You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
....and we all carried on riding like we do. Would drivers accept our position and right to be on the road any more? Would we get the space and respect we deserve?
Just a thought I had after reading one of the latest anti-bike rants.
No, simple answer.
Nope
Pretty sure I paid tax on my last bike.
So No.
So what would happen?
If they're taxed on pollution as per VED then they'd be free, so it would raise no revenue, but cost millions to implement, so completely pointless....
No
Caravanners are licensed and VEDed, they get just as much hatred.
No. Motorists don't have an issue with cyclists because they aren't licensed or don't have to have insurance. Those are just excuses to hide their self-entitlement issues that driving a car seems to give so many people.
I shall adopt footflaps excellent post as my argument in future, should it be required. Bike is low emissions, hence zero VED. I like it.
Given that there are many road users who take no notice of other, taxed etc, road users already, one does have to wonder why anyone would think this would make a scrap of difference.
Bad road users would remain just that. Ditto good ones. The only real change would be the almost inevitably massive fiscal cock up and overspend involved in implementing anything like this.
No.
of course not.
[s]drivers[/s] idiots who rant about cyclists are not being reasonable - they make up imaginary things about 'road tax', and non-existent rules in the highway code.
giving into idiots and their stupidity won't turn them into sensible, rational people.
Not that I can imagine, the issues are with impatience, 'us vs them', 'in group/out group' mentality.
For instance, a motorist who is not also a cyclist may see all manner of twottish behaviour from other motorists and never blame 'motorists', yet the minute that twottish road user is a cyclist - you can guess the rest.
As for respect, lack of respect is only part of it, basic education as to the highway code is lacking, as evidenced from ranty anti-cyclist articles such as the recently pulled Motorsport one.
These are my thoughts exactly. Interesting to see that the NSW government is considering something along these lines.
I do think it would be funny to implement it for a trial period so all the cocks who complain (incorrectly) about road tax, and that cyclists need licenses could see that it will have no effect. In fact, given that the cocks in cars think cyclists have no right to be on the road as they don't carry a tax disc, if we did have to,I reckon more cyclists would ride more assertively.
Nope, nee chance.
The anti-cycling mindset adopted by many motorists is very interesting and worrying! I was talking to two different colleauges recently who are very clever, great at what they do, nice people, etc. etc.
but as soon as the conversation turned to cyclists it was f**ing this t***t's that! Unbelievable and left me thinking about it more and more but can't understand it.
Given that there are many road users who take no notice of other, taxed etc, road users already, one does have to wonder why anyone would think this would make a scrap of difference?
This. It's not working for motorised vehicles at the moment...
You'll notice that all the anti-cycling rants rely on anecdote/personal information rather than data or downright factual inaccuracy, which never stands up to scrutiny - which tells you it's just prejudice and inability to cope with change.
Edit: I get tailgated all the time when I drive at 30 in a 30 limit. My car is fully taxed and insured...
samuri got it spot on.
they would accept our position and right to be on the road if:
-we got 'out the way' of them
-didn't filter past them in queues
-let them overtake seconds before they were turning off
-didn't get to places quicker than them
-had engines
These cars don't pay "road tax" either:
[img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/76/DEF3AF5D90E06B68F4FE136EF9F.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/8E/4B123F25DF74D89DE0312E34C2A.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/88/539BC3D0B459BABF5DBE43F407F4D.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/64/8E13B6C08C74DDEDE781AD8F1A1E1.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/EA/AF5E5FF94AD7F4E693A7BDC550C283.jp g" target="_blank">
http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/76/DEF3AF5D90E06B68F4FE136EF9F.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/8E/4B123F25DF74D89DE0312E34C2A.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/88/539BC3D0B459BABF5DBE43F407F4D.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/64/8E13B6C08C74DDEDE781AD8F1A1E1.jpg [/img][img] http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/EA/AF5E5FF94AD7F4E693A7BDC550C283.jp g"/> [/img]
When was the last time you saw someone ranting that they had no right to be on the road?
It's just a handy way for them to get into "them and us" tribal mentality. If it wasn't "road tax" it'd be tests, insurance, number plates, red light jumping, riding in the primary, parking, etc etc
but as soon as the conversation turned to cyclists it was f**ing this t***t's that! Unbelievable and left me thinking about it more and more but can't understand it.
I know several like this.
And they're motorcyclists too.
How much is a typical annual "tax disc" these days, for a pretty much bog standard car?
Used to be about 100 quid when I lived, there, so I'll assume 200 quid now. My last bike was bought in UK for 2 grand, so that's 400quid in VAT. Taking a typical 12k miles per year (well that's what they'll tell direct line), I reckon I am now *[u]entitled[/u]* to a good 20-25k miles of cycling on UK roads.
The lowest emission cars already pay no tax so why would cycles? Most car drivers seem blind to the fact that you don't pay to use the road but instead you pay to use a car on the road based on the amount of pollution produced. Pedestrians, wheelchairs,horses and prams all use the roads too and I've never seen anything about them paying tax.
They'd just find something else to moan about instead, the problem is the type of car driver that moans about cyclists is the type of person who thinks they have right of way regardless, the tax thing is just something they latch onto,
If we did pay tax they'd just come up with some other bollocks to try to justify their shit because their real problem is they're too self important and safely isolated in their tin box to slow down for a little bit, every journey is time critical it seems..
I had someone turning purple with rage because I stopped and shooed a duck off the road rather than run it over once 😕 the thirty seconds it took was just too much for them to bear..
It's all back to front though isn't it - some are licensed to use the road (license in the sense of 'have permission'). Others don't require a license (permission) so must be the ones who are there by right.
car drivers don't have a right to be on the road, they are licensed to use the road.
Cyclists have a right to use the road.
Have to get rid of "car tax" entirely. And I mean completely entirely, not even anything that's technically an emissions tax, but completely remove any compulsory payment or proof of compliance associated with a single vehicle to be permitted to use the road.
Raise the money by other means.
I've never had the "road tax" argument while out on my bike
I'd hope it would go something like this:
ANGRY MOTORIST: You don't even pay "road tax"
ME: Actually I'll think you find I do, this year I paid £200 "road tax" for my car which is Band H. You would have paid £125 for that Band E Diesel shit box you call a car. So if you fancy having an argument about "road tax" best pay me the difference first or just shut the **** up instead!
car drivers don't have a right to be on the road, they are licensed to use the road.Cyclists have a right to use the road.
You know, I have never, ever, not once seen someone write that on here.
No, simple answer.
From wikipedia...
Various classes and uses of vehicle are provided with a tax disc without charge. These include: electrically propelled vehicles, vehicles constructed before 1974, trams, vehicles which cannot convey people, police vehicles, fire engines, ambulances and health service vehicles, mine rescue vehicles, lifeboat vehicles, certain road construction and maintenance vehicles, vehicles for disabled people, certain agricultural and land maintenance vehicles, road gritters and snow ploughs, vehicles undergoing statutory tests, vehicles imported by members of foreign armed forces, and crown vehicles.[11] It should be noted that although police vehicles are in fact crown vehicles and therefore exempt from the requirement for a tax disc, they generally display them regardless to suppress complaints from members of the public who might be stopped for failure to display a valid tax disc on their own vehicle, and thus make accusations of double-standards, no matter the lack of merit.
Next time some one tells you you should not be on the road as you don't have a 'tax disc' 'smack them good and proper' (see thread on using bicycle as a shield), then tell them that the police and ambulance cannot come to them as they don't have a tax disc either.... 🙂
No. Motorists don't have an issue with cyclists because they aren't licensed or don't have to have insurance. Those are just excuses to hide their self-entitlement issues that driving a car seems to give so many people.
This, and what GrahamS said too.
If it were really about money spent then people who spend less on driving related-taxes would happily defer to people who spend more... right?
I saw this on twitter earlier:
[img] 
[/img]
Yep, insulting and threatening to kill a mother and child for having the audacity to cycle along a residential street. 😯
Do you think his mind would be changed if they had paid some road tax?
If it wasn't "road tax" it'd be tests, insurance, number plates
Which is my point. Take away all of those arguments to prove to the motorust that they're not valid.
I think maybe a better question is what is it about Anglophone countries that seem to make this such an issue.
Australians in particular seem to keep moaning about something called "rego" which cyclist don't pay
In the US its "State and Federal taxes" - probably
Our European friends don't seem to have them same issue
Take away all of those arguments to prove to the motorust that they're not valid.
The only way you'll take away ALL those arguments is to get everyone to stop cycling and take the car.
Course not- the whole "you don't pay road tax" thing is just a token effort to justify an irrational dislike, it's not the cause.
That tweet ^^^ is truely nasty. Can it not be reported to the Police?
People's attitude to cyclists is truly shocking - I'm not sure people are aware how they sound when they come out with stuff like that.
Stanley Millgram and whoever ran the Stanford Prison experiment would no doubt have something interesting to say about how well-protected metal boxes insulate people from the harm they do...
You know, I have never, ever, not once seen someone write that on here.
I have seen it once on here, which is why I was repeating it.
Was it from you ?
The only way some motorists will stop hating cyclists, is if we all stop cycling.
car drivers don't have a right to be on the road, they are licensed to use the road.Cyclists have a right to use the road.
It's a nice sort of theory (although you'll note which of the two groups can use motorways) but it's pretty meaningless - there would loads of wailing and gnashing of teeth were the government to ban cycling on A-roads (say), but do you really think they couldn't do so if wanted to?
The only way some motorists will stop hating cyclists, is if we all stop cycling.
I can deal with being hated. It's the driving straight at me which scares me.
But this happens when I'm in my car and running/walking as well.
I know it feels like we're under attack when riding sometimes but my observation is it's wider than car vs cyclist - there's a much bigger problem about how some people display psychopathic behaviour when they get in the driving seat...
That tweet ^^^ is truely nasty. Can it not be reported to the Police?
Tricky - he doesn't make a direct threat - he could easily argue that he was just observing that she was putting herself at risk of harm, not threatening that harm himself.
Sadly though it's not exactly an isolated case. Read [url= https://twitter.com/CycleHatred/ ]CycleHatred on twitter[/url] for a thoroughly depressing insight into how [i]some[/i] idiots see cyclists.
Here are some (censored) recent ones:
Kill all bike riders just drive over em easy as lolCan't stand cyclists who feel they belong out in the middle of the lane #youbelongbythecurb #gobses #petpeeve
Sometimes when I'm waiting for my bus and a cyclist passes by I just want to closeline one of these b**s #RandomFactAboutMe
Cyclists who don't use the cycle lane deserve to be run over
The audacity of bicyclists these days...like do to want me to run you over!?
[img]
[/img]
cannot stand cyclists, get out of the middle of my lane so I can get 'round you ? idiot
If I was given 24hrs to live I would borrow my pals van and run over as many cyclist as possible.. Specially them soapy courier ones
Little message to all the cyclists in the Tameside area. Get on the pavement or get a f****g bus.
Most dangerous road users in London are cyclists. They are a menace to pedestrians. Can't believe they want the right to cycle on pavements.
🙁
How do we appease these people?
By getting in a car and joining the queue, preferably behind them.
Most dangerous road users in London are cyclists. They are a menace to pedestrians.
haha - loving the logic there
I refuse to read any of those twitter feeds, farcebook pages, etc. just as I also refuse to pay attention to any of those cyclist video youtube pages where the guy shouts out the car reg. numbers of every other car.
Getting put in a wooden box by some nutter in a van is one thing. I'd rather not do it myself by getting stressed beyond healthy levels.
Getting put in a wooden box by some nutter in a van is one thing. I'd rather not do it myself by getting stressed beyond healthy levels.
[i]"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."[/i]
I refuse to read any of those twitter feeds, farcebook pages, etc. just as I also refuse to pay attention to any of those cyclist video youtube pages where the guy shouts out the car reg. numbers of every other car.
Same, have unfollowed all the crazy-numberplate-shouty-people!
My standard answer to morons stating that cyclists shouldn't be on the road as they don't pay "road tax" is generally the following which I found somewhere once:
By that logic, you shouldn't be on the road if you're disabled, if your car's older than 40 years, you drive a tractor, an electric vehicle, anything with emissions lower than 100g/km, an NHS vehicle, or a horse. Or, of course, you're on foot.
have unfollowed all the crazy-numberplate-shouty-people!
If you are prepared to pick through the angst and shouting there is sometimes some good information to be had there (e.g. learning from other people's mistakes: as a driver and a cyclist!)
The only way some motorists will stop hating cyclists, is if we all stop cycling.
This ^^.
Let's suppose for a moment that there was a way of "taxing" all bikes and that all cyclists started paying this nominal sum and it was enforceable, traceable etc.
Straight away there'd be complaints that it wasn't enough or that we needed insurance too or that we still jumped red lights, rode on pavements, didn't use cycle paths...
Quite apart from the fact that a bike tax is completely unenforceable and impractical, it wouldn't solve the problem, it'd just shift the complaints elsewhere. Appeasement isn't the answer - it's going to take years of education to dispel the myths and bullshit that people come up with. And every single time a newspaper or website runs their usual clickbait anti-cyclist rhethoric, every time some Jeremy Clarkson wannabe posts on the Daily Wail forum, it takes things one step back.
it's going to take years of education to dispel the myths and bullshit that people come up with
Education that isn't being provided.
Has been done before - I started the thread.
General consensus was that most people would not pay tax for riding their bike and no it wouldn't change motorists perceptions...
The only way some motorists will stop hating cyclists, is if we all stop cycling.
this, and it depresses me beyond words.
Driving is such a frustrating experience these days, so all you're seeing is the frustration targeted at another group. Nothing to do with actual cycling or taxes, just a venting. Personally I hate driving round town in rush hour - can't think of anything worse.
Although cyclegaz (the shouty bloke) is actually quite an intelligent guy and has a lot of method in what initially appears to be madness
One if the tabloid s used one of his videos without crediting him and he got thousands out of them by being very professional and sensible about it all
Gave it to a charity I believe.
Yep, Gaz has managed to get a couple of good convictions based on his video evidence.
This one being particularly scary:
And he also runs [url= http://www.sillycyclists.co.uk ]Silly Cyclist[/url]s which is an effort to highlight bad cycling and educate cyclists through examples.
Never understood the term filtering as effectively your overtaking on the inside or outside of traffic
whoever ran the Stanford Prison experiment
I know this one! It was Zimbardo - do I win a prize?
It was on a prog on R4 about an hour ago 🙂
This one being particularly scary
No! No! No! you have to realize that this sort of thing [i]only[/i] ever happens when there is a cyclist with a helmetcam to film it. He deliberately made it happen so he could film it.
Steam rollers don't pay "road tax" either.
Car drivers tend not to try and squeeze them off the road.
brooess - Member.....I can deal with being hated. It's the driving straight at me which scares me.
But this happens when I'm in my car and running/walking as well.
I know it feels like we're under attack when riding sometimes but my observation is it's wider than car vs cyclist - there's a much bigger problem about how some people display psychopathic behaviour when they get in the driving seat...
exactly
recent conversation
women with dog steps out from behind car parked in layby onto shared use path (I'd already seen her with tail gate up and slowed) but then she blocks my line "you can't ride here its a pavement"
me pointing to sign "its a shared use path"
women "you should be on the road"
me "I'd prefer to be on the road but its very busy and a lot of drivers pass too close"
women "you ride too close and scare my dog"
me "I was riding slowly and you stepped out in front of me and your dog should probably be on a lead, I try to be considerate when I pass people"
women "you don't pay road tax"
me "I drive, I pay road tax to register my vehicle, I pay plenty of other taxes that actually pay for roads - now tell me when you're driving your car and a cyclist is in front of you do you actually hate them being there?"
women "why don't you just f*** off"
its a pointless debate
"you should be on the road"
...
"you don't pay road tax"
You've gotta respect that kind of logic! 😆
I was once shouted at for "riding on the pavement" by someone who was actually standing on the big painted bike symbol and about three yards from the big blue shared use sign.
I do wonder how much this blinkeredness contributes to the "cyclists illegally ride on pavements" trope.
Had a conversation with a female driver last week.
She overtook me on a blind, near 90 degree bend on a narrow road with high stone walls limiting forward view, double white lines (a pretty good indicator of the advisability of overtaking) and two oncoming vehicles.
I waved my hand at her and she stopped. I spoke calmy and politely all through the conversation, i told her that what she had done was dangerous & illegal because of the double white lines.
Her reply was that she gave me plenty of room & she knew what she was doing because she had family that cycles and rode horses.
When i asked if she would be happy for her family members to be passed that close on such a tight corner she could only reply "oh, you're just being a tosser now" so i rode off.
Ultimately she knew very well what she had done was wrong & dangerous, but she truly believed that her need to be past was far more important than the safety of myself and the oncoming traffic (i did mention she put them at risk too)and was therefore justified in her actions.
How you deal with people like that i have no idea.
That's what I don't get.
All these people who just have to pass right NOW. Immediately. They're all in a huge rush to get past but they all seem to have the time to stop and shout abuse or tell you to pay road tax. How's that work then? Either you're in a hurry or you're not; if #1 then do your dangerous overtake and sod off. Don't then stop and argue about it!
I keep wondering if i could have prevented the incident, i was in primary approaching the bend & went through the corner on a 'racing line' i.e. From primary through the apex & then attempting to retake primary as i was exiting the bend. Never occurred to me that someone would be so daft as to overtake right on the apex of the bend as traffic was oncoming.
Looking back, i cant be sure she even knew i was there, i don't remember hearing her car but i was doing around 20mph at that point (before braking for the corner) & the wind cancels out engine noise somewhat.
Despite the powerful lobby groups here in the UK there will be more and more regulation of motorised traffic, lead by the strong Green Party contingent of our European Parliament.
I suppose there is also an argument to regulate cyclist too because whilst the consequences of stupidly on a bike may be different the cause(****wits) is the same and the more people you prise out of cars the more likely people on bikes become an annoyance.
The answer IMO is somewhere in RichMtb's post, why is driving a car and riding a bike so different in France and Spain than it is in the UK?
I wonder how much sat nav has to do with the overtakes into oncoming traffic... people have essentially switched off their navigation/observation function, and delegated it to the talking machine on the dashboard...
Oh and I did see a few cars try to squeeze past a steam roller last week - on the A23 in Purley - the road narrows as you go past Tesco and at least 3 cars accelerated into the narrowing gap as the steam roller trundled along. The last of the 3 nearly got crushed 😯
I shall adopt footflaps excellent post as my argument in future, should it be required. Bike is low emissions, hence zero VED. I like it.
Mine isn't after last nights Biryiani and methane is 50 time more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2
Read CycleHatred on twitter
What I found most astonishing about the comments on there (and on this thread) is how many people believe cyclists should be on the pavement (illegally). You just can't win, can you.
*rides on the road* - "oi, get on the pavement!"
"Oh, ok!" - *rides on the pavement* - "oi, get on the road!"
We're not going to change anything until either cyclists are as common as cars and drivers are thus much more accustomed to dealing with them, or the infrastructure is in place to carry non-motorised traffic as a separate stream (which is never going to happen). Till then, we just have to try not to get killed.
Or until the law enforces acceptance through truly punitive sanctions against those who transgress the relevant laws.
You know, we've managed to turn things like drink driving, not wearing a seatbelt, and (almost) using the phone whilst driving into socially unacceptable actions. You reckon we could get to a point where driving a ton and a half of steel into someone could be viewed as similarly antisocial rather than an admirable goal?
We've had cars in the hands of the plebeian masses for over 60yrs now & we haven't managed it yet. As a society we are so wedded to the idea of the car that we accept the 2000+ deaths a yr (& many more injured) as a price worth paying.
The weird thing about the "dangerous cyclists using the pavement" trope is that, if you look at the figures, there are loads of people killed on the pavement by CARS every year and usually one or zero killed by cyclists.