[Closed] Idealism, consumerism, modern life

I'm thinking of buying a van or narrow boat to live in and finding a better work/life balance.
I've only done a few years of corporate work and I'm sick of it.
I'm not very materialistic- the only fancy things I own is bikes.
If I can fit a couple bikes in a boat or van, I think that'll work for me.

My friends been living in his van for 3 years. He does odd jobs here and there wherever he is and surfs the rest of the time. He mainly goes to Spain and France. He loves life. He worked out that he needs £5k a year to live 'comfortably'.

yes, I am planning on living in my van once it is finished, for a while and see how I get on. I kind of look at Bryceland's life and feel envy! 😀

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-To-Free-Tom-Hodgkinson/dp/0141022027

An engaging read in a similar vein.

or Tim Kasser's 'The High Price of Materialism'

thanks Bill

Bit of quick maths suggests that I need to earn £15k to be 'comfortable'.
That includes everything and savings. I should be able to get a part time job (probably around 0.5 FTE) that does this.

Great post Sazter.

A few things I can contribute -

I spent nearly two years living in a tent in recent years. Not so much of a mid-life crisis as a mid-life awakening. My stuff was in storage and it was harder to come back to it. Depressing even. Yet two years later I'm still agonising over which 'things' to finally be rid of. The iPad and my swiss army knife would be the hardest, where it should really be my paints and brushes. I shall keep them all 🙂

Consumerism is a far-reaching sickness, there is no doubt about it in my mind. As we're increasingly defined by what we buy and wear - so we spend the hours of our lives attempting to buy these things. Where do we exist inbetween? And how do we relate to each other?

I'm with you Malvern Rider. I'm sick of sitting with mates at the pub and everyone having their phone out. Why bother being there..

How did you wash/iron clothes? Where did you shower? Guessing you were at a campsite.

I will try to say something more later, but in the meantime this thread gets a 'thumbs up' from me. 🙂

Malvern - I am getting rid of most stuff before I make the move to my van, I have already reduced my furniture to what I need for the short term, I will be storing some sentimental stuff at a friends, photos and the like, but I don't want 'stuff' to define me.

[url= http://vandogtraveller.com/ ]This guy[/url] is a bit of an inspiration for my plans. My work have a shower in the basement so I can use that once I move from my flat.

I do often wonder when I come back from a two week holiday with a small suitcase what all the "other stuff" in my house is actually used for.

But then equally I do wonder how much of this goes on...

https://xkcd.com/610/

Great Thread!

Sitting at my desk of my boring IT job that vandogtraveller is pretty inspirational.

Ive also ordered the Tom Hodgkinson book.

I've done a quick calculation and realised that I need to earn £100k+ to live comfortably

Excellent, thanks. FWIW yes you can change. I've made quite a few changes since getting into Mindfulness but its really easy to slip into old habits - e.g. being a slave to the phone - because your immediate environment is geared that way.

Kindle book ordered!

Theres a certain irony in casting away all your possessions to live a nomadic life.

Something idealistic really...

Fwiw , i spent a summer living in my van many moons ago. What is fun for a few weekends soon becomes tiresome when your doing the same thing as you were before but still going to work.

Different when your on the road. I mean i think nothing of touring by bike for a few weeks.... But wouldnt dream of selling all my stuff and living with what i can carry on my bike /pitch /strike camp every day, but i know folk who have

I often had dreams of ****ing off , reading into the wild put them into perspective a bit - as much fiction as it may be.

Then theres the flip side , id like to have family one day - do i want to bring them up on the road or do i want them to grow up integrated with society and make their own choices how they want to live their life, i want to have a stable family home for my kids to grow up in- and from there ill take them traveling as much as i can by varying methods.

I mean at the end of it all once the vans had it and you need a new one but dont have two beans to rub together - what you gonna do ? Do what most of the folk i met living the dream in nz did when their bus wasnt road worthy ? Park it up in a motorpark and live there for the rest of your days ?

I lived in a T2 for a year with Madame. We worked from/in it in France and the UK. Winter was cold and damp, and leaving it parked all to frequently resulted in it being broken in to.

I lived in a rally car on the office car park for a few months. The boss didn't mind as there was a project to finish. A lonely experience.

We lived in a room in our business premises for nine years. It became very comfortable with a shower, camping stove, sofa etc. Junior was born while we were there. No commuting was nice.

When we started a business we traveled around France on bikes to find a suitable town then camped in a wood while going through weeks of formalities before we got the keys to the premises. By the end it was late November, monsoon time in SW France, and every morning we had to break camp, load the bikes and head for the library or swimming pool for a clean up before meetings. People were very kind, letting us dry stuff on the radiators in the library and offering to store our bikes/gear in safe places.

And now we live in our dream house which wouldn't be most people's dream house but it's home, and a short walk from Madame's place of work. Looking around me there are three guitar amps, more guitars, a leather sofa with extendable legs rests, TV, hi-fi, computers, printers - piles of stuff. Which we are slaves to if you wish, I wouldn't swap it all for the T2.

.

In consumer society there's only two states of being.Envy or addiction.

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Two words for you, Project Mayhem. Who's with me ?

You need a bit of freelee the banana girl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlin_paradox

My dad did it in later life. Him and his partner would empty the house, put all their stuff in the shed and my nan's spare room and head off. They'd rent our the house and that brought in enough money to pay for the trip on a tight budget. They did quite a few epic journeys including cycling round the world. My wife has just edited the diary of his last (unfortunately very last) trip where they drove to the bottom of Africa in an old 4x4. Here if anyone is interested: [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B013J8DXJO/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr= ]Driving Dark Africa[/url]

If you are young, the idea of unfettered travel is attractive. For most people the attraction fades as you get older. Just a fact of life.

I used to have a house and a job and a fiance and all that jazz. Old cars, motorbikes etc. Then there was an 'incident' and a chain reaction of events...

Now I've got a van and everything I own in the world fits inside it. I've traveled all over the UK and Europe in it. I've got a beautiful, amazing girlfriend and we've had a lot of fun in the last five years.

To be honest though, for all the days I'm not riding around in the Alps, which is the vast majority, I'm sick as a chip. If someone offered me a tolerable job and a living wage I'd snap their arm off. I don't want 'stuff' but I never know whether I'm coming or going and it's exhausting.

Money only buys 'stuff' if you spend it on 'stuff'. You can also use it to buy time and adventure.

What most restless people need is a properly flexible job, IMO - freelance, contracts, etc.

Your posts sometimes sound like my life over 25 years ago, Sharkattack. You don't need a tolerable job, you need an idea for self-employment that will capitalise on all that you've learned during the van years and before.

Money only buys 'stuff' if you spend it on 'stuff'. You can also use it to buy time and adventure.

Very on topic...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/27/spend-less-on-stuff-experiences-materialism-experientialism

I am going to take from these responses that I just need to follow my dreams, it may be wonderful, it may be sh*t but at least I tried. I will be living part in the van and part at my partners flat whilst I get used to it all. The van will have good heating etc. I hope to get more bike time and outdoor time in the coming months then we both plan to head away for a few weeks/months to mainland Europe and see what happens. I don't expect nirvana but I don't want to look back and wish I tried. Life is too short.

You can live a comfortable life in the suburbs without selling your soul to consumer society. My parents have a good life but are very old skool when it comes to buying new things.
Chucking it all in and going to the other extreme of living in a van sounds a tad extreme.
A narrowboat with power hookup in a scenic residential marina, though, does sound appealing.

What most restless people need is a properly flexible job, IMO - freelance, contracts, etc.

I couldnt agree more. Too many people end up in careers they hate...because they are not suited to the concept of the career in the first place.

I am all for a simpler life with less "stuff" but (in my personal opinion) living in a van is not a long term solution.

You will still need money to pay for food, fuel, insurances and a number of other costs. It will mean that you have to work at some point and as you have no fixed abode, I would guess it is hard to get stable, well paid work? You will also be cramped, cold, wet, worried about the security of the van/bikes etc and I would imagine the novelty will wear off fairly quickly.

Yes it is a great adventure and worth doing at some point - I spent a year with a backpack and no real plans other than enjoying myself. It was a brilliant, once in a lifetime experience but not something I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

I think if you want to opt out of the rat race, the best thing is to spend a few years working hard at a career, make a name for yourself, get some good contacts and save some cash. Then get yourself a piece of land somewhere you like and use your savings/career/contacts to live how you want to live, you can try to be self sufficient by growing food, keeping animals etc .

If you live frugally, you could contract for 3 months a year earning good money and be "free" for the other 9. It also gives you some money to experience the things you want to experience and you can dip in and out of "modern life" as much or as little as you want. Its about working smart, not hard.

The above is probably not very well worded and just my opinion...

Just to be clear I am not planning on living in a van for the rest of my days, it is a short term way to save some money in my current job and allow me to travel a bit next year.

With all these ideas of less traditional lifetsyles/careers - what happens when you're too old to work and your income in the years before has been enough for subsistence only?

Genuinely curious, as I like the idea but struggle to get past the thought of what happens when the earned income stops if it's only been at a level to keep you on the road in the van?

self sufficient by growing food, keeping animals etc

If you think a house and job are ties you don't want, animals and crops are a step in the wrong direction. The only things I grow are fruit that is in season when we are around to pick it. Every attempt to grow anything else failed because we weren't around to water and tend it.

Friends have a small holding which he doesn't need because his wife earns a good income teaching. He has never been away on holiday and she only goes for a week despite having several months a year off. The rest she ends up working with him. They are slaves to ducks and corn.

With all these ideas of less traditional lifetsyles/careers - what happens when you're too old to work and your income in the years before has been enough for subsistence only?

Genuinely curious, as I like the idea but struggle to get past the thought of what happens when the earned income stops if it's only been at a level to keep you on the road in the van?

That's the question I always shout at the telly when I am watching the Kevin Mcloud living in the middle of nowhere series. What happens if you are too sick or old to walk the 2 miles to collect fresh water for the day.

On the flip side, having a job/career and spending more than you earn and not planning for your future gets you to roughly the same place - you just have less fun getting there.

If you think a house and job are ties you don't want, animals and crops are a step in the wrong direction. The only things I grow are fruit that is in season when we are around to pick it. Every attempt to grow anything else failed because we weren't around to water and tend it.

Friends have a small holding which he doesn't need because his wife earns a good income teaching. He has never been away on holiday and she only goes for a week despite having several months a year off. The rest she ends up working with him. They are slaves to ducks and corn.

Completely agree and that's the crux of it. Pick your evil, if you don't want to work for a big corporate company and be on that treadmill then this is an alternative. It is a different type or work but its still work.

"That's the question I always shout at the telly when I am watching the Kevin Mcloud living in the middle of nowhere series. What happens if you are too sick or old to walk the 2 miles to collect fresh water for the day."

theres a program on national geographic - i catch it at my parents now and again.

Its about exactly this, old folk in alaska struggling with the toils of being off the grid in their 70s/80s making the monthly 2 day trip into town for their only interaction outside of him and her in the wood hut for the month.....

**** THAT.

Having lived well out of civalisation in the bottom of a scottish glen for A year , im out everything's twice as hard as you think it will be -and while at first its novel. it soon grows weary. spending 3 hours of your week to go get the shopping (they deliver into the wilderness so long as you dont live up a 5 mile dirt track thats mostly tractor friendly - as in they refused to come back to ours ! ) , realising your out of milk and having to make a trek to the shop.

then the snow of 2010 came and we were walking 6 miles just to get to a road that may or may not be drivable.......for 3 months.

was a lovely place to be in the summer though and was the picture everyone thinks of about wilderness living - but you still had to go shopping at some point and collect the mail from the village.

I think you can be happy in a consumerist society without being consumerist and falling into all the traps that are set and without rejecting it entirely. You just have to decide what level of participation suits you, and stick to it.

It means living life to your own values which can be hard when other people can't cope with your ability to think for yourself, but it's very possible.

Self-employment or contracting helps me a lot - I can cope with the corporate environment so long as I don't have to belong and conform to it.
Walking more and driving less helps - it gets you out into the real world
Reading instead of watching TV or spending time on Facebook helps - spend your time learning rather than comparing yourself with other people
Spending spare time helping other people rather than shopping helps, you're making a contribution rather than passively consuming 'stuff'
Spend time with thoughtful people who share your values. If people you think are your friends prefer to spend time on their phones when you're out with them, do you think you really have that much in common?

Think carefully about what 'stuff' you do buy e.g. go for good quality shoes and clothes that will last years and years rather than buying the latest fashion. Buy second-hand so you're not just consuming new resources all the time. Learn to make stuff for yourself, especially food. Home-made bread is much nicer than anything you can find in the shops - and it's really not difficult!

I have some really nice bikes - riding bikes make me very happy and a nice bike is more pleasant to ride than a cheap bike. But my car is 10 years old and I barely use it. I spent £3k on my car and £10k on my bikes over the years - that seems like a better balance than £200 on a bike and a car on credit @ £500/month

On the flip side, having a job/career and spending more than you earn and not planning for your future gets you to roughly the same place - you just have less fun getting there.

And therein lie the western world's debt problems I think?

I think it comes down ultimately to whether you are risk averse or prepared to take a gamble. The wealthiest people I know took a gamble, failed several times but eventually did well. I imagine I will follow a more steady path, in the knowledge that the bank balance will never be huge but the risk of it being nothing will have been much lower throughout my/my family's life

I've done a quick calculation and realised that I need to earn £100k+ to live comfortably

Wow, how do you manage with so little?

😉

You can live in a consumerist society and not get completely sucked in by it all. You don't have to own a car, you don't have to keep buying a bigger house. You don't have to buy the latest gadgets / clothes. Plenty of middle aged hippies in my street (although Cambridge is not exactly middle of the road normal).

Hmm.. no you don't have to own a car, but they can really help you get a lot out of life. Like many things, it's what you do with it that counts.

Owning a car doesn't have to mean stretching yourself to afford a prestige car so you can sit in a traffic jam on your 30 mile commute to your soulless job, as people seem to think.

It can, but it can also mean keeping a cheap but decent runner so you can get out to the wilderness once a month, or road-trip across France etc etc.

You don't have to have the latest gadgets, no, but a decent budget smartphone is a great way to stay in touch with your friends and family cos we're always told they are what's important.

brooess - good points there! Especially about spending your time learning (rather than TV or FB), and volunteering to help others.

But, work / jobs aren't always a bad thing. I'm fortunate to have a full time job that is mentally stimulating, where I spend my time with a lot of great people, and in a small way contributes to 'social good'. Rather than avoiding work, maybe it is better to focus on spending your time on work that you enjoy, and provides other rewards than only money?

Other than that, it is quite simple - buy less, experience more! If we all lived just a little bit more by that principle, I think we would all be a bit happier - it doesn't have to be a case of "all or nothing".

I was recently asked what I wanted for my birthday - simple answer: time spent with the people I love, outdoors in the hills and playing on the beach, laughing lots 🙂 As the saying goes - "one life, live it ... now!"

BillMC - I have a copy of "the high price of materialism" from the library so will be reading that over the coming days (probably weeks knowing me). Looking forward to it. Too nice a book to take away with me for a muddy weekend of bikes though!

I definitely own 'more stuff' than I need but there is a balance. I've done the live in the car thing and it has helped me be better balanced.

I think it's possible to be happy and not overally materialistic but still living the 'regular' life. It's important not to over stretch yourself, be it financially and work/life balance.

I've previously worked in a field where all my customers were multi millionaires to billionaires and I learnt alot of lessons from them. Some of them completely overstretched themselves while others really knew how to enjoy themselves and had a good work/life balance.

I think at all ends of the spectrum you get people who simply don't know how to enjoy themselves and when not to fall foul of the social pressures of a consumerist society.

I think it comes down ultimately to whether you are risk averse or prepared to take a gamble. The wealthiest people I know took a gamble, failed several times but eventually did well. I imagine I will follow a more steady path, in the knowledge that the bank balance will never be huge but the risk of it being nothing will have been much lower throughout my/my family's life

I'm going to be honest here, but going travelling in a van for a year or so doesn't, to me, represent an idealisitc rejection of consumersist society. By all means do it, I'm sure it will be fun and a great experience. But it used to be called a 'gap year'.

I have a 1 year old child, a wife who is working part time and a mortgage I can barely afford. It is funded through a 50 hour working week of pure misery.

I find a good cry helps.

Kryton57 - Member

Excellent, thanks. FWIW yes you can change

My brother's friend sold his house , bought a motorhome and buggered off to Europe in the autumn of 2013. Him and his wife spent winter in the bottom of Spain and sent pictures of themselves sun bathing in January.
They now live permanently on a caravan site in Kent where they clean the toilets for a free pitch.
Living The Dream.

There was a Ewan McGregor film I watched some time ago and this quote always stuck with me:
"Our good fortune allowed us to feel a sadness our parents never had time for."
I think it's just about finding a balance (not that I think I've got there).

?? What Brooess said.

Malvern - I am getting rid of most stuff before I make the move to my van, I have already reduced my furniture to what I need for the short term, I will be storing some sentimental stuff at a friends, photos and the like, but I don't want 'stuff' to define me.

This guy is a bit of an inspiration for my plans. My work have a shower in the basement so I can use that once I move from my flat.

Sazter, the fact that you 'don't want stuff to define' you shows that it probably doesn't anyway. Know just what you mean - although my vain pursuit of less stuff and more zen is more a practical fight against magpie/hoarding tendencies. I could easily 'justify' a double garage full of second-hand bikes, bike stuff, art materials/art books. It would go someway to defining me as an art nut who is a bike nut. Or vise-versa. Or simply a hoarder. It's weird, don't (never have) covet showey-offey fast cars or branded clothes - yet will obsess for ages over owning a certain vintage penknife, torch or old bicycle. Also gadgets. If Ihad the money I could spend a fortune on lightweight camping stuff and cameras.

But after 'making do' for so long (and having no immediate plans to go lightweight trekking) - I'd now be happier spending that money on something/someone else. When I ran for the hills I lived on £50 a week, which is loads if you have access to hot water (kelly kettle) and cheap food (Morrisons reduced section) and - most importantly - kind people who let you camp in return for a few hrs work or even for free. My mobility was/is impaired by arthritis damage - so spent a lot of time lying down in a tent, doing exercises, overcoming pain. But it helped me in the long run. Helped me regain sanity, lose weight, reduce pains, become more mentally flexible.

I didn't have a bicycle with me so bought a gate-sized 90s Saracen Rustrax for £10 - came with free rattling B/B. It got me about. It also ameliorated some of my perfectionist tendencies about cycle maintenance. I (literally) let the car die in a field as had knowhere else to store it and relied less and less on it as money dwindled. It finally got to the scrappie in limp mode. I love not using cars, it brings adventure back to everyday stuff...and doesn't pollute.

Overall my getting away from 'modern life' was initially a result of personal conflict. Marriage failing, widespread mistrust owing to two successive insane/dodgy business partners, health failing, all not helped by prior commitment of 18 months of 18hr days to a 'lean' startup business that typically involved all day/night working indoors looking at a screen.

Something had to go. I didn't flee to the sticks with any idealist fantasies, it was a flight on a shoestring.

Needed to get somewhere away before my head blew a gasket. Planned to go camping for a few weeks in the winter but was gone for 18+months. Have since learned that less stuff and less business/marital stress is what I needed. Some people thrive on those things - not me. Am still working on the marriage - and it is much better 🙂

(Time spent on iPad is creeping up again. Need to watch that)

Of all modern life's afflictions I am convinced that addictions to computers are the most soul-sucking/time-stealing. Cars next. This goes for work and play. I am addicted to the internets. Needs sorting.

Now, about these boxes in the shed...wtaf do I do with this Batavus chainguard that is the wrong size for current chainring setup, yet could maybe come in useful should we ever move somewhere less hilly? Landfill? (gnot gnice) or the endless Ebay ad? We just keep on throwing crap away don't we? Recently moved into an old (medieval) cottage and quickly realised that they had zero storage except for woodshed and a few little shelves in the kitchen for jars etc. Underneath the filth and damp it feels nice and zen until our hundred cardboard boxes arrived.

Ye gods...I could get by with a smart phone, utility knife, two pairs of trews and tees, shoes, clippers, shower bag, towel, toothbrush, reading specs, one bicycle, painting box and brushes. That's all!

But... wait...would need phone-charger, cables, case, winter tyres, daylight lamp, spectacles case, helmet, panniers, locks, keys, tool-kit, touring bars, multitool, wet-weather gear, hi-viz, bike lights, chargers...Muc-off, GT-85, box of rags, floor pump. And somewhere to keep it all.

Every single thing we own seems to exponentially grow other 'stuff'. All stuff needs a supporting cast of stuff and a graveyard of boxes and packaging stuff. All this stuff lives in my head. Last time I walked on the Gower peninsula - seems it lives there also. There was two-foot deep of un-recycled stuff carpeting Three Cliffs Bay. Horrible shite.

Whilst living in a tent mid-winter would sometimes go to the supermarket cafe at opening for some porridge or the odd sausage sarnie. I could cook my own porridge or sausage at the tent but the cafe was warm and bright-nice! I'd choose a magazine to 'evaluate' at the table, then read it carefully, not to crease it, then put it back on the shelf unscathed. The magazine was (invariably) entitled 'Stuff' - usually had some 'shopped miss perfect on the front cover, displaying wares. Felt like reading a 1950s publication albeit with flashier graphics/typefaces.

Yet the song remained the same - ie an endless procession of sparkly carrots to make us feel *just* unfulfilled enough to dedicate our entire lives to earning/borrowing enough cash to purchase 'new improved' versions. And without ever questioning if we really wanted/needed them in the first place. Or if this stuff would ultimately decrease erode or steal away our time spent discovering anything about ourselves/our skills/our relationships? Living with less stuff is not necessarily idealistic, neither is living the life that suits you. Idealistic is living up to an 'ideal'. I now think it unwise to try and maintain a material ideal at the cost of never finding what it is that we are suited to doing. And what suited is in the past may soon change, for health or other reasons.

Alan Watts struck me with - 'what is it that you want to do?' I remembered being a kid and asking myself that question, yet at some point it changed to 'what do you want to buy'? And 'do?' became simply 'what can I do to buy X?'

*Edit. Sorry for walloftext ramble 8)

And what Brooess said. Agree wholeheartedly.

don't apologise, i enjoyed it 😉

had similar experiences in a way - not as extreme though. While working as a self-employed music producer, i had to pare down my outgoings hugely. Found it quite liberating; I didn't have any stuff so I didn't have any insurance (my studio is in a bank vault); i wasn't worried about my stuff being nicked because it was all cheap and crap, i couldn't engage with the consumer merry-go-round, etc etc.

one time i went into town to buy socks or whatever. had hardly been into a big town centre shop in months, and it was funny - i found myself coming down an escalator in debenhams, looking onto a shop floor absolutely chocka with bright spangly clothes, racks and racks everywhere, every variety. i felt like a bumpkin in the big city for the first time, like something out of a shit hollywood comedy. i found it actually a bit shocking - the extravagance, the knowledge that people would be buying this stuff for £20 a pop and then wearing it once or twice on a saturday night. which was a weird sensation.

i felt faintly reassured that i had drifted so far from the regular consumer lifestyle.

these days i have a job and a house and a coffee grinder. but i still ride my 1993 Giant 🙂

Malvern - that was a great read, I have been reading these posts and feeling a bit silly recently, it is now the time I need to hand in my 2 month notice on my flat, I have found someone to adopt my chinchilla and it is all starting to feel a bit real. And it's scary, especially with the doubters telling me I am crazy, or living a fantasy. Had a wee moment last night and this morning, my OH is being very supportive but ultimately we both believe that the sacrifices I have to make now will be worth it for the adventures.

Call it a gap year, call me crazy, whatever, I need to try something that is not this, right now, here. I need change and this is how I am going to change my life. Short term, long term, who knows, but I am going to try it and see what happens.

Now do I sell a bike or keep my fs and ht? Thinking a stop in Morzine would be greatly enhanced with my fs... but my bank balance would be healthier and my 'stuff quota' lighter with just one bike, one Hornet to rule them all.

Picking up on a couple of words you've used.

"sacrifices": why not good riddance to bad rubbish? you're not happy now right?

"fs or ht": one for you, one for the other half or neither.

"supportive": but not with you all the way. I've never seen any of the women from whom I separated geographically again. I'm married to the one who got on a bike and rode off into the sunset with me. Supporting you in what you do isn't the same as a shared dream.

"Morzine": unless you're hoping to find work there, Morzine is part of your old life when you want a new one.

If you're going to let go, let go, holding on with one arm will hurt more than hanging on with both. A proper break involves letting go of town, country, girl/boyfriend (unless they go with you), profession (unless you do it in a totally different environment/language), sporting ambitions and any other baggage that will hold you back or slow you down.

I will be storing some sentimental stuff at a friends, photos and the like

Isn't there a little bit of irony in requiring friends to be the corporate slaves and own the house that you're keeping your stuff in whilst you do you own stuff?

The wealthiest people I know took a gamble, failed several times but eventually did well.

Equally, there will be plenty of very poor people who took a gamble, failed and never did well. Don't equate gambiling with doing well, it requires a certain point of view/idea/ethic.

Edukator - Sacrifices - the main one being living in a van in Glasgow over winter. Not the 'stuff', I don't see that as a sacrifice! 🙂
OH has a hybrid and I took her mtb-ing once so far and she did not enjoy it, but have planned another try, so will see how that goes, but if it fails again I will probably take my ht and her hybrid so we can get about places and either store or sell my fs.
She is with me all the way, I meant supportive of my mini meltdown! 😀
I have never been to morzine, but was hoping to spend a day or two riding the trails just to see what all the hype is about. Suggestions for other places to ride in Europe are very welcome!
She is coming with me. 🙂

breatheasy - yes, but he offered and I helped him build his bikes and shed table, taught him how to fix bikes and he might join me for some of the trip so it's all good. He owns his house and is happy with that.
My whole family work in the gaming industry except me. Maybe this is my way of being like them?!

Morzine is in the northern Alps which have the advantage of being close to northern Europe but have northern alpine weather. I suppose if you normally live in Glasgow that's an improvement but I like being a bit further south. There's good biking in many places, we were (spectating and pottering about) at the World Cup Enduro in the Sierra de Guara, Spain last weekend, sunny and dry if a little rocky under tyre. I prefer somewhere with sea and mountians. [url= http://www.basquemtb.com/ ]This guy is nothing to do with me so it's not plug, just an idea.[/url]

Madame spent years on tourers and race bikes before slowly getting into MTB. Do really simple stuff to start with and she'll enjoy it. Ladies aren't often encouraged to race around muddy tracks on bikes as kids so have a lot more learning and confidence building to do than blokes - blame her parents. 😉

I'm still trying to work out why you want to be in a van while your OH is in a cosy flat but sometimes I'm a bit slow. 😕

Will look at places further south too, but I think I need to tick the morzine box too, just because I can.

Our first attempt at taking her MTBing was the green and blue at Glentress, she looked at berm baby and told me where I could go! Going to try and find something between a green and that then! I am also a lady but I was encouraged outside to climb trees and ride my bike more I guess. I am still a big scaredy cat and it takes me ages to build up to drops and stuff, but I usually get there in the end!

She has a flat, but she also rents out her spare room and the flat is not really big enough for 3, and it's not fair to bump the flatmate out on his rear because I have decided on a plan that involves leaving my flat. I will be spending about half my week there, it's just not going to be fair to just move in. 🙂 There is logic in all of this, deep down.

Sometimes I'm even slower than I thought.

That's ok Edukator, I hope that if you met me in person you'd realise! 😉

liking the cut of your jib o.p.
And Malvern riders post is great too.
Hurrah.

wtaf do I do with this Batavus chainguard

Send it to me? 🙂

NB this doesn't mean I'm brazenly materialistic.. I just fear for my work trousers every time I ride my commuter as ethical non polluting transport for daily life... 😉

one Hornet to rule them all

😀

Gah, just realised the above link to the Alan Watts lecture has a bunch of God stuff stealth-edited on the end.

Striving and searching for happiness in life will always be futile.
Whether this is fully integrated in a consumerist society or living apart from it all, you are always left with yourself.

Accept that unhappiness, discontent and emptiness will be forever present in your life in varying degrees.

Sazter, hope you enjoy Kasser. He invited me to 2 CCFC conferences in Boston and I introduced him to a Cambridge prof, they did mad battle and then became friends. There's a bit of footage of him online and he's over here occasionally, speaking at party conferences or working on green issues. I got frustrated in the end with Americans' reticence to talk about class and inequality which seemed to me, on an analytical level, like fighting a boxing match with one arm manacled.

Accept that unhappiness, discontent and emptiness will be forever present in your life in varying degrees.

This is partly why modern consumerism is successful, as it helps distract us from the existential void inside.

Saying that I do know some people who have dropped out of society and they seem genuinely content.

You don't need to drop out to be content. Get somewhere small but well insulated to live, get an allotment (cheaper than a big garden plus you can give it up). Wear your clothes till they're holey. Get rid of the telly. Ride bike more and car less. Spend more time doing nothing to let your brain wander and work differently. Treat your local environment as if you're on holiday. Don't eat processed food. Make stuff. You will find your powers of concentration and immersion expand considerably and your 'need' for consumer items diminishes.

Every single thing we own seems to exponentially grow other 'stuff'

This.

I'd love to get into windsurfing, snowboarding, paragliding/paramotoring along with biking. The thought of all the stuff that would generate and storing it/looking after it gives me the heebiejeebies. I content myself with biking and accept I don't do that other stuff.

I used to do work for a fairly wealthy couple with three kids. They had the most horrific double garage. Enormous but totally filled with hoarded furniture/camping/skiiing/ biking/ watersports/golf/gardening stuff in a massive jumble. It stressed me out just fighting in the door to get a tin of petrol for the strimmer.

Anyone want to buy a Tallboy LTc or a nice steel 29+ bike?

I used to do work for a fairly wealthy couple with three kids. They had the most horrific double garage.

This also now extends to the lower middle-class. On the estate where I live, everyone seems to open their garage or double garage on the same day in the Spring to have a bit of a tidy-up. I'd estimate over 80percent are no longer functional garages but monuments to the 5 minute wonder.

Which reminds me I've got two windsurfer, various sized sails and all the other bits I haven't used for over ten years, and won't because my shoulders aren't up to it anymore. At least every bike has been used at least once in the last year.

There' a fair bit of extreme stuff in the Tom Hodkinson book, which with a mortgage and two kids doesn't cut the mustard - for example being too lazy to pay the bills and incurring the resulting fines wouldn't work, although I don't disagree with the capitalist reflection behind the mechanics of it that he makes.

However, reading it and reflecting upon my start on the journey of mindfulness makes me realise I've achieved a change of mindset to many things he suggests and is in the thread. For example the boot- sale of anything spare in my double garage 🙂 , which resulted in the purchase of an easel/chalk board combo for the kids which we've enjoyed using together. I spent some time - whereas I used to wait until I could do this on my own - with my 6yo helping me mow the lawn and trim the hedges together. He really enjoyed "helping daddy" and we had some good conversations about how spider webs work and other stuff. We made pizza's last night totally from scratch with our near-3yo helping with the dough and both putting on thier own toppings, it was great.

So I'm totally convinced that in the pursuit of materialist objects theres a danger of losing the past skill, knowledge or learning by internet rather than practical experience. Again, he's bike racing in two weeks, so next weekend I'm going to teach him how to wash down, lube and prepare his bike properly pre-race.

Furthermore, I work in a materialistic corporate and I've finally achieved the Nirvana of not giving a toss about what it is my colleagues own, drive or have.

Its very refreshing.

BillMC - I am not 'dropping out' for good, just a reset break. I already reduced my life a bit, I currently live in a small flat in a renovated high rise, it is super insulated and eco-friendly, my bills etc have plummeted. I still have a tv, but it only gets used for the odd hour whilst I am waiting for people/things to happen, it doesn't have an aerial, I just use netflix. I only drive to take my bike to places otherwise I walk or cycle, I bmx the 5 mile round trip for work each day, this makes me happy as I feel like a kid every time I get on the small wheeled, pathetic braked bike! I avoid processed food and have done for a couple of years now, I enjoy cooking so that's easy really.

I see this next phase as just that, a reset for the last few years, a long holiday more than anything else, but along with the holiday part I am shedding the unnecessary and frivolous and learning more about the world.

I am happy, I am not seeking happiness, I am seeking adventure.

Sounds good. There are a lot of improvements you can make by simplifying things, cutting spending and avoiding/reducing debt. I've virtually given up buying stuff (26' x 2) and just spend money on travel. Hodgkinson is in a privileged position (bit of a trustafarian I suspect, he's now returned to London) but his book is funny, well researched and gives a few interesting pointers. Some of the US stuff on voluntary simplicity is so worthy and right-on you would vomit. But then making your own way is surely what it's all about.
Adventure can also be had on your doorstep. I once surfed for a fortnight in and around Phillip Island and quite frankly got bored. Alienating work generates a need for extreme sports but when the work is no longer there, adventure can be found on a different scale.

Re Tom Hodkinson, didn't he just move back to the big smoke?

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/tom-hodgkinson-why-i-m-packing-in-my-rural-idyll-for-london-9012338.html

^. Enjoyed reading that, and a lot of it rings true:

Some mornings I have driven 50 miles before I’ve even sat down to work. Far from being eco-friendly, the countryside can force you to consume vast amounts of fossil fuels.

And the fuel bills — oh my God! Our house has no central heating: we rely on an old Rayburn, plus log fires and electric radiators. While this is romantic and fun — the Rayburn is comforting, and there’s nothing like a wood-burning stove to bring joy and warmth to the home — it’s unbelievably expensive. The cost of heating oil has doubled over the past 12 years. But my income has shrunk. That’s a double whammy: our electricity, oil, log and gas bottle bill comes to more than five grand a year, which officially puts us in fuel poverty. We’re actually looking forward to living in a smaller house with much lower energy bills.

After living in this old cottage for just three weeks have discovered is already cold enough to get through half a bag of coal a night. Even with oil prices low it doesn't make me happy to think of the thousands of litres projected for the winter. We have used stupid fuel just driving for groceries, getting madam to the useless, slackadaisical rural GP and also flat-hunting for somewhere more suitable/healthy. Looking forward to being nearer the town so that all groceries are retrieved by foot or bicycle, and double-glazing keeps the fuel bills manageable. Two moves in a month means that we have already downsized posessions on account of practicality/space. Looking fwd to a kitchen that is warm so can continue our plans of cooking all our own food 🙂

Malvern, I agree, I lived in a lovely flat in a converted mansion in the style of a castle a couple of years ago. I t was beautiful, the views were stunning and I planned on getting out on my bike and exploring the surrounding area. The reality was I never had time to ride, I spent my free time commuting, the castle was draughty and the calor gas tanks in the garden meant fuel was extortionate. I have some brilliant memories of the summer there and some nice photographs but I do not miss living there! My high rise flat is smaller, less photogenic, and has zero status quo, but it is warm, cosy, close to work and handy for transport, I would not go back to the castle life again!

I lived in a lovely flat in a converted mansion in the style of a castle a couple of years ago.

Friends used to live in one, their ensuite toilets would freeze solid in a good winter!

Tom Hodkinson's escape to the country seems to have been financed by book deals from the City, so not exactly easy to emulate. As soon as they dried up he came crawling back...