[Closed] Imported car, failed mot, questions

Firstly have you double checked there isn’t one? Will be an aftermarket switch and possibly not obvious that it’s the rear fog.

Shouldn’t be anywhere near £200 to fit, on my jdm van I’ve used one of the 2 reversing lights and fitted an orange bulb, wiring and switch (probably under £20 all in). Worst case there are plenty of bolt/stick on lights that can be hooked up, again for sub £20.

I’d just give the dealer a call and see what they say, might be able to point you in the right direction.

I once had an MOT garage do work that wasn't necessary as per the MOT regs, and so reported them. Made me feel better but no discernable outcome or ramifications for the garage.

I'm sure if you did a bit of googling into hazards around importing cars this issue would come up. And to me having a car MOT'd by a seller is a total fiddle anyhow. If you were just a little crooked you'd overlook faults to enhance the market value gained with a fresh MOT and get it out the door.

My stepwgn has LED foglights in the rear bumper (replacing the rear reflectors) rather than the usual light bolted on and hanging down. Think you can get them for a lot of cars now.

Any switches on the dash that the tester may have missed?

Looks cool. But I’m surprised it didn’t also fail on the rear wheels being outside the arches.

Firstly have you double checked there isn’t one? Will be an aftermarket switch and possibly not obvious that it’s the rear fog.

Shouldn’t be anywhere near £200 to fit

Yes, had a real good look last night. Been on a Cube Facebook group and it seems it's a thing that does come up now and again.
I've looked everywhere for a switch. The place where most Cube owners seem to have theirs is a blanked switch on ours.

I guess the cost to fit is in neatly routing the wires internally and the labour involved.

I can certainly do it myself as I've fitted reversing lights etc on my van but I sort of would rather not have to. It's a pain.

I’m sure if you did a bit of googling into hazards around importing cars this issue would come up.

Yes, it does.

Looks cool. But I’m surprised it didn’t also fail on the rear wheels being outside the arches.

That's not ours btw. 😉 ours is standard.

To pass mot on the day of test you need a bolt on fog lamp (7.99 from Screwfix or Halfords), 5 metres of automotive cable and a switch (say another £5) some crimps and an hour of time. I wouldn't bother even hiding the wires or making a smart job of the switch for now. Just wire it in and get the ticket. Then spend a bit of time doing a tidy install if you feel up to it.

But as mentioned above. Do not rule out the fact there may be a fog light that the test centre just haven't found how to turn on yet!

Yeah, are you sure it's not somewhere hidden behind another switch that the tester couldn't find?
I've had a fair few imports, and quite often an OEM switch was used, but not an actual fog one (although IIRC it does need to be clear that it's for the fog)

Most JDM wagons are full of mad stuff, are you sure they're isn't a button that you thought just shot laser beams into the sky or something that's actually the fog switch?

Often reflectors or, as above, reverse lights are used to house the actual bulb. That's how I've always done mine, as opposed to one of those stick on square monstrosities.

Tbh I don't think you'll get anywhere chasing the importer 🙁

To pass mot on the day of test you need a bolt on fog lamp (7.99 from Screwfix or Halfords), 5 metres of automotive cable and a switch (say another £5) some crimps and an hour of time. I wouldn’t bother even hiding the wires or making a smart job of the switch for now. Just wire it in and get the ticket. Then spend a bit of time doing a tidy install if you feel up to it.

Yeah, I thought a bolt on one, but my partner says that the tester impressed on her that it had to be done properly in a dash switch housing etc.
I'm not sure that's true exactly but hey, at least there are some testers out there that GAS what goes through.

I've heard of some import places that use a clip-on fog light to get cars through their first MOT, they do a few cars all at once and just move the light to each car as it's being tested. Doesn't seem particularly kosher but it's down to how the MOT test rules can be interpreted.

That aside, £200 is WAY off the mark. As others have said, plenty of much cheaper options available. Quick scan of eBay suggest you should be able to sort out for about £12.

Yeah, are you sure it’s not somewhere hidden behind another switch that the tester couldn’t find?

The tester, AND me.

Most JDM wagons are full of mad stuff, are you sure they’re isn’t a button that you thought just shot laser beams into the sky or something that’s actually the fog switch?

Quite possibly! 😂

, on my jdm van I’ve used one of the 2 reversing lights and fitted an orange bulb, wiring and switch (probably under £20 all in)

Is that legal then to 'borrow' one of the reversing lights?
I think the Cube has two and it's something I've seen mentioned on the Cube Facebook pages.

I’ve heard of some import places that use a clip-on fog light to get cars through their first MOT, they do a few cars all at once and just move the light to each car as it’s being tested. Doesn’t seem particularly kosher but it’s down to how the MOT test rules can be interpreted.

Yes, this is my theory on what they must do, though obviously I wouldn't be able to tell one way or the other.

Yup, you only need 1 reversing light.
My current car's got through 12 MOTs with that setup.
I've had at least 3 other cars I ran like that as well 🙂

Didn't buy it from Keighley, did you?

PS Cubes are awesome

Are you totally sure the Test centre is correct? They may be wrong. It has been known...

Thanks Submarined. I reckon that's the route I'll have to go down. 😊👍

defo sounds like the importer fudged it through. I have had a couple of Jap imports and they all had a fog light retro fitted.

Also be aware, some garages will do it nicely and integrate it into the rear cluster (maybe replace a reverse bulb if it has two and wire accordingly). Others will just bolt on something that hangs below the rear bumper and some will cut and shut the bumper.

So if you get someone to do it, make sure you know what you are getting/happy with.

I believe the button also has to have some sort of illumination to show when the light is on.

But it is a simple job in the grand scheme of things.

Can you look at the previous MOT online to see if there is any mention? But i would definitely contact them and ask for their advice or help. I am guessing the ideal outcome would be for the garage to cover the costs of the fog light install?

I believe the button also has to have some sort of illumination to show when the light is on.

Ah yeah, so long since I looked at mine, pretty sure that's the case!

Ring the selling dealer, tell him it failed the test and ask him where the switch is for the fog light. Depending on his answer determines what you do next.

So if you get someone to do it, make sure you know what you are getting/happy with.

I believe the button also has to have some sort of illumination to show when the light is on.

Very true. Not that keen on the original importer doing the work as, what the F do they care?...

Yes I think it does have to be illuminated.

Can you look at the previous MOT online to see if there is any mention?

Yes, there isn't any mention. Passed with no advisories. It really is in good condition.

Ring the selling dealer, tell him it failed the test and ask him where the switch is for the fog light. Depending on his answer determines what you do next.

Yes, we're going to do this, though I thought email, so we've a record of what elaborate excuse he conjures up. 😂

Perhaps they thought they were doing the world a favour by keeping another one of the abominations off the road! 🙂

I would clip/blue tack one into the read window inside, run a cable and some switch or other within reach of the driver. Job Jobbed, then neaten up later.

I would also email importer and ask how it was first MOT'd without this....

A lot of cars only have one reversing and one fog light so completely fine to switch a second reversing bulb

Perhaps they thought they were doing the world a favour by keeping another one of the abominations off the road!

😳 Heathen... 😉

I would clip/blue tack one into the rear window inside

Is there anything that says they have to be outside the car? I did think about using an aftermarket brake light such as that goes at the top of your rear window but wasn't sure if it had to be a certain way or position.

my partner says that the tester impressed on her that it had to be done properly in a dash switch housing etc.

It has to be an illuminated switch with a symbol that clearly denotes its purpose and only operable when sidelights are on. I don't think the regs specify anything other than that. The rh reversing light could house it if it's a suitable height and distance from the side of the car.

A lot of cars only have one reversing and one fog light so completely fine to switch a second reversing bulb

It may be legal but its a pretty rubbish place for a fog light. Having one hanging below the bumper might look a bit rough but it is a good functional location

The ginger one has it...

Phone the importer and tell them the MOT failed as you have to have a rear fog light and neither you nor the tester can find the switch/light...
Say your probably being blind, but can they tell you where they installed it and how its operated.

3 possible outcomes
1 - They tell you where it is, job jobbed
2 - They fess up, and offer to fit/cover the cost of fitting to avoid being reported
3 - They tell you to jog on.

Good chance of 2 or 3 I'd say, but in the case of 3, I'd report to the authorities, and just find a dedicated auto sparky to fit a fog light, in the scheme of car ownership <£200ish isn't much really, what two tanks of fuel nowadays 😉

Seems to be something importers get away with I had to rewire a couple of JDM imports for a fog light. It was a while ago but I think I changed one reverse bulb for red and wired to front fog switch. It didn't have to be bright! Another time I'm I used 2 if the 4 rear brake lights as fogs again just wired to front fogs which seem to be standard on JDM. Cost next to nothing but I'm happy soldering etc.

section 4.5.3 - MOT testers hand book on actual requirements as oppose to the many made up ones on here.

Construction and use regs are one thing - the MOT is a much easier process - Personally its overly easy and cars that pass are still left in an unroadworthy state.....

Front and rear fog lamp switches may be combined or independent switches.

The switch or switches must:

be secure
be able to be operated from the normal driving position
operate the fog lamps as intended
Rear fog lamps may be combined with the rear position lamps. Front and rear fog lamps are permitted to operate independently of any other lamps or ignition systems. The function of a fog lamp must not be adversely affected by the operation of any other lamp.

Interestingly, the reverse lights aren't part of the MOT, so you could always just run that wiring to a dash switch instead of the gearbox switch and put red bulbs in.

Is that legal then to ‘borrow’ one of the reversing lights?
I think the Cube has two and it’s something I’ve seen mentioned on the Cube Facebook pages.

Yes, perfectly legal. You can also get LED bulbs that can light red/amber and also white so can be wired up to retain both reverse and fog lights - I'll be changing to this at some point.

It may be legal but its a pretty rubbish place for a fog light. Having one hanging below the bumper might look a bit rough but it is a good functional location

Eh? That makes no sense... reverse lights are usually built into the rear light clusters as are the fog lights on non JDM cars.

Under the bumper is a way worse location as it not only looks gash but is going to get covered in salt/mud etc so more likely to fail and when in use less visible than being higher higher up the body of the vehicle.

is there a fog light switch (or any switch) here? directly under the vent to the left of the four way toggle

A lot of cars only have one reversing and one fog light so completely fine to switch a second reversing bulb

It may be legal but its a pretty rubbish place for a fog light. Having one hanging below the bumper might look a bit rough but it is a good functional location

My Seat Leon is like that from the factory. Foglight on one side and reversing light on the other. I guess lots of cars are like that also.

is there a fog light switch (or any switch) here? directly under the vent to the left of the four way toggle

It's kind of like this, only with just one blank switch port. There is nothing anywhere that looks anything like a fog lamp switch and I've twiddled everything.

I even tried tapping my left foot 3 times while pulling down the sun visor and saying 'lamp' twice, just in case, but still no fog lamp 😐

Following this to see what solutions are available as my Mini has one of these:

Under the bumper is a way worse location as it not only looks gash but is going to get covered in salt/mud etc so more likely to fail and when in use less visible than being higher higher up the body of the vehicle.

It's a pain as it's all corroded, works loose on most journeys and looks terrible. Definitely go for something decent and discrete if you can.

Interestingly, the reverse lights aren’t part of the MOT, so you could always just run that wiring to a dash switch instead of the gearbox switch and put red bulbs in.

Oh really? The MOT Inspection Manual says different (for cars first used on or after 1st September 2009, anyway):
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-6-1

Interestingly, the reverse lights aren’t part of the MOT

I don't think that's true.

4.6.1. Condition and operation
You must inspect all reversing lamps fitted to vehicles first used from 1 September 2009 other than quadricycles and three-wheeled vehicles.

At least one reversing lamp must be fitted.

and looks terrible. Definitely go for something decent and discrete if you can.

I suppose, if you prioritise how your lights look rather than how they function.

IMO fog lights should be well separated from brake lights. I know plenty of manufacturers don't do it but lighting clusters seem to be becoming a style thing these days, rather than fit for purpose. There are some ridiculous ones out there now. Maybe it's a plan to get BMW drivers to want to use the indicators 🙂

If you're going to put a red bulb in one of your reverse lamp holders, make sure it's the - literal - right one. I had to swap my fog and reverse lamps over when I brought my car to Europe.

That’s not ours btw. 😉 ours is standard.

Kayak and partner heading down to the MOT station with new lights 😉🤣🙃

Fog light regulations - link

In summary can be central or RH side, must be between 250mm and 1000mm above ground, so back window's no good.

Must also have a tell tale i.e. warning light so that you don't drive around with it on all the time (unless it's a BMW 🙂 )

Also (strictly) needs an approval mark.

Guess the question kayak needs to ask him self is ....does he want an mot or does he want a car to sell commercially in the UK market.

At the end of the day it's a Japanese car not a UK car.

@murray once again, with feeling, those are Construction and Use related regs, NOT MOT regs which are different. Trail_Rat has already linked to the relevant required standards required to pass an MOT.

Of course C&U are more onerous and the standard to be aimed for but in the short term if it meets MOT standards then it's "good enough".

Ok, sorry about the bad info on the reverse lights!
I was just surprised that my van passed without them - the guy said reverse lights aren't required for MOT. However, it's a 1992 so there ya go.

To be fair, I have actually fitted reverse lights since then as they're handy.

I'd put something like this on for the MOT, wired with a switch from the nearest source of power. 30 minutes work once a year if you don't want it there all the time.

Guess the question kayak needs to ask him self is ….does he want an mot or does he want a car to sell commercially in the UK market.

I want a car that's road legal and has an mot.

I’d put something like this on for the MOT,

Matches the shape of the car that. Nice 😉

Importer might well have lashed it up just for the first test- mine was all done properly before it was registered but not everyone does that. Nothing legally wrong with that I think? If I'm right, that could give it a legit MOT on the day and then they sell the car without the light but with a legit pass.

submarined
Full Member

Most JDM wagons are full of mad stuff, are you sure they’re isn’t a button that you thought just shot laser beams into the sky or something that’s actually the fog switch?

I was so excited when I found out that the final mystery button operates the parking-stick-with-an-led-on-thingy. The wiring was broken so I'd had 2 mysteries to solve but a quick fix and... stick goes up, stick goes down. Stick goes up, stick goes down. I watched it for way longer than I should have. Then I took a video and showed it to other people. Then I went round to my mates' place and showed him.

Standard practice to fit aftermarket fog lights on JDM imports. Anyone who deals with them will be well aware of it.

... then they sell the car without the light but with a legit pass.

The Mot just tests the roadworthiness of the vehicle. If it becomes unroadworthy and you know its unroadworthy, then it's still illegal regardless of cert, as far as I understand it anyway.

When in doubt always remember most fog lights are used incorrectly anyway.

How far away is the importer? Can you take it to them for its MOT?

Warwick-That London.
Nah...

So now you've got me on ebay looking for a Nissan Cube. I haven't seen one for years. The facelift version is actually quite presentable.

I wonder what they'd be like as a van with all rear seats removed.

Just go for the S-Cargo

But I’m surprised it didn’t also fail on the rear wheels being outside the arches

Point to make here is that it has to be the tread of the tyre which is within the bodywork, not the sidewalls or wheels, so that's perfectly ok.
I know the guy who used to own that car in the OP.

So now you’ve got me on ebay looking for a Nissan Cube. I haven’t seen one for years. The facelift version is actually quite presentable.

I wonder what they’d be like as a van with all rear seats removed.

The Cube is the small 5 seat one, the Cubed is the 7 seat LWB one. Often Cubed are labelled as Cube in adverts.
They aren't massive as they are based on a Micra IIRC, but I really want one one day, I just love the look of them. And column shift auto -what's not to like??

Didn’t buy it from Keighley, did you?

I was thinking the same thing - that place with the "questionable" reputation, are we thinking of the same place??

Interesting read here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1808148&i=40

PS Cubes are awesome

Why yes, they really are.

I would only get one in white or mint or another loud color, they look awfully dull in grey.

Point to make here is that it has to be the tread of the tyre which is within the bodywork, not the sidewalls or wheels, so that’s perfectly ok.

Ok or not stretched tires are pretty naff.

And column shift auto -what’s not to like??

I absolutely love driving it to be honest.
It's so chilled to drive. You just sort of waft about and I reckon the auto gearbox makes you less antsy on the roads.

Very weird though driving an automatic after a manual. Never feels like you're quite in control of making it go.

Most JDM wagons are full of mad stuff

Made me think of the factory fitted explosive flare mine came with in the footwell. Not sure if I'd ever need it unless lost at sea.

Ok or not stretched tires are pretty naff.

Each to their own. I think most of the cars on the road are naff, including the ones I own.

There are rear light clusters available on eBay/parts places, if you had a UK spec one would it not have a red light space for the foglight? Running a wire to the boot area is a piece of cake (on many cars anyway). run a wire from that swtich blank behind the dash, out of the driver's footwell then tuck it underneath the door sill trim all the way to the back of the car and behind the boot liner. Really quick when you get the hang of it. Get some trim removal tools and find out how Nissan do their trim fastening.

Ok or not stretched tires are pretty naff.

Yes they are. Let me see, how can I make my car as uncomfortable and delicate as possible? I know...!

Yes they are. Let me see, how can I make my car as uncomfortable and delicate as possible? I know…!

Yes I agree, they should all buy homogenous grey SUVs to fit in with everyone else, god forbid they should have personal taste and creativity with their passion. 🙄

To be fair he has a point, maybe in a country with actual first world roads but here? Nah, I like not replacing tyres or buggering rims all the time.

Not averse to a bit of stretch either, just don't see the point when it's going to get knackered in short order.

There's style and there is using things outside of their design parameters ,making the item less useful , less durable with no upside.

Stretched tires falls under the latter.

Maybe put a sticker on your homogenous grey box if your transport needs a personality.

But then I did get a 6inch nail through the sidewall of my 4 day old non stretched tire on Tuesday so I see stretching as doubly pointless .

I'd go with lowered and messed with suspension as well. not just an unfordable ride, make the handling verge on dangerous and can barely negotiate a speedhump. I don't get it. Pretty certain in nearly all cases not notified to insurance company so likely driving without insurance. I saw a petition protesting about a forthcoming law that would require modded vehicles to be tested (I think this is already the case in Spain). Can't come soon enough.

It's all a bit academic - this not my the OPs cube in any case.

Posting as I've always through Cubes look great. The mini-japmobiles make great use of the space they take up and have some character.

Pretty certain in nearly all cases not notified to insurance company so likely driving without insurance. I saw a petition protesting about a forthcoming law that would require modded vehicles to be tested (I think this is already the case in Spain). Can’t come soon enough.

So you’re assuming, with no evidence, that they are driving illegally? Rubbish. When I modded my cars I found it quite easy to find insurance with all mods declared and it wasn’t expensive. You’ll find a lot of specialist insurance companies get business through the enthusiasts forums so can offer decent rates - most people who do these sorts of mods have spent a lot of money on them and a bit more on insurance isn’t going to be much of a bother. Have a look at how much a set of polished genuine split rim BBS alloy wheels (very popular in a lot of car scenes) go for, it’ll make your eyes water. Add on a set of Yokohamas and it’s mental.
They also look after their cars very well, unlike most “standard” drivers so are often seen as lower risk than you’d expect to the specialist insurers. My last modded car was lowered, specialist racing suspension, uprated boost pressures, bigger wheels with a mild stretch to the tyres, uprated and bigger stainless exhaust. All declared to the insurance company and cost me about £100 extra a year.

And that forthcoming law which you talk about is a huge risk to the massive UK motorsport industry, something in which we lead the world in. Tens of thousands of companies and jobs could be at risk. We have a long heritage in engineering performance and race cars, the vast majority of which are taxed and MOTd. And it might even apply to track only cars too.

There’s style and there is using things outside of their design parameters ,making the item less useful , less durable with no upside. Stretched tires falls under the latter.

Stretched tyres are no less durable than normal tyres as long as they aren’t too extreme. And police forces do check them and people are pulled for it regularly. Most of the extreme stretch photos you’ll see are for shows only as the wheels are generally so expensive most people wouldn’t risk them too far on the roads anyway.
Stretch tyres do have a use in drifting anyway, as they stiffen the tyre sidewalls to make the drift easier to start, allows easier control during the drift.

But hey, you’re all allowed to comment on something you clearly know nothing about, so crack on Boomer. 😂😂

I'll take your comments on board next time I'm drifting to the shops in my car.

Ha! Had to Google stretched tyres as not heard of the term before.

Cunning idea that.

I had to rig up some yellow indicators for an MOT on a Chevy Camaro I had back in the 90's... had wires literally taped down the sides of the car just to get it through. It passed.

Ironically I worked in the place that insisted I fitted the indicators. The year after I took it to another place (I didn't work at) and they just passed it with the red flashing brake/side lights! (Was an old 70's Camaro.)

At the end of the day it’s a Japanese car not a UK car.

True, to an extent, but we’re talking details, not major structural differences, like the steering wheel and everything else being on the other side of the cockpit, like every other European car…

Stretch tyres do have a use in drifting anyway, as they stiffen the tyre sidewalls to make the drift easier to start, allows easier control during the drift.

But hey, you’re all allowed to comment on something you clearly know nothing about, so crack on Boomer

Yeah, like everyone drifts their modded cars on public roads and supermarket car parks! They’re a bloody stupid idea, and even worse with extreme amounts of positive camber applied, on a car being driven on regular roads; low-profile run-flats are truly horrid things to drive on, something that I do actually know something about!

You really do come across as smug, patronising, and condescending, though. #rollseyes

Anyone who modifies a vehicle for use on road to make it less safe (easier to lose grip being a prime example, blacking out windows and lights being another) is a ****.

Alternatively people may have hobbies - such as autocross, drifting, etc. - and may modify their vehicles to be better suited to those hobbies compared to an off-the-assembly-line-vehicle whilst remaining within the legal requirements for a roadworthy vehicle. The alternative would be that such hobbyists are only allowed to use a separate event-only vehicle which seems a bit elitist to me.

And who decides what's "safe" anyway? It is insanely easy to lose rear traction in my car, even with all the driver aids switched on, to the point where I think a lot of modified cars would struggle to do so as easily. And yet mine is entirely unmodified and as approved for use on UK roads by whatever certifying body does such things. Is the owner of a modified mx5 a bigger **** than me? Specifically in terms of how dangerous their car is rather than personally 😅

Anyone who modifies a vehicle for use on road to make it less safe (easier to lose grip being a prime example, blacking out windows and lights being another) is a ****.

I agree, I assume you reserve the same ire for those who remove payload bulkheads from vans and are an advocate of crash safety standards for camper vans.

I don't have a problem with window tints, sun strips and such, yes they can be too much (I saw some twunt with an iridescent red windscreen the other day) and that should absolutely be clamped down on but in some cases they improve safety despite what you may think.

Interestingly the same legislation can be used against e-bikes.

https://cyclingindustry.news/transport-regulatory-review-proposes-new-offences-on-vehicle-tampering/

I like modified cars and I like modifying cars but stretched tyres definitely trigger me a bit. They do have their place but it's very specific and not usually applicable for the road. But I know I cut people slack for doing other equivalent things like really slamming a car or excessive camber so, it's likely i'm being a dick.

I assume you reserve the same ire for those who remove payload bulkheads from vans and are an advocate of crash safety standards for camper vans.

Years ago I was sent on an evasive driving course and (the dull non-handbake turney) part of it was reveiewing risk scenarios. The film of loads in a crash was disturbing, so yes I'm aware of the dangers.

But I'm less bothered about folk endagering themselves with some shonky ikea cupboards in a lifestyle veeehicle than I am them fitting inappropriate wheels that endanger me too.

Does this look like the sort of thing I need?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07Q5ZGF25/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_D3RZGCNGQB9ZVXE4N27C?_encoding=UTF8&psc= 1">Wiring kit on Amazon

It depends on how neat you want the installation and seeing your woodwork it'll need to be neat 🙂
You'll probably buy the bits for around the same amount and then you'll need a few crimps and a crimper, but you'd need crimps and a crimper to get the bought assembly to length without a coil of excess cable.
A single 21W bulb should be okay without a relay providing that you use minimum 5A cable and switch and a 3A fuse. Get advice on this if you're unsure.
You can pull a lower current using a red LED (e.g. https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/fog-light-bulbs/products/2x-ba15s-red-stop-fog-led-4014-30-smd-brake-rear-light-glb382-p21w-classic ) which are available in conventional bulb-holder fittings.
LEDs aren't e-marked for use here but only LED headlamp bulbs are targeted on the MoT (LED headlamp assemblies are different).
Removing a reversing lamp bulb (if that's the route you're using) can throw a dashboard error, so check for this

really slamming a car or excessive camber

I like cars but I cannot fathom why people do this. It just looks broken.

Different strokes for different folks. Some really like “low and slow”

molgrips
Full Member

I like cars but I cannot fathom why people do this. It just looks broken.

I don't like it but I can appreciate when other people like things.

I don’t like it but I can appreciate when other people like things.

It’s a pity that other people are so blinkered.

Cheers @timba. I'll have a look. 👍