep buying more and more stuff
My (used) bikes get ridden locally 99.9% of the time carrying groceries and errands as well as leisure/fitness - so I’m not especially ‘harming the planet’ by choosing to ride them instead of using a car. ymmv
How many of us are willing to make those changes?
I am. Trouble is if it’s only people like me that doesn’t come close to solving the problem. Pointing out the supposed hypocrisy of those of us who are bothered is just a pathetic, cowardly excuse for your own inaction and selfishness.
I am. Trouble is if it’s only people like me that doesn’t come close to solving the problem.
Agreed. And there is lies the problem. It needs millions of people to make a similar commitment round the world and I dont see any evidence to show that we are anywhere close or ever likely to be before it is way too late from a human species point of view.
My (used) bikes get ridden locally 99.9% of the time carrying groceries and errands as well as leisure/fitness – so I’m not especially ‘harming the planet’ by choosing to ride them instead of using a car. ymmv
Fair play. I will be honest Im not. I dont have decent local trails so drive to ride, I love going to the Alps to ski and ride and have no intention of stopping. Clearly the whole of the bike industry is dependent on most people wanting new bikes and bits for them. The people I ride with all drive to where we are meeting up and all love UK and overseas bike trips. Im sure thats the majority
My (used) bikes get ridden locally 99.9% of the time carrying groceries and errands as well as leisure/fitness – so I’m not especially ‘harming the planet’ by choosing to ride them instead of using a car.
Me too, I've never been able to drive and from when I got my first bike in about 1992, all journeys, shopping, commuting, visiting friends etc etc etc have been facilitated by bicycle.
My home is also insulated, thanks mainly to Glasgow city council who embarked on a plan of insulating homes about 5 years ago. Next step when we've saved enough is to get the front of the house double glazed, the rear done about 3 years ago.
And when it is time to change the heating to whatever is legislated upon, heat pumps or otherwise, we'll be getting that done too.
All in all I think my home and lifestyle is quite carbon friendly. With the exception of big juicy steaks 😉
I dont see any evidence to show that we are anywhere close or ever likely to be before it is way too late from a human species point of view.
Almost like action needs to come from governments, and people should make that point as loudly as possible, rather than berating others for doing so because they personally can’t be arsed with doing anything because “life is too short”. Stop feeling so guilty about your own life choices and support those calling for systematic changes at the National and Supranational level.
Almost like action needs to come from governments
As the next 2 weeks will show there is little to no appetite from governments around the world to do anything meaningful about it. Governments will do as their financial backers want ( certainly in the UK and USA I dont know how corrupt other governments are). The fact that China, Russia and India cant even be bothered to fly to Glasgow should give an indication as to how little will come from government.
support those calling for systematic changes at the National and Supranational level.
Agreed
Arnold Schwarzenegger is leading the way by calling for governments to lead the way… from his climate-friendly e-hummer
Or Leonardo DiCaprio, tweeting about climate change from his private jet
And that’s before we get into Harry and Meghan
As the next 2 weeks will show there is little to no appetite from governments around the world to do anything meaningful about it.
Agreed. Very likely. Which is why some people are protesting about government inaction, and trying to keep issues alive rather than quietly ignored. Which is where this thread started.
And that’s before we get into Harry and Meghan
Yes. Everyone can be painted a hypocrite if their message is uncomfortable.
Yes. Everyone can be painted a hypocrite if their message is uncomfortable.
Especially when their personal carbon footprint is larger than a small country.
Everyone can be painted a hypocrite if their message is uncomfortable
it’s not about whether their message is uncomfortable or not it’s a simple statement of fact. I see Charles felt the need to fly to Rome and back to read out loud about climate change. He did it without any sense of irony!
I will be honest Im not. I dont have decent local trails so drive to ride, I love going to the Alps to ski and ride and have no intention of stopping.
Why do I get the feeling this is the true cause of your anger?
The key to climate change, and all things in life really, is accepting that you're hypocrite.
Every single one of us is a hypocrite on one or more issues. Noone is ideologically pure. You may be great at loads of stuff but when it comes down to it we're all hypocrites about something. Maybe it's trans rights when you're a right-on lefty. Maybe it's occasionally shopping from Amazon even though you go to the refillery once a week. Or moaning about folk in Land Rovers on your phone that is dripping with the blood of African cobalt miners.
Accept your failings. They don't mean you're a failure.
Though I am now over 50% sure that when I get older I will need to kill people for food. I'm learning sword skills in preparation.
Especially when their personal carbon footprint is larger than a small country.
Read that Monbiot article. He is very clear on what needs to happen about the rich and their unacceptable carbon emissions.
Every single one of us is a hypocrite on one or more issues.
It's not quite as bad as that, because it's not really possible to completely dissociate yourself from anything bad. I could give up my phone, because of the poor conditions for the people mining its raw materials. But is that what I really want to do? Or do I want governments to stop allowing it to happen? Do I want manufacturers to take an interest in ethics? Hypocrisy is saying one thing whilst believing something else. I don't *believe* any of this is fine - it's not - but I feel trapped by the juggernaut that is modern life. After all, phones bring benefits as well as problems.
That's why I said earlier that it's government that need to act, and voters who need to vote responsibly.
It would be great if we didn’t hear from Greta.
What is it about that amazing young woman, that you feel threatened by? I love Greta Thunberg; I think she's achieved something incredible in her young life. Not only has she helped raise global awareness of climate change issues, she's also inspired countless millions of kids around the planet. And; IB protestors take note; she achieved all that simply by staging a quiet protest where she didn't piss anyone off trying to get to work...
What is it about that amazing young woman, that you feel threatened by?
Because she points out peoples failings, easier to ridicule than to face up to those failings.
I too love Greta. She has almost single handedly got young people of the world listening to her, talking about climate change and realising this is serious.
We need her, because there are far too many parents just carrying on as they always have, if one of their children mentions something that Greta has done/said, the parents hopefully may stop and think.
We can but hope.
What is it about that amazing young woman, that you feel threatened by?
Because people don't think rationally, most think only in personal terms. If someone tells them something they don't like hearing (e.g. you need to stop driving/flying/buying so much or similar) then they get annoyed and lash out. That's it. Happens on here all the time. Someone says 'this is bad for the environment' then others retort 'yeah but YOU aren't so perfect'. Well no, I'm not, but that's not what this is about. That thing is still bad for the environment regardless of what I do. 'Ah, but people don't like to be told to do something by someone who isn't doing it themselves' - well, too bad, sorry. These are the facts.
Greta is ****ing awesome. See her sick burn of Trump, for one example:
https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1351890941087522820?s=20
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Thumberg+south+east+asia/blockquote >
No impact whatsoever ... she can scream, yell etc ... the power just sweeps her aside like a fly.
She does not understand a single thing about the culture in SE Asia.
In SE Asia she is considered feral or "kurang ajar" and her value is incompatible with culture there.
The governments in the region will only do it for shows, just like China.Give you a clue if you wish to have impact in that region. Provide them with alternative energy source that is the same or better at an affordable price for that region. If you can do that you have hope, otherwise it is not going to change and will become even worst.
No government in that region will risk their necks to make life harder for the masses just because of this young girl. Remember the politicians there rely on being politicians/corruptions etc to earn their millions and they ain't going to stop the gravy train because of her.
What is it about that amazing young woman, that you feel threatened by?
Nothing at all. I just don’t see what all the adulation is for. I am suspicious how secretive she is about who is funding all of this travelling and getting her invited speak at these events. Your average teenager wouldn’t get a look in
Well, that’s two resounding recommendations for her, considering what you two are like when it comes to the climate change agenda. The more she makes herself heard, the more you will dislike her. Because the messages from the scientific community that she seeks to help amplify, you not only don’t want to hear them, you hate that others might listen to them. She pushes for action that you don’t want, you don’t want her to succeed. That’s what it comes down to, isn’t it. It’s nothing to do with her being “feral” or any real concerns about her funding, it is because you are hateful little men who actually don’t mind the effects of climate change, you don’t want it to be slowed down, you are happy for the world to burn and care not one tiny shit about future generations, do you?
I’m more than happy to listen to scientists and the academic community. I studied climate change as my degree. I am well aware of the problem and the issues surrounding it hence my cynicism that a solution is anything but along way off because of the size of the response needed. I don’t see what she is doing to help solve the problem. I don’t see how her travels are actually doing anything to contribute to a solution. She is very good at generating media noise but so what, how does that help with a solution?
She is very good at generating media noise but so what, how does that help with a solution?
Because that helps persuade people and politicians are swayed by what they think the voters want (amongst other influences of course). It would be better if it weren't like that but what the bulk of the population want does actually matter
Because that helps persuade people and politicians are swayed by what they think the voters want
Really?
How well has that theory worked out so far then?
How many people do you think XR’s activities over the last couple of years have sucessfully ‘persuaded’?
I don’t see how her travels are actually doing anything to contribute to a solution.
Why do her “travels” (in this case a series of trains to get to Glasgow) upset you, but your own do not? Is it because you don’t want action to slow down climate change? Do you fear the changes will come, and might limit your life choices in an effort to hand over a less damaged planet to the younger and future generations? If you consider her “travels” pointless, and ultimately fruitless, why does that bother you? Would that make them any different to you own?
She is very good at generating media noise but so what, how does that help with a solution?
Yes, ssshhh… keep quiet and the governments will get around to making changes eventually. You don’t believe that for a second. It is very unlikely governments will act in time unless pushed. You know that.
If you REALLY thought that she had no chance of helping others influence governments and their policies, you wouldn’t even bother commenting on her. You are slamming her as being ineffectual, but I think you fear that she and others might end up effecting change that you don’t want to see. If not, why do you care what she does or says?
Lots of errors in that post… but seems to take 15 mins to load an edit page… so they’ll have to stand. You get the gist.
How well has that theory worked out so far then?
Better than most.
I suppose you're comparing her to the scientists working on world saving technology? Where are they getting funding? Do you think they'd get as much if it weren't front page news? Who's done more than most to put it on front pages?
I've read your posts and I'm still not sure how you can criticise Thunberg. You seem to be arguing that she's worthless because she isn't working on a solution herself. Well, the solution is political, politics is about public opinion so I'd argue that she is very much working on it.
Who does get your approval?
How many people do you think XR’s activities over the last couple of years have sucessfully ‘persuaded’
Im pretty sure Greta isn't XR
I can think of around 25 people (most of whom I know) who were persuaded by a couple of XR speakers to increase their level of action on climate change. For some that actively means lobbying people they know, for others that means improving their personal actions. For some that means XR type of actions
chrismac
Yeah, she can stay; you on the other hand can avail yourself of the rapidly rising sea levels.
I’m more than happy to listen to scientists and the academic community.
Does not jibe well with
I love going to the Alps to ski and ride and have no intention of stopping.
Greta's going to grow up, as an adult she'll be a force to reckon with.
People can still ski, can still fly, can still buy certain things, but do it in moderation.
Instead of having mini European city breaks 3 or 4 times a year, just have the one. Or maybe fly once and stay in that place longer. Make it a treat.
We'll certainly be going skiing in the future, but we'll go once and not fly.
I am suspicious how secretive she is about who is funding all of this travelling and getting her invited speak at these events
Can you provide proof of Greta Thunberg being secretive about who funds her traveling and invites her to speak at events?
I am not aware of this alleged secrecy. On the contrary she appears to be very open, but it would concern me if I thought she was being economical with the truth.
Nothing at all. I just don’t see what all the adulation is for. I am suspicious how secretive she is about who is funding all of this travelling and getting her invited speak at these events. Your average teenager wouldn’t get a look in
So you're basing your irrational dislike on her on absolutely nothing but your own 'suspicion'?
Because that's scientific...
How many people on this thread would stop buying new bikes to reduce carbon emissions? How many only ever ride from home to reduce emissions? How many don’t have kids to reduce carbon emissions? The reality is that everyone is good at coming up with suggestions and solutions that don’t affect them.
We participate in a leisure activity that does nothing but harm to the planet yet we collectively keep buying more and more stuff. Travel more and more to enjoy it. Read magazines written by people who have traveled to write the story or to help sell more stuff.
Our leaders will just follow the own self interests just like we do. They aren’t going to fix the problem
Chrismac actually has a point here though; the truth is, for all the virtue signalling going on, the vast majority of us really don't do anything beyond mere token efforts, to actively change our lifestyles. People are still going to live in bigger houses than they need, some distance from where they work, and will need to use polluting methods of transport to get to work, shops, leisure activities etc. We'll still be 'upgrading' our bikes, our computers, our 'phones, our white goods, TVs, etc etc. And we'll never give up all our comforts and luxuries, let's face it. We'll still quietly be going on our holidays wherever we like, because we deserve it.
I wish we had a govt who said "We will lead the way and show other countries what's possible"
Instead it's all about blaming/shaming other countries.
for all the virtue signalling going on
I don't think many people are virtue signalling here. We're mostly pointing out how ****ed we are. Virtue signalling would be going on about how green we personally are, and I don't see a ton of that.
I don’t think many people are virtue signalling here.
I'd be amazed if anyone on this forum is truly making the necessary efforts to address their own consumption beyond a token effort. Based on real world experience; people just don't, regardless of what they might say. People are devious. You don't know what unnecessary journeys someone else has made, or what new things they've bought this month; people aren't going to admit they're being hypocritical, as a general rule. If you laid out everyones actual behaviour, as opposed to what they might claim, then you'll see the problem. And even so; everyone expects everyone else to change, they won't want to give up their own choices readily. Simple human nature. We're inherently greedy and selfish. That's the root of the problem.
the vast majority of us really don’t do anything beyond mere token efforts
Speak for yourself.
Anyway, all the big changes need to be instigated by governments. The whole... "makes small changes in your own lives" is pissing in the wind... it's all warm and cuddly to think that "if we all make a change" we'll make enough of a change... but it's sadly not true, governments need to act.
Speak for yourself.
I am. But I don't see the vast majority of others being any different in real terms. And I'm just being blunt about the reality of what most of us actually do, in terms of considering the issues. Change can only start if we're all honest with ourselves. No point saying 'speak for yourself' when it's very likely you're not much different to anyone else in terms of actively making steps to change your lifestyle.
Anyway, all the big changes need to be instigated by governments
And while you're waiting for that, stick another chunk of polar ice in my drink, would you? Thanks.
the vast majority of us really don’t do anything beyond mere token efforts
FFS how many times? Individual action is a smokescreen, a red herring, and the greatest form of greenwash. It distracts and diverts attention and responsibility away from producers and onto consumers, ensuring that the corporations and the people who get rich from them can carry on regardless, while those at the bottom who are least empowered to solve the problem shoulder all the responsibility.
We'll all have to change eventually, but the key word is *all*. That doesn't require us to change our lives now whilst everyone else carries on as normal, instead it requires us to demand that governments force us to change and then accept it when it comes.
Someone on R4 just now hit the nail on the head "Politicians know exactly what to do, they just don't know how to get re-elected after doing it"
This is the problem we are not ready for a reduction in our standard of living. In order to stop climate change there is going to have to be a massive change in our lives.
China is often berated but their 1 child policy probably did more to slow climate change than any other policy from any other government.
it’s very likely you’re not much different to anyone else in terms of actively making steps to change your lifestyle
Well, if I told you what changes I've personally made (I have already as it happens, but I'm not going to bang on about it, and it really isn't the point)... then you'd find some other way of dismissing the messages that I'm supporting, and the ones that Thunberg is trying to keep live and make us see as pressing, and the ones IB are trying to force... and that is that governments need to act now.
FFS how many times?
...Will you totally misunderstand something? I don't know. I really don't know...
Well, if I told you what changes I’ve personally made (I have already as it happens, but I’m not going to bang on about it, and it really isn’t the point)
So...
"I’m burning gas in my boiler right now. I have a diesel car parked outside."
Great. Crack on.