[Closed] If you were Cav...

I'm sure he knew the score when he signed up!

Definitely, right now he's doing nothing for the team, and they're doing nothing for him.

Froome will probably move on, too.

I don't think so - the Tour organisers were quite open about that fact that they devised the tour last year pretty much in mind with Cav being able to win green. To them it made sense that if he's the best sprinter in the world then theres something wrong with the tour if he doesn't win it. But it doesn't seem like they've done that this year

Up til now I've not really seen that many stages that Cav would have been contesting, so apart from Paris I think he's got his eye on other prizes this year.

Cav was interviewed on the ITV4 coverage and seemed entirely happy that this year was Brad's year, and the entire team, including him, were working to that end. And I think he's using the Tour as conditioning for the Olympics

It will be interesting next year though, as one would assume that Wiggo will want to defend the yellow jersey, Froome will want to win the jersey and Cav will want the green jersey back.

Cav's saving himself for the Olympics.

He'll have a go at a sprint if it doesn't comnpromise his Olympic chances or the yellow jersey but he's not going to give 100% now that the green jersey's gone.

Sky did a good job for Cav at the Giro etc. Why would he go elsewhere?

Not at this stage. Just like many times before his team has gone all out to get him to the line so he can win the points jersey for the team, this year it's about getting Wiggins to the line so he can win yellow for the team. You have to assume he knew that before he joined so if there was an inkling he wasn't happy (which i haven't seen so far) to me it's like a footballer joining a club that is reknowned for rotating its squad and then moaning they don't play every game.

I also suspect that Sky will be balls out in Paris to get him to the line on the Champs Elysees.

right now he's doing nothing for the team

Harsh, him and BE did a fair bit in the last mountain stage, having watched how they went off yesterday there was no point in chasing.

I can see him being frustrated but I assume he will wait and see what the options are.

As for Froome he has benefited from being on a team with the Yellow.

[i]right now he's doing nothing for the team[/i]

Apart from fetching and carrying stuff from the team cars, leading the pull up the start of the climb the other day, being with the rest of the team/protecting Wiggo in the peloton...

[edit]in interviews, the word Cav uses most often is 'team'.

Yes, a bit infra dig for the world champ!

If Sky had upped the pace to get him to the line it could have resulted in a knackered team going into the crucial day on Wednesday so I guess the decision was made not to endanger Bradley in yellow.

Cav works for Bradley in the tour, Bradley works for Cav on the Champs Elysees and the Olympics. They don't come across as anything other than happy with the deal in the interviews.

I think Cav's main interest in this TdF is winning on the Champs Elysees then going on to win gold in London.
He's had the backing of what's essentially Team Sky to win the World Championships so it's payback time now.

He'll have known full well what he was signing up for when he signed for Sky and I'm sure that he won't get as much of a lucrative contract anywhere else!

[i]Yes, a bit infra dig for the world champ![/i]

I don't think he sees himself as the individual world champion. He's sees the jersey as a reward for a team effort, and is now repaying that team.

as one would assume that Wiggo will want to defend the yellow jersey

Not convinced. He seems like a team player, I reckon he'd be happy to help out Froome next year. There's talk of it being super hilly to mark the 100th Tour.

But that may be PR. I was worried about Cav earlier this year, yes it's a good idea to try and develop as an all-round rider as your sprint speed goes, but I wonder if he didn't do this slightly too early and if the ORR hasn't spoiled his season, oh and picking the 'wrong' team IMO...

right now he's doing nothing for the team

Apart from carrying bidons, jackets, taking long turns on the front and not stabbing Brad in the back like that tosser Froome 😉

I'm dissapointed at his lack of stage wins but impressed with his humility, think he may get his reward in the Olympics...and next year's green Jersey

He'll have to tear the green jersey off Sagan!

I seem to remember him saying at the start "...we're a GC team...". (might not have been his exact words). I also think that there's more to Froome's interview in L'Équipe - ITV4 were insinuating that context may have been lost in the translation, but at the same time, it was bad timing to say what he said just before defending the team's yellow in the Pyrenees. Cycling teams are funny though aren't they? There must be fairly strange dynamics going on between all the riders.

I think Cav has been great so far. He's worked hard and not whinged.

[i]right now he's doing nothing for the team[/i]

Apart from fetching and carrying stuff from the team cars, leading the pull up the start of the climb the other day, being with the rest of the team/protecting Wiggo in the peloton...

I didn't mean he wasn't a team player, or that he was complaining, but for the amount Sky must be paying him...

[i]impressed with his humility[/i]

Me too, very. I used to think he was a bit of a whinging tosspot, but over the past couple of years he really seems to have matured.

I wonder if he's saving himself for the Olympics...

Of course he won't move on.

He knew the deal when he joined.
Sky have been clear about the GC being the target for this tour.
His focus this year is on the Olympics.
He's been doing a team role where able.
He may be frustrated but he will know that the tour is really a part of his training for the Olympics.

He's with one of the strongest, teams that is British and starting to dominate. next year will be different, with new goals etc

Where else would he go?

don simon - Member
I wonder if he's saving himself for the Olympics...

Don't come around here spouting all that rational thinking. I reckon he's got his sights on joining Ducatti.

I'm not even sure he could live with Sagan anyway right now. When you look at how Sagan went up the hills a couple of days ago, bridging to the group in front of him then pushing them faster, you'd have to say he's the right man in the right place. I think it was always going to be Cav does what he can in the first week, the 2nd week to get the yellow on Wiggins' shoulders and then the rest of the tour to keep it there.

The peloton seem to view it as Sky's responsibility to bring back the breaks for some reason. I'm surprised Green Edge, Lotto and Lampre haven't done more to haul them back given their main reason for being there is sprint finishes.

.

I also think that there's more to Froome's interview in L'Équipe - ITV4 were insinuating that context may have been lost in the translation

Nah he's a bit of a loose cannon advertising himself for a team leaders role for next season

He wasn't a good support for Brad in the Vuelta last yr either, think DB kept him in the team to keep anyone else from having him!

He's with one of the strongest, teams that is British and starting to dominate. next year will be different, with new goals etc

Where else would he go?

Any other team, I'd have thought. I'm not convinced the fact that Sky is a (semi) British team would make a lot of difference - it's one thing racing for Britain at the WCs or Olympics, but professional road racing is another matter.

And I can't see Sky's goals being radically different if Wiggins is (hopefully!) defending a yellow jersey next year.

He wasn't a good support for Brad in the Vuelta last yr either, think DB kept him in the team to keep anyone else from having him!

Still wonder what would have happened if he hadn't been quite so loyal to Wiggins last year, could he have won?

got to love it when folks that watch 2 weeks of the tour cycling suddenly become experts on what teams should do based on one race.

Still wonder what would have happened if he hadn't been quite so loyal to Wiggins last year, could he have won?

Sources close to Wiggo reckon if he'd been more loyal Brad would have won!

Sources close to Wiggo reckon if he'd been more loyal Brad would have won!

Maybe, but the feeling I got watching the race was that Wiggins was holding him back. Of course, Froome would get beaten in the time trial, but it'd be pretty close.

Cav is the world's best sprinter (or at least would be if he was aiming to be that right now) and has consciously taken the decision along with the team to target the Olympic RR rather than another green jersey because they know full well that in the British public's eye, that's more important. Winning the RR will need him to be in form that is not so well suited to winning green at the tour - eg lighter to be able to stick with the bunch over box hill 9 times when every team without a top sprinter will be trying to kill the sprinters off over the climbs.

I see no conflict. He's using the tour to get the form he'll need for the RR with the aim of winning a stage or two (esp the Champs Elysees).

That's not to say that he's enjoying not winning at the tour but equally, every rider who's been part of a team that's won the TdF has said that it was a brilliant experience - something which, fingers crossed, Cav will get to experience that he almost certainly never would on a more normal team that's built around his sprints.

[i]I see no conflict. He's using the tour to get the form he'll need for the RR with the aim of winning a stage or two (esp the Champs Elysees). [/i]

eggs act lee

Any other team, I'd have thought. I'm not convinced the fact that Sky is a (semi) British team would make a lot of difference - it's one thing racing for Britain at the WCs or Olympics, but professional road racing is another matter.

Really ?

He left HTC with the best lead out train to move to Sky. He couldn't move to any other team unless they could match his wages I'd have thought - certainly not Garmin who last night said they couldn't afford Froome. Any new team would have to have a lead out train to at least match Sky.

The British cycling setup changed track cycling and have stated that they are taking the same approach with the road.
The management are the same and they had a bad first year, were stronger last year and are dominating this year. It may well be different but their approach seems to be working.

But could Froome win the Tour in a different team? People are banging on about it, but he was quite some time down on Wiggins before the mountains and he has made a couple of small breaks that seemed to show he could leave him behind, but Wiggins doesn't ride like that - he would have a different team around him to reel a breakaway in using his steady increase in pace.

Yes he might have been in with a shout this year but only because it would be mutiny, leaving Wiggins a man down to defend his lead.

but he was quite some time down on Wiggins before the mountains

Wasn't there a crash or something accounting for that lost time?

Cav's still pulling hard, don't dismiss him too readily folks. If you were in his clips you'd be doing the same. Riding hard when needed, sprinting for wins when available and supporting your team when you can and taking opportunities if they present themselves. He was carrying water bottles the other day.. I like that.
I come form a Cav haterz angle when he was with HTC but now I think he's matured and become one of the most thoughtful/thinking riders out there, in essance, he's matured.

Cav for the win on CEle', no doubt, no doubt what so ever.

I do think he'll have a hard time in the Oly's mind..

"Yes he might have been in with a shout this year but only because it would be mutiny, leaving Wiggins a man down to defend his lead. "

and a few things would happen - he would be unpopular in peloton - doesnt do wonders for your career really , doesnt do wonders for gettting a new team even if you were TDF winner

cav wont be worried anyway - its a payday for him if brad wins ! - ok not as much as green but it leaves him to find his form for olympics.

Wasn't there a crash or something accounting for that lost time?

"I do think he'll have a hard time in the Oly's mind.. "

well i must say that if i was a betting man i wouldnt bet my money on cav .....

TdF green beats olympic gold IMO. I think he'll be marked out of the ORR, Sagan or Greipel to win.

mastiles_fanylion - Member

Not sure

Yes, the time gaps from Wiggo to him are a small amount at the first TT, 30 seconds at the second TT and the rest in crash(es).

I think Froome's doing an admirable job of sticking to the team plan which is based on which rider has the best probability of winning. It's always hard to say 'what if' but it's quite possible that Froome could be stronger and I think he's being perfectly reasonable in saying that if next year's course is more suited to him (which for the 100th TdF, it may well be) then he'd expect Sky to play fair and nominate him as the team leader.

ohnohesback - Member
TdF green beats olympic gold IMO

To cyclists in the know, of course. I think that's not who Sky and Cav are looking to though. Wiggins is well known because of the Olympics. If Cav wins the RR then in the UK he'll be remembered for that more than the Green jersey which most people really don't understand (he won but he finished X hours behind the winner? eh?)

I think he'll be marked out of the ORR

Quite possibly but there are only 5 man teams so it's much harder to mark him out and other teams will also be looking for a sprint - Germany for one, quite possible the Aussies. Not to mention that he was the most marked man in history at the World Champs and we all know how that ended 🙂

"he'd expect Sky to play fair and nominate him as the team leader."

rumours of a.n.other team buying out his contract been rubbished yet ?

My understanding is that the deal is - Cav will work for Wiggins and co for the GC at le Tour, and they will work for him for the gold at the Olympics ? Seems quite fair to me. He will get better sponsorship deals with an Olympic medal in his hand, won in front of 60 million Brits, than he will for winning some incomprehensible jersey in France. (is a jersey all they could afford to give him for a prize seems a bit mean ?)

I wouldn't count the Aussies out at the Olympics mind, and Froome needs to pick a country, let alone a team.

I wouldn't be at the Tour De France . .

Excellent, thanks for that, just the kind of image I need on a thread I'm reading and contributing to at work. Nice one.

😐 sorry

I don't believe that Cav is primarily motivated by money, I used to think he was all about personal glory, but I'm now thinking he's a team player too.
He's a legend.

love it when folks that watch 2 weeks of the tour cycling suddenly become expert

this is based on following about 4 Tours de France and the the rest of past two international seasons (Paris-Nice, Giro, Daupine, etc.) - do I qualify to have an opinion?

Sagan has managed to get the green jersey riding on a team dedicated to getting Nibali to 1st in the GC (which they may still do) so he (cav) shouldn't really have any complaints.

[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/video-rod-ellingworth-on-mark-cavendishs-form ]Clicky[/url]

Three objectives for Cav in this tour. To win a stage, preferably the Champs Elysées in his rainbow jersey, to help Bradley/ the team where possible and prepare for the Olympics.

Sagan has managed to get the green jersey riding on a team dedicated to getting Nibali to 1st in the GC (which they may still do) so he (cav) shouldn't really have any complaints.

you know cav and sagan aren't the same person right? although its a team sport, it does come more than slightly down to the individual...

Cav's move to Sky works on many different levels. He has already won Green, and may do so in the future again, if the race is structured to allow him to. Even with the HTC team of last year it is doubtful that he could have won it this year, especially with the rise of Sagan. He has won a stage and will be in good shout in the final stage.

Sky and British Cycling are linked, as such Sky will be making sure that Cav is in the right form for the ORR. In the cycling world Green may top Gold, for the majority of the public this is not the case. BC need Gold(s) to keep the funding coming in. Sky need BC to keep developing cyclists.

Cav also gets to have a go, with Sky support, at the classics and the other Grand Tours. While the TdF is rightly dominating our TV, there is more to cycling than just the TdF.

Froome is different. Assuming that Wiggins wins this year, then he will be the team leader for next, Froome must know that. Froome is doing well because the team built for Wiggins benefits him as well. For him to be a team leader he needs a team. If he moves, then the rest of the team are as important.

Personally, I think that Sky have him lined up to be the team leader in a couple of years time. Could backfire, but he can see what they have done for Wiggins and could do for him. Also he will be probably be be the team leader in the other grand tours.

"this is based on following about 4 Tours de France and the the rest of past two international seasons (Paris-Nice, Giro, Daupine, etc.) - do I qualify to have an opinion?"

are you the OP chatting shit ? or someone else entirely.

[i]you know cav and sagan aren't the same person right? although its a team sport, it does come more than slightly down to the individual... [/i]

I'm not saying they are, and Cav is still the faster sprinter by quite a way, Sagan has managed to get the green jersey without a lead out train so it is possible to do without a team working to that aim.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18867359 ]nice acknowledgement from Wiggins[/url]

I'm not saying they are, and Cav is still the faster sprinter by quite a way, Sagan has managed to get the green jersey without a lead out train so it is possible to do without a team working to that aim.

not for cav it isnt.

My money is on Froome taking out Australian citizenship in the next few years.

Sagan has managed to get the green jersey without a lead out train

Different type of rider, different wins. Sagan's much better at being in the breakaway than Cav, and hill climbing. There are green points available for every stage afaik not just the bunch sprint ones.

[i]not for cav it isnt. [/i]

really ? he may well have had four wins by now, 1 crash, 1 misjudgement and if he was in the position behind wiggins instead of Edvard (or better still tucked in behind EBH).

are you the OP chatting shit ? or someone else entirely.

😕 someone else.

My money is on Froome taking out Australian citizenship in the next few years.

I've said elsewhere Rabobank might work well for him; they're one of the few teams with a budget big enough to buy out his contract, they're in desperate need of someone who can actually win things instead of being an orange dot down the road from the leaders/crashing, and I'd expect he already speaks a bit of Dutch (OK, Afrikaans) after spending his teens in SA.

Andy

Was a bit pants that no one chased the break yesterday but it wasn't Sky's job to, it's more GreenEdge and Lotto couldn't be bothered with the effort when the reward was far from guaranteed. No way should Sky have chased with the Pyrenees coming up.

Pretty sure Cav knew he'd be on his own this TdF and outside of the first week and Paris he'd be on domestique duty, unfortunately the first week didn't go as planned due to crashes.

I'm a bit worried about his conditioning for the Olympics now though - I know Boardman keeps repeating that riding the entire TdF is the best prep he could do for the Olympics and ofc Boardman has forgotten more about training than I'll ever know but surely the way he's going now he's not even really sprinting. Long TdF stages might be the ideal base for the long Olympics RR but surely he needs to keep the fast-twitch muscles going as well, if he were contesting intermediate sprints and the finishes then that might well be enough but he's given up on that and won't be trying again until Paris - so he'll have done 2.5 weeks of just steady hard miles. He'd have been better off in a training camp with sprints mixed in and maybe the Tour of Poland, although I'm guessing he would have preferred the TdF option :p

ohnohesback - Member
[I]TdF green beats olympic gold IMO[/I]

To cyclists in the know, of course. I think that's not who Sky and Cav are looking to though. Wiggins is well known because of the Olympics. If Cav wins the RR then in the UK he'll be remembered for that more than the Green jersey which most people really don't understand (he won but he finished X hours behind the winner? eh?)

+1

TBH I think Sky are focused on a much longer term set of goals, a rolling 3 year-ish plan, and keeping their jerseys in finish line and podium pictures in both cycling and general sporting media...

Its a long term integrated plan and built around pushing several big names (with BC support) into the public eye rather than just one face...
The fact that Froome, Wiggins and Cavendish' names all get kicked about when talking TDF/ORR is sort of testament to that.

They've seen the benefits of dominating Track
and are modifying that model to suit a road team and it seems to be working...

Building a 5 man ORR Sky/BC squad around Cav' could work it all depends on how well other national cycling bodies/sponsors have worked and planned together, its a gamble and it needs that lead rider to get a bit leaner and of course not tear his legs off on the tour, and look what we've got, a steady pared down Cav' playing his part in the team, but not picking up injuries or knackering himself over in france.

Cav' can still target 2013/14/15 TDF glory but i think the value of an ORR gold in terms of his Public exposure and value for sponsorship/endorsements cannot be underestimated...
The boys gotta shift anti-dandruff shampoo and TV subscriptions to the masses at the end of the day and an olympic gold will do that far better...

yeh really.

cav has the best jump in the peleton. no doubt about it.

but despite being though of as a sprinters jersey, its an accumulation of points rather than pure sprint stage wins. ergo greipel is a LONG way off winning it, depsite winning 3 stages already.

as said above, if you have whole team working to defend it, and a tour that is better designed around the green jersey finding its way onto a pure sprinter then it will be his every time.

IMO it should be a strong man's jersey rather than a stage finishers jersey, and thus it fits sagan/hushovd better.

If I were Cav...

Well first off I wouldn't be in the slightest bit bothered what a bunch of guys on an internet forum were spouting out about me having "lost it" or "choosing the wrong team" etc.

Cav has IMO done absolutely the right thing. He had lots of help last year at the World Champs, and is essentially repaying a debt this TdF to Wiggins and team Sky, but also going some way to overpay it so he is still owed a favour as such (which they will repay him) by working their asses off to get him the Gold at the Olympics.

People watching from afar lose sight of just how much cycling at that level is a team sport. Imagine if there was no peloton, and the Tour was one enormous 3 week time trial where everybody had to ride on their own... The prospects don't bear thinking about, but you'd be lucky if you had a dozen finishers (or even a dozen starters for that matter!). The Tour is what it is cos it's all about the tactics the teams use to get their important men in the right place at the right time. For instance, you don't see the likes of 17 time TdF rider George Hincapie moaning about not getting his turn, despite the fact he helped Lance Armstrong to 7 victories, Evans to 1, and has done a huge amount of work for many others in his time.

Cav has done a sterling job this Tour, he was unlucky on a couple of early stages that he could have won but got caught up in crashes just short of the finish line, but he was never trying to contest the Green Jersey this year even from day one. The Green Jersey really isn't as important as a lot of people make it out to be. It only attracts the same prize money as the Polka Dot Jersey (which we Brits don't seem to give a toss about as no British man is going to win it!) which is 25,000 Euro's. Not bad but that's only the same as 3 stage wins at 8,000 Euro's a pop. The overall TdF win carries with it 450,000 Euro's, 2nd place (which Froome looks as good as certain to take) brings a strong 200,000 Euro's. Basically the Green isn't that important at all, it's certainly nothing like as important a prize as an Olympic Gold.

And you can forget about how important the TdF is in the real world, regardless of your ambitions, an Olympic Gold medal is practically a meal ticket for life! That'll be worth a hell of a lot more to Cav in the grand scheme of things than another Green Jersey (he's already proved himself once, and can do again next year and the year after etc.). Any person in their right mind would shift their priorities based on the possibility of what essentially being setup for life could do...

I like the fact that sometimes it's a sprinters jersey and other times it's a 'strong man's' one - makes it more interesting IMO.

I like the fact that sometimes it's a sprinters jersey and other times it's a 'strong man's' one - makes it more interesting IMO.

agree with that actually. just think im ultimately (jerseys aside) more of a fan of the roulers than the pure sprinters.

Cav is working for the team just like the members of the Sky squad did when he became world champion, being part of a team means you make sacrifices for each other, I'm sure Sky will give Froome the opportunity to win the Tour next year, Wiggins has already admitted he is probably a one Tour win rider.

mboy i think i agree with your general sentiment (i.e. this year is olympics year for cav so he isnt too arsed about other competetions) but....

The Green Jersey really isn't as important as a lot of people make it out to be. It only attracts the same prize money as the Polka Dot Jersey (which we Brits don't seem to give a toss about as no British man is going to win it!) which is 25,000 Euro's. Not bad but that's only the same as 3 stage wins at 8,000 Euro's a pop. The overall TdF win carries with it 450,000 Euro's, 2nd place (which Froome looks as good as certain to take) brings a strong 200,000 Euro's. Basically the Green isn't that important at all, it's certainly nothing like as important a prize as an Olympic Gold.

the 'value/importance/worth' of a jersey/win really has sod all to do with cash...

I'm sure Sky will give Froome the opportunity to win the Tour next year

jesus that's worth a punt against... what odds can i have on that one please?

(IMO) not a chance in hell that Sky would usurp wiggins following this year's perfromance.

the 'value/importance/worth' of a jersey/win really has sod all to do with cash...

Oh I agree totally

I just added the cash values associated with them to bring some relative "worth" into the picture... For instance, we forget all about the Polka Dot Jersey as no British Guy is going to win it, so to us it's unimportant. We place a very high importance on the Green Jersey as Cav has for the last few years been in with a shout of it.

I just used the cash prizes to highlight that. For instance, if Froome does finish 2nd, he will earn 8 times as much money in doing so than Cav would have done in Winning the Green Jersey! The Green, Polka Dot and White Jersey's really are only token prizes, they're not as important as we make them out to be. Of course, that doesn't detract from the likes of Cav/Sagan/Griepel etc. who still want to win it, but it's nothing like as important a a GC win if you get me.

Is it still traditional that prize money gets pooled and shared by the team - as a reflection that an individual might get to stand on the top step, but it's a team that puts him there?

so to us it's unimportant.

im not sure who 'us' is... it's not in the news, as (as you say) we don't have any contenders...

The Green, Polka Dot and White Jersey's really are only token prizes, they're not as important as we make them out to be.

I just don't think that's true.

finally on the cash thing again...they share the money out amongst the ENTIRE team out anyway. (and i mean ENTIRE - right down to mechanics, truck drivers etc.) its not like froome is playing for a 200k bonus this year, and cav will go home peniless.

For instance, we forget all about the Polka Dot Jersey

It was a pretty big deal when Robert Millar won it, he got quite a few endorsements as a result and they made a TV programme about him

jonv - Yes.

For instance, you don't see the likes of 17 time TdF rider George Hincapie moaning about not getting his turn, despite the fact he helped Lance Armstrong to 7 victories, Evans to 1, and has done a huge amount of work for many others in his time

Yep, similarly goalkeepers don't complain about not getting the chance to score goals. Or a more accurate analogy would be Rugby. Forwards work their balls off all match and rarely get the chance to score tries. But they are the foundation of the team and everyone recognises that, good ones are valuable players.

I was going to say that the teams should share out the prize money - glad to hear that they do!

Before Cav won Green last year, he held a press conference and one of his questions to the gathered media (who obviously all been slagging him off for not winning Green up to that point) was "name the previous 3 Green jersey winners".

It was quite telling that none of the journos could - basically an indication that, outside of the most anal of cycling fans, no one remembers after a year or so.

Certainly to the mainstream media, Gold medals at the Olympics trump pretty much everything else.

I struggle with long sentences so this might have been covered

But Cav stated in an interview last night that he had a team working for him to get the world champions jersey and now he is working to get Wiggins the yellow Jersey in the Tour. It's a team sport and he is not expecting payback he is repaying the debt for the help he got to get those rainbow stripes.

I think he genuinely wants to see Wiggins in yellow and will do so to his own detriment during the tour.

If I were Cav - I'd be over the moon that my team had the yellow jersey wearer & bloke who looks like he's going to win the TDF in it.....

There's no "I" in team,guessing quite a few on here have never been part of a team to understand that ..............

Careful peeps, we're very close to agreeing with each other here...