[Closed] If A Lady Is A Vegan....

Depends. Is the baby a vegan too?

I'm guessing that (since the Lady isn't part of the food chain) it would probably be alright.

I thought you were going to raise the question about whether or not she'd get enough Zinc in her diet.

And why wouldn't she? - its not cows milk.

being vegan is about not abusing animals - no animal is abused in the production of mothers milk.

So there may be a market for vegan dairy products?

I can't believe it's not moo milk.

consent is given, therefore yes. and, in my experience make milkshakes and cheese and stuff.

So there may be a market for vegan dairy products?

What, if the cow's vegan?

Or maybe she should MTFU and get some meat pies down her.

I just assumed you were going to ask if it was OK for her to go 'diving'.

What, if the cow's vegan?

So there may be a market for vegan dairy products?

You'd end up rather over run with baby cows.

Some vegans eat honey, but others don't. There're no hard/fast rules.

[i]There're no hard/fast rules. [/i]

Not eating dead creatures would seem to be a fairly firm full of veganism?

All the vegans I know have and my vegan kids had it.

You seem very confused on what a vegan is but i will add your question to BS vegan bingo under clutching at straws.

Serious answer as per TJ it is about the exploitation of animals and the cruelty inherent in it being industrialised and artificial insemination to keep the cow lactating + the killing of the calf

I see no parallels between this and mammals feeding their young.

of course it's fine its breast milk!

[i]Depends. Is the baby a vegan too?[/i]
Surely this is the salient point. And is it fair to foist your beliefs on an infant?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/vegans-trial-death-baby-breast-milk

Can be done but need to be a bit more careful

And is it fair to foist your beliefs on an infant?

Some vegans don't eat honey?

FFS don't tell me that bees are distressed / harmed / exploited during the production and harvesting of honey.

of course they are Derek FFS man

people honestly think that you can not raise a child on a plant based diet ! ?

fek. 😯

not a vegan by the way.

[i]What like meat eaters getting their kids to eat meat[/i]
Thing is with kids, they tend to eat things that they like, and try their hardest to leave the other stuff. This is a form of *choice*.

FFS don't tell me that bees are distressed / harmed / exploited during the production and harvesting of honey.

of course they are Derek FFS man

I dunno, they seem to quite like being puffed with that smoke as they go all dozy. But then you rip all their hard work out of the hive.

Swings and roundabouts innit? Though not for bees obviously, they'd have to be tiny.

I reckon there is a lot more behind that Guardian article than just veganism/breast milk, just sounds like they hadn't made any efforts at weaning

Quite simply the most stupid question I think I have ever read. 🙂

[b]"You seem very confused on what a vegan is but i will add your question to BS vegan bingo under clutching at straws."[/b]

Not me Squire. I don't actually give one and I'm not participating in the office based [s]arguement[/s] discussion.

Just chucking it up for observation from the great unwashed STW forum members should they be interested.

tell you something i noticed with our bairns andy..i never introduced meat to them at a young age but was ready to let em have some if they just ended up wanting it, they never have and at 6 and 3 years they still look at the stuff as if it's an alien life form.

they like a bit of smoked salmon though. do you think that makes em posh ? 😀

rickets anyone?

[url= http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9332671.Mum_s_vitamin_D_warning/ ]http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9332671.Mum_s_vitamin_D_warning/[/url]

ill informed diet changes never a good idea.

What like meat eaters getting their kids to eat meat
Thing is with kids, they tend to eat things that they like, and try their hardest to leave the other stuff. This is a form of *choice*.

Mine won't touch meat or fish. We've not indoctrinated any of them, but equally not fed them meat or fish as it's not part of our diet.

The eldest refused to put his Waitrose charity coin in a senior citizens Xmas meal club as they were eating turkey in the picture 😯

Being the lady is a Vegan then there would be no traces of dairy product
within the ladies milk, and she is not a cow so all would be fine

Some vegans don't eat honey?

Nope, the argument is that it's cruel to the bees. The vegans I know won't wear silk or wool either, and generally avoid pharmaceutical goods as well (because of animal testing).

Hey I know I'll force my misguided views on my kids!

(actually isn't this parenting in a nutshell?)

I don't quite get the wool argument, as it's bad for the sheep to be left with unkempt fleeces.. so why not use the by product? I suppose it's the whole ethos of farming sheep as they will generally also end up on the table?

[i]We've not indoctrinated any of them, but equally not fed them meat or fish as it's not part of our diet.[/i]

it's tricky, isn't it. Chirstians would argue they don't indoctrinate - they just take their kids to Church every week and pray before meals etc.

children will pick up their parents views and will believe that they are correct/right (often with more verve than their parents do - kids see stuff in very black and white ways).

I have no problem with kids not eating meat but to bring them up in a vegan/vegetarian household and not expect them to accept that as the 'norm' is a bit niaeve.

Mine won't touch meat or fish. We've not indoctrinated any of them, but equally not fed them meat or fish as it's not part of our diet.

lol.
i don't speed or drive recklessly, but then i don't own a car.

children will pick up their parents views and will believe that they are correct/right (often with more verve than their parents do - kids see stuff in very black and white ways).

total cobblers.

Won't somebody think of the vegetables??

[i]total cobblers. [/i]

you really think that parents outlook on life is not reflected in their young children?

Won't somebody think of the vegetables?? [tries very hard not to post obvious joke]

to bring them up in a vegan/vegetarian household and not expect them to accept that as the 'norm' is a bit niaeve.

What's the problem if they do accept veganism as the norm?

it is yes but not in the black and white way you suggest.

What like meat eaters getting their kids to eat meat
Thing is with kids, they tend to eat things that they like, and try their hardest to leave the other stuff. This is a form of *choice*.

re the link i think it may have more to do with the p[arents being nutters rather than vegans

At the time of their daughter's death, they were running an organic food business and refused to eat any animal products. Daquo said they had a mistrust of traditional medicine and preferred to treat their children's complaints with advice from books.

"The couple did not follow the doctor's advice to take the baby to hospital when they went for her nine-month checkup and found she was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight," he said. Instead they treated her with cabbage poultices, mustard and camphor and washed her with earth and clay instead of giving her baths, the court heard.

have no problem with kids not eating meat but to bring them up in a vegan/vegetarian household and not expect them to accept that as the 'norm' is a bit niaeve

If some vegams won't eat honey because of animal cruelty they don't deerve to taste the sweet sticky goodness, so good riddance.

does that also mean they won't eat vegtables that have to be pollunated? these days thats a big operation, bees are delivered in their millions especially for the job. surely millions of bees flying around in hot, sweaty polytunnels is cruel?

Won't somebody think of the vegetables??

Next time it could be a pepper's face.

[img] [/img]

Thing is with kids, they tend to eat things that they like, and try their hardest to leave the other stuff. This is a form of *choice*.

[i]Nice attempt to move the goalposts but whether you force a meat diet or a non meat diet on your child the parent has decided what the children eat - its a rubbish point you make as the argument applies to both groups.[/i]
Not a case of moving the goalposts at all. The parent has decided what they want the child to eat. The child decides whether to eat it or not.

good point well made donk.

The child decides whether to eat it or not.

'back in the day' you got another chance to decide if you wanted to eat it or not, at the next meal time.

Even better, as you are giving them the option to change their minds. Up to the point when the food goes mouldy, of course.

i had forgotten about that mr smith my folks did that all the time! might have to bring that rule in at nonk towers. 😈

is it fair to foist your beliefs on an infant?

The parent has decided what they want the child to eat

DONK you should get him a FS balance bike and some body armour as he sounds like a Downhiller to me 😉
Mine did the run down from Leads mine along the bridleway to bottom of rivvy at the weekend and now think they are proper MTBers as they have ridden the "bumpy" stuff

I have no problem with kids not eating meat but to bring them up in a vegan/vegetarian household and not expect them to accept that as the 'norm' is a bit niaeve.

I don't see it as naive - there is far more pressure,opportunity, whatever to eat meat than not. I've never even mentioned what was in a McDonalds burger, but I have been asked if it had meat in it or not. I wouldn't stop them having one if they chose too either.
I'd say all of their friends eat meat in front of them every day, this contributes to the norm also. As does more or less the rest of the world they come into contact with (school dinners, snacks at nursery etc.)

The eldest certainly knows it is unusual, as he's exposed to more of the world than the others and has plenty of opportunity to eat it without fear of censure - we don't ever mention it. But he always chooses not to eat it. The youngest will 'table surf' parties and pick up the odd sausage roll, but doesn't make a bee line for it.

[i]Do meat eaters do this ss well - it not really a controversial point.
Vegans do it, Meat eaters do it its what parents do when feeding their kids. It is not a "vegan" issue that eradicates choice [ it does but for both diets as someoen else has chosen. We could say the same if all we ever did was hive our kids Indian food][/i]
So if we offered one of ours meat, and they didn't want it, we'd try to find another way of giving them the nutrients they require. Not force them to eat the meat. If we were vegan, and our child wanted to eat meat, would it be fair to refuse them?

[i]I wouldn't stop them having one if they chose too either.[/i]

I think what I was tryign to say was that if you never go into MacDondalds your kids will never ask to go there - it's just not on their radar as something you do as a family. They may be curious about it but they won't see it as something that 'we' (your family) do.

It's not wrong, it's just how things are.

All humans pick up cultural norms initially from their parents/immediate family and they're then exposed to a wider range of influences and may choose, later on, to adopt a different lifestyle.

'back in the day' you got another chance to decide if you wanted to eat it or not, at the next meal time

Good job things have moved on eh? Wonderful thing, progress 🙂

I have no problem with kids not eating meat but to bring them up in a vegan/vegetarian household and not expect them to accept that as the 'norm' is a bit niaeve.

Our kids (6 & 8 ) don't really see it as the norm. Their grandparents eat meat, their friends eat meat, meat is on TV and in the shops. I think its natural that any beliefs the parents hold are likely to get passed on to the kids.

I ate meat up until aged 14(38 now) and wish that I had never been brought up on it. I also was bought up a Christian and now I can think and reason for myself I wish I'd never been also. But still, I recognise that my parents did their best by what they believed and thank them for providing me with enough 'consciousness' to question things and act on them.

I think kids cannot understand the implications of eating meat and so of course have to go by what their parents say, thats natural and nothing will or should change that.

If we were vegan, and our child wanted to eat meat, would it be fair to refuse them?

[i]How many meat eaters support their kids when they turn vegiie[/i]

My son was a vegetarian between about 11 and 13 and then started eating meat again (not sure why).

We eat meat but made sure he got all the nutrition he needed without it.

As per Junkyard - it's all about the age that children begin to see they have a choice and parents giving them the option to exercise it (within the boundaries of what is 'sensible', obviously). But that applies to everything, not just food.

Thats why I said it depends on age. I accpet I forced them to not eat meat initially in the same way that i accept meat eaters forced their kids to eat meat as at 12 months the kids were hardly choosing

so you denied them the choice. a small child can spit meat out if it doesn't like it, you never gave them that opportunity thus forcing your sensibilities on them before they can even make a choice.

I think what I was tryign to say was that if you never go into MacDondalds your kids will never ask to go there - it's just not on their radar as something you do as a family. They may be curious about it but they won't see it as something that 'we' (your family) do.

It's a fair point, but only really holds water till they start nursery/school - the ensuing social whirl has them exposed to a variety of 'norms'. Then they soon start asking 'we don't we ..' if they are interested. Like skiing and 4x4s 🙂

It's odd. As you no doubt guessed, we wouldn't take them to McDs as a 'treat', but we might stop there if there were no better alternative (Burgerking :-D) and they were starving. But even after several trips with friends (and not us), they still don't ask for burgers.

Maybe they have well developed social skills that let them adapt to each situation perfectly to gain favour, but the state of my car suggests otherwise 🙂

Does she have nice breasts?

His house, his rules. Since when did kids start deciding what's for dinner?!

Not really sure why people have a problem with kids being veg*n.

This really gets on my wick. Some of theses comments...

I was bought up veggie because my in my parents opinion it was the healthiest option. Thats what you do as parents, you do what YOU think is best. If that happens to be veggie, meat eating, vegan, fish only so what. All this stuff about lack of choice, forcing believes on kids is baloney (do you like what I did). As adults we're there to make informed choices for them.

So if the choices I make (or would make, early days yet!) as a parent aren't the same as you would make, you don't like it and you want to tell me about it, jog on.

so you denied them the choice. a small child can spit meat out if it doesn't like it, you never gave them that opportunity thus forcing your sensibilities on them before they can even make a choice.

Do you want me to accept this point again ? Yes I chose what they can eat just like a meat eater chose. I suspect if they spat it our meat eaters would try other meats or fish or “persevere “ with it. They would not go oh look our child wants to be vegan lets respect its wishes at 9 mths to express this view.
The other obvious defence to this claim is to point out that I also denied them the opportunity to decide if they like fags, heroin or special brew or to run out into the road without looking and a million other things they would choose to do..its like they are children and I am parent and more responsible or something.
You think I have not done this argument to death
I got told I was indoctrinating my kids by a muslim mate who sends his kids to a muslim school, them to mosque after school and then at the weekends the y go to mosque to learnt he Koran off by heart…all parents do this and all parents make the choice over diet.

This is the conundrum of the day in this council office apparently.

Tell the workshy jobsworths to stop wasting council taxpayers money and start providing some services.

[b]"Does she have nice breasts?"[/b]

It's a theoretical person so you can theoretically decide for yourself.

The resident office non meat eater (not yet decided if she is or isn't vegan - that's a whole new hot debate just taking shape) has flexi credited herself the rest of the day off. She was quite annoyed by it all.
A bailiff company based in Lancashire will be on reduced referrals as a result.

I would tell them BigJohn but.....I don't really want to, to be honest.

so you denied them the choice. a small child can spit meat out if it doesn't like it, you never gave them that opportunity thus forcing your sensibilities on them before they can even make a choice.

The sensibilities of a parent would usually be of morals,not physical taste. Not liking the taste of something is entirely different from making a choice based on a basic understanding of cruelty or even what in fact meat is which is something kids are capable of after they get a bit older...
A very young child will have no concept of what makes up its food, only what tastes good and what doesn't so asking them to make any kind of moral judgement is perhaps a bit much at such a young age.

What about people that hate animals so much they refuse to eat them. I know a few people that hold that opinion.

A very young child will have no concept of what makes up its food, only what tastes good and what doesn't so asking them to make any kind of moral judgement is perhaps a bit much at such a young age.

you could argue that perhaps imposing a moral judgement on them is a bit much at such a young age.

I wish my parents had been a bit pushier with my diet as a child. I didn't like fruit, so never ate it, and I still can't stand the stuff. About once a year I'll make an effort to try and eat fruit, but it never goes well. I hate the texture, it makes me gag, and for the most part I hate the taste and even the smell. Banana, apples and pineapples are the worst. Eck.

I didn't start eating veg until I was in my mid-teens, and would quite happily put sugar on Frosties and Crunchy Nut Cornflakes, plus 3 teaspoons in my tea. I also religiously drank coffee as a toddler, I remember being no older than four when I threw a cup of tea across the kitchen in disgust because I wanted my usual coffee.

My mother was ace! 😆

you could argue that perhaps imposing a moral judgement on them is a bit much at such a young age.

derek_starship-member
Some vegans don't eat honey?

FFS don't tell me that bees are distressed / harmed / exploited during the production and harvesting of honey.

TandemJeremy - Member
of course they are Derek FFS man

i'd love to be so comfortably middle class that i had nothing to really worry about and i could obsess about the welfare of exploited bees instead

I also religiously drank coffee as a toddler, I remember being no older than four when I threw a cup of tea across the kitchen in disgust because I wanted my usual coffee.

Awesome 😆

[img] [/img]

i'd love to be so comfortably middle class that i had nothing to really worry about and i could obsess about the welfare of exploited bees instead

go ahead.

you know i'm right.

I was bought up veggie because my in my parents opinion it was the healthiest option. Thats what you do as parents, you do what YOU think is best. If that happens to be veggie, meat eating, vegan, fish only so what. All this stuff about lack of choice, forcing believes on kids is baloney (do you like what I did). As adults we're there to make informed choices for them.

So if the choices I make (or would make, early days yet!) as a parent aren't the same as you would make, you don't like it and you want to tell me about it, jog on.

Ditto the above.

Until such as age that they are able to make certain decisions for themselves, I see no problem with bringing a child up in line with your own morals, lifestyle, religious beliefs etc.

I also religiously drank coffee as a toddler, I remember being no older than four when I threw a cup of tea across the kitchen in disgust because I wanted my usual coffee.

😯

Pull the udder one...

I actually hate coffee now, not had it since I was a kid. :s I think I stopped drinking it when I was about 7 or 8 - by that point I'd grown to accept tea, so my mother stopped giving me coffee.

It takes a lot for me to reject cake (I'll even eat it if it's got sultanas in it), but banana and coffee is where I draw the line. Ugh.

My Mum used to make me eat sliced banana Sarnies.

I shudder still.

Still, she also made me eat Carnation milk, longley farm yoghurt, gooseberry pie and Dixons ice cream - I can only eat these brands/'type'. I can't stand any other ice cream! 😀

I had a sliced banana butty with sugar on for my dinner today. Full fat maragarine as well. A pork pie was considered but it would have meant walking the mean streets of Salford to get one. I decided against it.