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Horse dancing is cruel.
How so? Just horse dancing, or you widening that to 3 day eventing and show jumping?
Know a few people locally involved in various horsey events, and dressage seems the least cruel/dangerous to the animal to me.
Using one to herd sheep?
Yeah, that's not really the same though is it? You're essentially using what the dog wants to do to your advantage. There's nothing natural about a horse performing dressage. I'd rather see the Olympic One Man and his Dog, over it
There’s nothing natural about a horse performing dressage.
Why do you say that? How is that less natural than a dog learning to perform on demand from their handler?
Dressage is inherently cruel the horse is forced into unnatural movements and postures that are damaging to the horse
https://horseracingsense.com/is-dressage-cruel-horses-sport-training/
What you see at Crufts is about as relevant to modern 'sport' as horse dancing. In fact, why isn't making dogs jump over stuff and go through tubes an Olympic sport?
Its basically the same thing but less cruel as the dogs don't have to carry someone called Sebastian or Tabatha and they don't get turned into glue when they're done. I don't think they do, anyway.
unnatural movements
Try and catch a horse or pony that has lived wild. The movements they are capable are insane. Trying to predict which way they and their legs might go next is impossible. Which dressage move or posture do you think has no basis in a horses natural movement? It's just the timing and rhythm (and moving on demand) that is trained and unnatural.
Dressage isn't understood, and inverse snobbery makes it an easy target. I have to admit, I have to fight my prejudices when it comes to any of the sailing... my instinct is to dismiss it all as a rich persons past time rather than a sport... but I suspect that's my own lack of knowledge, understanding, and try to reserve judgement (often fail though).
Loving the Olympics.
Running, jumping, throwing, swimming, gymnastics etc all good.
Ping pong though? That's what children do at youth club, might as well have subuteo or air hockey.
I am starting a campaign to introduce Ker-plunk as an Olympic sport though. That would be awesome and I'd have a chance😂🤔
Read the link I provided
And thats from another cruel sport - horse racing
Whats so cruel about sitting on somethings back and whipping it to within an inch of its life, before shooting it?
Bloody snowflakes!
Read the link I provided
Many horses compete at the highest level of dressage and are not treated cruelly. However, some dressage competitions and training are cruel. Harmful conditions arise through forceful and rapid training methods. But, training practiced with patience and care is beneficial for you and your horse.
Bad trainers. Same with anything where an animal needs training.
Remember the bias inherent in that link - thats from the horse racing fratenity - another cruel pastime.
Ping pong though? That’s what children do at youth club, might as well have subuteo or air hockey.
Have you watched any at the olympics? It's utterly bonkers.
Have you watched any at the olympics? It’s utterly bonkers
It's a shame they made the ball larger to slow it down for telly.
Running, jumping, throwing, swimming, gymnastics etc all good.
Ping pong though? That’s what children do at youth club
Kids tend to enjoy most of those other things you mention as well you know. Add in riding bikes, shooting & boats and you've pretty much covered all the olympic events!!
They could bring it up to date and make it more relevant to kids by maybe replacing the shot put with throwing a half-knacker through a greenhouse?
I'm generally not a huge fan of sports which are based primarily on judges. I do accept that this is largely because of my own prejudices - however I think we should all generally be able to watch a sport with a basic understanding of the rules and know who won.
so you only want the wealthiest people (or thier kids), to have the privilege of training for Olympic level competition? or perhaps you'd rather see a greater influence of corporate sponsors so that only the most TV friendly sports (or athletes) get funding?I think I’d settle for rules that don’t allow national funding (Like the Lottery for example) if you to compete in the Olympics? Fine, knock yourself out, but it shouldn’t be used as a national flag shagging competition while whole nation’s folks are getting fatter and funding for local sports is being cut.
I think it was Finland that pretty much decided that they weren’t going to do this anymore a few years back. They never win medals anymore, but at least their population aren’t turning into literal wee human globes on legs
They aren't mutually exclusive. We have managed to screw up sports funding by linking it to medals but that's just because those responsible are idiots and there is little joined-up thinking between gov depts.
You do realise BIles is actually not doing some moves she is capable of because they get marked down
It’s just the timing and rhythm (and moving on demand) that is trained and unnatural.
Sure, but I don't see many nosebands and close-martingales on wild horses.
I think people either don’t understand or choose to ignore that all sports require an element of judging. Even the simplest sports like the 100 meters needs people to check the equipment used and decide whether it offers an advantage, not to mention whether someone false started or not.
Most people choose to ignore this point because it is a very, very bad one.
I am sure the internet has invented a name for the fallacy you are [in]advertently promulgating. But I don't know the name, so let's call it the "fish knife up your bum" fallacy. You know the one, someone says "it is dangerous to stick a knife blade up your bum" and someone else chimes in with "Ha! What about a fish knife eh? Got you there!"
And so on.
Horse dancing is cruel.
Agreed. The open interpretive free jazz-dance section is a particularly tough watch.
so you only want the wealthiest people (or thier kids), to have the privilege of training for Olympic level competition?
You're describing the current situation anyway, there are literally millions of folk who aren't wealthy enough now to get anywhere near local sport let alone national or international level. If wealthy people want to **** about with bats and running, horses and what not; cool, let them get on with it. we don't have to put it on the telly though.
The sailing needs to go. Getting blown around a pond by the wind is hardly a test of physical ability. Should be replaced by Hungry Hippos.
And Kayaking? It's just floating down a river, a man made river ffs.
Love the fighting bee keepers though.
If wealthy people want to **** about with bats and running, horses and what not; cool, let them get on with it. we don’t have to put it on the telly though.
Not really a proper representation of the British team is it, plenty have come from poor backgrounds with families making sacrifices to get them there, for example the girl who won silver today. Two years in a caravan in Manchester.
Give over! Caravanning definitely isn't an Olympic sport
plenty have come from poor backgrounds with families making sacrifices to get them there
Yeah sure I'm not denying there are heart-warming life affirming stories out there. But there's also no denying that China are abusing kids on their gymnastic programme (as have the US team for that matter) in order to win medals to promote (as they see it) their international standing.
When you strip it all back to the very basics, the Olympics is an International dick measuring completion using genetic freaks. and that's more than a little bit weird...But at least it's not blowing each other to smithereens, so there's that I suppose.
I can't wait for you guy's reactions when the climbing comes on.
on the riches needed for equipment - its no so much poor people in rich countries that are disadvantaged although they clearly are - its the people in poor countries.
Say Cameroon - of course they can put a football team together as you only need a ball and some jumpers to practice adn gain skills but cycling? horse riding? How does a ordinary kid afford a competitive bicycle. Or a horse to ride?
They've all got horses. Thats why we've just cut the aid budget. Just so we can get a look in at the horse dancing again since the bloody Namibians took over
I am sure the internet has invented a name for the fallacy you are [in]advertently promulgating. But I don’t know the name, so let’s call it the “fish knife up your bum” fallacy. You know the one, someone says “it is dangerous to stick a knife blade up your bum” and someone else chimes in with “Ha! What about a fish knife eh? Got you there!”
I'm sure that makes sense in your head but for the rest of us I'm afraid it's gibberish.
But anyway, you don't agree that all sports need judges?
Do you not agree that it's a spectrum where the judges have the least influence to the most? Even weightlifting has judges who will disallow successful lifts because, during it's execution, there was an infringement (most often it's the elbow having a barely perceptible bend, sometimes even when the athlete literally can't straighten their elbow any more).
But OK, no more sports that involve judges. How do you determine how 'pure' a sport is so that it should be allowed into the Olympics? Why do you choose this cut off rather than another?
Having done a bit of horse dancing in the past as my wife is a horsist and knowing a fair few it can be cruel but only in the same way owning a dog and training it can be.
It's a partnership. You are sat on 750kg of muscle. You build up trust over a long period of time and work together.
Most of the dressage work and schooling I did was to improve the horses movement. Think of it like pilates or yoga. Working in circles improves flexibility. You encourage good posture and good movement. It also keeps them mentally stimulated.
It has now got to the point where many riders don't own the horse they compete on as it is simply too expensive. You need several as not all will be up to the standard of top level competition. You'll likely have retired horses and young horses too.
That said, I know what they are doing and how hard it is. It is still incredibly subtle and boring to watch. Better replaced with something like liberty work.
@Bruce. Think through how it would work if the involvement of the judges in diving was the same as their involvement in weightlifting.
Say Cameroon – of course they can put a football team together as you only need a ball and some jumpers to practice adn gain skills but cycling? horse riding? How does a ordinary kid afford a competitive bicycle. Or a horse to ride?
I doubt that in the grand scheme of costs the bike is the significant barrier. Travel, accom, time to train, coaching etc all apply too. Not to mention if you want to win Olympic cycling medals you'll stand the best chance on the track - so you'll need a velodrome which makes it fairly inaccessible for even many UK kids!
fish knife up your bum” fallacy. You know the one, someone says “it is dangerous to stick a knife blade up your bum” and someone else chimes in with “Ha! What about a fish knife eh? Got you there!”
Thanks it that! I lol'd.
Think through how it would work if the involvement of the judges in diving was the same as their involvement in weightlifting.
I'm still no clearer honestly
@Bruce. Think through how it would work if the involvement of the judges in diving was the same as their involvement in weightlifting.
So what is your criteria for what should and shouldn't be an Olympic sport?
I guess from what you've said Diving and Gymnastics are out. Weightlifting is apparently in even though the judges can decide who does and doesn't win.
What about boxing? Sure, you can win by a knockout but more often it's going to come down to the judges.
I'm interested in what you've got to say since you seem to consider yourself an authority on what should and shouldn't be considered a real sport.
How do you feel you're qualified to judge what a real sport is? What's your experience of elite level competition?
Having done a bit of horse dancing in the past as my wife is a horsist and knowing a fair few it can be cruel but only in the same way owning a dog and training it can be.
Oh, I've always wanted to ask someone who was in the know...
Is the horse "dancing" to the music - ie. its aware of the rhythm and is moving in response to the music, or is the rider stimulating the movements - ie. could the horse perform the same in silence?
I doubt that in the grand scheme of costs the bike is the significant barrier.
You're probably right. A 3k carbon time trial bike is within easy reach to most minimum wage families in Europe. Certainly shouldn't be a problem for those living hand to mouth in developing countries.
Why not get all Olympic athletes riding the cheapest Triban road bike from Decathlon?
I wonder if the Queen's daughter being a member of the IOC might explain the inclusion of the horse dancing?
You’re probably right. A 3k carbon time trial bike is within easy reach to most minimum wage families in Europe. Certainly shouldn’t be a problem for those living hand to mouth in developing countries
Except you don't start on a £3k bike, you can do fast times on old school road bikes, then you get sponsored because you have talent. It might be harder but it can be done. In developing countries the issue is less the bikes but more the infrastructure, roads, available racing and local culture not being pro cycling
Why not get all Olympic athletes riding the cheapest Triban road bike from Decathlon?
Why not get snowboarders using a bit of ply from the tip
@Bruce and @nickc, of judges and knives...
Firstly, lets leave what my criteria are for another post, and stick to why @Bruce's point is a bad one.
There is this thing called "judging". It takes many forms, and the role it plays in different sports varies enormously. So the tl;dr version is:
It is wrong to argue that any problem or issue that arises with one particular judging situation must apply to all judging situations, so that if the problems with that situation make it fail [whatever your test is for an acceptable sport] then all sports fail that test. You have to look at it on a sport-by-sport basis.
The longer version:
Firstly lets leave aside pre-competition testing for drugs, equipment compliance etc. and concentrate on during (or shortly thereafter) competition judging.
In some sports the situations that require judging are often easy to determine, so easy that in most situations you or I are as able to judge them as an expert in the discipline (assuming we acquaint ourselves with the rules). Mostly we can judge whether a ball is in or out, or whether a lifter straightened their arms and stood still (I think that is the gist of the rule but I am no weightlifting expert).
In those types of cases there will always be borderline cases but most cases are not borderline. Raising difficult borderline cases as reasons a rule is bad, or a sport unfair, is an example of a different fallacy the internet probably also has a name for. BTW I used to work in the law, practising it and teaching it, also judging whether people were competent at legal skills, so I have had cause to think about this kind of stuff in some depth.
So we can all determine that Pidders won the Olympic XC, even though there were judges ready to assess whether he took a short cut, crossed the line after another rider did or elbowed MVdP in the eye (he may have looked like someone beat him up, but that was self-inflicted). Most mtb xc results do not depend on any judges' decisions, all the way down the field.
The judging in other sports is quite different. Every performance must be judged and every result depends on a judgment of the kind most of us are unable to make. The dives of Daly and Lee, and Yuan and Isen respectively looked perfect to me, I wouldn't have a clue how to go about scoring them, even though I am sure the criteria for doing so are published and I could look them up if I wanted to.
This is not a difference of degree, it is a difference of category. (Though again I am sure there are sports where that distinction is a bit blurry, as to which see above.)
So with knives. A carving knife is designed to slice cleanly through flesh at precisely the point you choose, and to go precisely where you direct it (until it hits bone anyhow). By contrast a fish knife is intended to separate flakes of fish from each other, and the bone, without cutting through them, and to feel its way between the different tissues, so that you end up with a tasty morsel of fish with no bone in it on your fork. A carving knife would not be good at that. This property of a fish knife is useful if you are intent on sticking it up your bum, though to be honest that is not advised, but annoying when you are trying to slice through a steamed new potato with one. Fish knives and carving knives are both knves, but actually quite different, with different upsides and downsides, so you cannot impute all the difficulties you find with one on to the other.
I wonder if the Queen’s daughter being a member of the IOC might explain the inclusion of the horse dancing?
Dressage was introduced before the queen was born, never mind Anne. Also… it wasn’t at the instigation of the Brits, never mind our Royals… we didn’t even enter for the first few decades.
In some sports the situations that require judging are often easy to determine, so easy that in most situations you or I (think we) are as able to judge them as an expert in the discipline
Armchair referees and judges the world over agree with you.
Did any of you read my link? If you want to do well in a judged performance sport, go after someone who is good and go late in the order. Diving randomises first dive order but does not change the order with subsequent rounds. The analysis shows inherent bias despite best efforts.
By contrast clay shooting. You either hit or (me) miss. Count the number of hits. Other shooting is also objective. Holes in a target.
Those judges are experts, I am in no doubt. But bias is inevitable.
But bias is inevitable.
Yup.
That wasn’t what they were arguing about. Refereeing can produce biased judgments as well. That can effect the final result in sports without “judges”.
The judging in other sports is quite different. Every performance must be judged and every result depends on a judgment of the kind most of us are unable to make.
OK, so do you consider yourself sufficiently qualified to judge whether an aggressive move in a bunch sprint is legal or not?
Would you be able to score a boxing, judo, or tkd match?
How about sailing, reckon you'd be able to judge that without reading the rules?
Rugby 7s, handball, football, basketball, baseball?
The list of sports you would have in your Olympics is getting pretty short.
I love how every 4 years (or so) the same people seem to need to have 'sport' and the breadth of activities that fall under the umbrella of sport and 'the olympics' and the point of it being a broad and inclusive celebration of all sport, and just a celebration, (and women) explained to them.
Perhaps they should bookmark this thread and we can use the internet for something else next time
🙂
Today’s BBC highlight show was great. I wouldn’t have wanted any of those sports missing.
@Bruce:
The list of sports you would have in your Olympics is getting pretty short.
For heavens sake, I am not saying your conclusion is a bad one, I am saying your argument supporting that conclusion is a bad argument. I don't have strong views on what should be in the Olympics, and I am not offering any. I explained why simply stating, as you did, that "well they all involve judging" is a very weak argument against the opinions of those who think certain "judged" (maybe "scored" would be a better word) sports like diving, ice-dancing and slopestyle shouldn't be in the Olympics whereas two of them are. Such sports can be distinguished, quite easily, from other sports like sailing and cycling strictly in terms of their relationship with the judging process and the effect of that on the sporting outcome. I explained how that worked. Your interesting examples demonstrate the nuanced range of relationships sports have with the judging process but do not alter any of this.
Is every mark-rounding in sailing a borderline issue only an expert could assess? Every port/starboard encounter? Every luffing manoevre? Does every bunch sprint involve a controversy that requires post-race judging, does every road race even involve a bunch sprint? No. Can you get an outcome in a dinghy race even if no boat suffers a penalty, or in a bike race even if the commissaires see no issues so their role is a formality? Yes. Boxing and similar sports which require judging are interesting, in a category of their own really. The judging is "was it a scoring punch/kick/whatever" not "textbook left hook, that was a 9, possibly a 9.1". You and I could spot the more obvious scoring punches if we read the rules (not the more borderline ones, but I have dealt with that). Again, what you do with this distinction is up to you.
By contrast every single dive requires judging by a panel of judges who have to pay equal attention to each. They must judge for there to be a winner, and it isn't yes/no judging. In a sense, every judgment in such sports is borderline, if not a borderline 9.1 then a borderline 6.7 etc. (It is around 50 years since I sailed competitively, I gather the rules have changed, but I hope you get the idea.)
Having said all this, I do think that scoring teams on how well they ruck or scrummage would be no less unfathomable than the present way rugby appears to deal with it. No doubt this is why the IOC decided that the simpler, purer sevens game was better suited to the Olympics;)
mark-rounding in sailing a borderline issue only an expert could assess? Every port/starboard encounter? Every luffing manoevre?
Luffing? Schoolboy error...
Mornington Crescent!
If your argument boils down to, 'you can categorize sports (although with some grey areas) based on how they are scored' then there's not really much to argue about.
What I object to is there seem to be plenty of people out there (most of whom have very little idea what high level sport is like) who like to push the idea that judged events aren't 'real sports' worthy of the Olympics.
What this is normally boils down to their objection to judges 'deciding' who wins. I think it's fair to point out that judges or referees 'deciding' the outcome of competitions is not exclusive to directly judged events.
Middle-aged people who have never competed at international level in anything attempting to belittle something many young people dedicate their entire lives to irritates me. That's all.
Saying all that, Walking Races can get in the sea!*
* To any young Walking Racers out there, just ignore me. I'm 40, 15 kg overweight, sitting behind a desk doing Software QA all day. I am not a person whose opinion you should take into account in any way so keep doing what you're doing 🙂
They must judge for there to be a winner, and it isn’t yes/no judging. In a sense, every judgment in such sports is borderline
I think this is where I disagree, the dives aren't all borderline, there's really obvious mistakes made by the competitors, and some just aren't as good as others. Even as some-one who watches top class diving once every 4 years, you could, once you get your eye in, easily tell the difference. This pike not tucked as closely, that entry splash larger, his body not straight on entry...all those things are easily spotted even by a rank amateur like me. The marking also isn't as close as you suggest, there are pretty wide differences between an OK dive (at this level) and a very good dive (at this level). from 6.00 for OK and from 8.50 upwards for good (and they increase in 0.5 increments, not 0.1 as you suggest) and a diver making consistent 6.0 and 6.5 dives isn't going to be a match for the diver making consistent 8.0 and 8.5 dives
While I don't doubt that humans can't mark everything totally objectively and there's often unseen biases that even the judges aren't aware of. The research (on @TiRed link) doesn't see the same conclusion as the previous study (their results show the opposite) and one of the conclusions that competitors placed directly behind (in diving order) suffer if they're placed behind the favourites didn't hold true in the event with Tom and Matty directly behind the Chinese favourites. More research clearly needed.
While clearly I'm biased towards inclusion, To borrow your knife analogue, it's a fillet/paring knife difference..
PSA: The horse dancing is starting
REPEAT: THE HORSE DANCING IS STARTING!
I know that its everyones favourite event, especially TJ's 😉
I'd recommend listening to it on Five Live. Horse dancing on the radio. If ever there was a justification for the license fee, that's it
I’d recommend listening to it on Five Live. Horse dancing on the radio. If ever there was a justification for the license fee, that’s it
You'll be getting a gig on GB News with statements like that
I’d recommend listening to it on Five Live. Horse dancing on the radio.
is that right after the women's beach volleyball?
PSA: The horse dancing is starting
Mock all you like, for some kids; dressage is literally their only ticket out of the ghetto.
I thought I heard the feint lilt of the "Blue Danube" coming across the park from the council flats and sure enough...I can see them all practicing on their horses...Those that aren't spinning like tops and kicking each other in the head, obviously.
Lovely scenes
Well, Dujardin isn't from the humble background that some of you can boast about, I'm sure... but she's state school educated and not from the super moneyed background that you might be assuming. She now lives near my Mum, and the gold postbox there was very welcome... not everyone is quite so chippy about the sporting route others take.
Using horse dancing as her way of escape from the badlands of The Chilterns should be an inspiration to us all. State educated too, so barely literate? 😉
Mock all you like, for some kids; dressage is literally their only ticket out of the ghetto.
Stevenage?
Stevenage?
Surely Staines
We're heading slightly off topic here, can we get back to saying what an unappealing dullard Claire I'll commentate on just about anything Balding is.
Has anyone seen Eddie Izzard and Claire Balding in the same room together. 🤔 😀
😄 sports personality awards a few years back, but I think it was split screen or cgi.
She should do audio books for insomniacs, Alexa has more personality.
While clearly I’m biased towards inclusion,
I'm also for inclusion, but the challenge I have is when the winning margin is tiny and the test-retest residual error unknown. On another day the winner could be second solely on the grounds of unconscious bias Daley and Lee won with 471.81 and silver was awarded to the Chinese with 470.58, Bronze was 439.92, a huge difference. Now the winning margin is 0.26% of the mean of the top two scores. That's a draw in my book.
There are five dives, and 10 judges, each judge scores based on 0-10 in half-points. The two outliers are removed and the result multiplied by a set difficulty. Different judges score different aspects of the dive. They are summed and averaged. Sadly you can't randomise or blind the judges so there will always be subjective and unconscious bias. I think it's a pretty cool system actually.
I have no idea about horse dancing.
We’re heading slightly off topic here, can we get back to saying what an unappealing dullard Claire I’ll commentate on just about anything Balding is.
I like Balding. She is very very horsey though... so might put others off. Enjoying all the presenters actually... Boardman looks like a man who's not slept for weeks though... like a new dad. You get the feeling Alex Scott could smile through an apocalypse... I'm down with that positive style. Lutalo Muhammad should read book at bedtime.
Just watched a bit of women's gymnastics floor action on catch-up. Awesome tumbling with some cringeworthy posing in between that isn't quite dancing. Surely the stereotype-reinforcing differences between the men's and women's events is going to have to go? I bet those guys could bust some even cooler moves if allowed to get a bit creative.
Plus it is a bit like the horse-dancing, one reads about the historical abuse that has gone on in the sport and wonders.
there were a pair of gymnasts on Radio 5 live yesterday saying that all gymnasts are midgets and crippled early because of the damage they do to the growth plates of their bones at a young age. They weren't exactly selling it to parents wondering whether little Johnny/Jane should take up gymnastics!
Lutalo Muhammad should read book at bedtime.
He is probably the BBC find of the games
Any number of sports have a litany of mentally and physically broken youngsters at all levels, hopefully those mistakes aren't being repeated.
My cousins daughter was a Team GB rhythmic gymnast. Arguably not quite as much impact as the regular gymnasts, but a long history of injuries.
LittleMissMC does display gymnastics, and her squad have represented British Gymnastics abroad. Much more fun and relaxed at her level. Mind you, she's 5'2, size 14 and holds her school shot put record, so not a typical gymnast 🤣
I have no idea about horse dancing.
As long as you spin around when you're trying to kick them in the head, they can't see it coming, so it's not cruel. A 6.5 pointer...
I think that's how it works.
By contrast clay shooting. You either hit or (me) miss. Count the number of hits.
Pedantic arse mode; You quite often hear pellets hit the clay, and even see holes in them, without them breaking and scoring a point.
They should use real pigeons...if they don't die, you don't score
You quite often hear pellets hit the clay... and scoring a point.
Is there a tool that can mimic that sound. I need it!
And I rather like Claire.
My wife has just informed me that the Queen gave Claire Balding her first pony. She might be just a little bit horsey
They should use real pigeons…if they don’t die, you don’t score
That's how it used to be done. I think the pigeon had to hit the ground (dead or alive) within an area marked on the ground around the trap it was released from. Banned in the UK in 1921, still goes on in Spain I believe.
Slightly on-topic it seems to have been un-official side event at the 1900 Paris Olympics. I just went done a bit on an internet rabbit hole - the winner of that event looks interesting apparently he trained a pet fox as a gundog!
Is there a tool that can mimic that sound. I need it!
That's not goign to help, maybe I could have been clearer, but hit or not, if it doesn't break you don't get a point.
That’s not goign to help, maybe I could have been clearer, but hit or not, if it doesn’t break you don’t get a point.
Sounds like the ideal situation to bring in a judge....
Sounds like the ideal situation to bring in a judge….
one with good hearing?
if he hears the real pigeon squawk but not die, do you get the point?
timmys
That’s how it used to be done. I think the pigeon had to hit the ground (dead or alive) within an area marked on the ground around the trap it was released from.
Were they still fired out of a catapult-flinger thing?