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Right, I know this is a slightly incendiary topic on here at times but I'm getting fed up with the ever increasing taxation as income increases. I've just had my biggest ever tax bill - I've crept into another income layer (JUST) that has upped my % and lowered my allowances.
I understand that the state needs to be funded, but there does seem a disproportionate amount of load being placed on hard working people at the moment. I class myself as hard working. I work stupid hours and deal with very big, very complex projects. And I'm rewarded by this government making ever increasing demands on my both present and future (i.e. my pension will be taxed because it'll be over a threshold!).
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people [u]choosing[/u] to live off the state. And this is where I declare that I've no problem supporting those who are genuinly under hardship through these tough times. It's the seemingly ever increasing part of society that is just expecting the country to grant them a lifestyle.
Can't we force them to work or do something useful? Surely they could be made to do litter picking, maintaining public grounds etc. Something to add some value back to society and something that could save local government money.
I'm sure I'll get some flaming for this, but just in anticipation, I am from a very working class background, everything I have I have earned, and I've never once claimed dole or any similar benefit. I have no kids so excerpt no strain on our education system (or child benefit) and I have private health so excerpt little to no strain on the NHS.
I might go an watch Jeremy Kyle now to cheer me up.
p.s. I'll be running in the next election
Self-employed here. What's this tax you speak of?
You earn over £150,000 and you're single? Have you considered cosmetic surgery?
DD, sadly I'm employed and my employers INSIST on taking tax from me before payment. I wish they wouldn't.
You need to do what the Union leaders do and up your pension contributions as a tax dodge
Apparently it's socially acceptable if you are a hard working union leader to dodge tax in this manner
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people choosing to live off the state. And this is where I declare that I've no problem supporting those who are genuinly under hardship through these tough times. It's the seemingly ever increasing part of society that is just expecting the country to grant them a lifestyle.
Stop reading right wing tabloid newspapers and all these issues instantly disappear.
There's actually billions of pounds in unclaimed benefits, far more than that lost to benefit fraud, which in turn is massively dwarfed by that lost to tax evasion.
3 choices, vote em out, don't earn so much, or leave the country.
Number 3 worked out quite well for me!
You need to work harder to get into the very top tax band - you know the one where you can get away with paying almost nothing
This government is only doing what it has to because people decided for more than a decade to vote for a swivel-eyed loon to piss money up the wall with gay abandon.
If you didn't vote Labour, I have a great deal of sympathy for you. I totally agree with paragraph 3 onwards.
wish I had that problem 🙄
just to be clear, you're talking about politicians here? expenses scandal, anyone?We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people choosing to live off the state. And this is where I declare that I've no problem supporting those who are genuinly under hardship through these tough times. It's the seemingly ever increasing part of society that is just
I totally agree with paragraph 3 onwards.
Where's the evidence for this so-called 'benefits culture'? Apart from the Tory press saying its true so it must be.
Those at the bottom [i]can't[/i] pay. Those at the top [i]won't[/i]. So naturally, those in the middle are squeezed for more and more. So, time to get it from those at the top. If they all leave, then good riddance.
Stop reading right wing tabloid newspapers and all these issues instantly disappear.
I heard somewhere in Wales there was a woman with 23 children who lived in a castle with 100" plasma screens and gold toilets. She was on benefits
a disproportionate amount of load being placed on hard working people at the moment. I class myself as hard working.
What has hard work got to do with the amount of tax you pay? Not a lot IMHO.
Stop working so hard,
drop to a lower tax bracket,
more time to enjoy yourself.
Can't we force them to work or do something useful? Surely they could be made to do litter picking, maintaining public grounds etc. Something to add some value back to society and something that could save local government money.
You mean give them tax funded jobs, personally I am all for it.
I moved to Germany which has higher tax than the UK, creates more government employment and gives higher benefits. It also has cleaner streets, lower crime, more efficient transport and much more sporting and recreational facilities. All in all I very much feel that the higher taxes contribute to a much better life.
The biggest problem in the UK is the greed and selfishness of the rich, they are far to insular to realise the benefits of contribution to the health of wider society.
earn less money, then you'll pay less tax.
Simples.
[img] http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/files/2011/11/Benefits-pie-chart2.jp g" target="_blank">
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people choosing [s]to live off the state[/s] [b]not to pay their fair share of tax[/b]. And this is where I declare that I've no problem supporting those who are genuinly under hardship through these tough times. It's the seemingly ever increasing part of society that is just expecting the country to grant them a lifestyle.
FIFY. I don't aim this at anyone in PAYE, rather the great and good who consider themselves above tax.
Where's the evidence for this so-called 'benefits culture'?
Do you think everyone who could work tries to find it?
MrSmith hard work has everything to do with entitlement.
I work hard and I'm expected to subsidise those that do not. Doesn't seem fair. It isn't incentivising me to work hard....
You mean give them tax funded jobs, personally I am all for it.
We already have tax-funded jobs. The current government are getting rid of them.
I work hard and I'm expected to subsidise those that do not.
You are making the assumption that those in receipt of benefits are not working hard. Many people receiving benefits are in employment, but in poorly paid jobs.
most people who claim benefits are in low income jobs. fact. the biggest sector of the welfare budget goes to pensioners. fact.
LOOK. HARDLY ANY OF YOUR TAX IS USED TO SUPPORT THE [u][b]UNEMPLOYED[/b][/u]!!!
It's mostly used to support the infrastructure you need to be able to do anything, and to protect you, and to educate you, and to cure you, and to support the old who have paid in themselves to support the generation before them, and to keep roofs over the heads of the exploited working poor.
What has hard work got to do with the amount of tax you pay? Not a lot IMHO.
This.
I pay a lot less tax than the DrRS****. Do he therefore work harder than me?
your a high earner why not pay high taxes. only a small amount of your tax goes to folk who should be in work. so stop annoying yourself by thinking your paying tax to support those out of work. I can see your frustration in paying lots and lots of tax but to be honest its a position most will be envious of.
The two most irritating widespead myths in your post for me are
- the assumption that only the rich (those in top tax brackets) "work hard"
- the assumption that there is a benefits culture, and you are subsidising large numbers of lazy people who can't be bothered to work
Both are utter nonsense.
[i]there are too many people [u]choosing[/u] to live off the state. [/i]
Really? Source?
[i]It's the seemingly ever increasing part of society that is just expecting the country to grant them a lifestyle.[/i]
The word that jumps out at me is [i]seemingly[/i]. Again, based on what?
The comments on "work less" to drop a tax bracket is actually appealing to me at the moment.
So the country is cutting its own revenue sources by squeezing them too hard.
What gets my goat (well, quite a lot of things get my goat) is the fact that I stump up ever increasing tax to fund this country and my reward is to get stuff all of it back ever - because I've earned too much. So I'll likely get no state pension, the expectation will be that I'll have worked a long life to fund my retirement privately, whilst paying tax to subsidise the non-workers, who will get a state pension (funded by me), and, to top it all, I'll get taxed on my pension...
I want my tax back! It's mine. I earned it.
Do you think everyone who could work tries to find it?
No, not everyone. But where is the evidence of this vast culture of entitlement etc - any actual data? Or is it just one of those things that 'everyone knows'.
The real crime here is how craply paid many jobs are, not how cushy benefits are. There are huge companies making billions in profits who pay their ordinary staff so little that the state is basically subsidising their wages with benefits.
IIRC most benefits are actually paid to working people, not the 'spongers' beloved of the tabloids.
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society
IRONY ALERT!
Btw, why on earth anyone looks at the 'gross' column on their pay cheque I'll never understand. Just ignore it.
MrSmith hard work has everything to do with entitlement.
Yes, and there are a hell of a lot of people who work hard and don't earn much. MAJOR right winger fallacy alert!
I stump up ever increasing tax to fund this country and my reward is to get stuff all of it back ever
Wait - what? You get nothing back APART FROM A £150K A YEAR JOB? Cos that's a trivial little thing isn't it! **** me there are some whinging bastards about.
Jobs don't exist in a vacuum. They are created by the economy at large. Which is funded to a huge extend by taxation and public spending.
You're well off, you have a great job, you've got it made, stop ****ing whining 👿
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people choosing to live off the state. And this is where I declare that I've no problem supporting those who are genuinly under hardship through these tough times. It's the seemingly ever increasing part of society that is just expecting the country to grant them a lifestyle.
You need to stop buying in to the rhetoric. What sort of lifestyle do you really think people have on benefits? If it's so great join them!
879,000 people have been out of work for over a year. What percentage of them have chosen this?
I agree with the OP's sentiments although I would also emphasise that wanting to work and not being able to is the most soul destroying thing in the world. Government measures to get people back into work are lame and the people employed in job centres tend to be arrogant imbeciles (massive generalisation based on 100% of the individuals I came into contact with when I was younger).
Those choosing not to work should be up against a 'system' that ensures they have the basics to live, certainly not more than working people get. It is correct, however, that if you earn the kind of money that you intimate you are doing, then you should pay more tax. To be honest, the huge tax advantages for pensions contributions at the upper tax thresholds that people have been enjoying for years are a prime example of an unjust society.
Given that this country is run by a group of MPs that consider themselves as 'special' cases when any discussion on pay is held, it is unsurprising that we're in this state. That's where I would start in sorting all these issues - sack the lot of them, get them to re-apply for their own jobs with an acceptance that the job is a fixed salary and full-time (no directorships, consultancies or second jobs). Then we might get leadership that is devoted to the country rather than themselves.
[i]Do you think everyone who could work tries to find it? [/i]
No. There are obviously some people happy to live on benefits.
Do you think everyone who would like to work can find a job?
What gets my goat (well, quite a lot of things get my goat) is the fact that I stump up ever increasing tax to fund this country and my reward is to get stuff all of it back ever - because I've earned too much.
You make use of government-provided services all the time.
There may not be a link between hard work and taxes, but there seems to be a link between high taxes and living in a bubble.
Oh and stop moaning about tax supporting low income people. Read my original post - my issue is not with them. I'm more than happy that people are working.
I'd just like to see some of the people who are choosing a life of benefits to be pushed into work. It's time they made a contribution to society.
Surely no-one has an objection to that? (Ok this is STW so someone probably will....).
Personally I don't begrudge my taxes (nor avoid them) and enjoy the huge advantages they bring: NHS, Schools, Decent streets and roads, community facilities, police etc.
Seems like a good deal to me.
I'd just like to see some of the people who are choosing a life of benefits to be pushed into work. It's time they made a contribution to society.
It's such an insignificant amount of money as to be not worth worrying about.
Oh and stop moaning about tax supporting low income people. Read my original post - my issue is not with them. I'm more than happy that people are working.
You mean 'stop using actual facts to counter my ill-informed ranting'.
Yes there are some people who choose not to work that could but their impact on your tax burden is extremely minimal.
I'd just like to see some of the people who are choosing a life of benefits to be pushed into work. It's time they made a contribution to society.
Please provide evidence for these people who are choosing a life on benefits and the impact this has on your net income.
Maybe have a read of [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/jan/08/uk-benefit-welfare-spending ]this[/url] too.
What has hard work got to do with the amount of tax you pay? Not a lot IMHO.
This. Plenty of high earners say they deserve their salary as they work hard for long hours. Fair enough, but I'm pretty sure there's also plenty of other people working harder, longer hours, on minimum wage who would be more than happy to be in your position. I'm not advocating benefit scrounging, and the government p*sses me off with its incompetence, but have some perspective...
I want my tax back! It's mine
No it's not.
Should the government ask for its roads back?
[b]grum[/b]Where's the evidence for this so-called 'benefits culture'? Apart from the Tory press saying its true so it must be.
Get your head out of your arse and stop this attitude that any right wing views are simply made up. I work all over the country and every single City, town and village I go to is overflowing with Jeremy Kyle rejects. It's there to see, you don't have to read any newspapers. In fact, I don't read any newspapers!
[img] 
[/img]
[url= ]Click to embiggen[/url]
Get your head out of your arse and stop this attitude that any right wing views are simply made up. I work all over the country and every single City, town and village I go to is overflowing with Jeremy Kyle rejects. It's there to see, you don't have to read any newspapers. In fact, I don't read any newspapers!
Oh, I didn't believe it but now that you've provided actual anecdotal evidence 🙄
Employed bloke in annoyed at having to pay tax shocker...
Welcome to the tax-paying club.
LOOK. HARDLY ANY OF YOUR TAX IS USED TO SUPPORT THE UNEMPLOYED!!!
This was my first thought...
Do you honestly believe that even if they scrapped jobseekers allowance tomorrow your taxes would go down by even a pennie? Of course not. The money would go into funding something else or be wasted on duck ponds.
I know where you are coming from, but you need to do some proper research into where your money is spent if it bothers you that much. Or don't, ignore it, and enjoy what you earn.
Bit more detail on the tiny amount spent on benefits:
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8361851095_818227afbb.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/8361851095/ ]Benefit spending breakdown 2011-2012[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/brf/ ]brf[/url], on Flickr
Get your head out of your arse and stop this attitude that any right wing views are simply made up. I work all over the country and every single City, town and village I go to is overflowing with Jeremy Kyle rejects. It's there to see, you don't have to read any newspapers. In fact, I don't read any newspapers!
Brilliant. So, any actual data? No thought not.
The OP should just stop reading the Daily Hate (Mail) - he'll feel much better for it.....
The real crime here is how craply paid many jobs are, not how cushy benefits are. There are huge companies making billions in profits who pay their ordinary staff so little that the state is basically subsidising their wages with benefits.
Spot on.
The state is effectively subsidising the profits of large corporations who pay its workers so poorly.
After pensions the DWP's next biggest spend is on working tax credits. People in work claim far more benefits than the unemployed
LOOK, HARDLY ANY OF YOUR TAXES PAYS FOR PEOPLE OF WORKING AGE NOT TO WORK.
IT'S A TINY PART OF THE GOVERNMENT BUDGET.
Read more widely.
Job seekers' allowance payments: £4.91bn
Total spending: £694.89bn
That's 0.7% of government spending. Work out what 0.7% of your tax bill is and we'll have a whip round for you.
wow. no i don't read any newspapers, i watch jeremy kyle though...Get your head out of your arse and stop this attitude that any right wing views are simply made up. I work all over the country and every single City, town and village I go to is overflowing with Jeremy Kyle rejects. It's there to see, you don't have to read any newspapers. In fact, I don't read any newspapers
The system is a bit of a mess at the moment in that the highest marginal rate* I am aware of is on earnings just above £100,000 which is when personal allowances are withdrawn, this leads to a marginal rate of 60%. There was a good article explaining this in the Spectator the other day [url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/03/forget-50p-scrap-the-60p-tax-rate/ ]here.[/url] If you are in this bracket, I would increase my pension contributions to take myself out of it.
* I believe there might be higher ones when you factor in withdrawal of benefits/tax credits, though the government are trying to sort this.
Should we mention yet that people on lower incomes pay out a greater proportion of their incomes at taxes?
[i]After pensions the DWP's next biggest spend is on working tax credits. People in work claim far more benefits than the unemployed
[/i]
HMRC pay tax credits, not DWP, but yeah, your point is valid.
I want my tax back! It's mine
No it's not.Should the government ask for its roads back?
Hmmm, a lot of roads are funded locally, so Council Tax comes into play here. I don't want to mix taxations.
I don't think my rant is either ill informed or a rant. It's what I see, what I read. The country is in trouble, granted, and I'm happy to do my bit. I also have no issue with supporting lower income people/families, or those genuinely seeking work.
But there is a JK generation out there that is choosing to be spoon fed by the state, and this is where my gripe is. I do think we could, and should get these people working. They need to earn the benefits they're being given.
As for tax being mine, well it sort of is. If I earn £x and get taxed at y% and the government alter the tax brackets to make either y a higher number, or kick in at a lower level (or both!) then my company don't compensate me - I just lose money I was once taking home.
It's what I see, what I read.
Read more widely.
I was going to post a rant as I think your assertions are misguided - but I think there'senough of that already
But i think maybe if you are working yor nads off and don't think you are getting enough back from it then the problem is with your employer not the tax regime. I have sympathy, been there, golden handcuffs
Maybe time for a chat for your boss.
Should we mention yet that people on lower incomes pay out a greater proportion of their incomes at taxes?
Really? My maths is a little rusty but I always thought 20% was smaller then 50%?
Maybe that where my argument is wrong then. God bless taxes increasing as you earn more.
Hmmm, a lot of roads are funded locally, so Council Tax comes into play here. I don't want to mix taxations.
60% of Council tax is spend on social issues. And councils get cash from central government, which they spend on roads.
But there is a JK generation out there that is choosing to be spoon fed by the state, and this is where my gripe is.
Except that there isn't. There are a small number of individuals but the idea of three generations of benefit-dependent families is a complete myth.
As for tax being mine, well it sort of is. If I earn £x and get taxed at y% and the government alter the tax brackets to make either y a higher number, or kick in at a lower level (or both!) then my company don't compensate me - I just lose money I was once taking home.
And aren't you lucky to be in the position for this to be the case? I'd love to earn enough to pay more tax.
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people choosing to live off the state.
Maybe, if wealth as distributed more evenly throughout society, then more people at the lower end of the scale would be paid better, and then working in a lower paid job would be more attractive a proposition. And maybe, if there was actually a living wage, the state would not have to subsidise employers who like to pay the absolute bare minimum they can get away with, knowing the state will fill in the gaps.
And maybe, if people earning £150,000+ a year, in a country with rising child poverty etc, were to say 'you know what, I don't actually need all this money, I could quite comfortably live on a lot less', then the surplus money could be used to pay those at the bottom end a decent wage.
And maybe, just maybe, if those fortunate enough to be earning far more than enough to live on stopped moaning and appreciated just how ****ing lucky they are in this world, the rest of us wouldn't have to put up with them whining on about how they are 'struggling' and how 'working isn't working any more'.
The answers are all there, people just don't want to listen to them.
Really? My maths is a little rusty but I always thought 20% was smaller then 50%?Maybe that where my argument is wrong then. God bless taxes increasing as you earn more.
Taxes. Not Income Tax.
But i think maybe if you are working yor nads off and don't think you are getting enough back from it then the problem is with your employer not the tax regime. I have sympathy, been there, golden handcuffs
Nope. I feel very privileged to have a well paid job. My issue is with how what is taken from me is spent, and how that burden is increasing.
[i]But there is a JK generation out there that is choosing to be spoon fed by the state[/i]
But is there though?
To be honest, I've no objection to there being some sort of compulsion involved in entitlement to Jobseekers Allowance, ut there need to be the jobs for people to do. 'Creating' jobs just skews the market and amongst other things causes problems for people who actually want to work by, typically, lowering wages.
And it's not a new phenomenon. The debate about the deserving vs undeserving poor has been going on for a couple of hundred years...
My issue is with how what is taken from me is spent, and how that burden is increasing.
And we've already seen that how you [i]think[/i] it's being spent isn't actually how it's being spent.
But there is a JK generation out there that is choosing to be spoon fed by the state, and this is where my gripe is. I do think we could, and should get these people working. They need to earn the benefits they're being given.
What are you basing this on?
As for tax being mine, well it sort of is. If I earn £x and get taxed at y% and the government alter the tax brackets to make either y a higher number, or kick in at a lower level (or both!) then my company don't compensate me - I just lose money I was once taking home.
your deluded!
My issue is with how what is taken from me is spent, and how that burden is increasing.
And we've already seen that how you think it's being spent isn't actually how it's being spent.
Well not really.
Is any of my income tax spent supporting even one person who is unwilling to work and wants to live on benefits?
If (ha ha) the answer is Yes then my issue remains valid.
Should we mention yet that people on lower incomes pay out a greater proportion of their incomes at taxes?
You could mention that but you'd almost certainly be guilty of cherry picking data if you found reason to support it. Any argument like that hinges on what definition you use for "lower incomes" and if you adjust that figure you'd almost certainly be able to come to any conclusion you wanted. For example anyone earing say £10000 would almost certainly be paying income tax and NI at an effective rate of less than 5%, assuming NO tax credits of any kind. Given that all subsequent spending is going to be subject a maximum tax rate of 20% (this assumes that everything else is subject to VAT at 20% a simplification I know) then this gives an effective income tax, NI and VAT rate of around 23%. My own effective income tax rate (not including NI, VAT, or any other Duty) is higher than that.
As I said, cherry pick the correct statistics and you can make it say whatever you want.
Remove somebody's choice to work or not and that gives you slave labour my friend.
I suppose they could be left to starve though if they were not prepared to work for their benefits.
Ahhh but the state funeral costs would have to be funded out of your tax then. Ahhhh this is terrible.
Toss pot
We need to stop this "needy" and "gimme gimme" society where there are too many people choosing to live off the state.
As other have said, the 'workers and scroungers' scenario was invented by the government, so you have someone to blame other than the government for your ever increasing taxes. It's a myth.
going back to the OP, you say you have gone into a new bracket, but only by a very small amount? then you'll only be taxed the new rate on that very small amount. Can't see the issue really, you'll still be getting paid more won't you.
Can't we force them to work or do something useful? Surely they could be made to do litter picking, maintaining public grounds etc. Something to add some value back to society and something that could save local government money.
No because that's forced labour/slavery.
How much do people who work doing those jobs get paid? Why should anyone else be paid any less? How is that fair?
Also:
Can't [b]we[/b] force [b]them[/b]
Do you see the problem here?
Just out of interest Dr s**** what do you actually do to earn your massive wedge ?
He works hard.
Remove somebody's choice to work or not and that gives you slave labour my friend.
Poor point well made sir.
I do not want to support the JK crowd, but the government forces me too. So, by being a hard working person I am forced into the paradigm you want to avoid for the non workers.
I'll go get me shackles adjusted and report in for a whipping with the boss man.