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I've recently moved from central Edinburgh to a nearby rural town called Linlithgow.
The town is very dull, very middle class and very white.
There is currently a FURORE over Greene King wanting to rename a local pub called The Black Bitch to something less offensive.
The Black Bitch thing comes from a local traditional story about a thief sentenced to starve to death on an island in the loch, and their wife getting the dog to swim over with artisan pies or something. This was found out and the dog also get sentenced to starve.
People from Linlithgow refer to themselves as Black Bitches.
HOWEVER, this is the cover of the local magazine:
I know the 2020s are a tough time for parody to justify its existence but OH MY
That is ridiculous. No dog would actually swim over a loch with a pie without eating it. Daft.
I'm neither black, nor a dog, so I don't know if I'm offended or not. Best ask one of the STW expertsinevery****ingthing, who'll be along shortly...
Seems reasonable. Why should a pub with a hundreds of years old name have to change it because some people don't like it?
Reminds me of the ban on Ba Ba Black Sheep.
Well it's nice to see that the English don't have a total monopoly on cuture war based silliness in these here isles.
This was found out and the dog also get sentenced to starve.
Punishing the dog is cruel if this is true. The community should apologise to the dog and erect a monument to remember the loyal dog. A respect for a loyal dog.
As for the name of the pub why not just call it Loyal Black Dog? Not sure I want to call it Black Bitch if the dog was punished for trying to save its owner.
If the story is not real then use whatever name they wish for the pub.
Why should a pub with a hundreds of years old name have to change it because some people don’t like it?
The pub doesn't have to change its name, the owners are choosing to.
Flip your question around though. Its only a name, lots of people have got good reason to not like it, why on earth wouldn't you do the simple thing and change the name?
I am neither black nor a bitch and I really don't like that pub name. Furthermore, if its patrons are those people getting frothy about defending its name then I wouldn't want to drink there either.
Seems reasonable.
Yep, very reasonable - people who own a pub should be able to change the name if they like.
Why should a pub with a hundreds of years old name have to change it because some people don’t like it?
Why shouldn't it? If you've grown up being called a black bitch and spat at etc, don't you think it might be a little unsettling to see it on a building every time you walk past? Even if it's not aimed at you? I can appreciate that it might.
So why can't it be the black dog?
The people who own the pub can do what they want - if anyone else is really getting up in as about the name of a pub they can get in the sea.
See, that's the thing.
All the people who say being called a Black Bitch is not racist are white.
I've been visiting this town for years before I moved here (as my GF lives here) and I have never seen a single black person.
Maybe black people don't like moving to a town where the pub is called The Black Bitch.
It's also one of the worst pubs in town!
I'm surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn't come under any pressure to change its name
"I’m surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn’t come under any pressure to change its name"
For the love of all things holy does no one remember what happened when the Bull became The B at ambridge?
Havoc and chaos, havoc and chaos.
I was going to say, of all the things to get het up about, a Greene King pub is not one of them.It’s also one of the worst pubs in town!
there’s a few of those about, traditional name obviously (although origin disputed!) The one near-ish me (Kent) has changed names now, only a couple of years ago though.I’m surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn’t come under any pressure to change its name
Yes but Blackboy Road has a racist derivation whereas the black bitch is named after a black female dog.
I appreciate it must be difficult to move from Edinburgh, with its 0.2% black population, to somewhere with even fewer black people without suffering from a huge culture shock.
Why are people getting upset that the owners of a pub want to change its name? Snowflakes.
Best keep away from Argyll if names offend....
https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/local/the-bastard-argyll-and-bute
And Stirling
For the love of all things holy does no one remember what happened when the Bull became The B at ambridge?
Wait til you find out what happened to the Canal Boat on the road between the uni, the student pub district and the main halls of residence.
As for the name of the pub why not just call it Loyal Black Dog?
I'm not sure if this avoids the issue
It’s a crap name for a pub, but then no again it’s in Linlithgow
Only folk whining is those making it an issue, so they can whine about something.
What we really need are pictures of the girlfriend. I mean if she's worth moving to Linlithgow...
Years ago, the Guardian reported on a Court Case, saying 'the black cab driver was in the dock'.
It got a complaining letter, that was, apparently, printed, 'why did you identify the colour of the accused' to which the Editor has replied, 'The black cab driver was referring to the colour of his cab,not his skin colour'.
It was on Radio 4, so I'd like to think it was real.
More bullshit created because half of the UK population want to police by offence.
It's clearly a non-racist cultural tradition that's been going on for a long time. And the thing about racism is it *requires intent*.
If it's not intended to be racist, but someone decides to *take offence* then that's their problem - and it shouldn't be made to be anyone elses.
I can construe lots of things in lots of different ways. I can get upset about them too. Should everyone have to tread on eggshells so I don't get upset?
Bull. What is going on is cultural homogenisation in the name of "fixing racism" - racism that doesn't exist. And it infantilises our minds - because we no longer are capable of intellectualising nuance - everything is, for want of a better phrase, black or white nowadays.
It's clearly more than the name of the pub. It's cultural and from the area. Whether all the people from there are white or not has zero bearing on it. Intention is a pre-requisite for something to be *actually* racist.
@50.8750045,-3.6992395,407m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0x486db6b3e4657e45:0xf0dcf738c3a3f8d2!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d50.8749301!4d-3.698854!5m1!1e1">Black dog inn
Where will it end?
There’s a Black Ladd near us. It was the name of a local shirehorse I think…
I can’t believe they changed Gropec*nt Lane to Magpie Lane in Oxford.
Intention is a pre-requisite for something to be *actually* racist.
This really is not true at all. People are often racist without any intent because of ignorance. I had an old lady refer to one member of staff as "the little n***** girl" totally racist, she was not demented, she was just ignorant
To me this depends on who wants to change the name and if its the pub owners its up to them. Storm in a teacup but its linlithgow so hardly surprising
Or Ron Atkinsons "a lazy n******" - again no intent to be racist - just ignorance and stupidity
but someone decides to *take offence* then that’s their problem – and it shouldn’t be made to be anyone elses
I agree. All those taking offence at the pub name changing can just suck it up.
Ignoring the fact it is some middle-aged middle class white bloke who decided on making the change…
EDIT
& that decision was taken by Greene King. Which is named after its founder, Benjamin Greene.
Who was a slave owner.
If he is the pub owner thats his right. Pubs get names changed all the time.
@tjagain:
"This really is not true at all. People are often racist without any intent because of ignorance."
Nah. To be racist requires intent. If atkinson was *genuinely* unaware of his racism (and I don't for a second believe that - I believe he was being an ugly racist) - then he was guilty of using a racial epithet - not guilty of racism.
Nuance. < As I said in my post. We're infantilised and incapable of having sensible adult discussions about things. And it means that innocent cultural traditions (like above) get trashed.
And the world is a poorer, lesser place for it.
@kelvin
"I agree. All those taking offence at the pub name changing can just suck it up."
Oh, I don't take offence at it. TBH - if the landlord wants to change the name, that's their perogative.
But if the landlord is changing the name "because it's racist" - then it's still his perogative - but he's a bit of a dumb arsehole IMO. But then the world is full of 'em, so there's no point in getting too upset over it.
i drive past that fairly frequently and often wondered how long it would last.
chevychase - that is just so much nonsense. Of course you can be racist without intent if its done from ignorance. I gave two examples and could give many more.
Had a couple of pints of Guinness in there last night. Was alright.
Again "sunken and tree lined dark lane".
"I'm offended"
The answer should probably be "that's a shame. I understand why you've taken offence - but it's 100% not a dig at you - it was called this a long time ago".
"But I'm offended"
"Oh, ok, we'll change everything for people who are offended"
"chevychase – that is just so much nonsense. Of course you can be racist without intent if its done from ignorance. I gave two examples and could give many more."
And I continued your examples to show the difference between ignorantly using a racial epithet and being actually racist - with being actually racist requiring intent.
Nuance. It appears that you can't grasp it either, unfortunately.
@tjagain - how about one of my examples:
The BBC has strict guidelines on what language is allowable in various contexts - because context is important on whether something is racist or not.
The word "chinky" is a potentially racially offensive term applied to describe Chinese people - and is treated as such in TV programmes.
However - if the programme is about Liverpool / scousers / set in the North West it's NOT classed as a racist term. This is because scousers say "going for a chinky" completely innocently when it means going for chinese food.
The BBC acknoledges that they're NOT being racist and it's not a racist term - because there's no intent there. It's innocent.
The BBC has deemd that if you're a londoner using that term you're probably using it with intent.
I don't think it's a particularly strong argument to illustrate / make my case - to be honest, I'm not really that bothered if I do or don't - it just a fact that amuses me - and I hope it amuses you 🙂
Did someone not suggest it be changed to 'The Black Hound' but this was unsuitable as it too was deemed to have racial overtones.
Change it to The Russian Pig. Thats bound to get support these days.
the thing about racism is it *requires intent*.
If it’s not intended to be racist, but someone decides to *take offence* then that’s their problem – and it shouldn’t be made to be anyone elses.
Wow. You are so, so wrong.
@franksinatra - saying "you're wrong" isn't an actual argument you know.
You are right, it’s not an argument, it’s a statement of fact.
Words do matter and language changes accordingly. In the Midlands my Grandad had an absolute shit hole of a factory. One of the men working there was a young black guy, my Grandad called him a classic racist name, and used it when he told us about him. As a five year old I just thought it was his name, as he always talked about him fondly, and never with malice hatred or spite. I met him once and he did some Kung fu (I’m not kidding), the finale was him karate chopping a vertical file held in a vice. The thing snapped easily and the broken bit shot across the room. I was in awe of him. Anyway it was years later when I realised what the name was and how terrible it was, it was also a name used against me, as I was pretty dark skinned as a lad, I was always outside and half Greek. When I think back it makes me cringe to think of this guy constantly hearing this, and I hope he realises my Grandad liked him so much, and I hope his days at the factory weren’t unhappy. What if some others heard it’s use and thought it was okay to call people this. What if it encouraged racist thugs who thought the rest of the community condoned their violence. What if he had a child of his own who had to hear his father called this. The word was Sambo.
Yay! Just as predicted!
I wonder how long the pub has actually had that name, if it really is a couple of hundred years old or if it is much more recent using the old local story as cover, with a nod and a wink to it's intentional double meaning.
However – if the programme is about Liverpool / scousers / set in the North West it’s NOT classed as a racist term.
Citation needed. Sounds like utter bollocks.
I think ypirguitarhero is making it all up. He's just got some old stills photographs from the Wicker Man and played around with them in Photoshop.
It's unclear to me what the actual story is here -
Are the owners of the pub changing the name? if so suck it up, don't drink there if you don't want to.
Just before you get to Calne on the A4 from Chippenham there’s a hill with a small former railway platform where the Sustrans route crosses called Black Dog Hill and Black Dog Halt. So far I’m not aware of any moves to force a name change, thankfully, because the name references ghostly black dogs that are said to haunt certain places, stories that go back millennia, possibly to pre-Celtic times.
For a while there was an actual black dog, a Labrador, that lived at some cottages just up the hill, and a former colleague at a print company in Calne nearly hit it late one dark and misty night on his way home; the daft animal was laying in the middle of the road!
This is because scousers say “going for a chinky” completely innocently when it means going for chinese food.
Once upon a time, I was a bit late arriving at a friend’s wedding reception, after missing a motorway junction. My then girlfriend and I were a bit flustered, and when another friend said, “what happened to you two? Stop off for a chinky?” When we just stared at him, not having really got our heads together yet, he stuttered a bit, and added, “or an Indian or fish and chips?”
As Kim, my g/f, was half Chinese, he thought he’d really dropped a clanger; however Kim’s family regularly used the term when referring to putting together a big meal for friends, because her dad did amazing Indian-style curries, coming from Birmingham as he did, and thought nothing of it. We had a big laugh at his discomfort. The term was in common usage here in North Wiltshire referring to getting a Chinese takeaway rather than Indian or Italian.
Probably worth noting as well that the owners are proposing changing the name to The Black Hound which suggests that the main issue is the use of the word bitch rather than reference to it being black.
This feels exactly like the kind of woke racism that John McWhorter is criticising in his new book.
Frankly, the locals should've been protesting about Greene King taking over their boozer, a far bigger problem than any name change.
with being actually racist requiring intent.
It's quite possible, indeed common, to unintentionally treat specific races or ethnicities less favourably. That is racism.
Well judetheobscure, It seems like the facts just don't like your 'feelings'.(I refer you to Frank's post just above yours.)
Though it could be that the people of 'Summer Isle' are equal opportunity offenders....
"with being actually racist requiring intent."
Racist is as racist does..
I just looked up who John McWhorter is and one of the first things I found out was that he endorses renaming buildings and schools honoring Woodrow Wilson.
Sometimes woke racism is ok I guess.
I see that the campaign has got the support of Patriots Voice, that lovely group who also run campaigns such as Help Resist the Islamification of Britain and Sadiq Khan Disrespecting the English!
I think if you have the backing of groups like that, you need to take a proper look at yourself and ask where it all went wrong.
The Blacks Head in Wirksworth has recently bowed under pressure to change it's name
@yourguitarhero come over the hill to Bathgate the first Saturday in June and celebrate a sugar plantation owner who funded the first public school in the town!
The festival has been renamed and there was a fair stramash about that.
Amongst the older generation if it rains on the parade, it's said to be 'the darkies tears'.
I could honestly see it far enough.
It’s unclear to me what the actual story is here what the actual story is here
I suspect the OP has been persuaded to move to Linlithgow against his better judgement & is therefore expressing his resentment by using this story to diss the place. As I understand it, considering it’s a small town in the middle of the Central Belt, Linlithgow is actually quite a nice place to live, but not Edinburgh obvs. Hence the willingness to hate it.
Still got the Saracens Head pub in glasgow. a place with an "interesting" clientele
@franksinatra "I think if you have the backing of groups like that, you need to take a proper look at yourself and ask where it all went wrong. "
Idiots are always going to be idiots - and groups like these are going to latch on to *anything*.
What this means that anything like this - a long standing cultural tradition which isn't racist - is always going to attract these type of people.
That doesn't mean the cultural tradition is wrong - it just means the world is full of idiots.
Still got the Saracens Head pub in Glasgow.
An old olde pub, at at least 250 years in operation.
it just means the world is full of idiots
luv u 2 x x x
dynati - I was wondering what the clientele would say if you tried to change the name - dunno if its still the same as it was back in the 70s mind you
I’m not aware of any moves to force a name change, thankfully
And in this story, there are only moves to try and prevent a name change, it seems.
If you buy a boat, it's considered bad luck not to change its name.
Eh? It’s the opposite. It’s considered very bad luck to change a boat’s name. (Unless you carry out a special name changing ceremony)
I’m neither black, nor a dog, so I don’t know if I’m offended or not. Best ask one of the STW expertsinevery****ingthing, who’ll be along shortly…
bad humour alert!
you may not be black or a dog, but you do come across as a bit of a bitch.
There is a section on the Glentress Black between posts 93 and 49 that has previously been referred to as "The Bitch" on the trail maps, although on more recent maps it is unnamed.
I have a recollection of it being named "The Black Bitch", but that might be a false memory.
TBH, if we want to be an inclusive sport in the 21st century, we need to think a bit more carefully about our trail nomenclature, which can leave a lot to be desired.
But then the world is full of ’em
Indeed it is. You should see what some of them post on STW.
The term was in common usage here in North Wiltshire
That’s pretty mild for North Wiltshire.
Stop. Stop. Stop.
The issue here is that many native Linlithgowans have been using the phrase "Black Bitch" as a collective name for years - in much the same way as folk from Newcastle area would call themselves Geordies. So, in a sense, the name is much more meaningful than just being that above a pub doorway. I can therefore see why many locals are against the name change.
And the pub name change is going to also make it illegal for them to keep doing that somehow?
I want to hear more about the pie delivering swimming dog. Modern dogs need to take a long hard look in the mirror. They don’t do anything!
Dips toe in racism thread....
What if the pub was just called "the bitch"?
I suspect it would have been renamed before now as appearing to be offensive.
I've done a quick search on pubnames.co.uk, and that is indeed the only pub listed on there with the word "bitch" in it. I don't imagine it's exhaustive. There are lots of pubs on there who's name contains the word "black".... of which not an insignificant number appear to be a bit problematic.
Its the "bitch" part that's the primarily offensive part, with the "black" part making it sound (albeit coincidentally...... one hopes) like a racial slur - and not even a subtle one.
If it was called "the black woman" (with a charming story about ye olde black lady smuggling pies to some chap on an island) then I don't think there would be any issue - the above website should a significant number of pubs being called "the black boy" or similar. No saying that those are NOT racist names, just that they aren't automatically so.
I think there are some angry boomers because somebody wants to change the name of their pub, and it conveniently overlaps with their generalised anger at woke/cancel culture.
Anyone reasonable would change the pub name to "the black hound/dog" and get on with their lives.
Well Black Boy is a good example. That's long been the common name of the Xanthorrhoea...
Xanthorrhoea plants are also known as Balga Grass Plants. ‘Balga’ is the Aboriginal word for black boy and for many years the plant was fondly known as a “Black Boy”. It is thought that the Aborigines called the plants Balga because after a bush fire had ravaged the land, the blackened trunk of the Xanthorrhoea would be revealed beneath the burned lower leaves, and would resemble a child like black figure. Others believe that the plant, with it’s bush fire blackened trunk and long flower spike resembled an Aboriginal boy wielding a spear. Whatever the case, as the years have passed, it is seen as an extremely racist name, and is thought to be very offensive to the original custodians of the land, so the plants are more commonly known as Grass Tree, because let’s face it Xanthorrhoea is a bit of a mouthful.
It's interesting that it may be that the name has effectively been translated and re-appropriated, but its currency has diminished.
At my local MTB park, the Black Boy trail was changed to Xanthy a couple of year's ago.
Yes - we went to "Chinaman's beach" here over Christmas (very nice BTW), and we discussed whether the name was/wasn't racist.
So named because that area was first populated by Chinese immigrants who set up market gardens and salt pans there.
Obviously you wouldn't refer to somebody as a "Chinaman" today - but I can't really think of why this historical name would particularly cause any offence today. Checked with a Chinese person, they agreed.
I wonder if a black woman would find a pub being called "the black bitch" offensive? I suspect they probably would.