[Closed] If a lollypop man waves you through a red light - are you breaking the law?

Yes, you're breaking the law. Lollipop man ought to know better cos one day someone's going to go through red when they shouldn't 🙁
I guess he isn't breaking the law as such, but putting other people's lives at risk.

Not sure what he legality is about stopping for a lollipop man, but if he's using the traffic lights, then that is legal.

Not sure what he legality is about stopping for a lollipop man,

If they tell you to stop with their funny little sign you stop, I don't think they have any authority to wave you through red lights though.

I can't imagine anyone except perhaps the Police have any authority to override traffic law in certain circumstances ... but seeing as most of STW thinks RLJing is great if it's convenient for you, and that riding 'cheeky' trails that they shouldn't is a basic human right, then I'm sure any excuse to go through a red light will be applauded

He can't wave you through a red light. However, I do believe that his sign is legally enforceable

I can't imagine anyone except perhaps the Police have any authority to override traffic law in certain circumstances ... but seeing as most of STW thinks RLJing is great if it's convenient for you, and that riding 'cheeky' trails that they shouldn't is a basic human right, then I'm sure any excuse to go through a red light will be applauded

Sounds like a sternly worded letter to the Daily Mail might be in order regarding these 'cyclists' and their 'cheeky trails'.

Nope. You shouldn't be going through the red light on his say so.

Apparently, even if you jump a red light (or other illegal manoeuvre) to make space for an emergency vehicle you can also get done.
E.g, go over a red light to make way for an ambulance & get flashed by a light jumping camera....the defence of making way for an emergency vehicle apparently won't get you off the fine. Bit stupid, really.

Just to be clear I was on a bike, incase anyone thought otherwise?

Nearly crashed in to a lollipop lady once. She just walked in to the street without even looking to see if it was safe. I'd anticipated it, slowed down, but once a vehicle is within an emergency stopping distance (including reaction time), it really is committed to passing the crossing. My emergency stop included a swerve between the blind old lady and the kerb.

She threatened to report me to the local cop (aka my neighbour!), but I know for a fact that she didn't, or wouldn't, because her job would be at risk. My mistake was not reporting her.

Nope. You shouldn't be going through the red light on his say so.
Apparently, even if you jump a red light (or other illegal manoeuvre) to make space for an emergency vehicle you can also get done.
E.g, go over a red light to make way for an ambulance & get flashed by a light jumping camera....the defence of making way for an emergency vehicle apparently won't get you off the fine. Bit stupid, really.

Really? This doesn't sound right.

I saw a lollipop person on a pedestrian crossing with traffic lights!?

When the lights went green the lollipop person would stop the traffic and let the children cross. Lights went red and tried to wave through the traffic, despite children/parents trying to cross on the traffic lights.

Recipe for disaster, and there were a lot of angry motorists with a long queue, in Stockwood Bristle.

Really? This doesn't sound right.

It is right as it's not safe.

There's a lollipop man who operates right on a T junction on one of my routes to work.

He stops the traffic for every individual child (high school aged), rather than let them wait so that larger groups can cross at one time.

The traffic in all 3 directions is practically gridlocked for an hour every morning because of this plonker.

Berk. 😀

Safer for the person in the ambulance though eh?

Safer for the person in the ambulance though eh?

No, not really not if it causes an accident. I hate to see people doing it when I'm at work, we don't even have an authority on red lights never mind the public.

It is right as it's not safe

What do you suggest motorists blocking your way at a red light should do?

What do you suggest motorists blocking your way at a red light should do?

Move to the side a bit if it's possible, if not just wait until it's safe to go through on green.

While we're on lollipop (wo)men, the old fella who did my son's school patrol got killed -[url= http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/lollipop-man-dies-after-waterlooville-crash-1-4557098 ]Story here[/url]
Although the reports all say it's a busy road - it is dead straight, the lollipop men dress head to toe in hi-viz and there are signs all along the road, yet he managed to be "in collision with a Nissan Micra".

[IMG] [/IMG]

Nearly crashed in to a lollipop lady once. She just walked in to the street without even looking to see if it was safe.

I nearly crashed into one once too. She'd spent so long standing in front of a landrover batting her eyelids at the driver that I figured that the landrover was just having issues and cycled around it.

I have not even googled this factoid to even see if its true. While on a training course last week we were told that the black stripe on a lollipop below the word stop is there to be able to write in chalk any registrations of any cars who fail to stop at a crossing.

Iam off to check my claim.

Ransos, as Drac says....I was told to move as far as possible within the space I had, but I shouldn't jump a red light.
This is one of the reasons I try to leave some space between me & the car in front at lights/roundabouts etc. It gives you a little more room for manoeuvre.

Having said that, if I deem it safe (for me) I will move over stop line etc. & the driver of the emergency vehicle can decide if they wish to proceed.
I will also stick my foot down to get out of the way;again if I deem it safe to do so (and know that I am not gonna get speed camera'd.

Today kids the words for the day are 'common' and 'sense'. Followed closely by pragmatic.

OP sounds like you need to mention to the lollipop person that you cant go through even if he waves you on. I think most of us would go through if in your shoes.

Is it a fact that you can be fined for crossing a red light slightly to let emergency vehicles through? Really? Anybody driving would hopefully make sure they werent about to cause another accident and move out the way if an ambulance was behind them. That seems a bit much. Thats seriously lacks the words common and sense.

Really? This doesn't sound right.

Sorry to say but it's completely correct. Red lights are sacrosanct. No one has the right to go through a red light. And if you are pushing a wheeled carriage (e.g. bicycle, baby buggy, wheelchair) on the pavement then you are also required to stop at a red light.

In fact, if the lights are changing from green to red, you aren't allowed to go through with them on amber.

The only defence that you can possibly use in either case is that either a) you thought the lights were at green, or b) you did not feel that you could stop safely and/or under control.

However, the counter to the former is that you weren't paying attention; and the latter that you were travelling too fast for the prevailing road and traffic conditions.

If you are had up in court for going through a red light, it is VERY unlikely that you'll get away with it, no matter who you are or what the circumstances were.

Of course, like everything else though - it ain't a crime if you don't get caught.

So the light is on red and there is space to safely move over the line to let the trapped ambulance through and you have to let some poor person -probably at deaths door- suffer longer or maybe even die, sometimes seconds can count. Thats just plain dumb.

So the light is on red and there is space to safely move over the line to let the trapped ambulance through and you have to let some poor person -probably at deaths door- suffer longer or maybe even die, sometimes seconds can count. Thats just plain dumb.

Bit overdramatic that, are you big fan of Casualty?

Drac - ER 😉

Hahaha!

However, I do believe that his sign is legally enforceable

The sign IS legally enforceable. Jumping it carries the same penalty (if caught and proved) of jumping red lights. Same with those signs that roadworkers sometimes use, the STOP and GO ones.

A similar variant of those signs (again, legally enforceable) is now starting to be used in some road races:
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/racing-on-the-road/article/roa20110921-New-Developments-in-Road-Marshaling-0

But no, he doesn't have the authority to wave you through. On the other hand, he's probably just thinking he's being nice and letting you get a few metres on the cars stopped there. I've been waved through stop signs by both lollipop people and road workers before.

Say thanks, get on with it. 🙂

Only cops and proper traffic wardens can wave you through a red light.
At least that was the answer on my 82 driving test.

Drac - Moderator

(What do you suggest motorists blocking your way at a red light should do?)

Move to the side a bit if it's possible, if not just wait until it's safe to go through on green.

Interesting, and I was hoping you'd pop up to answer that Drac. I remember reading a report involving hacked off motorists who had crept over the white line to let an ambulance through and were subsequently fined. It did seem incredibly unfair and I have occasionally wondered what I'd do in the same situation.

Good to get it from the horse's gob!

It's ok if it's TJ

I was told (*not sure when, it was either when I did my IAM course and test or more likely when I was doing my probationary training in the police) that trained response drivers (police, fire, ambulance etc) were supposed to turn off sirens / lights if approaching the back of a queue waiting at a red light, so that the people at the front were not encouraged to cross the line

No one has the right to go through a red light. And if you are pushing a wheeled carriage (e.g. bicycle, baby buggy, wheelchair) on the pavement then you are also required to stop at a red light.

NBT we're supposed to have light and sirens on at all times now, that's 24/7.

Move to the side a bit if it's possible, if not just wait until it's safe to go through on green.

Thanks. Judging by the traffic in Bristol, you could be waiting a long time!

Drac - Moderator

What do you suggest motorists blocking your way at a red light should do?

Move to the side a bit if it's possible, if not just wait until it's safe to go through on green.

Whilst I do agree I dare say it's definitely a 'grey area' to many motorists.

To the extent it warrants further education on the matter anyway, wouldn't you say?

That's a fair point Patriotpro given some of the moves taken by people.

nbt - that's what my OH was taught.

Drac - she was also told to limit sirens between certain hours as there were lots of complaints about siren noise. This is in Cambs..

Yeah different Trusts have different policies.

That's interesting drac I've just done my reevaluation day and was told lights always on but sirens only when needed and as little as possible dusk til dawn

To me, it sounds like the op is describing the red light controlling a pedestrian crossing, and only a pedestrian crossing, i.e. not at a road junction, that the lollipop person (pc me!)is 'overriding', rather than a red light controlling a traffic junction.

In this instance if the crossing is controlled by the lollipop, then I thought they fully controlled/ overrode it, and told traffic if they could go through the red light.

Sounds like I'm wrong though. Learnt something today, meaningless to me though as I live in France.

Why is there a lollipop man if there is already a pedestrian crossing with lights? Surely you only need a lollipop man if there isn't a crossing?

given that the red light is an indicator of when to stop at the stop line, which does not continue onto the footway then they have no control over footway traffic be that a pedestrian or wheelchair user. they are controlled by the pedestrian crossing lights if present. pushing a bike or pushchair you are still classed as a pedestrian.

Eh, really? Interesting if the red light applies to the pavement alongside the road as well, never knew that.

Archaic, but true. Any form of transport with wheels is deemed in law to be a "carriage", as are animals used for transport - i.e. horses, but I suppose you could lump elephants and camels into that if you were being really anal.

If the letter of the law is taken at it's most pedantic, traffic signals (i.e. lights and/or authorised person giving hand signals) apply to carriages and animals in the roadway or on footways adjoining said roadway.

Strictly speaking, if you were driving a flock of sheep along a road and you come to a red traffic light or were told to stop by a copper, you have to!

I don't know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren't legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it's temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks. And also houses of ill repute, where it is inadvisable to stop at all if there are law enforcement officials in the immediate vicinity.

pushing a bike or pushchair you are still classed as a pedestrian.

But a pedestrian in charge of a carriage or conveyance - it is the carriage which must stop, not the pedestrian.

If you pick the carriage or canveyance up and carry it, it becomes a package and you can then proceed.

[quote=Drac ]
NBT we're supposed to have light and sirens on at all times now, that's 24/7.

I was GMP, and it was 17 years ago now
dear christ, where does the time go

Firestarter it's not a popular decision with staff or certainly not with local guesthouses.

I don't know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren't legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it's temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks

That's not true.

I bet mate

but as the offence is to cross the white line when the red light is showing, and the white line does not continue onto the footway you are not controlled by it. if you are pushing the bike/pushchair in the carriageway then i would agree. please dont take this as me arguing, im really not, you make a genuinely interesting point and i am happy to be told i am wrong.

certainly if the temporary traffic light has the correct temporary traffic regulatory order attached to it then it is a legal requirement to stop at it. and the sign that says where to stop is classed as the temporary stop line.

but as the offence is to cross the white line when the red light is showing, and the white line does not continue onto the footway you are not controlled by it.

By that argument, you could fly through almost every stop light with impunity just by using the oncoming lane on the other side of the road.

I don't know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren't legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it's temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks.

Wrong.
It's a very common belief though - I believe that the rules changed sometime in the last 5-6 years but a quick google isn't throwing up anything definitive.

Why is there a lollipop man if there is already a pedestrian crossing with lights? Surely you only need a lollipop man if there isn't a crossing?

Because there are a sufficient number of idiots driving who are too stupid/selfish/ignorant/inconsiderate (or all of the above) to use a pelican crossing properly.

Drivers are less likely to shoot through a late orange or jump away too early if there's a human being on the road.

Probably also stops people trying to cross too early/late.

I don't know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren't legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it's temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks.

Wrong.
It's a very common belief though - I believe that the rules changed sometime in the last 5-6 years but a quick google isn't throwing up anything definitive.

Fine, I stand corrected, said the man in the orthpaedic shoes. I wasn't sure if it was correct or not.

but as the offence is to cross the white line when the red light is showing, and the white line does not continue onto the footway you are not controlled by it. if you are pushing the bike/pushchair in the carriageway then i would agree. please dont take this as me arguing, im really not, you make a genuinely interesting point and i am happy to be told i am wrong.

No it's fine, I welcome and encourage informed and legitimate debate. I'll try and find the reference but I'm sure that there is a case somewhere of a cyclist being prosecuted for pushing his machine through a red light on the footway.

Just found this.

http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/traffic_lights.htm

Couple of interesting points, I thought. The first relevant to the earlier conversation, the latter I Did Not Know That and is something I see regularly flaunted.

[b]I had stopped, but I then went through the red light to allow an emergency vehicle pass me, is this a defence?[/b]

In theory, the offence has still been committed but it is most unlikely that a prosecution or endorsement would arise, as there are clear grounds for "special reasons" as to why no punishment should be imposed.

[b]I drive an articulated vehicle. Quite often, when I approach the lights they are green, but by the time by vehicle is through, they have changed to red. There is nothing I can do because of the length of the vehicle. Why should I be prosecuted?[/b]

If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed.

Why is there a lollipop man if there is already a pedestrian crossing with lights? Surely you only need a lollipop man if there isn't a crossing?

They have lollipop people on.Light controlled crossings here as well.

Back to the OP, its an offence as a lollipop person can't wave you through a red, only, like stated Police, traffic warden, PCSO, Highways Agency etc.

But sometimes common sense prevails. If someone was reversing a van out of a street because it is too big to turn round, and the drivers mate asked you to stop I know I would even though legally you don't have to also I've gone through red lights on roadworks when told to by the workmen - guessing the lights were stuck or something.

Anyone ever been stuck at a set of lights for ages, missed several sequences and its obvious they are broke, how long would you wait till you checked it was clear and went through ?

I've done that on the bike as the sensors don't always pick the bike up as being there.

I've heard that people have been done for moving forwards into a no stop box to let an emergency vehicle through in that there London.

On the wirral, we have lolipop people refusing to work and toys out of prams,because they got baseball caps instead of AUTHORITARIAN peaked hats, their words.

The local council is stopping paying lolipop people, its now going to be paid for by the schools,

Sending a traffic enforcement officer out with a book of tickets and a camera, would easily raise enough cash for the lolipop peeps, by issuing tickets to all the parents who cant drive/park/or allow their fat kids to walk more than 15 foot from the school gate.

Anyone ever been stuck at a set of lights for ages, missed several sequences and its obvious they are broke, how long would you wait till you checked it was clear and went through ?

I've done that on the bike as the sensors don't always pick the bike up as being there.

Never had a traffic light sensor fail to trigger when on a bike, although the Dutch/German ones have an induction loop solely for cyclists.

If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed

That sounds unenforceable to me. How the jeff are you supposed to know how long it'll be on green for?

That sounds unenforceable to me. How the jeff are you supposed to know how long it'll be on green for?

Sounds a bit illogical to me too.
In Spain there's a law that says if a peloton of cyclists (eg, on a clubrun) starts to cycle through a junction and the light turns red, the rest of the cyclists (ie, the back half of the group) [b]still have right of way[/b]. Same as for a long vehicle - hence why I can't see how you can enforce a law about not going through if the light changes when you're half way across.

If a lollypop man waves you through a red light - are you breaking the law?

and somebody decides to cross either walking or on a bike or horse and you hit them, i would bet that the lolipop person would deny they waved you through, how do you prove it.

I've heard that people have been done for moving forwards into a no stop box to let an emergency vehicle through in that there London.

I'm a bit more sceptical that anyone has actually been fined or done for it in court when they've pointed out the ambulance fact.

http://www.****/news/article-1204944/Driver-gets-60-fine-moving-yard-red-light-let-police-van-999-pass.html