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A while ago I eventually decided to pull 255 Conti All Season contacts on my RWD car. Today I reversed it out the garage and played around a private car park in 6 inches of snow and frozen wheel tracks in growing confidence.
My neighbours probably think I'm bonkers, but finding my feet /the braking limit in a safe environment was fun. And I didn't even need to engage the Dynamic Traction Control 🙂
Good to feel safer, that is all.
Treated the wife's corsa to 4 new cross climate 2 tyres in October. They are really good tyres well worth the cost
Yeah, I'm a fan of good quality tyres...there's quite a big difference in performance and feel to the cheap ones.
I don't know how some of the cheaper tyres are road legal, tbh.
That's no excuse for being wreckless, but it's nice to know the tyres will work with you when you get into a tricky situation.
Been running cross climate 2s since last November. Great tyres all round and especially in the current conditions.
Have just bought a cheap Ford Focus for my 40 mile (each way) commute which came with four nearly new plastic ditch finders that were frankly scary in the cold and wet.
They have been replaced with Falken All seasons and the difference is astonishing - not just for their grip on snow and ice, but the overall feel of security in poor conditions. I work shifts so at least half the year is spent driving in low temperatures.
Never skimp on tyres!
Michelin Cross Climates on my van. They can make quite a difference in these conditions!
That said, they are soft and mushy in the summer, more so than I was expecting... If I owned it myself (it's a company vehicle) I'd do what I did with my previous van, and run decent summer tyres on alloys 9 months of the year and then have a proper set of winter tyres on OEM steelies for winter... The crazy snowstorms we had back in 2018, people abandoning their cars everywhere, even all the 4x4 SUV's parked up... I was out and about in my ex Gritish Gas Caddy with Michelin Alpin 5 winter tyres on and not having a single problem!
Modern car tyre sizes don't help though to be honest... 195's on that van (current one is only 205's to be fair) are much better when it snows than the drag width tyres on many modern family cars!
Was quite entertaining yesterday watching folks trying to get off their drive or even onto their drives.
TBF, all seasons make most sense for most UK driving, especially if you're commuting early morning before it's properly warm.
Ran Conti all seasons on my old T5 year round whilst living in Munich where we had proper snow. They were fine.
Now running some AT all seasons on our Ducato.
I used to run different summer/winter ones on my old van but new van has different size, new house nowhere to store the other set, etc, etc.
Bought some Michelin Cross Climates last Feb, this week was the first time out in the snow and and ice on them and I'm actually quite impressed. Not infallible by any means but pretty good for a big heavy RWD vehicle. And they've been great in the wet all year. Can't fault them.
You can’t beat the right rubber for the job at hand. I changed from bf Goodrich’s on the Patrol to Mickey Thompson atz p3’s and was really impressed with their water and mud clearing capabilities. Problem however is that they are not so great on the road in damp conditions as the hardness of the rubber combined with the reduced contact means less grip. Guess the same is true on bikes - mud tyres in summer is daft, increases drag and reduces grip. Talking so sticky tyres… pirelli supercorsa p3’s, tyre warmers and a dry track… adhesion heaven!
Michelin Cross Climates on my van. They can make quite a difference in these conditions!
That said, they are soft and mushy in the summer, more so than I was expecting…
Really? I’ve got the CrossClimate2’s on the front of my EcoSport, they’ve been on for about a year or so, and I’m driving to and from Westbury on a regular basis, fifteen miles each way, and that hasn’t been my experience at all. I’m constantly impressed with how well the car handles with them on, a lot more confident than with the standard Goodyears the car came with.
I haven’t driven in this snow, though; I’ve been off since the beginning of the month, so when I go back for the next five days tomorrow, it’ll mostly all be gone.
Can anyone explain why all season/winter tyres have worse wet grip ratings than premium summer tyres?
Can anyone explain why all season/winter tyres have worse wet grip ratings than premium summer tyres?
I think the assumption is the tyres will never get warm, which kinda holds true in winter if you're driving to the supermarket. But differnt compounds for differnet conditions. There's a reason F1 drivers pit stop to change tyres between wets, semi-wets. semi-slicks and slicks, just ask Lewis Hammilton!
'Sport/summer' tyres will wear out faster in the dry but offer a lot more grip.
SO basicaly nost commercial tyre are a blend of dry grip and wet grip. erring on the side of wet grip.
Too soon?
Can anyone explain why all season/winter tyres have worse wet grip ratings than premium summer tyres?
I don’t know why (something to do with rubber compounds & tread pattern for shedding water presumably) but my winters for the car are definitely less grippy until it gets properly icy / snowy. The previous Bridgestones were a lot worse, these current ones (I can’t remember what brand) are only slightly worse and haven’t been tested properly in bad conditions yet.
I don’t swap them over at that mystical 7 degrees everyone talks about, I wait until the first snow or proper cold weather - it’s -6’C now and snow forecast so I might put them on tomorrow.
Basically just don't cheap out on car tyres.. conti eco or premium, uniroyal rains, Goodyear blue, etc.
Michelins if you are loaded hahaha.
I read somewhere that the grip ratings were assessed under the same conditions as summer tyres so they won't be as good.
Probably totally untrue, but i can def tell a major positive difference in the cold and damp between my goodyear ultragrip9+ winters and the pilotsport 4 summers.
It took me two hours today in -5 to swap all 4 wheels on the Z4 taking the Uniroyals off and Dunlop full winters on. A wee tip for anyone changing wheels when it's icy and your jacking up a car the side now getting load will probably slide on the ice and the car falls off the jack , I learned that lesson 20 years ago and always use a trolley jack since that day
Traction control off and sport button on now
The official tyre ratings are very limited lab test results, they don't really take into account wet cornering, aquaplaning, cold/hot temps etc. So if a tyre has really good longeviity, low noise, etc. it probably means it's crap and has no grip.
And if there's one thing you need from a tyre, it's grip.
I read somewhere that the grip ratings were assessed under the same conditions as summer tyres so they won’t be as good.
That makes sense. I only buy A rated summer tyres. I once got lumbered with some B rated tyres after Hi-Q sold me tyres they couldn't actually get and fitted "the next best thing". They had less grip than the worn out A rated tyres they replaced.
Been swapping our tyres over to M&S every autumn since we moved to the country. Including the various offspring. Equally important is learning sensible car control, not everywhere is flat and even a 4X4 is zero wheel drive when braking on a downhill!
it probably means it’s crap and has no grip.
Not really. The inclusion of Silica really changed things - it’s much more grippy AND hard wearing. My Contis and Michelins for example have a high silica content which is where the grip and longevity - and the price - comes from.
On the subject of summer tyres there’s an article some where that explains the wet grip thing - I think it’s basically a combination of the tread moving water away from the centre of the tread and the actual centre being a soft strip of continuous rubber continuously in contact with the road. This starts to go wrong as the temp drops and the compound hardens. All seasons and winters have a softer compound but lose out in the summer to a less continuous centre tread, but modern siping designs are getting closer. The Pilot super sports I had were A rated, the Conti AS were B rated. However, I’d not be going very far in todays snow test on the PSS!
Gave back the shitbox courtesy car with ditchfinder specials on today and picked up my Subaru outback with cross climates. The drive home across the moors was a so much nicer experience.
Stuck 4 cross climates on my Golf last year, a week later an HGV wrote my car off blindly moving into my lane. They were good for the week I had them. I'll put 4 on my Leon soon.
Can anyone explain why all season/winter tyres have worse wet grip ratings than premium summer tyres?
No. Rubber is an extremely complex material and there are loads of different ways to make it that change various properties that have various effects. I know enough to know I don't know much 🙂 it's more than just hard/soft durability/grip.
And then there's the tyre construction...
Someone has put a set of 18" AMG staggered wheels on eBay for a decent price that fit my car, the kind I really wanted when I got rid of the 19s. They're a rare size and even more so in 18. I could buy them, wait til the ones on my car now wear out, then put winters on those and summers on the staggered set. That would still be expensive and a level of car tartiness far in excess of anything I thought I'd ever do. I hope they are gone by the time I've saved up enough money!
MrsF put Cross Climates on in November. Got £64 off and a Lego model with them.
I was impressed in the snow on Saturday with them. They just stopped and went like there was no snow.
Had driven shit tyres on my cars for years. When I went to Germany the garage I went to to get my windscreen motor replaced were aghast that none of my tyres matched, let alone matched on the axle....
Not once was I "surprised" that the grip was shit. Probably because I saß never giving it the beans enough to find out. How hard are you pushing it on your commute to find the limits of what your tyres can do?
Besides that... The state of the roads in the UK is properly shite.... On a par with Sicily. Potholes galore and surfaces changing every few hundred yards.
I followed Mr I'm a real driver I don't need winter tires in his BMW.out the office tonight.
He varied between Rolling roadblock and all over the road. . People like him are why we can't get anywhere in this country when it snows.
My little roller skate with all seasons (vector 4s) has been fine and very stable.
Difference between Michelin premacy 4 and the ultragrip 9 winters on the Berlingo is ridiculous. It's utterly hopeless on its summer tires when the roads cold and wet.
I've summers on my car and never had an issue in the snow, but the Cross Climates are significantly better. Very noticeable.
Really? I’ve got the CrossClimate2’s on the front of my EcoSport, they’ve been on for about a year or so, and I’m driving to and from Westbury on a regular basis, fifteen miles each way, and that hasn’t been my experience at all. I’m constantly impressed with how well the car handles with them on, a lot more confident than with the standard Goodyears the car came with.
What car? Michelins always have really soft sidewalls compared to their competitors. My van is pretty heavy for a vehicle on 205's, I noticed just how soft the Michelins were immediately and I don't like them at all when its dry! They don't lack grip, but they are very soft and squishy and offer little to no feedback or feel, even in my van. The Goodyear Efficientgrips my van came on were pretty dicey in the cold and ice, but far better in the dry and offered a lot more support and feel.
Just put some Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymetric 6's on my MX5 the other week, the stiffer sidewalls and improved feel absolutely transformed the handling compared to the Uniroyal Rainsport 5's that came off! Even on such a light car, I prefer a slightly stiffer sidewall than one that is slightly too soft. When I had my BMW M2 I specifically didn't get Michelin PS4S's because they have very soft sidewalls, and on a 1.5ton car with nearly 400bhp it just means a lot of tyre roll and push on understeer rather than direct turn in in good conditions sadly.
These are of course my priorities... One thing you can't complain about with Michelin tyres is their grip. Car, Motorbike, Bicycle etc... Aside from the famous old bright green Michelin Wildslippers from the 90's that is, the ones that were made out of rubber so hard that when the nuclear holocaust comes, only them, cockroaches and Keith Richards will survive... But Michelin usually err on the side of very lightweight and supple sidewalls I have found, often to the detriment of feel, albeit on the rare occasion when they don't (Pilot Super Sports for instance!!!) they over egg the pudding and go far too far the other way, making a tyre that might as well be a run flat!
Can anyone explain why all season/winter tyres have worse wet grip ratings than premium summer tyres?
I read somewhere that the grip ratings were assessed under the same conditions as summer tyres so they won’t be as good.
Probably totally untrue, but i can def tell a major positive difference in the cold and damp between my goodyear ultragrip9+ winters and the pilotsport 4 summers.
Because of this... It isn't untrue... They are judged by the same standards.
The official tyre ratings are very limited lab test results, they don’t really take into account wet cornering, aquaplaning, cold/hot temps etc.
Also this...
An "all season" tyre has to work to some degree on snow. Working well on snow almost certainly means a more aggressive tread pattern, more siping etc. Things that mean regardless of whether wet or dry, when temps are higher, the tyre won't perform as well as a UHP "summer" tyre without such an aggressive tread pattern.
The inclusion of Silica really changed things – it’s much more grippy AND hard wearing.
Spot on... 100%... Another thing that Michelin do so well with their car and motorbike tyres... They may often lack the feel I like, but they make them last longer than all of their peers for sure. Michelin car tyres may be expensive, but often beat all their competitors in the VFM stakes simply by outlasting them by such a margin.
On the subject of summer tyres there’s an article some where that explains the wet grip thing – I think it’s basically a combination of the tread moving water away from the centre of the tread and the actual centre being a soft strip of continuous rubber continuously in contact with the road. This starts to go wrong as the temp drops and the compound hardens. All seasons and winters have a softer compound but lose out in the summer to a less continuous centre tread, but modern siping designs are getting closer. The Pilot super sports I had were A rated, the Conti AS were B rated. However, I’d not be going very far in todays snow test on the PSS!
Again, spot on... When temps are higher, say 15-20deg or above (the kind of temps tyres are tested at in a lab), tyre compound is FAR more important for wet grip and performance than the tread pattern is. Once things start getting colder, tread pattern comes more into play.
I know I work for a bicycle tyre company, but the same truths apply be it bicycle, car, motorbike etc... A conversation last year with the guy who is in charge of MTB tyre development will stay with me for a very long time...
His assertion was that there are 3 primary things that will influence how any tyre performs, those being compound, carcass construction and tread pattern... Compound is by far and away the most important, followed by construction, followed by tread pattern... That is not to say tread pattern isn't very important in some specific situations for sure, but it highlights that is most situations the carcass construction is more important, and above that the tread compound is paramount! Unfortunately I haven't really had access to them msyelf, but he has assured me that some of the prototypes they have made where combining a crazily grippy compound with tread patterns you would assume don't work in certain conditions, has proven revelationary at times!
Been swapping our tyres over to M&S every autumn since we moved to the country. Including the various offspring. Equally important is learning sensible car control, not everywhere is flat and even a 4X4 is zero wheel drive when braking on a downhill!
Absolutely sage and sensible advice, but it's also incredible just how much you can get away with in really snowy conditions with decent winter tyres fitted by contrast too... So much so I will remain firmly in the "2 sets, one for winter, the other for the other 9 months of the year" camp indefinitely I feel.
I only buy A rated summer tyres. I once got lumbered with some B rated tyres after Hi-Q sold me tyres they couldn’t actually get and fitted “the next best thing”. They had less grip than the worn out A rated tyres they replaced.
Remember that these ratings were created under laboratory conditions mate... How often are you driving in the such perfectly controllable conditions? I've driven "A" rated tyres that have scared the shit out of me, I've driven C rated tyres that I have been surprised haven't had much better ratings... Most dedicated winter tyres have C, D or even E ratings when it comes to wet grip, but I know I'd much rather be on a dedicated winter tyre in the snow than I would be even an all season tyre, or an A rated summer tyre for instance! And what is snow if not frozen water...? 🤷🏻♂️
Haha aye anyone driving a RWD BMW in the snow on summer boots wants a good owld slap.
I bought a set of Pirelli sottozero full winter RFTs on my wife’s old manual 320i and they were absolutely superb. Even in the wet as the weather got warmer they performed fantastically. Got 3 winters out of them and they were cracking in the snow. Those tyres are currently on my brothers 440i auto on their 5th winter and still going strong.. which is good cos they cost a small fortune!
I've always gone with all-seasons and occasionally winters for the last 15 years.
I put Falken Wildpeak AT3WA's on my 3.5t camper this summer. We planned to take the horse trailer out at the weekend but my wife was worrying about the frost as the parking options are mostly up a steep 200m hill. She drove to the yard early and I rode my bike to meet her, both planning to divert and check the conditions before getting jackknifed halfway up with a trailer. She reported the road was frosty and a bit slippy. When I went past an hour later the first hill had two cars crawling up with lots of wheelspin, the next car park had one 4x4 in it and when I checked the road there were three cars abandoned halfway up.
Got to the yard, turned out she'd driven all the way up with no issues, turned round and only noticed it was a tad slippy on the way back down!! I thought she'd just looked from the bottom and thought sod that!
Can anyone explain why all season/winter tyres have worse wet grip ratings than premium summer tyres?
Because of the way they're tested.
1/ the test just involves going round in circles on a wet surface rather than properly wet with standing water in places. Plenty of people on here who can report on how Cross Climates and full Winters (at least when new) go through quite deep water without aquaplaning or deflecting the steering. I've got some Summer Conti Tyres which have a better wet grip rating than either but require caution with standing water or very heavy rain - rain heavy enough to slow down anyhow due to limited visibility so not that much of an issue.
2/ Because they test all the tyres at the same teperature which is a temperature that favours the Summer tyres. I'm sure that if they wet tested all the tyres at 3°C the Winter/All Season tyres would do better.
There's quite a large range of temperatures the manufacturer can use for wet grip, and it's lower for snow tyres than normal tyres.
The grip level is calculated with 1mm water depth, which is far more applicable to nearly all driving than a deep puddle that causes the car to decelerate on one side.
The grip level is calculated with 1mm water depth, which is far more applicable to nearly all driving than a deep puddle that causes the car to decelerate on one side.
Or is it? Water running across the road, surfaces that don't drain well, places where standing water accumulates... . By the time you switch your wipers from intermittent to continuous (or your car does it for you) 1mm is wishful thinking and you'd be well advised to drive assuming you'll be driving through cms not mms at times.
Great source of information:
https://youtube.com/@tyrereviews
I have CC2s on my Passat and previously had Hankook Kinergys on my Insignia. Both excellent tyres in most UK conditions. IMHO the Hankooks were better in dry/wet
I think as others have said, I can’t see us putting anything other than all seasons on our cars now. Even the ‘old Kuga has Pirelli Verde AS and at about 3yo they aren’t highly rated these days, but with those and Haldex it didn’t even flinch through 7” of fresh snow on Tuesday morning.
And tomorrow I’ll do my second London>Gloucester>London in the BM during this cold snap, having far less anxiety of leaving London at 5am/-4 and driving across the A40 Cotswolds that I would have otherwise.
I got 31k miles from the PSS, if I only get 20k miles from the Conti’s it’d be a cost vs safety margin I’d be happy to bear.
Michelin tyres are top end prices but my Transit pick up 18 plate with 52000 miles on the clock still has two original tyres with good tread ok one was the spare tyre due to a nail near the sidewall but the two single rears managed 45000
You i agree. tyres are cheap. always. I tend to go for an A brand if possible.
i think Michelin changed the game a few years back when they did the pilot roads for motorbikes. Everyone said they woudnt work and even mags showed pictured (that were photoshoped) of them failing. Its basically what a crossclimate looks like now. Great rubber.
I agree with the comments above. things like cross climates arnt as good in summer as a summer tyre imo. The big tread blocks move so it can feel a little vague. you pays your money you takes your choice.
although i dont have a set of winters for my rwd bmw so i need a slap......
I'm half expecting to be shouted down for this, but can i put a pair of all-season tyres on the front, and leave the back as-is? (FWD)
I bought a set of Pirelli sottozero full winter RFTs on my wife’s old manual 320i and they were absolutely superb. Even in the wet as the weather got warmer they performed fantastically. Got 3 winters out of them and they were cracking in the snow. Those tyres are currently on my brothers 440i auto on their 5th winter and still going strong.. which is good cos they cost a small fortune!
I’ve had nothing but these on for years on my BMW. I do low mileage andin NE Scotland the morning temps are low enough to justify winters even in May.
CrossClimate 2 on my Tesla Model 3. Totally sure-footed in the snow and to be honest only felt marginally less grippy than the full winter tyres I used to have fitted. Picked my way around the M25 in the snow the other day without difficulty.
I've been feeling incredibly smug for the last week - finally replaced the crappy 'eco' tyres on our car (which, if I wasn't being careful enough, would spin up in mildly wet conditions on a roundabout) with CrossClimate 2s, the day before the snow came down. I hadn't planned it that well, just finally got round to doing it, and even on the drive home they felt more secure; and while everyone round here is skidding about, we've only had one or two truly hairy moments on black ice.
They're not proper winter tyres, but better even than I'd expected in this weather.
I'd never use only two winter tyres, it will bite you big time
crappy ‘eco’ tyres on our car (which, if I wasn’t being careful enough, would spin up in mildly wet conditions on a roundabout)
My dad donated me his old car a few years ago, because he was planning to trade it in originally he’d just put the cheapest ditch finders on it that he could find - it was absolutely lethal 🤣 It just went straight on everywhere.
I’ve always gone for decent quality tyres (winter or otherwise) it can make a lot of difference and it’s the only thing that sticks you to the road.
I've ras Cross-climates on my 2l TDI octavia for years now...
I got at least 30k out of the front ones.. got them replaced about 2 weeks ago as could feel the grip going (moreso in the wet).
I've not noticed ANY negavite issues with them, come wet, dry, hot or cold. Personally, i see no eason NOT to have them on all year round!
I also got my front wheel tracking sorted, and i'm getting much better MPG and the handling is nicer too!
DrP
I swap wheels over in May and then late October, summers are Bridgestones and winters Pirelli Sottozero - never had an issue on a warmer wet day with the winters, still far more grip than the summers.
I was full-on smug git on Monday night, a load of folk had failed to get up the little steep hill towards us - just drove up no problem, even stopped half way up to ask a bloke in a small van if he was alright 🙂
They see what they assume is a RWD BMW, but it's an xDrive on winters.
I’ve not noticed ANY negavite issues with them, come wet, dry, hot or cold. Personally, i see no eason NOT to have them on all year round!
The only negative I've spotted is that four Cross Climate van tyres cost me £640😳
They do appear to be quite good though....
Our Fiat Ducati ambulance prove the difference in tyres. They come with continental all seasons and they’re rubbish in most conditions. The replacements are Cross Climates and they are a completely different experience. The ambulance can actually get places!
They come with continental all seasons and they’re rubbish in most conditions
Via the tyre test site above I learned the Contis had a Silica upgrade in 2021 which improved them a lot. They also perform better when wider.
If you scroll through various testing sites this is borne out by those.
Switched the MPSS off my M2 out week before last with the temps dropping over to my winters (Conti 870p), the difference even before we started getting the cold weather in a rwd car is huge, add in a bit of snow and some ice and it changes the game completely. I was hoping for a good chunk of snow but its managed to avoid me so far with just a few dustings.
Apparently the winter tyre take up in the UK is somewhere around 2%, Probably be a lot less cars down embankments and in hedges if people just ran all season tyres as a minimum.
All seasons is all you need. In tyre tests of all season which include a winter tyre for comparison the all seasons get about 80-90% of the winter tyre performance on snow.
The big clear result from tyre tests is that summer tyres are useless on snow.
In this test - interestingly, the winter tyre came equal best overall with it's main flaw being poor dry braking.
https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2019-Auto-Express-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
All the crossclimate users - how did they fare in our (now seemingly annual) 3 months of 30 degrees? And when it got up to 40?
Feels weird saying that but they are the conditions I'm interested in knowing about now that we are getting those kind of summers - just as much as it sounds ^ like they're great in our general crap autumn/winter conditions
All the crossclimate users – how did they fare in our (now seemingly annual) 3 months of 30 degrees? And when it got up to 40?
this is not something I am concerned about in the NE Scotland
The only negative I’ve spotted is that four Cross Climate van tyres cost me £640😳
They do appear to be quite good though
£640!? I checked Asda Tyres and Blackcircles and they were cheaper than that. Fully fitted.
I kept the crossclimates on all summer… no bother at all. They’re not proper winter tyres, they’re genuine all season tyres that work well in winter.
this is not something I am concerned about in the NE Scotland
I think those 3 months were condensed into a Tuesday this year around here.
Yes missing having winter tyres and wheels for the now sold golf. Wife has cross climates on hers so I’ll use that if we have to go somewhere if there’s more snow at the weekend.
Can anyone comment if EV range has been significantly affected by putting on all seasons once their oem tyres wear out as if not that’s what I’ll do.
All the crossclimate users – how did they fare in our (now seemingly annual) 3 months of 30 degrees? And when it got up to 40?
Really don't notice them, they are designed for all year use. You might notice on back-to-back comparisons on a fast bendy road but day to day, they are fine. We had some Nokian Weatherproofs for a while, they did feel a bit squirmy in hot weather but if you google a picture you will see why! The crossclimates have a lot of rubber on the shoulder so they are also pretty good at resisting the tendency to scrub the shoulders off on roundabouts compared to other all-seasons.
£640!? I checked Asda Tyres and Blackcircles and they were cheaper than that. Fully fitted.
Premium commercial 8ply (ake LT/Light Truck) van tyres are expensive. The Falken Wildpeaks I fitted were £585, I had road biased all terrrain General Grabbers on there before but couldn't swallow the £680 cost! You can't fit the car ones.
Premium commercial 8ply (ake LT/Light Truck) van tyres are expensive. The Falken Wildpeaks I fitted were £585
Gotcha. I was just looking for my car.