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Could you fly around the world? Would it be feasible if you had say a light aircraft? Or as a private individual can you buy and run a plane capable of crossing a decent bit of ocean?
Crossing oceans I would assume be quite achievable, otherwise what’s the point.
Or are you talking the little single/twin Cessna types ? In which case doubt it, but the variety of small airports you’d need to stop at would be quite exciting.
Who was that women who crossed the Atlantic? Erghart or something ?? Or did she go around the world .. all in small single engines plane n’all.
You can glide around the world, didn’t Branson do it a few years ago? And didn’t they send a shuttle to collect him 😜👏🚀
An empty 747 has apparently done London to Sydney in a single hop so if you increased the fuel tank it should manage it. A much smaller, more efficient plane should manage it.
I think there are a lot more hoops to jump through if it’s a single engined plane flying over a big bit of water, as there is no back up if it conks out, but twin shouldn’t be an issue.
I'm not talking about technically, just practically and legally. The question is two fold:
1) Could you do it in a light aircraft i.e. hopping from airfield to airfield over land. Could you get fuel, maintenance etc? Do the relevant authorities allow this kind of thing?
2) Could a private individual buy and run a plane big enough to fly transatlantic, say? Would you get permission to land and so on, or would you need to set yourself up as an airline and be regulated etc?
My father frequently flew Islanders solo from the Isle of Wight to places such as Fiji. Including this one, as it happens.
1) Could you do it in a light aircraft i.e. hopping from airfield to airfield over land. Could you get fuel, maintenance etc? Do the relevant authorities allow this kind of thing?
Yes. See above.
2) Could a private individual buy and run a plane big enough to fly transatlantic, say? Would you get permission to land and so on, or would you need to set yourself up as an airline and be regulated etc?
Yes. Again, as above. However, to get clearance, insurance, etc. the pilot would need to be properly qualified. Solo, with sufficient fuel, there are a massive number of planes that have the range to go transatlantic.
Some friends of mine have just taken their private plane to the states and on to the Caribbean. It was a lot of work and a lot of effort finding places to land and park up. Cost them a fortune too. Great adventure but not for the faint hearted
Nice video of some of the trials and tribulations:
I think they technically set themselves up as an airline but it is possible
What a great little video.
How did they get Betty unstuck from the gravel though?!
Or are you talking the little single/twin Cessna types ? In which case doubt it
There are ferry pilots who specialise in delivering small planes to and from the USA.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34484972
Or are you talking the little single/twin Cessna types ? In which case doubt it, but the variety of small airports you’d need to stop at would be quite exciting.
I once asked a question on an aircraft fan forum. The Euro Lotto was £100m or so and I felt sure if I won I’d be able to buy a private jet and fly my mates and I to Whistler, sounds easy yeah? Nope.
Firstly a lot of Private Jets are great for flying around the states or around Europe, but not many are actually capable of crossing the Atlantic - well not UK to US anyway, really it’s a couple of very large, very expenses ones - expensive that a £100m fortune isn’t going to do it for you, well unless you’re prepared to drop half of it on a plane. Apparently Conrad Black was once flying First Class from NYC to London with his Wife Barbara Amiel, no doubt to do some terrible thing to the small people to feed his greed and ego, anyway Lady Black was moaning to him about how her friends could take their jets back to London and she had to slum it on BA and Black had to explain to her that whilst her friends were billionaires, they merely had hundreds of millions so their jet(s) were smaller.
But I guess that’s not really the question, a lot of it depends on how skilled / brave / stupid you are and you need a mix of all 3 really. If you look at the map using the Azores as your mid point doesnt seem a bad idea, but on a globe it’s less obvious. Really the best way to go is UK-Ireland-Iceland-Greenland-Canada-Alaska-Russia-Finland-Norway-UK.
Unless you have a pretty large aircraft and/or auxiliary tanks in he cabin you’re taking a big risk because there will be times when you’re past the point of no return from the airport you left and the only airport in range is the one you’re heading to, if it closes for any reason you’re going to have to beg them to open, or attempt an emergency landing somewhere. That’s around the northern hemisphere and you’ll see a lot of endless snow and ice. You could head south once you’re over North America, the Americans love to fly so there’s lots of smaller air strips and fields you can stop at to refuel rest. If you’ve got the range and don’t mind risking never being seen again you could fly US mainland, Hawaii, Fiji Australia/New Zealand, but that would mean flying back North West which means flying over the Middle East, could be interesting.
Oh PS some pilots do stuff like above delivering planes for customers, they tend to be very experienced, ex-military types. Dangerous Game.
yes, ferry pilots do this sort of thing as a job, but those guys are often ex-military. You'd need navigation skills, probably an instrument rating and radio rating/licence, probably night flying rating and licences and experience. The route across the Atlantic is up over Iceland a Greenland (the approaches of which can be more than I little interesting) and of course if it all goes wrong over the North Atlantic you're probably going to die. Flying over the rest of the world you'd need permission to overfly (there's probably many countries that would prohibit this, landing permissions, re-fuelling...
buy yeah in theory...
I wonder if it would be cheaper and easier overall to charter local pilot&plane as you went.
Cessna CJ4's about 9 million dollars and has a range of 4000km, according to Wiki - that's gotta be within the realms of a £100 million Euromilions win, innit? Won't do a full tranatlantic but just lop into the Azores for lunch and a couple of gallons of unleaded, job's a good 'un.
I wonder if it would be cheaper and easier overall to charter local pilot&plane as you went.
Without a doubt. I think you would end up limited in when and where you can go so owning your own is the only option in some cases. It also misses the point a bit but you will get some of the benefits of private air travel
We were filming on the air ambulance earlier in the summer, slightly disheartening when they talk about flying somewhere and you've got to drive there the next day and you realise it's basically a day in the car to do what they do in an hour.
If I was a millionaire I'd definitely have a helicopter (and have to buy a plantation the size of Yorkshire to offset the CO2). Realistically its quick enough to cover England fast enough that it doesn't matter, and you can land it almost anywhere whereas a plane needs an airport and a taxi to wherever you're going.
I did once meet Malcolm Birdend on a cycling holiday, more than a little envious when he got a taxi to the local airport and the Shell private jet picked him up to take him wherever his morning meeting was. We spent 2 hours on a minibus, another couple in malaga airport, another 3 on the plane, another couple in stanstead getting luggage and waiting for the train and an hour on the train and walk back to my flat to sleep knackered. He basically gained a day on everyone by being rich & important!
that 1950's twin prop is beautiful. What an experience.
I've always fancied a seaplane but the downside is the added drag reducing range so more stops.
Passenger airliners with 2 engines operate under ETOPS for routes that require them to be over 60 minutes from a suitable airport for safe landing. No idea about the rules for private aircraft once you are in international airspace and the risk is for you to assess and deal with.
The discovery channel had a show ‘dangerous flights’ that followed a group of ferry pilots around, and while I’ve no doubt some of the jeopardy was wound up to 11, it did show what kind of bother you could get into if you weren’t up to scratch.
Cessna CJ4’s about 9 million dollars and has a range of 4000km, according to Wiki – that’s gotta be within the realms of a £100 million Euromilions win, innit? Won’t do a full tranatlantic but just lop into the Azores for lunch and a couple of gallons of unleaded, job’s a good ‘un.
Yeah, as above technically you can hop it in most small planes, but transatlantic non-stop is mega money, even if £9m somehow by the spirit of this thread isn’t. Plus, and whilst I don’t pretend to understand it, if you want to stick to the rules and massively reduce the chances of you dying and never being found, you can’t just think - well it’ll do 4000km, lets find an airport 3800km away and go there. You’re meant to leave a healthy margin for error / bad weather and have the range to divert to another airport if the destination airport is closed for whatever reason - the Azores of course are known for being a ‘a bit far’ from anywhere else.
Truthfully, if you ‘just’ want to fly UK to North America private, you charter a jet for tens of thousands rather than buying a Gulfstream for $50m or whatever, actually owning a jet is just really daft.
Not to mention, even if your numbers do come in big, you can’t just take a half-day course in a little Cessna ‘to get the gist of it’ and then send your G6 down the runway and set google maps for somewhere nice. I think if you threw piles of money at it and we’re natually talented at flying it would take years of study and practice to be able to fly a multi-engine jet.
I'd be totally up for learning to fly when the numbers come good - not transatlantic, that seems way too big a roll of the dice, but just to be able to get to the airport and go. Mega. 🙂
We were having a convo at work on thurs about the exact same thing. I think the conclusion was just fly first class more places more times, than owning and maintaining a plane/jet and paying a pilot.
Certainly long-haul as first class, I'd get me licence and a plane for shorter journeys. And one of this for the heck of it. 🙂
In answer to the OP. Yes.
Should give you the route
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-28710976?print=true
For the the news article.
Single engined Comanche btw.
Double post
but just to be able to get to the airport and go.
If you have your own plane why bother going to the airport? (:
£1.25mil for a spitfire is nothing compared to the running costs, were you to actually fly it.
£1.25mil for a spitfire is nothing compared to the running costs, were you to actually fly it.
I think you might be two decimal points out there..!
I’d be totally up for learning to fly when the numbers come good – not transatlantic, that seems way too big a roll of the dice, but just to be able to get to the airport and go. Mega.
I’d love that, I have a bit of a thing for the Honda Jet. I think it’s about £5m.
You still can’t just roll up and go though.
Honesty though, if you’re seriously caked, 1st class is nice, but chartering is the one - call up Netjets or whoever, tell ‘em where you are and where you want to go and they’ll send the right jet and crew to you. Its really expensive, but I’m sure someone said that if you can fill all the seat it can be cheaper than 1st with a carrier per head.
You could do but why on Earth would you? I got half way through my PPL twenty years ago and thought to myself ‘what’s the point’? Costa you a fortune to get it, Costa you even more to progress further and maintain it and for what? What are you going to do once you’ve got it? Flying is pretty boring really, once you’re up there isn’t a lot to do other than look out of the window. If I won the lottery i’d pay someone else to fly me around or work towards flying old warbirds or something.
I remember reading this -> http://www.cessna150-152.com/transatlantic.htm account of flying a small Cessna across the atlantic. Had to fit a massive fuel tank and take it easy. I found it an interesting read. Sometimes wish I'd pushed on getting a license!
Edit: wobbliscott - I didn't even get half way before having the same thoughts! I am still romantically attached to the idea of having a license and owning a (share in a) plane though. Microlights are much more cost effective.
What you need is a Piper Cub. They’re ace. Loads of videos of them taking off from deserted beaches/glaciers etc. Take off distance of less than 100ft. Much less on a treadmill 😉. Works a treat if you run out fuel with no airfields around. Crap mid ocean though!
There’s a couple of Scandinavian folk who will only fly to airfields to refuel, otherwise the ultimate wild camping machine!
had a mate with a Cessna 172, you can get two mtbs in the back, Orkney, Shetland, Hebrides, Ireland, France, sheep cleared before landing on Gigha, the meadow at Tiree, being amazed at the runways (and hanger) at Wick[WW2 airport so massive), bricking it as we landed as Shetland - down to 1/4 tank, all other airports fogged, truly relieved at hearing the rescue chopper practising, and landing over the cars as we were desperate to get down (fog coming in)- the first time the pilot ever went to the pub before checking in with the family. Bloody unreliable way to travel though - weather ,,,,, but then seeing Scotland at 1000-2000 feet was truly awesome - flew along the N coast, I usedd to live at Dunnet Head, dad worked at Cape Wrath - AWESOME
Truthfully, if you ‘just’ want to fly UK to North America private, you charter a jet for tens of thousands rather than buying a Gulfstream for $50m or whatever, actually owning a jet is just really daft.
Or, like Alan Sugar, you own it, use it when you want it, and then rent it out for a fortune to others she you don't. Tidy little money maker!
You could do but why on Earth would you?
See Towzer's post above.
I wouldn't do it even if I were rich enough; tbh I wouldn't even learn to fly. Too much theory and hard work, and not really safe enough I reckon. I was just curious.
I'd sooner cycle round the world than fly round it.
You could do it in a small aircraft, but you'd have to take an incredibly circuitous route over Scotland, Iceland, Greenland, stopping off for fuel along the way in each place and hoping you have enough to make each way point.
Also, your typical passenger jet trundles across the Atlantic at about Mach .85, or about 575mph through the air. A single engine something or other will do about a fifth of that, if you're lucky, and it'll do it in the turbulent lower levels.
Biz jet much faster but imagine cost absolutely horrendous for Atlantic crossing, as although above the track system may still need to enter it in an emergency, so you'd have to pay navigation charges too.
I’ve often thought about this, and while I really do not have the skills necessary to learn to fly anything more sophisticated than a kite, it’s nice to dream, and I dream of owning and flying something like this, a Grumman G-21 Goose...
CountZero reminds me of Tails Of The Golden Monkey 🙂
Always dream if I had the money and the skill i'd buy an Icon A5 and fly it everywhere.
These guys got to Australia in a little Cessna:
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/three-in-a-plane-on-an-incredible-journey-for-charity-1-2467661
Think you would need something bigger for the Atlantic or Pacific though...
£1.25mil for a spitfire is nothing compared to the running costs, were you to actually fly it.
I think you might be two decimal points out there..!
Nope, read the article, not just the link...
Executive jets? Pah! Luxury yachts? Sneer. The latest must-have toy for the super-rich is a good-as-new and authentic Spitfire - and it is yours for a cool £1.25m.
They are jolly nice to fly though 😉
If I were to buy myself my own plane my next act would be to buy a massive conveyor belt JUST TO PROVE YOU (AND PHYSICS) ALL WRONG!
Whats the deal with permissions to land helicopters then? I mean - you obviously can't just plonk it down wherever you like, but if you need to use a designated landing area, you lose a lot of the advantage (I imagine!)
I’d guess you can plonk it down anywhere safe if you have the landowners permission, or if you own the land.
Obv, you would need to pay attention to pylons and the like, or proximity to airports etc, but in many respects just like a car, there are rules and procedures to follow, bit you are free to operate within those quite freely.
I’d guess you can plonk it down anywhere safe if you have the landowners permission, or if you own the land.
But the landowner does not own the air above it. And as a ppl holder you have no rights to fly low level (apart from take off and landing) so the might permission you need is that of air traffic control to enter the skies and then the permission of all the various airfield controllers for everything you cross. I guess that is more of a hassle here than in some far flung place with minimal air traffic.
Anyone else see that program on Channel 4 last night with the ex Royal Marine in a Piper Cub touring Britain?
That looked like fun.
Can't imagine flying long distance over water in a single engine prop though
As Felix Dennis said "If it flies, floats or fornicates, rent it – It’s cheaper in the long run."
And as a ppl holder you have no rights to fly low level (apart from take off and landing) so the might permission you need is that of air traffic control to enter the skies and then the permission of all the various airfield controllers for everything you cross.
Much of the UK airspace outside of the SE is uncontrolled up to a reasonable altitude. Uncontrolled = no need to talk to anyone.
Controlled airspace appears around airfields, the extent and base broadly depends on the size of the airfield. e.g Bristol has controlled airspace down to ground level 5nm from the field and then various stubs for take off/landing further out, down to e.g. 1500ft.
If you avoid these, no need to talk to anyone. If you want to fly higher or in a straighter line, then ATC would normally provide permission.
It is of course much more complex than the summary above - depending on the class of airspace, whether mil or not, whether you are flying visual or instrument rules.
I guess that is more of a hassle here than in some far flung place with minimal air traffic.
The flying bit is not, but the UK has plenty of controlled airspace to deal with and the CAA has a habit of gold plating regs. For hassles free, the USA is the place to go.
Can’t imagine flying long distance over water in a single engine prop though
Sure I read in one of Andy McNab's books that he knew someone who bought a single engine plane, took the seats out and plumbed in the biggest fuel bladder he could, grabbed a dinghy on case the big fan on the front stopped going round and flew the Atlantic. Can't remember if that was a novel or a biog, though.
Also sure I've Googled 'single engine over water' or similar before now (just planning for when the numbers come good :D), and there was no clear consensus whether it made little difference or made you a moron. Without knowing much about it, I wouldn't want to transit anything much bigger than, say, Windermere in a single - multi just seems to make sense for that kind of gig.
I’d be totally up for learning to fly when the numbers come good – not transatlantic, that seems way too big a roll of the dice, but just to be able to get to the airport and go
i can fly, gliders, some helicopter flying, light aircraft and have (had - expired) night / instrument ratings. we have a saying ‘time to spare? Go by air!’ you'd be amazed quite how much phaffing there is with a plane of any description. You think you tinker with bikes? You’re not even close!
Can’t imagine flying long distance over water in a single engine prop though
Parked up at Blackbushe Airport is a Cessna 182 Skylane single engined float plane, I would guess that flying long distances over water might be a little less risky, although open ocean might be an issue...
It would be an airship.
I'd make money by hovering over the beaches of package holidaymakers on their second day.
£50 to sit in my shade with their sunburn. 🙂
Another plane I’d love to own and fly, and a more practical plane as well, is a Feisler Storch, an amazingly advanced design, with STOL capability and a very low stall speed. It would be very easy to practically drop onto a smooth beach and take off again,
Could a private individual buy and run a plane big enough to fly transatlantic, say? Would you get permission to land and so on, or would you need to set yourself up as an airline and be regulated etc?
Yes, but they are quite expensive, so that really limits who can do it, 
I’d guess you can plonk it down anywhere safe if you have the landowners permission, or if you own the land.
Pretty much. A friend had a little two seater Bell somethingorother (lost his licence now due to eyesight, but still perfectly legal to drive, DVLA are a bit less strict...) Anyway, used to just turn up and land in parent's field, just needed clearence from local ATC to pass through to get there. Lincolnshire, so watch out for fast stuff from Conningsby, Cottesmore, Cranwell, Waddington, Scampton, etc, etc. Another friend has a microlight in a barn on a nearby farm. Been up with him in it once, cleared by Cranwell to take off, just radio in and ask really. Looked clear from the ground but was quite hazy once we were up, visibilty a bit rubbish and there was some sort of event on at Cranwell about five miles away, lots of bigger and faster stuff everywhere, we could hear the radio chat but not see anything so we wimped out and went home.
Always amazed how much is up there. Can see loads more when flyng in small aircraft, sky looks clear from the ground, get up to a decent height and it's full of microlights, gliders, hot air balloons, helicopters, loads going on.
Ed Force One(s) aren't owned by Maiden, but leased. The 757s were from Astraeus (IIRC, Bruce was flying for them at the time) and the 747 from Air Atlanta Icelandic.
https://www.aircharter.co.uk/about-us/news-features/blog/backstage-on-ed-force-one
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Too expensive even for the Mighty Maiden then? Google reconds a 757 is $70million-ish, depending on spec,
https://twitter.com/RealWillJanssen/status/616925353680855040
One read of this thread and suddenly ads for private jet hire pop up on my FB feed...
I'm just surprised no-one has mentioned conveyor belts yet.
It would be an airship.
If I were rich enough then yes. Take a few days to cross the Atlantic, but I'd get to hang out in my own mobile apartment in the meantime, with a great view.
Since teen2 has just passed his EASA PPL(A), I’ve been looking at aeroplanes in a lot more detail. Thank goodness he didn’t want to fly helicopters!!! 1M gets you a small turbine Robinson R66. Just. I’d have a Turbine single engines Piper M600 please. Or more sensible, a technam dual for slow fuel burn and two engine. Nothing under 0.25M. Would still need stopover to refuel. Pilatus PC12 would get you across with one stop, it’s basically a private jet for those without the jet money - it’s a turboprop
He’s looking for a job to keep up his hours before commercial training next year. Makes a Crack habit look cheap!
My boss has got his own Lear jet, if you won the £100m then it’s probably realistic owning one.
From memory i think it costs him about £500k per annum for the fixed running costs of the plane (hangarage, full time pilot, scheduled maintenance etc) and about £1700 per hour when In the air.
Purchase cost was about $6m I think. It was used but not very old.
He’s been round the world in it with his family. It’s not transatlantic so they had to stop once or twice on the way to America but it’s easy enough to do when the pilot takes care of it all.
It’s a lovely way to travel and takes hours off any plane journey because you turn up and go, there’s no waiting at all.
As someone said earlier, he also hires it out like Alan sugar does to pay for some of the costs.
Flying is pretty boring really
Possibly isn't the leisure activity for you then. But then all you seem to be suggesting it is, is a way of getting from one airport to another, as an alternative to taking the car. Yawnsville!
OTOH
Plenty of pilots out there who love it. Plenty of flying challenges to aspire to / contests to do / types to learn / etc.
If euromillions came in for me I'd be straight at a PPL / CPL, enough to ferry the family and friends around, two in the hangar, maybe a Kodiak or something else with a few seats and rough field operation, and a Pitts or Skybolt, something fun with two places. Man can dream!
edit: that Goose would be awesome, wheels on a canoe hull!
Kodiak
3500lb load capacity, STOL, small turboprop up front...
What tundra tyres for my Kodiak?
What tundra tyres for my Kodiak?
Makes a fat bike look its been on a crash diet. Very low pressure too. Don't ask how much they cost
If you're going to do it, do it right. John Travoltas house:
https://www.aviationcv.com/aviation-blog/2016/john-travoltas-house
That's a de Haviland Tiger Moth. Pilot in rear seat, gunner in front. From an age when synchronising the machine gun with the propellers hadn't been worked out so the gun was mounted on the top wing and the gunner stood up to operate it. Possibly the most exciting thing I've ever done was looping the loop in one of those. The pilot flew it to Australia, so round the world would be possible
I came accross this youtube channel a couple of months ago, its in the USA
but it shows that flying is definitely not boring if you want to have fun
Its very american but really fantastic stuff
Trent Palmer
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4SXMZsFPZMFN5-3UuF-k6w
That’s a de Haviland Tiger Moth. Pilot in rear seat, gunner in front.
Someone's been telling you stories. It's not a fighter and I've never heard of anyone trying to mount a gun on one, it's probably not possible without some serious beefing up. Also it first flew in the 30s, they'd sorted out synchronising guns with the prop early in WW1.
ok, someone told me porkies, but the looping part was still fun
None of the De Havilland Moth biplanes (Puss, Gypsy and Tiger) were designed to have an operating machine gun fitted, they were mostly used for training military and civilian pilots. Lots of Tiger Moths still flying, all over eighty years old now, IIRC.
Wouldn’t be any confusion over if you got a bird strike either. On account of you wearing it...
Changed my mind. These are going for a bargain price, just need a time machine,
Look carefully for the bonus plane on the wharf.