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No person on a bike would fail to realise that there’s a massive brick of a vehicle behind them
Assume you must be a fair weather rider that never rides when it's a tad windy then, personally I don't mind a warning toot & am quite happy to give a toot in the right situation.
Got a mirror on the tandem, it's great for advance warning instead of having to crane my neck past my stoker to see what's going on behind.
There’s so much rambling, impotent hostility in this thread.
Quite gammon-like I'd have said.
It is a secondary less aggressive horn. One for regular use that is mounted in the steering wheel centre and a 'cyclist-friendly' alternative that lets out a lesser 'toot' when the red button on the steering wheel is pushed.
Think this is a fantastic idea. Particularly as electric (silent) vehicles become more usual so have more capacity to startle with an unexpected (even if safe distanced) overtake.
I...
I rather like that.
All they need now is to ensure that every repair only requires a flat-blade screw driver, an 8mm socket and a 4lb lump hammer, and I'd buy one myself.
To all those getting so hot under the collar, it's just design. They've identified a target market and designed a product to appeal to it. I don't like the look of Orange bikes but plenty do and I don't hate them for it.
I quite like it. Very "Blue Thunder".
No person on a bike would fail to realise that there’s a massive brick of a vehicle behind them – therefore this is not helpful to the average bike rider,
It's happened to me, quite hard to hear a car approaching if there's a headwind. I guess I'll have to live with being worse than average.
It would be nice if it was a short soft toot - like a US car being locked rather than a blast of the horn which in the wrong hands may startle riders more than just overtaking safely!
I don’t suppose it’s a problem if its separate from the horn though.
I've wondered before whether it would be possible to hack something like a Hornit to make a more pleasant horn. The ones on my MG had obviously perished and actually made a pleasant "honk/parp" noise until I fixed them with new Lucas ones and now they sound like every other car again.
It is a secondary less aggressive horn. One for regular use that is mounted in the steering wheel centre and a ‘cyclist-friendly’ alternative that lets out a lesser ‘toot’ when the red button on the steering wheel is pushed.
Think this is a fantastic idea. Particularly as electric (silent) vehicles become more usual so have more capacity to startle with an unexpected (even if safe distanced) overtake.
Has anyone heard it?
All it does is encourage sounding your car horn with the clear inference contrary to the actual facts of who has right of way to get a cycle rider to move over. If you are driving in accordance with the highway code you shouldn't need to sound any horn at person riding a bike
The idea that a little 'toot' button makes a vehicle this size cyclist-friendly in any way is hilarious.
Maybe I'm being a 'fun sponge', but I happen to feel quite strongly that this kind of car makes using road space far less fun for just about every other road user.
I hope it makes a "Poop-Poop" noise like Mr Toad's car in The Wind In The Willows.
All it does is encourage sounding your car horn with the clear inference contrary to the actual facts of who has right of way to get a cycle rider to move over. If you are driving in accordance with the highway code you shouldn’t need to sound any horn at person riding a bike
Doesn't the highway code state that a horn is for use as an audible warning that you are there & nothing more, quite happy to receive an audible but friendly warning myself.
mechanicaldope
Full MemberIt is a secondary less aggressive horn. One for regular use that is mounted in the steering wheel centre and a ‘cyclist-friendly’ alternative that lets out a lesser ‘toot’ when the red button on the steering wheel is pushed.
Maybe that's what the engineer/designer thinks. Will that survive contact with the public? Not a chance. In practice, it's a button that says honk at cyclists.
Amazing
Cycle team owning car producer adds a jokey little nod to being polite to cyclists and the utter bellend brigade are outraged.
I really can’t make head nor tail of it.
Are folk really this stupid and bitter ?
The more I read the more amazed I am.
Thanks for the video scotroutes.
Is it just me that thinks this honking and tooting is all a bit Johnny Fartpants?
Cycle team owning car producer adds a jokey little nod to being polite to cyclists and the utter bellend brigade are outraged.
I really can’t make head nor tail of it.
Are folk really this stupid and bitter ?
The more I read the more amazed I am.
Other than "I'm here, move over" would a car driver need to "toot" at a person on a cycle. If you are in front you have right of way, if they sit behind you what danger do they pose? Oncoming, would you hear it and why "toot"? From the side, why "toot"?
When was the last time you sounded your horn at a person on a cycle?
I’m inherently opposed to it because I don’t like the founder, but it is interesting. It seems a bit of an odd mix of retro and modern. I half expect the radio to be set up to only play the band of the Coldstream Guards! 😀
So from Scotroutes video, it appears that the 'secondry' toot horn is indeed a safety feature to let cyclists know youre there without scaring them with a big standard horn - sounds quite a good thoughtful design to me
Probably good for sheep on the road as well.
So from Scotroutes video, it appears that the ‘secondry’ toot horn is indeed a safety feature to let cyclists know youre there without scaring them with a big standard horn – sounds quite a good thoughtful design to me
Why do they need to know you are there?
and the utter bellend brigade are outraged.
You don't seem that outraged.
Despite the cultural problems identified by some posters here (entrenched hatred of cyclists, who in turn anticipate aggressive intent from drivers), it might be a really useful feature in countries where a friendly toot is just that.
And it might be seen as part of the solution in terms of building more respect for cyclists.
But you'd have to separate that from the Brexit promoting, offshoring, polluting billionaire behind it and from any residual distaste for huge motorised lumps of metal.
I listened to what the designer said, he must be sounding his horn a lot more than I do to alert cyclists, is he "making progress" when he does this?
Big LOL that it's an unpowered mockup, can't even demo the "toot"
And it might be seen as part of the solution in terms of building more respect for cyclists.
Explain why I should feel "respected" when a driver "toots" at me. Please.
Explain why I should feel “respected” when a driver “toots” at me. Please.
Because you've not been collected on the bonnet.
Maybe that’s what the engineer/designer thinks. Will that survive contact with the public? Not a chance. In practice, it’s a button that says honk at cyclists.
Maybe it makes a cheery "Hello! Have a nice day" toot.
Amazing
Cycle team owning car producer adds a jokey little nod to being polite to cyclists and the utter bellend brigade are outraged.I really can’t make head nor tail of it.
Are folk really this stupid and bitter ?
The more I read the more amazed I am.
This is - arguably - a cycling forum, isn't it? Guess not. Carry on gammoning.
Explain why I should feel “respected” when a driver “toots” at me. Please.
Because if you ride anywhere outside of town it's entirely possible to be subject to a headwind or just general wind noise and higher car speeds which makes it impossible to hear traffic coming up behind unless they have to slow right down behind you long enough to be noticed?
A polite 'toot' would have been appreciated in those circumstances even if they did cross over the white lines to the other side for the overtake. Modern horns designed to be heard through soundproofed car panels and double glazed windows on the other hand are bloody terrifying!
But it's not particularly easy when you're safely ensconced in your massive 4X4 to tell if there's a headwind, or a sidewind, and/or whether it's blowing at quite a sufficient velocity to drown out your ridiculous diesel engine or not. So you're supposed to 'toot' at all cyclists, just to be on the safe side?
I think nickc needs to back away from this thread before he gives himself an aneurysm.
I quite like that dash, at least it's a bit different to most things out there. Sadly I'm not the target audience seen as I'm not a 50-something entitled golf playing gammon (or whatever... 🙄).
Imagine people actually liking different things. Crazy.
Toot button is a bit random though (unless it's a less aggressive version of the horn, then it makes more sense)
So you’re supposed to ‘toot’ at all cyclists, just to be on the safe side?
Er... no.
But I can think of plenty of occasions, especially on country lanes, where being made aware of the presence of a vehicle, without being made to jump out of your skin, would be useful.
Toot button is a bit random though (unless it’s a less aggressive version of the horn, then it makes more sense)
Got it in one.
But it’s not particularly easy when you’re safely ensconced in your massive 4X4 to tell if there’s a headwind, or a sidewind, and/or whether it’s blowing at quite a sufficient velocity to drown out your ridiculous diesel engine or not. So you’re supposed to ‘toot’ at all cyclists, just to be on the safe side?
Doesn't seem like the worst idea in the world, does it? A polite toot from 400m back has got to be more pleasant than the more common surprise-but-safe overtake.
We manage to ding bells for walkers without turning into a frothing at the mouth Brexit voting gammon?
It would have to be a [i]really[/i] nice sounding horn for me to get on board with that 🙂
scotroutes
Got it in one.
Exactly, it's the ogmios "gentle beep", isn't it.
So you’re supposed to ‘toot’ at all cyclists, just to be on the safe side?
Er… no.
But I can think of plenty of occasions, especially on country lanes, where being made aware of the presence of a vehicle, without being made to jump out of your skin, would be useful
My first day cycling in France I couldn't work out why drivers seemed so angry at cyclists- getting horns honked at me in little country lanes - until it began to dawn that they were little toots of encouragement with an occasional 'Bon Courage' out the window.
Theres quite a range of emotions that people communicate with what toot of a horn - difficult for the person being tooted at to know what the tooter intended.
A dilema described perfectly here (5m32s)
Edit
Exactly, it’s the ogmios “gentle beep”, isn’t it.
Great minds think alike
When was the last time you sounded your horn at a person on a cycle?
Saturday, (as I said on the previous page).
Sounds like a great idea for France, but in the UK I imagine most car drivers would prefer their bike tooter looking like this
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I can't think of any time a motorist has ever honked at me and it's been a good thing. It's always meant "get out of my way"
An awful lot of people on here are projecting their own prejudices onto other people’s actions. I am reminded of when I give a polite ‘ting ‘ting warning on the bell on a cycle path & the pedestrian construes this as ‘get out of my way’
Because if you ride anywhere outside of town it’s entirely possible to be subject to a headwind or just general wind noise and higher car speeds which makes it impossible to hear traffic coming up behind unless they have to slow right down behind you long enough to be noticed?
A polite ‘toot’ would have been appreciated in those circumstances
Why? What are you going to do on hearing a 'toot,' throw your bike into a hedge?
If I'm riding somewhere where I'm likely to encounter traffic then I'll tuck in when it's safe to overtake and take primary when it is not. Who or what is behind me is irrelevant, it's just safe and considerate riding. They can toot all they like, if it's not safe to overtake then it's not safe to overtake and they can wait the several seconds until it is.
We manage to ding bells for walkers without turning into a frothing at the mouth Brexit voting gammon?
This is kinda the same argument. People go apoplectic about cyclists riding two-abreast, yet will cheerfully take up the entirety of a path half a mile wide. The bell shouldn't be necessary and wouldn't be necessary if folk acknowledged that they weren't the only people on the planet.
Why? What are you going to do on hearing a ‘toot,’ throw your bike into a hedge?
I think you might just be looking for an argument here.
The bell shouldn’t be necessary and wouldn’t be necessary if folk acknowledged that they weren’t the only people on the planet.
Ah, yes... yes you are.
This is kinda the same argument. People go apoplectic about cyclists riding two-abreast, yet will cheerfully take up the entirety of a path half a mile wide. The bell shouldn’t be necessary and wouldn’t be necessary if folk acknowledged that they weren’t the only people on the planet.
Not what the HC says.
Essentially you could argue that you should never need a bell/horn at all. After all, if it is meant as a warning, and you have time to give a warning, then you will also have time to stop or carry out an evasive manoeuvre. Yet it is a legal requirement to have a working horn on a mtor vehicle or a bell to be fitted to a new bike. So that's what its for, to give people a warning that you are behind them. Plenty of people seem to expect to get that warning, judging by the 'why haven't you got a bell' type comments you get if you don't use it. Don't blame me, but it seems to be an underlying assumption in law that there might be occasions when giving a warning is totally appropriate & useful.
@nickc
Try not to be a complete cock.
This is – arguably – a cycling forum, isn’t it? Guess not. Carry on gammoning.
Really ? You’re confident you come across as intelligent by posting that?
This is kinda the same argument. People go apoplectic about cyclists riding two-abreast, yet will cheerfully take up the entirety of a path half a mile wide. The bell shouldn’t be necessary and wouldn’t be necessary if folk acknowledged that they weren’t the only people on the planet.
So in this scenario, is the walker supposed to jump in the hedge? Or does the cyclist stay behind them until there's a sufficiently wide bit of path (I'm not looking for an argument, just repeating yours back to you).
"ping/toot" and overtake at a safe margin without making anyone jump out of their skin at the presence of faster traffic overtaking.
Your horn is there to announce your presence to other road users.
They have added a specific short “toot” function so that cyclists don’t feel threatened when it’s used .
I utterly fail to see why that causes the vitriol seen here.
Some of you are like professionally offended.
I’m sure it’ll only be Tories that buy them anyway.
I’ve registered my interest in pre-ordering
Just so long as the cable used to wire up the tooter is of sufficient audiophile quality, I don't see what the issue is.
I wonder if it's been tested with Schrödinger's microphone?
The problem i have with this interior is it is yet more pointless fakery in the name of something that has NO application in a car.
Aircraft have removable instruments that bolt into standard sized slots for two main reasons:
1) The instruments have to be regularily inspected, serviced and calibrated. Soemthing like a radar altemeter must be accurate or you'll fly into a mountain, so being able to remove a single instrument easily is a real benefit. When was the last time you had the heater controls of your car inspected? anyone?? anyone at all??
2) Aircraft instruments are NOT made by the airframe manufacturers, so std sized bolt in instruments allows an external instrument maker to design a standard instrument that will fit in all sorts of planes. if you make say artificial horizons, then you'll want everyone to use them, not just one airframe manufacturer. So again, bolt-in standardised instrument is sensible. The controls and displays in your car are (effectively) made by the people who make the car (or by an external supplier to there individual specs). Nobody needs to put say a BMW 3 series speedometer into a Ford Mondeo, and the manufacturers use these instruments as part of their styling and atributes, ie they are NOT standardised
And yet, here are Ineos, doing some naff faux aircraft type mountings, why? It doesn't even look very good imo, and all those extra fastners are just asking to come loose and rattle.
So, for me, it's another naff marketing lead load of bull, that adds nothing to the vehicle and is actually counter to the claimed ethos of the vehicle.......
why?
Did you watch the video? Easy access for wiring in any add ons or replacements/upgrades.
I utterly fail to see why that causes the vitriol seen here.
I have to agree. A less abrasive horn for other road users not cocooned in metal. Why is that such a bad thing?
Fasteners coming loose and rattling? It’s just staying true to the spirit of the original defender 😀 The real test though will be whether it leaks - I bet it doesn’t - nothing leaks like a landy!
I invented* the quiet secondary tooter years ago, very useful for getting the attention of other humans without scaring them witless.
I didn't realise I had become a cyclist hating, er, cyclist by doing so, nobody seemed to mind as it it sounded more like a well held note from a rectum.
*I don't claim to be the only one who did so.
I like this idea now.
Is it some kind of fun noise too?
I think the idea of a gentler toot for cyclists is actually a good one.
As for the quasi military internal styling, that also makes sense. Someone pointed out a few pages back that a fossil fuelled vehicle didn't make a lot of sense. But for the prepper/camo-wearing wannabees it makes a lot of sense. An electric vehicle requires a lot of industrial infrastructure behind it and is therefore useless after the fall of civilisation - but a diesel that will run on vegetable oil will be fine.
Preppers will be setting up multiple sources of renewable energy, no?
No. They aren't interested in that sort of prepping.
but a diesel that will run on vegetable oil will be fine.
Indeed . So nothing post turn of the century pretty much then. Certainly not the grenedier unless you are gonna swap out the engine.
Weren't the (slightly incestuously rapey) preppers in a landrover killed in the end of Day of the Triffids by contaminating the diesel?
I’d drive it and toot the horn for shits and giggles 🙂
I hope it makes a “Poop-Poop” noise like Mr Toad’s car in The Wind In The Willows.
How about a "bing bong" as in "Avon calling"?
All they need now is to ensure that every repair only requires a flat-blade screw driver, an 8mm socket and a 4lb lump hammer, and I’d buy one myself.
Looks like you need allen keys too.
Anyhow they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder and my eye sees a hideous lump inside and out.
Is it some kind of fun noise too
perhaps they can change it from ‘toot’ to ‘tut’
Doesn't bode well, for the poor cyclist, out there, reading the road in front, occasional check behind, for some car to sneak up behind before giving them a TOOT, probably as close in as possible, resulting. break the concentration through to getting a start and going all wobbly.
It's not needed.
Try this out by totting cars when passing an articulated lorry and see how many friends you have waving hand signals at you.
Did you watch the video? Easy access for wiring in any add ons or replacements/upgrades.
From what I can ‘cupholder’ must be on the upgrade list then 🙂
But I can think of plenty of occasions, especially on country lanes, where being made aware of the presence of a vehicle, without being made to jump out of your skin, would be useful.
Unless you wear headphones or are hearing impaired you would hear a car behind you. On country lanes safe overtaking spots are limited, please tell why it's not a "move over" "toot"?
Why does the designer "toot" so often at cyclists? I don't think I have ever used my horn at a cyclist, why does he need to do it so often it's a fixture on a steering wheel?
Unless you wear headphones or are hearing impaired you would hear a car behind you. On country lanes safe overtaking spots are limited, please tell why it’s not a “move over” “toot”?
Rubbish. You always can't hear cars coming up behind you. Modern cars are very quiet and if you've got wind noise going on you have zero chance of hearing an apporoaching car from behind. Garmin seems to realise this or they wouldn't have made a rear radar to let you know of approaching cars. A toot will alert you to a car coming up. On UK narrow country lanes it's not always possible to leave the golden 3m clearance when passing. and its utter nonsense for a cyclist to expect a driver to hold back for a mile or more until the road widens, so sometimes drivers have to pass closer than 3m. When I do this I slow down and pass slowly. Also it should not be a ridiculous notion for cyclists to be a bit more thoughtful and on narrow country lanes to either pull over to the left to make it easier for a car to pass, or even pull in and let them pass if you know the stretch of narrow road goes on for a while. Who wants a car breathing up their arse for a mile or more?? I don't. So a gentle toot from behind alerts the cyclist to your presence and helps a safe pass for all involved.
Or you can just continue with the current silly cyclic vs driver nonsense that we so enjoy right now.
(I’m not looking for an argument, just repeating yours back to you).
But you aren't.
The post I replied to was something something headwind hearing something, it was from the point of view of the cyclist not the driver. But if you're not riding like a nob selfishly taking up all of the road then a blast (or toot) from a horn behind shouldn't be necessary.
The walkers taking up the whole of the road / path was from the point of view, again, of the cyclist not the walkers. If they're not walking like nobs selfishly taking up all of the road then the bell similarly shouldn't be necessary.
Whether you're on foot or on wheels you should be conscious that faster traffic may be behind you and you should yield when it is safe to do so. If you walk / ride to that assumption then it shouldn't matter whether there's anyone actually behind you or not as you're already progressing courteously.
On UK narrow country lanes it’s not always possible to leave the golden 3m clearance when passing. and its utter nonsense for a cyclist to expect a driver to hold back for a mile or more until the road widens, so sometimes drivers have to pass closer than 3m.
1.5 m is the minimum safe passing distance and if yo cannot give that 1.5 m then its not safe to overtake and you wait until it is.
Design of that ‘toot’ button reminds me of a Belkin Bluetooth headphone adapter I used to have. Except this has the bike icon where the play button should be.
As a result it’s a design that seems to go against convention. Why put a weird extra function in the place of an expected one?
Finding myself more on the side of the haters of the ‘toot’ button and the vehicle. Though ‘hate’ is a strong word. The whole thing is just not to my taste.
All this bile and whinging makes me want one.
Anyway, the "toot" should be a random Kenneth Williams sample.
it seems to be an underlying assumption in law that there might be occasions when giving a warning is totally appropriate & useful.
A ting of your bell before passing a narrow bridge on a a tow path with restricted visibility is a good idea - and I’ve seen not doing that result in people going for a swim!
Similarly there’s a dreadful junction near me where anyone who knows it hoots on their approach.
The Genadier is supposed to be a working vehicle (the whole interior can be hosed out for example with drain plugs in the footwells etc). I think the base model is targeted at £35k.
The 'cheery toot' button is bollocks though - the designers are not cyclists apparently and have not realised how easy it is to hear as car coming up behind.
A ting of your bell
But car horns and bicycle bells aren't equivalents. They may aim to do the same thing, but the response to them is different.
How about a “bing bong” as in “Avon calling”?
I rather like the idea of "Ding Dong" Leslie Phillips stylee.....
I'm not a fan of Jim, or the Grenadier, but I don't mind a soft toot button, I sometimes will give a tap on the horn when heading towards a cyclist/ a group of cyclists in certain circumstances just to warn them that there's something coming up behind them. I don't do it right behind because I still to look some distance ahead of me.
I've ridden a lot in Europe and a lot of drivers give a double toot to do the exact same thing. Just like I usually give a toot coming into a hairpin bend to alert other road users that something is on the road out of view.
The ‘cheery toot’ button is bollocks though – the designers are not cyclists apparently and have not realised how easy it is to hear as car coming up behind.
The designer says in the interview that they regularly use their car horn to "alert" cyclists to their presence in a car
As for the "toot" itself, no one has heard it
I imagine the first time it gets used on Jim Ratcliffe on a training ride in Monaco will be the last time it's fitted to the car
I sometimes will give a tap on the horn when heading towards a cyclist/ a group of cyclists in certain circumstances just to warn them that there’s something coming up behind them.
What response are you expecting from the people cycling?
It's a move over and let me past button, can't be anything else. If you've no intention of forcing your way past why does the cyclist even need to know you are there ?
I’ve registered my interest in pre-ordering
And there we have it. The name calling and aggression are doing a great job of putting you firmly in the exact personality band that nickc described with their first post...