If there is a concerted effort to enact tactical voting at the next GE...

This kind of thing you mean?

https://tactical.vote

https://tacticalvote.co.uk

https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/tactical-voting/keep-out/conservative

Oh! Thanks!👍😁

In Australia parties hand out 'How to vote cards' because of the preferential system and all of its horrible complexities.

It's basically a social disease, tactical voting in the long term just encourages more of the current status quo in the UK FPTP system.

We in the UK desperatly need PR style voting. Yes it will let in a few fringes of the far left and far right, but overall it will be a more balanced vote, as most people are not extreme in any way, they just want a functional government.

Ask the Scottish Tories.

Or Scottish Labour, doesn't make that much difference.

those that wish to lend their vote to the Greens, Labour or Lib Dems in order to keep a Tory MP out locally and THE Tories out nationally....

Any thoughts on this topic?

Tactically voting Green to keep the Tories out is unlikely to be an option for anyone anywhere in the UK.

And voting LibDem to keep the Tories out has lost much of its appeal since the LibDems enabled the Tories to hang on to power and helped implement austerity policies for five years.

mattyfez
Full Member

It’s basically a social disease, tactical voting in the long term just encourages more of the current status quo in the UK FPTP system.

Mmm, maybe. But in the meantime where we have FPTP,it makes sense to vote accordingly

Difficult to vote this time.

Most political parties have gone semi-insane thinking they can curb the inflation.

Mmm, maybe. But in the meantime where we have FPTP,it makes sense to vote accordingly

I agree in principal, it's just logic. But whilst this mind set pervails it's not going to change. The only way to break this lab/con rotation, the only way to make progress is to break the lab/con continuity is to get a party in that wants PR, that wants better trade with our neighbours and friends. Niether Labour or the Cons offer this.

EDIT...they all think in 4 year terms...you can't think in 4 year terms in gov... you have to think in 10, 25, 50 year terms.

Any wannabe government thinking short term will not get my vote.

We need long term strategy that the next government can't just put in the bin..environment, health, social, millitary, infrasturcture... I'm not seeing any of this from the tories or labour.

What we really need is some long term cross-party plans that cannot be overridden by the gov-de-jour.

It is probably best to wait until the next general election campaign kicks off. Under the current conditions no tactical voting would be necessary to keep the Tories out, Labour would have a huge working majority.

https://twitter.com/DeltapollUK/status/1642930659713794050

Although almost all opinions polls are constantly showing the LibDem share of the vote to be less than they achieved last general election it looks fairly likely, thanks to FPTP and the Tories doing very badly, that they would possibly double their current number of MPs.

Any party that can convince me of curbing inflation or reducing energy cost without unicorn green initiative reinforcement may get my vote.

mattyfez
Full Member

I agree in principal, it’s just logic. But whilst this mind set pervails it’s not going to change.

I don't think I can agree with that tbh. Seems more that failing to work with the rubbish system we have will just reinforce it and help maintain the status quo with its faux supermajorities and crushing of smaller parties. Tactical voting helps to reduce some of the failures of FPTP, and that's necessary if we're not just going to always give victories to the people who gain most from FPTP and will never bring forward a change.

You're absolutely right that til we have a leading party that'll fight for it, it's never going to happen. But how does not voting tactically today and giving more power to the people who'll never make the change help get us there?

(I think realistically, we need for Labour to be able to see past their current "we might not win but we'll always be first or second so we'll stick with that even if it hands the tories a crushing fake-landslide majority out of a 43.6% vote share" approach. But we also need them to be in some position of power to do so. What are the odds of all that happening? "Now that it's US with the undemocratic fake majority, we've had a change of heart!")

Maybe we'll see a tactical alliance between Labour and the Tories to "make a success of Brexit". After all they have acted in lock-step to "get brexit done" over the past few years.

The best tactic might be not to vote.

Consider where we are and bear in mind voting got us here.

? Management committee heavily influenced by public opinion.

? PR

In my working life companies that radically changed direction/approach/management every 4 or so years went bankrupt (*and just like politics the people at the top, with ultimate responsibility seemed to do ok for failure)

Every parliamentary vote is a tactical vote. Even if you’re married to one of the candidates, the chances are they will have policy ideas you disagree with, or at least some different priorities about what needs addressing most and/or soonest. No candidate will map onto your own personal politics, needs and wants 100%. Work out who the contest in your seat is really between, and decide which of those candidates may move national politics in the way you want if they get elected to be your MP.

Local politics is often more interesting (ironically given the turn out) with more chance for independents (and independent thinkers with a party rosette) to get a chance to make a difference locally. Find out more about who’s standing before following what national politics might normally lead you to vote. Getting to actually talk to your candidate for councillor is normally pretty easy (and if not, that tells you something as well).

@towser I think Brexit is a good example of making sure you do vote.  I was out on the evening of the vote and lots of people I was with said they hadn't bothered as there was no way vote leave was going to prevail.  We wrapped up the evening in the early hours and Farage was more or less conceding defeat this time round, then we woke up to the actual result.

A lot of those folk who didn't vote regretted it.

Not voting means you don't use the one tool at your disposal to affect change. It should be compulsory to vote.

Vote early and vote often, I have lots of photocard id, might as well make those tory fears become a reality!

@twistedpencil

I suspect some of the people who voted on Brexit also regretted it.

Ultimately I think we need to move to much longer term strategies, especially on big stuff and I don’t think regular changes of plan/direction often underpinned by lower layers with different goals/targets is the best solution.

Also (*cynic alert, cynic alert), did I say cynic alert, add a pinch of salt, but I can’t help but feel that “what do we want - better NHS, less potholes, better services, cheaper power/utilities……etc etc”, I’m failing to see how voting for tax cuts will achieve this but I’m pretty sure an awful lot of people who want the improvements will.

Is this not just the thinking of the hand wringing politically engaged middle class (of which I am a signed up lifetime member) which might make us feel 'empowered' but is pretty much irrelevant in the big scheme of things? Because although 'we' make up a disproportionate percentage of the people who bother to vote in comparison to our size in the community at large we are still a tiny minority. Most voters are not engaged enough and either vote on pretty simple levels of understanding and emotion or family tradition. Added to that the fact that most of 'us' (along with everybody else) live in very safe seats where 'our' vote will make **** all difference, tactical or otherwise. So knock yourself out but really I genuinely think unless you are lucky enough to live in a marginal constituency the whole thing is really not for you.

Gotta love a FPTP system for engaging the population in representative politics. And as ever those in power (or with a realistic chance of getting into power) with the opportunity to change it are the very people who benefit most by keeping the status quo, so don't expect a change any time soon; certainly not within this middle aged hand wringer's lifetime.

After all they have acted in lock-step to “get brexit done” over the past few years.

This is a silly criticism. The Tories have an absolute majority in the UK Parliament. Labour has totally failed to electable enough to win power up to this point, and this has enabled the Tories to cock up the way Brexit was done. It is not true that Labour and Tories have been in lockstep to get Brexit done.

We in the UK desperatly need PR style voting.

We already have PR in the UK in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and London...

Might as well end the thread now, the practical and sensible responses are already in, the usual suspects will be along shortly to turn it into the usual political shitfest.

Might as well end the thread now, the practical and sensible responses are already in, the usual suspects will be along shortly to turn it into the usual political shitfest.

Some are here already.

It is not true that Labour and Tories have been in lockstep to get Brexit done.

Whipped for, voted for, argued for, in complete denial about scale of the harms it's unavoidably causing.

There's no small irony in criticising FPTP for it's democratic deficit, while at the same time complaining about Brexit and wilfully ignoring (forgetting?) that a majority voted for it and their political representatives are enacting it.

There won't be large-scale, organised tactical voting.

It's always a niche or personal thing.

But yeah...

Might as well end the thread now, the practical and sensible responses are already in, the usual suspects will be along shortly to turn it into the usual political shitfest.

There’s no small irony in criticising FPTP for it’s democratic deficit, while at the same time complaining about Brexit and wilfully ignoring (forgetting?) that a majority voted for it and their political representatives are enacting it.

Voted for Brexit in a advisory referendum (and all the reduced rules that go along with the rather crucial advisory part).

Are you really agreeing with Theresa May that 80% of the UK population voted for parties that were committed to triggering Article 50 and therefore triggering Article 50 was the settled will of the British people?

I don't think you're making the strong case for a lack of democratic deficit you think you are.

We in the UK desperatly need PR style voting

We voted on the alternate vote system in 2011 but didn't want to change FPTP.

But honestly, we don't live in a real democracy anyway.

"Everyone else is a usual suspect and their opinions are a shitfest. I, on the other hand, am an enlightened centrist and my views are merely pragmatic common sense", say a couple of the usual suspects from their Big Hitter thrones. 🤣

Locally, this is the level of change needed to get my local Tory out. We've had a Tory MP here since the last century from the info I can find.😐

Would be great to see here getting the boot.

There won’t be large-scale, organised tactical voting.

It’s always a niche or personal thing.

This.

With the low barrier for entry to voting in this country (not saying I disagree, just to be clear) for every person making a concerted effort to understand politics, read every manifesto, make an informed, detailed choice; there's a thousand shuffling to the polls and ticking the same colour rossette that their parents and grandparents have always done. Your tick is worth just the same as theirs.

I am a fan of voting/democracy in general, but purely voting and doing nothing else, you are one equal* voice in 30 million(?) or so; and nothing more. No matter how hard you moan about it.

*although equal is not correct nationally, there are some places where votes are meaningless, and others where they will sway the country. But I defy you to find any person who has chosen to live somewhere purely based on their ability to vote in a close election.

We voted on the alternate vote system in 2011 but didn’t want to change FPTP.

Part of the problem in 2011, indeed it was a huge problem, is that PR was seen as the LibDem's baby. A referendum on PR was a condition which the LibDems put for going into coalition with the Conservatives.

In 2011 there was a huge backlash against the LibDems and there was undoubtedly an element, especially among Labour supporters, of opposing PR just to punish the LibDems.

Nick Clegg's support for PR unfortunately poisoned the debate.

However opinion polls consistently show very significant public support for PR.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-we-change-our-current-british-voting-system

…what form will it take, logistically I mean?

What are Cambridge Analytica and 'Fancy bears' up to theses days?
Last time someone needed Coordinated voting in the UK those were the people that sorted it out... Anyone got a few million quid spare to adjust voter's hearts and minds via FB? That's all it really takes.

Actually we accidentally caught a Tory party political broadcast last night, TBH if you want to nudge people towards electing someone else, just let Lil-Rishi keep on attempting to win us all over...

Poopscoop
Full Member
Locally, this is the level of change needed to get my local Tory out. We’ve had a Tory MP here since the last century from the info I can find.😐

Would be great to see here getting the boot.

Forgive me if I am missing something very obvious, but how do you believe that PR would help you to defeat the Tories locally when you provide figures showing them receiving 60% of the vote?

Poopscoop
Full Member
Locally, this is the level of change needed to get my local Tory out. We’ve had a Tory MP here since the last century from the info I can find.😐

Would be great to see here getting the boot.

Wokingham now has a Minority/Coalition Lib-Lab council having never returned a non-tory MP under any circumstances except:
1) Wokingham Borough didn't exist as a seat.
2) The Tory party didn't exist.

Redwood is looking delightfully sweaty* in his pamphlets.

*They're printed on the shiniest paper imaginable

Nick Clegg’s support for PR unfortunately poisoned the debate.

Well that and the fact he failed to get it.
That he thought AV was a 'miserable little compromise' and was right about it definitely didnt help.

Anyone got a few million quid spare to adjust voter’s hearts and minds via FB?

Well Clegg is rather senior there nowadays.

for every person making a concerted effort to understand politics, read every manifesto, make an informed, detailed choice; there’s a thousand shuffling to the polls and ticking the same colour rossette that their parents and grandparents did

This is cobblers, and snobby cobblers at that. Partisan alignment has never been weaker in the UK. Over the three GEs to 2019, half the electorate changed their party. Most electors are not voting based on who their parents voted for.
https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-resources/press-release-most-volatile-british-electorate-in-modern-times/#.ZC1xtaTRY0G

Forgive me if I am missing something very obvious, but how do you believe that PR would help you to defeat the Tories locally when you provide figures showing them receiving 60% of the vote?

I'm not speaking for Poopy, but I think you are missing that the next election will be held in 2024, not 2019.

Conservative support has been substantially eroded since those figures were generated.

I think realistically, we need for Labour to be able to see past their current “we might not win but we’ll always be first or second so we’ll stick with that even if it hands the tories a crushing fake-landslide majority out of a 43.6% vote share” approach.

I think there’s also a massive push back from mainly urban Lab council administrations, some of whom are very safe but also of dubious competence (Not thinking of Manchester City Council at all, who IIRC once had 95/96 councillors from Lab off 60% of the vote, and the other had been booted out of Lab for misconduct).

Ironically, if the LDs had asked for STV for local elections (which makes much more sense than the idiocy that is electing in thirds by FPTP) they’d have probably got that without a referendum.

Forgive me if I am missing something very obvious, but how do you believe that PR would help you to defeat the Tories locally when you provide figures showing them receiving 60% of the vote?

PR will dramatically change the political landscape.

Tories and Labour are both large coalitions of different viewpoints currently - because they have to be, because of FPTP. If we got PR they'd splinter, and take supporters with them. And people would vote for the other parties because their votes would count. Safe to say that the Tory vote would split and so would Labour.

There’s no small irony in criticising FPTP for it’s democratic deficit, while at the same time complaining about Brexit and wilfully ignoring (forgetting?) that a majority voted for it and their political representatives are enacting it.

And how big was that majority, exactly? I believe the numbers were 52% for, 48% against, something like 11million difference out of a total of 33,551,983.

Now I dunno about you, but despite BloJo’s blustering that doesn’t look like a vast majority.

Now I dunno about you, but despite BloJo’s blustering that doesn’t look like a vast majority.

For me the larger problem is what exactly were people voting for? It was an open ended proposition where all things were being promised to all people even if contradictory.

Ask the Scottish Tories.

Or Scottish Labour.

Or SNP, doesn’t make that much difference.

FTFY