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Taking a group of kids up Helvellyn in the Lake District in March '20.
No one badly hurt but I bet mountain rescue were not impressed nor some others it seems.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-60428239
Yes
Nothing wrong with going up in snow - but a lot else badly wrong on that trip - teachers with no qualifications and underequipped pupils being two
Taking them up, some wearing trainers... I bet that was no fun to say the least.
Clearly reckless as they have been given a large fine. A little bit of research, and they would have seen this:
Caingorm 1971 school deaths.
It says in the article that several members of the public told the ‘leaders’ they should turn back, but stupidly they carried on.
Even properly equipped, there’s no way I’d have carried on!
Clearly reckless as they have been given a large fine. A little bit of research, and they would have seen this:
Caingorm 1971 school deaths.
Not heard about that before. What an awful end to those young lives.
Yes I reckon a large fine should get the message over.
Absolutely right to fine them.
Controlled risk is a good thing for kids but that was nuts.
For that I would be expecting winter mountain leaders (yes plenty of people without the cert would be as good but how would a school know they are good enough?) and proper kit for the kids.
Number ratio isnt great either with just two adults since anything goes wrong and its one each and then it something else goes pearshaped.
So much wrong - and could have gone wrong.
The 1971 Cairngorm disaster is still horrific reading even now.
One of the drivers for all the ML structures I believe.
So does this school or arthodox jews as a whole have a fixation with this hill? I was up there a couple of years ago and there were several young jewish lads running around on top. Same last year. It had been a lovely morning but as we reached the summit the clouds had rolled in and a cold wind blowing. There they were again running around in shirt sleeves while everyone else was wrapped up. I found it odd - knew nothing about this previous incident.
Mind you up around Gateshead and Newcastle it's short sleeves mid winter.
Yep that was stupid.
Going up in those conditions with the wrong gear, no experience or skills was reckless in the extreme
The attitude to risk may be linked to the religious ethos at the school.
This is from 2004 but I remember a similar incident more recently.
And a Dover rescue from 2016
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/schoolchildren-rescued-from-kent-beach-after-using-phones-as-beacons
Did the same in 1970, straight up from Red Tarn, roped up, in January or February.
Aged 14.
Loved every minute of those outward bound courses.
The BBC article (for once) says it pretty well. It was a reckless and borderline lethal thing to do, and was a few hours from something much worse.
I'm also with StirlingCrispin - it seems a cultural thing. I say that having worked with a few Jewish youth groups leading canoe trips and hillwalks.
Lack of knowledge/unawareness or cultural pressure does not excuse your duty of care.
I climbed it on a school trip one February ("some" years ago). It was definitely winter conditions.
Wouldn't have been much using calling mountain rescue though as half of them were probably there with us. One of them had jogged over starting in the dark to check the route (I think that's a regular thing anyway for the condition report?)!
I've seen quite a few Jewish folk on Sgorr Gaoithe too, so it's not restricted to Ben Macdui.
Ugh get all judgemental about something two years ago? Can't we be more topical?
LOL sorry just ignore.
Did the same in 1970, straight up from Red Tarn, roped up, in January or February.
Aged 14.
Loved every minute of those outward bound courses.
Roped up, Outward Bound leaders. There's the difference.
They even checked the Weatherline report, complete with its advice about the prevailing ground conditions and need for winter equipment. Then they ignored it. Beggars belief.
Wonder what day this was, I remember being up Skiddaw in March ‘20 and it was pretty wild, me and the kids were up Haystacks a few days before and it was mad enough I turned round, no snow then so the school trip was likely even madder.
Did the same in 1970, straight up from Red Tarn, roped up, in January or February.
Aged 14.
Loved every minute of those outward bound courses.Roped up, Outward Bound leaders. There’s the difference.
Yes very, plus it was daylight. The course was run from Howtown Outdoor Centre, Durham County Council had some involvement in that & Thurston Outward Bound Centre on Coniston, hence how our secondary school were able to attend.
IMO every kid from about 12 upwards should be made to do a course like that, ‘should’ be part of the curriculum. It certainly helped me appreciate & respect the outdoors & the world around us.
The final quote in the BBC article: "Excursions into mountains, particularly in winter, need to be led by people with the appropriate skills, knowledge and experience." Makes no reference to qualifications.
Trick is knowing when to turn back which takes good, objective judgment (scarce) and decisiveness (also scarce) which is a million miles from, yet readily confused with determination (common).
The kids would’ve had none of this. The leaders should be hung out to dry.
So does this school or arthodox jews as a whole have a fixation with this hill?
Those could of been just seen school trip but I did wonder the same as you see a lot of Orthodox Jews in the Alps in the summer.
A quick Google suggests it's something to do with getting closer to God I think.
it’s something to do with getting closer to God I think.
Moses had to climb Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandants.
Maybe they are loitering at high altitude in case of updates?
Literally?
Assume this is a free school or academy but who actually pays the fine? Hope its not the public purse otherwise it's a waste of time.
Makes no reference to qualifications.
Winter Mountain Leader
Summer Mountain Leader is also available, as well as Lowland Leader, Moorland and International Mountain Leader
https://www.mountain-training.org/
: “Excursions into mountains, particularly in winter, need to be led by people with the appropriate skills, knowledge and experience.” Makes no reference to qualifications.
You don't NEED the qualifications to be competent in the mountains in winter but its a reasonable expectation
IMO every kid from about 12 upwards should be made to do a course like that, ‘should’ be part of the curriculum. It certainly helped me appreciate & respect the outdoors & the world around us.
It is in Scotland (and new Welsh curriculum). You could get away without it, but it's very clear that all children should have "regular and progressive outdoor learning experiences". Even NI has reference. All linked to Global Goals, UNCRC and just good teaching and learning.
England it's there, just not as explicit or connected.
You don’t NEED the qualifications to be competent in the mountains in winter but its a reasonable expectation
This is correct.
You should be able to demonstrate competence - and a nice shiny ticket is a good way it doing this.
The final quote in the BBC article: “Excursions into mountains, particularly in winter, need to be led by people with the appropriate skills, knowledge and experience.” Makes no reference to qualifications.
True . Interested to know what your point is though. (That's not supposed to sound mean by the way. )
I spent 5 winters working on Helvellyn. Its suprising how few incidents there are, considering the number of poorly equipped people on the hill in winter conditions. My pet hate was poorly equipped group's (informal, probably friends), led by a self proclaimed expert. The leader was usually impervious to advice as they led their friends into a stupid situation.
I only once met a school group that shouldn't have been there, but conditions were good. Advice was given, and they descended by the most sensible route. I think that if I'd met this group I would have been quite forceful in my advice, and probably stalked them for the rest of the day!
Matt (obviously) sums it up well.
This was not a marginal case, it was so far away from the threshold of a reasonable duty of care that a prosecution was straightforward.
The only difference is that normally these kind of prosecutions are preceded by a fatality, and thankfully in this case they managed somehow to avoid that, probably by pure luck.
The one from 2006(?) was plain scary, having spoken with one of the rescuers just after.
The teacher wanted the bus driver to drive up the forest road.
They did make a donation to the MRT but it was for such a small amount that I think it was sent back.
That should have led to prosecution as well.
Re the Dover incident mentioned above, we go to St Margaret’s quite a lot- they were lucky to have been able to use their phones- we struggle to get a signal down there.
So does this school or arthodox jews as a whole have a fixation with this hill? I was up there a couple of years ago and there were several young jewish lads running around on top. Same last year.
I've seen such groups on/near Helvellyn and High Street; one or two adults and a Transit's worth of youths in street clothes/footwear. In the latter case they were just reaching the top of Kidsty Pike at 4:30pm which seemed a bit iffy so I stirred up a chat. They'd come up from London, thought they were on Rough Crag so were unsure about where High Street was.
Assume this is a free school or academy but who actually pays the fine? Hope its not the public purse otherwise it’s a waste of time.
@csb All-boys £3k a year school in a dilapidated office block https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/school-allowed-stay-unsuitable-gateshead-14725694
I was descending the Pyg Track on Snowdon with my wife and kids late in the afternoon this Summer when we encountered a very large group of Jewish boys with a small number of supervising adults. The things that struck us (both of us are teachers) were the high number of pupils to adults, and the fact that they looked like they had just literally walked out of the classroom. I mean school uniform, some were wearing ties, and leather school shoes, nothing suitable for ascending a mountain into the cloud. Some were carrying schoolbags, some were carrying nothing.
I said to one of the adults "How far are you planning on going?", and received a cheery "To the top!" in reply. "Are you sure, as it will take a while?" I replied. "It will be fine" was the response.
As we continued down we were talking about the Lyme Bay disaster. I actually checked the MRT reports for the next couple of days as it looked like a guaranteed call-out. Maybe such endeavours are more common that you think?