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mikewsmith
And we can make an assessment of it, I’d say it’s paper thin
Yes, I see it all clearly now.
The thickness, softness and width of your rebuttal is like 21st century toilet paper.
Your counterargument has defeated me with its clarity and paper based references.
I bow to your superior skills.
I'm assuming all this of course, as you made no actual argument of any kind. But I'm sure your certainty that such an argument exists is all the proof I need to change my mind.
Thanks for your input I guess. 🙂
I have massive respect for those that work in the Prison Service.
A thankless task, I can not think of one that’s pretty much in the same league.
I get the impression that interacting with inmates, some of whom want to inflict violent harm against you just for wearing a uniform and walking upright.
How you control yourself in a situation like that, every bloody day, is frankly astonishing.
Whilst your moral compass may be for the social good, counter that with sometimes you must wish both physical harm and castration be bestowed upon some inmates.
Tough Job Man.
I’m assuming all this of course, as you made no actual argument of any kind. But I’m sure your certainty that such an argument exists is all the proof I need to change my mind.
I've made a number of points about the evidence, effectiveness and more throughout this thread, you are welcome to read them. However it's in the bible is a great and obvious moral argument.
he’d been a bastard to his wife/partner & kids so social services had taken away his access rights. He was of course, annoyed by this & said he was going to kill himself.
let him, I say. His choice, doesn't sound mentally unstable. Waste of resources checking on him...
Not a philosopher, but from my simplistic point of view, its the golden rule. The (historically late) christian version being “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”
So if I murdered a child, what do I think would be a fitting punishment for me?
Are you suggesting that this supersedes "Thou shalt not kill?". If so, that would be a spectacular bit of cherry picking.
@nickc has it, and really that should be an end of the discussion. If it's wrong to kill, it's wrong to kill, and killing people to show them how wrong it is makes absolutely no sense.
I think we should put it to a referendum. That seemed to go well last time. The death sentence is one of the strongest arguments for constitutional democracy. Just wish they’d have stuck to that last time, rather than expect MP’s to vote overwhelmingly against their consciences.
And for the record, I’d do everything I could to oppose it. Of course the notion that we would execute innocents would be just cast aside as “project fear”.
Assuming that the execution of innocent citizens is itself murder, who would we execute for their deaths? The executioner, the judiciary, the MPs who supported the legislation or the folk that voted for it in a referendum?
Mikewsnith
You've made many points (pretty much all of which I would agree with) but none about the morality of the death penalty.
I'm not arguing for it being useful, advisable, effective, a deterrent to others. I'm just saying it can be justified morally.
That idea (the golden rule) is not based on the bible (which I would consider a poor and self contradictory resource for any point of view, except obviously when it comes to banning the eating of shellfish). Thats just (probably) the most familiar example for people in 21C UK. See wikipedia.
It might not be a moral argument that you like or respect, but it is a moral argument that exists.
Unlike yours.
onewheelgood
Are you suggesting that this supersedes “Thou shalt not kill?”. If so, that would be a spectacular bit of cherry picking.
I'm not defending the bible and its innocent slaughtering and virgin raping propensities in any way shape or form, but in this case that particular bit translates better as "Thou shalt not murder" (which is different from "killing").
It would be a hard argument for Jeebus himself to make that it literally meant "Thou shalt not kill" bearing in mind what the israelites did to the people who inhabited the promised land shortly (ish) after reading it for the first time (see reference above to slaughter and rape of virgins).
2-3000 years ago which is why we shouldn’t really be basing modern laws o
Plus quite a few of the ancient laws were fairly flexible. If you coughed up some cash most of the time that was enough. Or if the criminal wasnt available then punishing one of their families was fine.
Interesting link here http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-death-penalty-moral
Interesting in that the voting is 51%/49% - spookily close to a certain referendum in UK.
The vast majority of those countries that still have the death penalty are backward holes ruled by fascists and inbreds, why would we want to associate with them?
Oh...
I have massive respect for those that work in the Prison Service.
A thankless task, I can not think of one that’s pretty much in the same league.
I get the impression that interacting with inmates, some of whom want to inflict violent harm against you just for wearing a uniform and walking upright.
Yeah but member when the papers told us they are holiday camps! Job must be a doddle as all the inmates have Playstations to keep them quiet, don't they?
Would love to see Dacre and his mates swapping Tuscany for Wormwood Scrubs. Wonder if they would still call it a holiday camp after getting a real taste. What about the food review, the slop du jour was enhanced by a flem jus dispensed by a laughing inmate.
However it’s in the bible is a great and obvious moral argument.
Is it?
Just seen this post shared on facebook :
Update it is great sadness that my auntie who was attacked on Saturday has now died. Thank you for all the support from everyone.
URGENT APPEALDid anyone see <span class="text_exposed_show">a young male acting suspiciously in a white car last night in or near LOOP ROAD OLD WOKING at around 6PM. We don't have anymore description at this time. He went to my aunties house who's in her late 80s asking for a drink of water then attacked her taking her hand bag. She was rushed to A&E with a lot of facial damage. I know it's a long shot. Any info phone the police</span>
There's one death sentence I would sanction...
@Bikebouy. It IS a tough job pal, mentally draining & physically demanding. I'm fortunately now out of it but I'd rather be still in it if it could change my wife's circumstances. (bowel cancer episode) Hey Ho.
Anyway.....
Yeah but member when the papers told us they are holiday camps! Job must be a doddle as all the inmates have Playstations to keep them quiet, don’t they?
Would love to see Dacre and his mates swapping Tuscany for Wormwood Scrubs. Wonder if they would still call it a holiday camp after getting a real taste. What about the food review, the slop du jour was enhanced by a flem jus dispensed by a laughing inmate.
Only prisoners on 'enhanced incentive earned privelages' can have Playstations, & only PS 2's cos 3's have a USB port.
Gobbing in food does happen very very occasionally but is punishable by letting other cons know who did it. It's called 'self policing'.
Again, back to the death penalty....
@ esselgruntfuttock - Pffftt, details ain't nobody got time for that 😉
@Chester, yep I know, people only want facts, not the truth.
So, I'm still a 'yes' voter on the death penalty.
People want binary answers and single sentence explanations. **** the truth.
Its really simple
In society we have set of rules which are there to keep us safe.
To particiapte in this society members must abide by those rules.
If I choose to ignore societies rules then I forfiet my right to live in that society.
So capital punishment does have a place where guilt can not be in doubt.
ON th flip side it costs £45K per year to keep people locked up - so cages are a great idea.
Prison is not a deterrent - its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.
Prison is not a deterrent – its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.
Not much is a deterrent, though I'd question why you want to bring Islamist and terror into this - got some facts to back that up?
Perhaps you might be coming around to working out that we need to look hard at the causes of crime and the ways we rehabilitate and help people lead a more productive life once they have gone wrong
ON th flip side it costs £45K per year to keep people locked up – so cages are a great idea.
Prison is not a deterrent – its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.
Maybe we should make them take out a student loan to pay for it.
Turnerguy. Are you advocating the death penalty based on a couple of sentences on Facebook by the relative of a deceased victim. This is an appeal for witnesses, no suspect in custody as of yet, no real FACTS of the crime, and no trial??!! Any sensible person would need to have a lot more information at their disposal to make any reasoned judgement.
Oh well, when the death sentence is back, there'll be no trial by jury. Social media has it covered.
Wrong thread
They're not going to be hung are they?
Gah, it's gone.
I've just caught up with this thread, and I'd like to respond to a comment from a couple of pages back.
[quote=mattsccm]
Woohoo. Usual crap spouted. Notice how many of those who feel that they have the kind, considerate liberal attitude are the ones being nasty?
Calling people idiots, suggesting that a democratic vote would be wrong etc.
This surprised me a little, so I checked back. Precisely one person has used the word "idiot" in the entire thread (other than matt just there). That was me, and I was referring to society as a whole (and I was not being nasty, it's true - society demonstrably has a fair share of idiots).
A people's vote would be wrong because, as per the above, there are too many idiots. And in any case, it's not the public's decision to make, as I said before. An actual democratic vote - ie, by MPs in parliament, as opposed to the brexit "democracy" of mob rule - would be an entirely different argument. Not immediately seeing how this is being "nasty" either.
As you were, carry on.
Only prisoners on ‘enhanced incentive earned privelages’ can have Playstations, & only PS 2’s cos 3’s have a USB port.
What's the issue with having a USB port, out of interest? People smuggling in pendrives for, what, secret messages? Grot?
This is an appeal for witnesses, no suspect in custody as of yet, no real FACTS of the crime, and no trial??!!
no facts of the crime, so you are suggesting that this elderly lady attacked the young man and got the facial injuries out of self-defence?
but if it was shown that the young man callously beat the old lady, then I fail to see what justification there is for keeping someone with that mentality around.
, then I fail to see what justification there is for keeping someone with that mentality around.
You have an opinion. Good for you.What is his mentality?
What does killing him do?
"where guilt can not be in doubt."
so we are back to Derek Bentley then
I'm 100% against the death penalty. Seems completely obvious to me that if killing is wrong then killing the perpetrator is equally wrong. What would be next, raping rapists FFS?
You jest, but I don't doubt that many people would agree with that too.
I know they would it's horribly depressing. We don't kill people at our mercy because otherwise we're as bad as them, no matter how humane or what we choose to call it. The rape thing is a useful counter. Many people seem perfectly happy (they say) to pull a trigger, throw a lever, flick a switch but far fewer would be able to gain an erection and rape an inmate in the name of "justice" and in my mind it's exactly the same principle. Although quite a few seem happy to sentence rapists to death too, in fact it's quite surprising how many crimes some people feel should be punishable by death.
in fact it’s quite surprising how many crimes some people feel should be punishable by death.
Disagreeing with brexit seems to be a common one at the moment.
no facts of the crime, so you are suggesting that this elderly lady attacked the young man and got the facial injuries out of self-defence?
but if it was shown that the young man callously beat the old lady, then I fail to see what justification there is for keeping someone with that mentality around.
Turnerguy. There are endless possibilities. The elderly lady may have died from something unrelated to the incident. Have you thought of that? She could have had terminal cancer for all you know. Based on the description, the assailant could be a juvenile. This is huge in my book. Would you put a 15 year old to death? The assailant may have snatched a bag and the lady fallen against a table. The assailant may have a serious mental health issue. I am glad you are not on a death row jury. I bet games of Cluedo are a barrel of laughs in your house.
There are endless possibilities.
However it would make trails a lot simpler if we just shot them at the start.
Its really simple
I agree, it is! Please go on....
In society we have set of rules which are there to keep us safe.
Yes, with you so far
To particiapte in this society members must abide by those rules.
If I choose to ignore societies rules then I forfiet my right to live in that society.
Still with you....
So capital punishment does have a place where guilt can not be in doubt.
What? How did you suddenly jump to that? Locking somebody in prison achieves exactly the same thing, without the downsides to executing people.
Prison is not a deterrent - its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.
whut?
Prison is not a deterrent
Perhaps not, but then capital punishment doesn't appear to be a deterrent either judging by lots of data from the US.
Admittedly the re-offending rate is pretty low, however successful appeals in the event of a wrongful verdict are quite tricky too.
its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.
I've been to that one, although they just called it "The University of Paisley" when I was there.
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">we need to look hard at the causes of crime and the ways we rehabilitate and help people lead a more productive life once they have gone wrong</span>
That sounds far too difficult. Easier just to write them off forever or apparently just murder them so we don't even have to give it any thought.
The rape thing is a useful counter. Many people seem perfectly happy (they say) to pull a trigger, throw a lever, flick a switch but far fewer would be able to gain an erection and rape an inmate in the name of “justice” and in my mind it’s exactly the same
So by your peculiar logic what punishment would I be given if I abducted somebody and kept them locked in a cage for a year ?
[quote="Ramsey Neil"]So by your peculiar logic what punishment would I be given if I abducted somebody and kept them locked in a cage for a year ?
Presidency?
What’s the issue with having a USB port, out of interest?
Cos cons aren't allowed access to any type of digital storage, like memory sticks & stuff.
I think I did query it at some point but IIR all I got from security was, 'theyr'e just not'.
There will be a valid & explainable reason. Maybe someone on here would know better than an HMPS security dept!
Cheers.
TBF, it's probably best to come at it from the position of "reasons why they can" rather than "reasons why they can't." Even if you can't justify a specific issue, that doesn't mean there isn't a loophole they could exploit.
Cons are very (what's the word?) 'adaptive/cunning/studious'? & can always find a use for anything theyr'e allowed to have. Usually breaking prison rules in the process.
I think I did query it at some point but IIR all I got from security was, ‘theyr’e just not’.
It will be to do with blocking transfer of info in and out of choky. We have similar restrictions in the financial sector, probably to get the traders ready for conditions inside.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-44861508
I take it all back. Bring back the death penalty. Hangings too good for him I tells ya.
^ Why not make him wear a horned helmet, kick his arse and set him running up the high street. Then charge a load of drunken Brits and Aussies to run in front of him before trapping him in a stadium and sticking blades in his shoulders?
You are part timer Malvern. You are suggesting that AFTER the guilty verdict. That should really have been suggested at the first whiff of suspicion.
See, your 'basic' murderer like him doesn't really warrant the death sentence (IMO)
The fact that he's a politician (of any party AFAIC)...well that's a different matter.
Multiple murderers, rapists, paedo's etc, get rid.
Man throws baby out of window after trying to gouge out it's eyes and trying to strangle it.
Bring it back for these types.
No
Hang the nonces. Or anyone that ****s about with kids.....
And the serial killers.
And ebikers.
1: it is self-evidently stupid to suggest that the crime of murder can be punished by the re-performance of same.
2: prison is partly for the sequestration of those who are a danger to society, having shown themselves to be.
3: I offer the treatment, subsequent to his crime, of Anders Breivik by the Norwegian authorities, as evidence of an enlightened society.
1: it is self-evidently stupid to suggest that the crime of murder can be punished by the re-performance of same.
Thing is woppit, that some people are suggesting the death penalty for cases which are not murder. The example above by Phil is of a baby that survived. The perpetrator was convicted of attempted murder, ABH and common assault and received a life sentence.
The other one I have seen with a clamour for the death penalty was of the person convicted of manslaughter relating to the first acid attack case.
100% yes. It woukd need to be proved beyond doubt though.
100% yes. It woukd need to be proved beyond doubt though.
What level of doubt? Reasonable doubt? Unequivocal doubt? Might be hard to get a conviction with a higher degree of certainty required.
Bring it back for people who spit chewing gum on to the ground and/or flick their cigarette butts on to the ground.
I would be for it. But it would never be implemented properly, the bill would never get wrote up correctly or at all. The loop holes upon loop holes and court in's and out's would just not make it work at all. Our government is to incompetent to organise something on this scale. Give it maybe 50 years or so when we go to dystopian levels and we will be picking each other off anyway.
If we had the death penalty the Birmingham six who are innocent would be dead
How many innocent people hung is acceptable?
What level of doubt? Reasonable doubt? Unequivocal doubt? Might be hard to get a conviction with a higher degree of certainty required.
You mean like if they have video evidence of the killing or if the body is found in the back of the car kind?
and we are off again!! Same arguments, same reasons and same conclusions...
except the pope has joined in now
<div class="bbp-reply-author">xcracer1
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<div class="">Member</div>
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">100% yes. It woukd need to be proved beyond doubt though.
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You mean like the Birmingham six? Proved beyond reasonable doubt. Now we know they were innocent.
Read up on other cases like stephen downing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Downing_case
Or do you want a new category. We have "beyond reasonable doubt"! for criminal cases. How do you go beyond this? "Beyond any doubt at all"? Would you accept your son being wrongly hung for a crime they didn't commit?
You do realise that " beyond any doubt at all" would mean zero convictions?
You mean like if they have video evidence of the killing or if the body is found in the back of the car kind?
Or someone caught in the act of chopping someone up, alive? Like Michael Adebolajo for instance?
So what posters are saying is that two people could be convicted of the same crime, but receive different sentences based on whether they were caught in the act or not?
A body in a car boot is not a guarantee that a murder has been committed.
A body in a car boot is not a guarantee that a murder has been committed.
I couldn't agree more. Bodies are always turning up in car boots without any murder (or any crime at all) being committed.
How about Adebolajo? Any doubt it wasn't him & his accomplice that hacked an off duty soldier to death, in broad daylight?
Next, someone will say he (Adebolajo) had/has mental health problems.
How about Adebolajo? Any doubt it wasn’t him & his accomplice that hacked an off duty soldier to death, in broad daylight?
Right, it's quite ****ing simple. No means no, no matter how many carrots you dangle in front of people you want to have killed no still means no.
Right, it’s quite **** simple. No means no, no matter how many carrots you dangle in front of people you want to have killed no still means no.
HaHa. Whatever, for now. I'd pull the trigger on that worthless piece of crap myself.
I couldn’t agree more. Bodies are always turning up in car boots without any murder (or any crime at all) being committed.
I never said no crime had been committed. I said it did not necessarily indicate a murder. It may be hard to grasp, but people do receive manslaughter convictions on grounds of diminished responsibility for a range of reasons.
On Adebolajo, no I don't doubt he did it, but it still won't make me wish for a death penalty. He received a whole life sentence if I am right. I am curious to know why you don't mention his partner in crime Adebowale and whether he should also receive a death sentence.
HaHa. Whatever, for now. I’d pull the trigger on that worthless piece of crap myself.
You could also pull the trigger on David Norris and Gary Dobson as well if you like.
Yawn.
It's either revenge or cost saving..... neither are a good reason for killing somebody, unless you're morally bankrupt.
Aha, so what about somebody that killed somebody for revenge?
Drunk driver runs over a toddler. No doubt who did it, driver arrested at the scene, admits it. Father of the toddler shoots him outside the court, caught on camera.
So, do you sentence the father to death? I mean, there is no doubt he did it. Or do you pardon him, on the basis that the state now condones the taking of a life for the purposes of revenge?
All odf you that are in favour of the death penalty what are you going to do about wrongful convictions>
Birmigham six, guilford 4, Stephen Downing?
Is it acceptable that these innocent men would be dead?
How about if your son was wrongfully convicted and hung? Is that acceptable?
Drunk driver runs over a toddler. No doubt who did it, driver arrested at the scene, admits it. Father of the toddler shoots him outside the court, caught on camera.
So, do you sentence the father to death? I mean, there is no doubt he did it. Or do you pardon him, on the basis that the state now condones the taking of a life for the purposes of revenge?
People's blood lust gets up when the case is put in such emotive terms. What if someone was convicted of exactly the same crime but the drunk driver was a well to do 17 year old first year medical student, who was over the limit the next day after a reunion with old friends the night before, and the victim was a 17 year old homeless runaway with a history of drug abuse, self harm and mental health issues.
I bet the Daily Mail brigade would be less likely to push for a death penalty then. It was probably best for the victim.
Bring it back for people who spit chewing gum on to the ground and/or flick their cigarette butts on to the ground.
Bit harsh. Definitely public flogging though.
HaHa. Whatever, for now. I’d pull the trigger on that worthless piece of crap myself.
Off you pop then. What's the worst that could happen? You won't be hung for it.
Drunk driver runs over a toddler....... etc.
Does France still have "crime of passion"?
What about the UKIP councillor who killed his wife when she found out he’d had an affair with his sons girlfriend?
He also had a pint with Flaparge during the Brexit propaganda trail.
Can we kill the jurers, judge and police if they convict someone who was not guilty to death?
Even if we could prove the impossible, beyond any doubt, that someone was guilty, it is still barbaric. We have to show those who are doing wrong how civilised people behave. Killing another human is the act of an uncivilised society. I want no part in it.
Wasn't there some smarmy Lib Dem MP a while ago who went on Daily Politics saying he'd raise a members bill for whatever the Daily Politics show voted for as the most popular?
Death Sentence was overwhelmingly the most popular and he sharp changed his mind.