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I was driving along the A97 yesterday and got caught in a queue of traffic behind someone on an ebike. Nobody could pass him as he was doing about 35mph. I followed him for over 5 miles and he didn't pedal once. Eventually we came up behind another cyclist at a single track bridge followed by a blind bend and slowed to about 5mph. The ebiker didn't slow but swung across to the opposite side of the road just as a car appeared round the bend. He just got back in time and flew off up the road. When I eventually passed him it appeared to be a mountain bike and the rider looked to be in his fifties.
Apart from being illegal speed this can't help the motorists view of cyclists
Apart from being illegal speed this can’t help the motorists view of cyclists
They arent a cyclist though. They are someone riding a motorbike illegally.
Cool story bro.
They are someone riding an illegal motorbike illegally.
I possibly FTFY
" Yeah but it's electric" ©
Yeah, I saw someone on one of those boosting their mate up a hill. The mate WHO WAS HIMSELF RIDING A 'NORMAL' EBIKE. SMH.
Its just the same as somebody riding around on a motocross bike with no plates/licence/insurance/tax etc, buts its an electric engine instead of petrol.
Remember, it's only illegal if you're caught and found guilty by a court of law ;o)
appeared to be a mountain bike and the rider looked to be in his fifties.
Never trust a man in his fifties on a mountain bike.
Does it matter what someone rides if they are getting in your way? Combine Harvester? Classic VeloSolex? Merc AMG estate with a failed gearbox or engine mount trying to get home in limp mode? Maybe ring the proper authorities and have the road cleared for your exclusive use next time?
Going to fast no one could overtake him?
@midlife - harsh. Funny tho 🤣
Does it matter what someone rides if they are getting in your way?
I'd say yes. All the others are taxed, insured and licenced* and allowed to be on the road.
*rider may have had a motorbike licence of course.
I am lost as to why the OP thinks the cyclist was riding at an illegal speed and wasn't allowed to be on the road. Am I missing something?
I am lost as to why the OP thinks the cyclist was riding at an illegal speed and wasn’t allowed to be on the road. Am I missing something?
It sounds like it was an illegal electric motorbike.
he was doing about 35mph. I followed him for over 5 miles and he didn’t pedal once.
I followed him for over 5 miles and he didn’t pedal once.
You can do that from the top of Ditchling Beacon to the centre of Brighton.
I am lost as to why the OP thinks the cyclist was riding at an illegal speed and wasn’t allowed to be on the road. Am I missing something?
Missing quite a lot it appears 🙂
Riding an electric motorbike on a public road...
So no tax
No insurance
No plates
No indicators
No MOT
But the OP says ebike, not electric motorbike. So was it an EAPC or an electric motorbike?
Going to fast no one could overtake him?
A97 can be difficult to overtake at the best of times, quite narrow and bends.
I am lost as to why the OP thinks the cyclist was riding at an illegal speed and wasn’t allowed to be on the road. Am I missing something?
E-bikes have a legal speed restriction of 15mph (unassisted). He was doubling that.
But the OP says ebike, not electric motorbike. So was it an EAPC or an electric motorbike?
Didn't pedal, was doing 35mph for about 5 miles...
Based on that info then it's an electric motorbike that happened to be in the shape of a mountain bike.
Therefore totally illegal.
To be fair, for every person on a shady derestricted eBike, you'll probably see a hundred uninsured drivers (though you probably don't know which ones they are), who are more likely to maim you.
Insurance issues aside, electric motorbikes are probably a pretty efficient way to travel, aren't they?
electric motorbikes are probably a pretty efficient way to travel, aren’t they?
Yup, which is why they are legal. Except when they are not legal.
Driving my car around is is pretty efficient way to travel, and it is perfectly legal for me to do so. Unless I remove the seatbelts and indicators. Then it's illegal. Go figure.
Didn’t pedal, was doing 35mph for about 5 miles…
You can get twist and go EAPC bikes and they are legal if converted by the manufacturer. I kinda assumed you were using a bit of artistic licence regarding the speed it was travelling at.
Getting vehicle approval for your electric bike
An electric bike must be type approved if either:it can be propelled without pedalling (a ‘twist and go’ EAPC)
it does not meet the EAPC rulesThis should have been done by the manufacturer or importer before you bought it. If it’s been type approved, it will have a plate showing its type approval number.
There are a few around my way... chavs on moto-x style electric bikes causing a total nuisance on and off pavements doing stupid speeds.
No police around to stop them though so they just do whatever they want.
Insurance issues aside, electric motorbikes are probably a pretty efficient way to travel, aren’t they?
Same goes for the 15.5mph limited scooters. Great way to get about town but not legal on road or pavement.
My next door neighbour is a cop, and we were talking about those escooters that are around. His opinion is that its bad legislation, and if the government want to make the most of an effective and zero emission travel option, they need to adjust the laws to help these things, not hinder their use.
Is it any different from someone riding a chicken chaser? would the OP have been less aggrieved if the thing he was stuck behind was screaming its nuts off and blowing blue smoke?
Bad riding and/or road craft is an entirely separate an irrelevant issue
they need to adjust the laws to help these things, not hinder their use.
And isn't that exactly what they have done?
The law was adjusted so that electric motors could be used to help power bicycles without the need to register them or pay tax.
And the law was adjusted to allow scooters wholly powered by electric motors on the public highway.
Just because they are a good idea in zero emission transport it doesn't mean that they should be free of all restrictions.
You wouldn't accept a car on the road without lights or efficient brakes just because it was a zero emission vehicle, why should it be different for electric bikes/scooters?
Driving my car around is is pretty efficient way to travel, and it is perfectly legal for me to do so. Unless I remove the seatbelts and indicators. Then it’s illegal. Go figure.
Well, yes, but the OP was (1) annoyed at being held up, (2) by an 'illegal' bike.
1+2 are not directly related, yet OP appears to justify his anti-(motor?)cyclist pro-car rant (lol) by telling us that the bike is not legal therefore any criticism is justified.
would the OP have been less aggrieved if the thing he was stuck behind was screaming its nuts off and blowing blue smoke?
Quite.
if the government want to make the most of an effective and zero emission travel option, they need to adjust the laws to help these things, not hinder their use.
A crash at 30 mph has four times the energy of one at 15 mph. Your brakes, tyres, etc. need to be much beefier to deal with sustained riding at those higher speeds. Having a bunch of kids riding unrestricted e-bikes will result in a lot of nasty accidents, not just to themselves, but to pedestrians. Limits on power and speed are fairly sensible if you aren't going to have mandatory registration and licenses, safety inspections, proper helmets, etc.
Well, yes, but the OP was (1) annoyed at being held up, (2) by an ‘illegal’ bike.
1+2 are not directly related
Yes you are right. Apologies, having re-read the OP he does indeed seem aggravated by the fact that he was being held up, presumably he would have also been unhappy being held up by a legal motorbike doing 35 mph, he doesn't suggest different.
A97 can be difficult to overtake at the best of times, quite narrow and bends.
But the rider could have been on a moped/scooter or legal electric motorbike at around those speeds and would have been just as hard to pass? So yes he shouldn't be riding a restricted ebike at those speeds but its not clear that he was actually causing you any more inconvenience than if he'd been riding a legal machine. Arguably he was "10mph" less trouble to you than if he'd been on a road bike spinning his legs away at 25 mph.
Of course, had he been spotted by the police he may have found himself on the receiving end of a £300 fine and 6 pts for riding without insurance (or potentially worse at court!)...
Well, yes, but the OP was (1) annoyed at being held up, (2) by an ‘illegal’ bike.
1+2 are not directly related, yet OP appears to justify his anti-(motor?)cyclist pro-car rant (lol) by telling us that the bike is not legal therefore any criticism is justified.
My principle objection would be to illegal riding and dangerous overtaking playing into the hands of anti-cyclist car drivers.
And the law was adjusted to allow scooters wholly powered by electric motors on the public highway.
I assume you mean the sort of scooter that looks like a kids scooter rather than "like a moped" ? (I don't think they needed to change anything to permit "electric mopeds"?). Those e-scooters are not permitted outside certain experimental projects. Halfords will sell you one with nowhere to use it, but you cannot legally ride your own e-scooter on the public highway - only rent them from the approved companies. That does smack of lining the pockets of the VC backed e-scooter companies rather than trying to find an environmentally friendly mode of transport. There are of course issues with them - and the government needs to come up with a way to resolve those issues (insurance, registration?)
A crash at 30 mph has four times the energy of one at 15 mph. Your brakes, tyres, etc.
This is the reason you see a number of 'Thinks it's in a TT' commuters in London get pranged by cars, they've no ability to suddenly stop after going as fast as the can along and in and out of the side of road cycle lane. Car suddenly pops out and its no chance.
Ebikes, the 15.5mph type can be de-restricted to go a lot faster, and pretty sure a throttle can be retro fitted. If it has pedals and a throttle then its illegal modification, it would be either one or the other but not both, especially on British roads.
Of course individuals can act as they like, but if they do get into an accident, the insurance company is going to find out the bike's been modified and the rider could be in for a hefty bill, once that is the law has finished with them.
And the law was adjusted to allow scooters wholly powered by electric motors on the public highway.
Currently just in trial areas and when rented from an approved provider though - not really useful if we are trying to get widespread usage.
I saw somehting from a police force recently where they had received reports of an e bike being ridden at fast speeds, and they located it (when locked up, not being ridden) and seized it as an illegal conversion, so they are interested. As others have said the brakes etc also need to be suitable for the speed, which a crappy moped will have (although I am also not a fan of the 30mph limit on these - when my son was learning he used to travel on a 60mph road into toen with few passing places and I think the speed limit was more dangerous than when he moved to a faster bike).
Is it any different from someone riding a chicken chaser? would the OP have been less aggrieved if the thing he was stuck behind was screaming its nuts off and blowing blue smoke?
Part of the issue for me is the chicken chaser would have been designed and constructed to minimum standards with regard to brakes, tyres etc whilst many of these converted electric bicycles are built on to death traps.
When I worked in a bike shop a customer brought in a conversion that had been built for her by her husband for her to use to get to work. She was concerned that it felt very scary and asked me to look at it to see if it was put together properly. Apparently it was a UK legal conversion kit bought on Amazon.
She brought it in and it was a disaster area. Based on a 1990's Diamondback with steep twitchy steering, canti brakes, narrow bars and skinny slicks. The conversion was a massive front hub motor, throttle control, no speed or cadence sensor and a battery on a pannier rack.
With her agreement I took it home to ride on the farm tracks at home (I rent a house on a farm). According to my Garmin acceleration up to 40mph was pretty swift and it was still pulling hard but it was properly scary. Pulling on the brakes made it stop in around 150m. Any throttle at all in a corner resulted in the bike sitting up and the front wheel sliding out. It was basically unridable.
I reported back to the customer who was relieved that it wasn't just her imagination. I also told her it wasn't an "ebike" it was an electric motorbike so was completely illegal to ride on the road. She was happy with this and said she wouldn't ride it again.
The next day her husband turned up. He wasn't happy. Claimed that putting a motor on a bicycle was fine, everyone was doing it and I had just told her what I did to get her to buy a really expensive ebike (we didn't sell ebikes). Lots of arm waving and shouting. He rode away on a 20 year old Spesh with v brakes powered by a 2 stroke.
These conversions are really, really dangerous. We aren't talking about a derestricted Bosch MTB with modern components, we are talking about 5kw motors on bikes with crap brakes and worn out cheap tyres. And there are a lot out there.
I have just witnessed an electric wheelchair trundling up the road at 6mph. With a queue of about 40 vehicles all stuck behind, lorries, busses, cars and cyclists.
100mtr from the tail of the queue appears an ambo in full fligjt with two tones and lights flashing merrily.
Bet the crew were super impressed having to needlessly overtake that lot when a decent sized footpath runs along the side of the road for a good distance.
Currently just in trial areas and when rented from an approved provider though – not really useful if we are trying to get widespread usage.
Isn't that how new ideas and technology should be introduced....... with carefully controlled trials to establish the likely outcome including unintended consequences?
Just introducing something totally different and new without bothering to do it in a gradual and considerate way, and then dealing with the consequences afterwards doesn't sound particularly sensible to me.
And certainly the government would be heavily criticised if they took that approach.
(Waits for the "but that's what they did with brexit" comment)
<blockquoteI have just witnessed an electric wheelchair trundling up the road at 6mph.
I've just seen a squirrel.
I’ve just seen a squirrel.
If it wasn't driving an electric wheelchair then I don't care.
Was it an illegal grey one?
I was in Bristol on holiday recently and there was loads of these "conversions" being used for UberEats/ Deliveroo deliveries. They were all based on bicycles with pedals, but no pedalling was taking place, as above, seemed to have large front hub motor, often held together with gaffa tape.
He rode away on a 20 year old Spesh with v brakes powered by a 2 stroke.
Wait, what?
I was in Bristol on holiday recently and there was loads of these “conversions” being used for UberEats/ Deliveroo deliveries. They were all based on bicycles with pedals, but no pedalling was taking place, as above, seemed to have large front hub motor, often held together with gaffa tape.
Yeah, this seems to be the default mode of transport for the Deliveroo riders round ours too. Rider modified too to remove all semblences of common sense too.
“ Wait, what?”
Yep - I see them for sale sometimes on eBay or gumtree. Never seen one on the road. Must be terrifying.
I think there is an opportunity to increase the speed or capabilities of ebikes. Unfortunately the limits manufacturers put on them can always be worked around, and in a global economy where conversion kits are sold which are massively powerful they are always going to find their way onto UK roads somehow. Probably will continue until a legal ebike or scooter is available for legal use at a low enough price but has a decent turn of speed. Then it probably won’t be worth making your own.
He rode away on a 20 year old Spesh with v brakes powered by a 2 stroke
At least he'd stop pretty rapidly, right?
“ Yeah, this seems to be the default mode of transport for the Deliveroo riders round ours too. Rider modified too to remove all semblences of common sense too.”
They were all over the place in NYC when I went a few years ago. Seem like a great idea for local delivery services, over there they were longer wheelbase bikes and looked pretty capable.
He rode away on a 20 year old Spesh with v brakes powered by a 2 stroke
To clarify, oh you know what I meant!
😁
Wait, what?
Probably will continue until a legal ebike or scooter is available for legal use at a low enough price but has a decent turn of speed.
You mean like this?
Unless you mean something that does not require a license, VED, MoT, insurance, osv.
The cheap transport exists, but it's the extra bits that people don't want to pay for.
Yeah, this seems to be the default mode of transport for the Deliveroo riders round ours too. Rider modified too to remove all semblences of common sense too.
We have some of those, but mainly they're all one specific model of ebike:
Loads of them, all driven by Indian (or SE Asian) riders. At £1600 seems an expensive investment for Ubereats / Deliveroo etc.
Can confirm pushbikes with little 2 stroke motors on the streets of Birmingham also.
Pedal bike with motor 😕
Like this you mean ?
1909 Triumph. I'd have one in an instant.
As you raised it, yes they did do that with Brexit and with many other large changes without carefully controlled trials.
An eScooter than goes at 15.5mph, i.e. bicycle cruising speed, is no more dangerous than a bicycle going at 15.5mph. The different with bicycles is that they can go 30mph, for how long depends on distance. To put it in context, a fast runner can run at almost that speed.
Pedal bike with motor 😕
Like this you mean ?
More this, on a tatty old mountain bike, if you could imagine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384120491839?hash=item596f5d8f3f:g:MVcAAOSwuzFgQHLg
An eScooter than goes at 15.5mph, i.e. bicycle cruising speed, is no more dangerous than a bicycle going at 15.5mph.
Do you not think the smaller front wheel is a danger in itself ?. More likely to cause it to pitch over if it hits anything over a couple of inches 😕
More this, on a tatty old mountain bike, if you could imagine.
He had 2 and one's been sold. Could be to our A97 rider 😆
Loads of them, all driven by Indian (or SE Asian) riders. At £1600 seems an expensive investment for Ubereats / Deliveroo etc.
You must live in a proper posh area.
Down my way most Deliveroo riders can't afford to pay a fiver for front and back lights from Aldi.
Had quite a few throttle bikes in the shop, they get politely turned away as we recently broke on our bargepole.
Gotta love this place sometimes.
Riding an e-bike at double its legal unassisted limit: "well, that's about the same as a fast runner!"
Driving at 31mph in a 30 zone: "you're literally worse than Hitler!"
So if I duct tape Usain Bolt to my front bumper then I'm good, right?
... speaking as someone who was almost taken out on the pavement ten minutes ago by the latest favourite of the ****-about-town, the electric scooter. Little prick buzzed past me from behind with no warning and about two inches clearance, doing I don't know what speed but certainly faster than I could have run to catch him.
Down my way most Deliveroo riders can’t afford to pay a fiver for front and back lights from Aldi.
Even the posh bikes never seem to have functioning lights, I guess they get better range with them turned off!
Driving at 31mph in a 30 zone: “you’re literally worse than Hitler!”
So if I duct tape Usain Bolt to my front bumper then I’m good, right?
Try the rear bumper of your pickup truck, if you are after neo-nazi approval.
Olly
Free Member
they need to adjust the laws to help these things, not hinder their use.
Yip, the legal limit on ebikes with no license insurance etc should around 25/ 30mph tbh.
Personally, mines is set so I kick around about 21-24mph, 36x11 gearing in so start to pedal out not far beyond that.
Maybe that's the approach that should be took on ebikes, rather than power, a gearing limit should probably be applied.
Would make alot more sense.
Cougar
Full Member
… speaking as someone who was almost taken out on the pavement ten minutes ago by the latest favourite of the ****-about-town, the electric scooter. Little prick buzzed past me from behind with no warning and about two inches clearance, doing I don’t know what speed but certainly faster than I could have run to catch him.
tbh that kinda incident is really just an infrastructure problem more than anything else.
You can do that from the top of Ditchling Beacon to the centre of Brighton
You really can’t.
You really can’t.
Next you'll be telling me that you can't freewheel uphill. I see Deliveroo riders do it all the time.
tbh that kinda incident is really just an infrastructure problem more than anything else.
Er, you could say that about basically anything? The reason that it's not safe to drive everywhere at 100mph - infrastructure problem.
Perhaps the reason that electric scooters aren't legal is because the infrastructure isn't there for them. That doesn't been that "that kinda incident" is caused by the lack of infrastructure, it's caused by people using them inconsiderately.
Aidy
Free Member
tbh that kinda incident is really just an infrastructure problem more than anything else.Er, you could say that about basically anything? The reason that it’s not safe to drive everywhere at 100mph – infrastructure problem.
I'm all for autobahns, they're great, crack on. 😆
Aidy
Free Member
tbh that kinda incident is really just an infrastructure problem more than anything else.Er, you could say that about basically anything? The reason that it’s not safe to drive everywhere at 100mph – infrastructure problem.
Perhaps the reason that electric scooters aren’t legal is because the infrastructure isn’t there for them. That doesn’t been that “that kinda incident” is caused by the lack of infrastructure, it’s caused by people using them inconsiderately.
Yeah, but ebikes and scooters really should be at the forefront of a green transport revolution. So naw, fault lies with the government.
Yes, these things
https://images.app.goo.gl/cTFyFeBYKpTBWVH79
We had a few people bring them in the shop wanting servicing. They are bloody dangerous, will easily do 50mph, always built onto crap old MTB's bought for £50. The engine drives a sprocket which clamps to the spokes on the disc side, so you can't run a rear disc even if you want to.
One guy brought one in saying it was really wobbly at 55mph on the A9. When I looked at it, most of the NDS nipples had started pulling through the rim and the wheel was really floppy. This caused the tyre to rub on the chain stay wearing through it and the tyre was down to the last few threads. And 15mins earlier he'd been doing over 50mph on a dual carriageway!
I told him he had a choice. He could either leave it with us and collect it later in a car, or he could ride it away and I'd call the police. He left it with us. TBH he looked pretty shaken when I showed him the issues...
Do you not think the smaller front wheel is a danger in itself ?. More likely to cause it to pitch over if it hits anything over a couple of inches
Nope. Have you ridden one?
I’m all for autobahns, they’re great, crack on. 😆
So am I, but I wouldn't want to walk down the middle of one.
Gotta love this place sometimes.
Riding an e-bike at double its legal unassisted limit: “well, that’s about the same as a fast runner!”
Except I was referring to the legal 15.5mph scooters. And maybe a shock to you but a top marathon runner is travelling at close to 13mph for 2 hours...
a top marathon runner is travelling at close to 13mph for 2 hours…
Don't you just hate it when you're stuck behind one?
Cougar
Full Member
I’m all for autobahns, they’re great, crack on. 😆So am I, but I wouldn’t want to walk down the middle of one.
Yeah, that's where infrastructure and town planning coming in, discourage cars encourage ebikes and scooters, and as if by magic, there's alot more space on the roads for ebikes and scooters, and normal bikes.
Results in an overall more pleasant town or city centre.
Yeah, but ebikes and scooters really should be at the forefront of a green transport revolution. So naw, fault lies with the government.
That's kinda like saying that it's okay to steal bikes, because it's really a socio-economic problem, so it's really the government's fault.
Just because there's an underlying problem doesn't mean that the individuals concerned aren't dicks.
Nonsense. Not even close to the same thing.
Yip, the legal limit on ebikes with no license insurance etc should around 25/ 30mph tbh.
Personally, mines is set so I kick around about 21-24mph, 36×11 gearing in so start to pedal out not far beyond that.
Maybe that’s the approach that should be took on ebikes, rather than power, a gearing limit should probably be applied.
No, I think anything that can sustain 30 mph needs to be much more carefully regulated. A shitty old hardtail with rim brakes just isn't safe at those speeds. Standard bicycle parts just aren't up to being used as a motorbike, something fast enough and powerful enough to sustain 30 mph needs to be regulated as a motorbike.
They are perfectly capable. I've been horsing mine about on a 10 year old hardtail for a few years now off and on road. Perfectly safe. Probably safer on road tbh.
The power going through an ebike is nothing like what goes through a motorbike. They are very different.
Should we start licencing normal bikes too then? Roadies or people that go downhill faster than 30? It's the same principle really, cause maintenance level vary wildly there.