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... do you think the result would be any different?
Given that it has not been confirmed that there's loads of oil left, businesses are leaving Scotland anyway, and that there's no extra powers going anywhere soon.
I've been missing the political threads so humour me. 😀
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You can go burl for a kick off.
If there was I'd ****ing shoot myself.
[quote=anagallis_arvensis ]If there was I'd **** shoot myself.
If you don't have a vote, that hardly affects the result...
do you think the result would be any different?
No I still wouldn't be arsed.
There is no way Westminster will allow Scotland another referendum. The SNP will have to stand for Holyrood on the platform that a majority for them is an automatic endorsement of a Universal Declaration of Independence.
And then it will get really meesy.
I'd still vote yes.
I would lose again, so many things and in so many ways.
It would still be a no vote and I doubt anyone has changed opinions
humour me
Two nuns in a bath..
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It would be even more No. The wave of enthusiasm/ hysteria is already dying off.
It would be fixed, just like the last one.
It would be fixed, just like the last one.
Bears repeating.
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Wasn't expecting it to be that easy
The people that are saying it was fixed are clearly muppets. There does however appear to be a bit of potential for a tory politician to spend a bit of time in the clink, so it's not all bad.
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It would still be a no vote and I doubt anyone has changed opinions
Actually, I think I might have... Changed my opinion I mean.
Hardly an avalanche though.
It would still be a no vote and I doubt anyone has changed opinions
nobody? I'm sure some have. Some were certainly swayed by the "vow" and GB's intervention. Some of those are definitely a bit pee'd off at lack of clarity/progress. Is there the 1:10 no voters needed to swing it, or to motivate a third of those who didn't bother to vote? Almost certainly not. Could there be by May? Its possible. Could the composition of any coalition swing it? yes. Could a UK EU referendum swing it? certainly - even if the UK stay in, the debate surrounding it will frustrate a lot of Scots.
It seems to be quite difficult for people campaigning for self determination to accept an act of self determination 🙂
Course it'd still be a No. Westminster hasn't had time to completely break The Vow yet, give it time 😉
I personally think that you have to admire the bare faced effrontery of the utter **** who seems to have turned the Scottish referendum vote into a mandate to gerrymander the electoral system to give himself a permenent majority, and also abolish human rights legislation.
Or you could see that 45% of the population of Scotland were right in identifying them as a shameless bunch of shysters that would make anyone condemn the Westminster system for the fraud that it is
Hey ho....
Or you could see that 45% of the population of Scotland
45% or people who voted, not 45% of the population. People may have not voted for lots of reasons, but not because they are keen yes supporters.
44.7% of 84.59% is [i]37.81%[/i]
You're not. We'll never know. Ho hum. Next.
The people of Scotland voted No to independence. For the moment. What's going to be interesting is what will happen in the next general election and Scottish election, and whether anything at all will come out of the Smith commission.
Surveys show that the people of Scotland decisively want independence [u]as long as you don't call it independence[/u] - if decisive more powers, something like the federal system or home rule that was promised in the closing days of the campaign, don't materialise then there will be a lot of No voters feeling that they've been taken for fools.
wanmankylung - Member... do you think the result would be any different?
Well presumably according to you yes, as there are now less Yes supporters in Scotland .
All part of a "brain drain" apparently.
wanmankylung - MemberI wonder if the impending brain drain from Scotland was considered as a potential outcome of a No vote. It may well just be my extended circle of acquaintances, but there are a lot of highly qualified people making firm plans to leave Scotland forever.
Posted 1 week ago
wanmankylung - MemberThat's the plan. Professional registration has been obtained, visa has been applied for and job is just about sealed. Melbourne is my destination - have more family there than what I have here. Will be getting paid around 150% more for doing the same job. Living costs will be comparable.
Posted 1 week ago
wanmankylung - MemberOne thing that has amazed me about people packing up and shipping out of Scotland is the speed at which they have started going. The first people I know of left permanently today - 7 of them.
Posted 1 week ago
Have you arrived in Melbourne yet btw ?
Don't worry Ernie, I left a note at the airport warning about some anti establishment revolutionaries from IS coming over. They should be picking him up soon....
if decisive more powers, something like the federal system or home rule that was promised in the closing days of the campaign, don't materialise then there will be a lot of No voters feeling that they've been taken for fools.
It's also worth noting that any of those powers impact the entire UK and need to be agreed by the entire UK.
binners - Member
I personally think that you have to admire the bare faced effrontery of the utter **** who seems to have turned the Scottish referendum vote into a mandate to gerrymander the electoral system to give himself a permenent majority, and also abolish human rights legislation.
It always comes back to a left right thing doesn't it, ironically the one campaigning for this outcome the hardest was AS.
I personally think that you have to admire the bare faced effrontery of the utter **** who seems to have turned the Scottish referendum vote into a mandate to gerrymander the electoral system to give himself a permenent majority
You're referring to plans to provide Tam with an answer? Presumably you think Scottish MPs should continue to vote on matters which don't affect their constituents?
Oh and I CBA to search myself, but if you check back through my posts on the great Scottish Indy thread you'll find details on how often Scottish MPs were needed for Labour to get a majority - it wasn't very many.
warning about some anti establishment revolutionaries from IS coming over.
You mean [i]former[/i] anti establishment revolutionaries :
Apparently they "no longer give a shit about Scotland" and "hope the Tories ruin Scotland".
In which case the boss has a message
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[url= http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/08/18/you-dont-migrate-to-this-country-unless-you-want-to-join-our-team/ ]‘You Don’t Migrate To This Country Unless You Want To Join Our Team’[/url]
Well this came back up quicker than I expected. I think the result would still be a no though by a slightly smaller margin as disaffected no voters turn to yes. I view the prospect of Cameron abandoning the Human Rights Act and removing the Uk except for Scotland from the jurisdiction of the ECHR with a little sang froid.
Pointless discussing it, democracy wins, no more independence referendums for a generation - obviously with the diet of deep fried mars bars n irn bru n haggis, the length of a generation in scotchland is that much shorter than elsewhere but still should mean the blue face paint can be put away for 20 yrs or so.
Still no sign of the yes vandals clearing up their mess of stickers tainting every ****ing road sign.
Are you that convinced that the last week of panic from Cameron et al really swung it ? I thought they were counter productive and left quietly to get on with more people in Scotland would have voted No.
The 55/45 was pretty predictable.
If the Yes campaign learn from their mistakes and target marginal areas rather than wasting their time door-knocking in Edinburgh and The Borders, they may have more success.
I think it still may happen in our lifetimes - I was always a No, but also a bit of a Not Yet, this is not a good time to spend all that money we don't have on a referendum, let alone the costs of setting up all the new agencies. Lets get some more powers from Westminster, slow change that won't scare the horses, and reassess in another ten years.
Much better to spend all that money we don't have on killing some random dudes in a HiLux in Iraq? Even conservative estimates of the cost of the Iraq air strikes put the cost higher than the estimates of the cost of setting up an independent Scotland.
Decisive No last time and it would be the same again now or indeed in the coming few years (not that there will be another referendum in a generation, eg 10+ years that's why Salmond has stood down).
By the way a number of North Sea oil companies announced layoffs and potential business sale, they had quite a pessimistic view of the sector and one major US company is determined to focus on shale gas.
OP will you be letting us know where the leader of the next NO campaign is born?
they had quite a pessimistic view of the sector and one major US company is determined to focus on shale gas.
I know what company you are talking about. The news has it wrong. It's all based on a speculative article. Not so say that there won't be changes, there will, but it's not what has been reported in the press over the last few days.
Are we having a referendum on bombing Iraq ? That would give all the newly fired up political activist kiddies something to do.
Also, I have a question too: Why was the Yes side so associated with the Left ? I never got that - "we have enough for ourselves and will be better off and don't want to share with the rest of UK - bumholes to you all" how is that not a Righty proposition ?
Somebody passed me a link last week about a website called "All Of Us First", which is hoping to continue the Yes momentum. I queried how we can all be first, but it seems it is about all of us being equal. Or rather, all of those who are Scots, being equal. Again scary right wing nationalism being linked in an odd way to being a socialist proposition. All very worrying.
hels - Member
Are you that convinced that the last week of panic from Cameron et al really swung it ? I thought they were counter productive and left quietly to get on with more people in Scotland would have voted No.The 55/45 was pretty predictable.
If the Yes campaign learn from their mistakes ...
Well I know quite a few people who claimed to be "don't know" before the Vow, Cameron's speech in Aberdeen and Brown's speech the day before. I think they all voted NO in the end. Of course they may well have still voted no, even without that intervention. I don't know anyone who was don't know and pushed in the opposite direction by their involvement - only Yes voters who become more resolute as a result. Even some quite clear No voters have said to me they would change their view if the promises are not kept - although I'm not sure they (or indeed anyone else!) really knows what the promises were.
Actually, potentially the biggest change since the 18th is Mr Salmond's departure. Inevitably some people couldn't get over their dislike of the man to vote yes. (Likewise I'm sure that some Yes voters would be converted if the PM was to resign). Its not clear if the replacement will prove to be more popular in the short or long term. A clearer currency plan wouldn't have gone a miss either - if only because it gave Better together something to aim for.
Whilst I think the whole country is kind of glad for a respite from the bickering and political posturing, there's no doubt that the people of Scotland are expecting major change in one form or another. 12 months on if people don't notice any change there will be resentment - which could swing it, but I don't believe there will be another referendum until at least the Scottish parliament after next. Nobody in Scotland would accept independence without a referendum. A generation will not be necessary if the general opinion is much clearer in favour of independence.
I voted yes, and I can categorically say.......shut up!!!!
That referendum was an embarrassment to Scotland and the only good that came from it was the voter turnout. The decision was made, Scotland had its chance and as I said from the beginning, the country now has to live with the consequences whatever they might have been
At least we got to parade our bigoted and small minded in George Square the next night
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Somebody passed me a link last week about a website called "All Of Us First", which is hoping to continue the Yes momentum. I queried how we can all be first, but it seems it is about all of us being equal. Or rather, all of those who are Scots, being equal.
Four legs good, two legs [s]bad[/s] better
With Nicola heading towards the helm of the SNP I'm confident that 'No' would walk it.
hels - MemberSomebody passed me a link last week about a website called "All Of Us First", which is hoping to continue the Yes momentum. I queried how we can all be first, but it seems it is about all of us being equal. Or rather, all of those who are Scots, being equal. Again scary right wing nationalism being linked in an odd way to being a socialist proposition. All very worrying.
"all of us first" is a common weal thing, don't think many people would agree that's scary right wing nationalism?
The ideas are there are equally applicable to England and anywhere else. If you want that kinda thing, you are going to have to support parties/groups that uphold these policies. Voting tory/labour ain't gonny cut it.hels - Member
Somebody passed me a link last week about a website called "All Of Us First", which is hoping to continue the Yes momentum. I queried how we can all be first, but it seems it is about all of us being equal. Or rather, all of those who are Scots, being equal. Again scary right wing nationalism being linked in an odd way to being a socialist proposition. All very worrying.
Scotland cannot bestow these things upon England.
Anyhow regardless I'm with northwind in that it'd be a no, but give them time to make the vow impotent and we'll see what happens.
but it's too early for another vote. Personally I think we should take the British governments guidelines as to when a referendum should be held again(specifically in relation to constitutional questions), no less than 7 years.
In the meantime there's plenty work to be done. I'm not of the opinion that the vote was lost because of big bad westminster or the nasty media, just that scotland wasn't quite ready for it. So like I say plenty of work to be done.
With Nicola heading towards the helm of the SNP I'm confident that 'No' would walk it.
Funny thing is, she's even more popular than Alex Salmond, with a trust rating of +21 against Salmond's +18.
By comparison, Miliband is on -38, Cameron is on -41 and Clegg is on -58.
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Well I am out of "All Of Us First" on grammatical grounds. If they can't even come up with a tagline that makes sense, what hope do we hold for any of their policies ?
dunno, if you won't read them, there's no point in talking about it with you.hels - Member
Well I am out of "All Of Us First" on grammatical grounds. If they can't even come up with a tagline that makes sense, what hope do we hold for any of their policies ?
If the Yes campaign learn from their mistakes and target marginal areas rather than wasting their time door-knocking in Edinburgh and The Borders, they may have more success.
Maybe/maybe not, it was a national vote so there weren't marginal constituencies, an extra vote in one area was worth the same as another. All you'd gain would be not knocking on so many 'yes' doors.
Well I know quite a few people who claimed to be "don't know" before the Vow, Cameron's speech in Aberdeen and Brown's speech the day before. I think they all voted NO in the end.
A combination of Denisons rule and 'NO' being the neutral option I think. If you asked the question "are you in favour of Scotish independance", there's 2 answers (or a scale of infinate answers), "yes", "no" and "don't have an oppinion/know". The debate is such that those that "don't know", will vote no because they don't want scotish independance.
If you had a poll that asked "do you want to be rulled by westminster", I bet the split is the other way arround. Which is why the offer of furhter devolution worked, as it gave the "don't knows" what they wanted, where the Yes and No campaigns shouted relatively extreme viewpoints at them which they couldn't identify with.
Same reason the Labour and Tories are very closely aligned slightly to the right (ditto Democrats and Republicans in the USA), you don't win elections appealing to extremist minorities, you sacrifice your principals just enough to win over the deciding vote in the middle.
Much better to spend all that money we don't have on killing some random dudes in a HiLux in Iraq?
That's extremely disingenous. If you are doing it deliberately then shame on you for using language to try to load the issues so blatantly. If you are not, then you really need to think about what you're saying.
They are not 'random dudes'.
Which is why the offer of furhter devolution worked, as it gave the "don't knows" what they wanted
It only works in the long run if that further devolution actually happens. Otherwise it just makes people regret believing the No campaign and consider voting differently next time.
the Labour and Tories are very closely aligned slightly to the right
"slightly" ?!
Compared to most of the world, yes (almost the whole world leans right, we're slightly less right than average."slightly" ?!
[edit] here it is pictoraly, Ed/Dave and Barack/Mitt both show what I was saying nicely, thy align themselves just to the correct side of the country's political center because anyone else you can already bank on their vote because you still appear 'not quite as far away as the other party'.
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They are not 'random dudes'.
What is the point of killing them? Even if they are "bad guys" (assuming we trust the intelligence we're getting, assuming the weapon hits the right people, assuming no collateral damage) then what is killing them going to achieve?
Bombing from the air has never worked. It didn't work in Vietnam, it didn't work the last few times we tried it in Iraq, it hasn't worked in Libya, it didn't work against the Germans in WWII.
we are slightly less right than america
I do not think we are slightly less than the european average
I also disagree that the whole world is right wing
Are you that convinced that the last week of panic from Cameron et al really swung it ? I thought they were counter productive and left quietly to get on with more people in Scotland would have voted No.
The involvement of Cameron on the closing stages of the campaign wasn't becuase he was worried there would be a Yes vote - it was never 'neck and neck', it was never 'going to go either way' the result was exactly what the polls had been predicting for months and years, and frankly for ever. There has never been a popular mandate for independence and that wasn't going to change suddenly. New powers weren't going to swing the vote as they'd never been on the table at any time during the campaign and they were never part of no-voters conditions for voting no. Whether the new powers ever get delivered in sort of immaterial as scotland doesn't use much of the [i]real[/i] devolved power it already has - when has the Scottish Variable Rate Mechanism ever been even mentioned for instance (other than the hefty 3 paragraphs it gets on Wikipedia).
In the early stages of the referendum campaigns he pointedly took a step back on the basis that independence wasn't a decision between Scotland and Westminster it was a decision to be made in Scotland. His involvement in the closing stages of the campaign were simply because there was [i]obviously[/i] going to be a No vote and by being involved he could be seen to be part of the winning side. He was there as part of his revvying up for the Westminster elections and having in mind that he's been leading a minority government in a party that has been further behind in the polls than the Yes campaign for all of its term he needs to be in the reflected light of any win he can.
Depends:I also disagree that the whole world is right wing
a) whether you do it on a country or population basis (otherwise China and india skew things)
b) how do you treat 'comunist' China.
But yes, in general, there are far more slightly right wing democracies than there are left.
here it is pictoraly, Ed/Dave and Barack/Mitt both show what I was saying nicely
So Romney is more of a Talisker while Milliband is more of a Craggenmore
What would surprise many people is, if you include historical leaders, Hitler is more of an Ardbeg when you'd expect him to be a full on Lagavulin
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The polls clearly showed momentum for the yes vote over the 2 year campaign.maccruiskeen - Member
to say there wasn't panic in the last 2 weeks and that it was planned is revisionist tbh.
That is what I am saying thisisnotaspoon - don't waste time in areas where there are so many No voters, try and target the undecideds. There were campaigners on Peebles high street every weekend for months before, and although I admire their dedication, they should have driven a bit further...
No Panic ? You could smell the fear from the moon.
There would be no change to the result. It was 55% for no a year ago and it was 55% on referendum night.
The yes campaign constantly told us differently, that the polls were closing. They were proved wrong, Scotland doesnt want independence from the UK, and that won't change for generations. Yes had their shot and for the good of the country they should move on.
We have moved on, we've moved on to more powers.tpbiker - Member
There would be no change to the result. It was 55% for no a year ago and it was 55% on referendum night.The yes campaign constantly told us differently, that the polls were closing. They were proved wrong, Scotland doesnt want independence from the UK, and that won't change for generations. Yes had their shot and for the good of the country they should move on.
The polls show massive support for maximum powers to be transfered to holyrood.
Neverendum referendum
Much better to spend all that money we don't have on killing some random dudes in a HiLux in Iraq? Even conservative estimates of the cost of the Iraq air strikes put the cost higher than the estimates of the cost of setting up an independent Scotland.
Really? A few bombs and some fuel cost more than setting up an independent country of 5m-odd people? I smell bullshit.
Oh **** me
Don't start it again, I was just getting used to the present levels of groups of people who agree with each other ignoring everyone else discussing stuff in the background on ****ter. Don't start reigniting it again, at least until the next election.
Piemonster, agreed.
I see that Nicola Sturgeon has played a blinder at winding folk up today. Suggesting that we bring in legislation to effectively give each of the constituent nations of the UK the veto over a UK EU referendum. Well played.
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Result would still be the same.
Though I believe that Cameron actually wants independence for scotland, the referendum being a test to understand what makes the no voters 'tick'. It sounds preposterous but I guess the folks in London are sensing that the city is at bursting point and that to make Britain competitive again involves a fairly pronounced programme of decentralisation so as to take a lot of the heat from the 'south' .
Personally I was surprised at the lack of confidence from the no side as regards Scotland's ability to govern itself, given the not insubstantial amount of civil servants that were relocated to Edinburgh.
Equally I am surprised by the lack of post referendum analysis by the mainstream media. The result was a fairly stark split within scotland, possibly class politics to the fore in a way, unprecedented in electoral history...a real split between those who possibly believed that they had nothing to lose and a proportion of the no camp, prepared to say 'drop dead'.
If there had been a vote on whether the uk opts out of eu membership, the media would be discussing the result for months.
My main beef with the no camp was a lack of foresight as regards the brain drain. It's not just the oil that generates the wealth , but the surplus value created by the labour force. The fewer that up sticks and leaves, the less the country turns into a glorified suburb of London.
Back to Cameron, as much as people dislike him, to me he seems to be quite the contingency planner, eec wranglings aside. I'm Guessing that he expects the results of global warming to be not so much monsoon conditions in the uk but a cessation of the Gulf Stream, leaving scotland frozen. So as long as we're still part of the uk, we get to share that lovely shale gas.
scotland frozen
I bloody hope so, I'm looking at winter tyres this morning.
I'll be right ****** off if it's mild this winter. And I've new skis to use.
Bencooper have a rethink. Really, try its important this time. Its not Saddam. Its very nasty people and potentially regional. Why do you think Iran are concerned?
If you were a yes voter- carry on though. The majority of Scots voted NO. so why are you even thinking what you posted?