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My müesli isn't better or worse than lentils so why does iDave exclude grains, bread, pasta... ? Which would you rather eat, spaghetti or red lentils? Which is most likely to give you the runs in a triathlon?
In terms of G my spaghetti and müesli, and his red lentils are within 10% of each other.
Why exclude perfectly good carbs?
is it possiby because, as mentioned several times, its not a low GI plan, its a plan designed to take better control of the insulemic response?
Same thing, Shirley?
"The glycemic index, glycaemic index, or GI is a measure of the effects of carbohydrates in food on blood sugar levels."
- [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycemic_index ]WikiWikiWahWah[/url]
Wow - Jamie - man has evolved further than I ever imagined.
Indeed.
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Edukator - I reckon all those carbs are doing something... re-read all PhilConsequences posts... I reckon he might say something that could help you out.
This really is the thread that keeps on giving - thank you STWers 🙂
p.s. Jamie that is making me drool, even as a non-meat eater!
EDIT: not so much the gelatenous alien foetus in a can, however a tinned PB&J buttie 😀
[i]My Müsli contains those grains iDave excludes whatever its G value. [/i]
Ed, I think you're starting to bleed abit.
Selective reading again, tut, tut !.
Be a nice Troll and answer Capt J's Q
[s]After all, you did issue an ultimatum to others to answer your questions.[/s]
😉
Finally repsonded then.
Answers Q, with a Q though.....
😉
shut up jamie, i've had enough of your tomfoolery.
glycemic is a [b][u]different[/b][/u] word than insulemic DUH! so why does iDave keep telling me that i can't eat meusli if its the [b][u]same[/b][/u] as beans?!
is it possiby because, as mentioned several times, its not a low GI plan, its a plan designed to take better control of the insulemic response?
Think about that. Insulin reponds to blood sugar which is a function of the GI of the food you eat.
iDave is excluding carbs that are low G because they are high G. Go figure.
shut up jamie, i've had enough of your tomfoolery.glycemic is a different word than insulemic DUH! so why does iDave keep telling me that i can't eat meusli if its the same as beans?!
That's like saying monkey is a different word to wobble.
Check. Mate.
The low GI is only part of the picture. The diet is also aimed at cutting out grains, not for any insulin response reasons. I suspect you're view of the diet is based on eaves-dropping a few STW threads rather than any actual knowledge. You'll find quite a few pro teams greatly reducing grains in the riders diets and many riders are totally gluten free. You'll have seen a few in the last stages of Tour of Flanders yesterday.
My issue with your input Edukator, is that you can't see that perhaps your ideas may not be best practice, they're just purely based on the fact that you're lean and you read stuff once.
The info the French Olympic team produced, is similar to the crap I used to peddle because it was at the time what we believed to be correct. Some people are able to look for evidence to form an opinion, rather than to back up their opinion.
I even included info in 3 books and dozens of articles that I believe to have been way off the mark.
And I have also known what it's like to have to lose weight. I've been 3.5 stone heavier than I am now.
[i> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index
[/i]
Whoa !, check out white bread (carbohydrate rich).
Wunundred !
iDave - Member
My issue with your input Edukator, is that you can't see that perhaps your ideas may not be best practice, they're just purely based on the fact that you're lean and you read stuff once.
I've been waiting for this...
He is a geologist, iDave, he likes things set in stone.
Solo - Member
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index
/p>Whoa !, check out white bread (carbohydrate rich).
Wunundred !
look at porridge:
GI - 60
II - 40
[i]He is a geologist, iDave, he likes things set in stone. [/i]
Bawdish !
I'm so proud of that i might go and buy some cheesecake.
Capt.
Ed's favourite shop is the bakery.
He thinks we should all be shopping there.
[i]I'm so proud of that i might go and buy some cheesecake. [/i]
I thought it was a good joke, actually.
🙂
Again, it's not only about the GI but limiting grains. So some food that seems low GI is rules out as we haven't quite evolved enough to digest it with some issues. Ed being an exception.
My view is based on years of reading the literature on the chocalate factory shelves, Sport et Vie, and the scientific press.
Just what is wrong with grains, bread, pasta and mûesli with GIs in the 30-50 range?
Most people aren't diabetic, most people don't have gluten tolerance problems, most people aren't doped and in need of some justification of their miraculous performances to fob the journalists off with.
It's my Shamal wheels, guv.
I've lost 5kg since before my cancer, guv.
All these young riders are dropping dead with heat failure because they are training with colds, guv.
I'm over 50 because I've slept in a nitrogen tent, guv. (or spent two weeks at altitude).
It's down to my scandinavian/paleo/high carb/low fat/iDave diet, guv.
Why is what you peddle now any less crap than "the crap I used to peddle"? It's just another fad.
My view is based on years of reading the literature on the chocalate factory shelves,
Willy Wonka telling us to eat chocolate... well I never.
Again, it's not only about the GI but limiting grains. So some food that seems low GI is rules out as we haven't quite evolved enough to digest it with some issues
Now if you start using paleodiet reasoning then lentils are the last thing to eat. Man has been eating grains in large quantities since the end of the last ice age. Lentils have never been a major part of man's diet and we have never eveolved to eat large quantites of the things.
If this was the movies, Dave and Edukator would fall into each others arms and have a little kiss in a mo.
and the scientific press.
So you're ok with scientific press until it starts to suggest something you disagree with?
Your comments about excuses to cover drug use suggest you're actually not mentally capable of discussing this rationally.
Why is what you peddle now any less crap than "the crap I used to peddle"?
Because there is a weight of evidence discrediting what I had previously believed. You know 'evidence', that thing that helps us form rather than support opinions.
The low GI is only part of the picture. The diet is also aimed at cutting out grains, not for any insulin response reasons.
Now I'm confused, if not for insulin response reasons then how does it help with weight loss (as opposed to general health)?
I had a look at the earlier link someone posted to MDA ( http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-grains/#axzz1qsFzp8cu ) and it seems to imply that "carbohydrates elicit a physiological response that favors fat storage." But the idiet isn't supposed to be low carb either?
❓
No cheesecake in canteen
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Reading lots means you make a sythesis in your head. You identify the concesus, outliers and trends, and fads. Racing myself means I've tested a few approaches.
you're actually not mentally capable of discussing rationally.
Down to insulting my mental ability now. Desperate.
Now I'm confused, if not for insulin response reasons then how does it help with weight loss (as opposed to general health)?
I assumed that general health would be welcomed. Plenty of feedback from iDave dieters is that they not only lose weight but feel healthier, have lower BP, cholesterol, reduced eczema/asthma and so on.
Linking the iDave diet to covers for avoiding accusations of doping by journalists seems a little more desperate Ed.
look at how GOD DAMN SEXY he is dave, why would you insult such a fine example of a man?
edukator, do you really race yourself? i hear you can go blind if you do it too much!
why did the fish race himself?
because he ate muesli and was able to without needing the toilet too often. and remember that folks, it might save your life some day x
I've just read an article on MSN saying how exercise boosts your brain functionality. This thread is contradictory.
*excluding Phil he's gotten way more cleverer since he's been exersizing.
If you're worried about
BP, cholesterol, reduced eczema/asthma
then the mediterranean diet is the obvious choice, complete with dunking bread in olive oil, something I often do. Should I post up my last blood test results too?
[i]Why is what you peddle now any less crap than "the crap I used to peddle"? It's just another fad. [/i]
Of course the future holds yet more discoverys for human kind.
But the point is, we are, well most of us are, moving along with the times.
I think Dr Lustig did a good job in the video," Sugar the bitter truth " of describing how we got to where we are today, and that what we thought we knew, what we thought was Ok, might need reassessing.
Ed. You're a bakery fan, as you admit earlier on this thread.
So I'm amazed you haven't posted on the issues around phytate, lectin, gluten.
Furthermore..
[i]most people don't have gluten tolerance problems[/i]
Just because your body can tolerate the consumption of a food type.
Doesn't mean that food type is actually doing you any good.
Edukator - Member
Reading lots means you make a sythesis in your head. You identify the concesus, outliers and trends, and fads.
I suspect some people called the theory continental drift another fad.
I assumed that general health would be welcomed. Plenty of feedback from iDave dieters is that they not only lose weight but feel healthier, have lower BP, cholesterol, reduced eczema/asthma and so on.
Is the underlying issue here the fact that you've put this diet out there and it seems to work for many people, but you don't explain the underlying principles behind it alongside the specific rules, hence the endless debates?
Right.
Serious and genuine question time.
Obesity didn't use to be a problem. Granted, more people had manual jobs but they also ate bread and spuds... these were the staples of the British diet if I'm not mistaken.
How does that work then?
[i]Right.
Serious and genuine question time.
Obesity didn't use to be a problem. Granted, more people had manual jobs but they also ate bread and spuds... these were the staples of the British diet if I'm not mistaken.
How does that work then?
[/i]
I think you'll find that as a proportion of the amount of time Man has been eating.
Consuming grain derived food is a relatively new thing, which emerged with the arrival of farming / agriculture.
😉
a "hypothesis" Captjon. To be tested. The iDave diet is very much at the test stage, how much of it will accepted as "best fit theory" only time will tell. I'll be very surprised if eliminating grains, bread and pasta becomes main stream.
That's irrelevant. Why weren't they all obese in the 60's?
[i]I'll be very surprised if eliminating grains, bread and pasta becomes main stream[/i]
Of course. Theres big business in supplying grain.
😉
[i]That's irrelevant. Why weren't they all obese in the 60's?[/i]
Because they weren't told that fat was bad and fat wasn't replaced with sugar.
Oh !, and don't forget the boom in processed, covnenience food.
😉
Presumably because people weren't eating much sugar or "highly refined flour".
Because they weren't told that fat was bad and fat wasn't replaced with sugar.
Oh !, and don't forget the boom in processed, covnenience food.
So it's not the grains that are the problem then? 😕
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Edukator - Member
a "hypothesis" Captjon. To be tested. The iDave diet is very much at the test stage, how much of it will accepted as "best fit theory" only time will tell. I'll be very surprised if eliminating grains, bread and pasta becomes main stream.
Is becoming the 'best fit theory' or 'mainstream' the only way to prove something works?
"Why we get fat" suggests this also explains e.g.. the Japanese eating rice but not being obese, they eat 1/4 the sugar and high fructose syrup the US do.
*Damn that Jamie*
[i]So it's not the grains that are the problem then?[/i]
Grains are a problem.
They bring their own issues, but are also used to produce food which includes sugar.
Its not just one food item which contributes to weight gain / excessive weight.
Several foods types contribute to this.
We've covered fruit.
I've banged on about grain.
I've been sent to the cooler for discussing dairy products.
Imo, Agriculture has a lot to answer for.
If you have problems with müesli I'd be very surprised if you got on with lentils and fatty sausage for breakfast
You'd be very surprised because you are arrogant, and totally stand by your existing knowledge without bothering to read around new information and evidence, apparently.
Racing myself means I've tested a few approaches
You realise iDave has coached loads of people including world and olympic champions, TdF stage winner etc. I would say that his direct experience is vastly greater than yours.
As for insulting your intelligence - he's just commenting on it. You really do appear to be a right pig-headed fool. Surely an intelligent person would take note of new views and evaluate them based on evidence?
God this is all over the place.
Been googling ( as you do when you've got nothing else to do) that insulin chart seems to say that some grains are ok, and that protien has an insulin response, and then I read that both lentils and wheat have been eaten by us for about the same lenth of time, so it's a bit weird that we're evolved enough to eat one but not the other?
I think I'll stick to small portions of what I want to eat rather than missing out loads of types of food
opened that thread about "spaff" not going near that again! 😳
muesli headed fool, he cant be pig headed cos he doesnt eat fatty sausages for breakfast
LOOK AT HIS DAMN TOPLESS PHOTOS PEOPLE, CANT YOU SEE ITS POINTLESS ARGUING WITH SUCH A FINE EXAMPLE OF A MAN?!
Spaff's ok in the idiet though?
emzs, you mention spaff in a nutrition thread...
*every day's a school day*
They also used to drink eight pints of beer a day - in the mines in West Wales anyway.
If you want to eat what we've evolved to eat then go paleodiet. Don't expect to perform well in triathlon though. I tried it and suffered. Our conclusion (the doctor and athletes trying the diet) was that hunter gatherers lived like monkeys and to some extent lions. Intense periods of activity followed by long periods of being sedentary or doing very low intensity exercise.
The daily routine of a triathlete includes hours of modertate to high intensity activity every day though - very different. Paleodiet might be just the thing for sprinters or walkers, triathletes we felt needed more carbs.
if TJ posted topless photos i'd be agreeing with everything he says online too.
why did the TJ cross the road?
to get to the helmet thread. and remember kids, wearing a helmet could save your life one day x
God this is all over the place.
Which is my point, maybe if iDave published an explanation of the logic behind his iDiet it might help...
Ed, you're going back to thinking the iDave diet is low carb. On more than one occasion I've stated that certain carbs (sometimes sugars) are fine before during and after 'some' events. Not all, events, not no events. And it's not paleo either.
Which all suggest that you have a rigid view about what it is and what I say - then ignore anything beyond that. Are you this blinkered about everything? Not convinced by interval training maybe?
is anyone else concerned Yeti is getting some work done?
[i]triathletes we felt needed more carbs.[/i]
Of course.
Nobody is saying don't eat carbs.
🙄
And... You think you're addressing top level triatheletes here ?, when you tell us all not to listen to iDave and to eat as much bread, pastries and pasta as we like ?.
arrogant
prick
pillock
pig-headed fool
Keep the insults coming, Molgrips.
I am evaluating iDaves elimated foods objectively. He made a point a bout insulin response. All the evidence I can find says that my grains, bread and pasta are low GI and no more likely to upset insulin balance than the foods he suggests. He then raises gluten which I accept as a valid point for people with poor gluten tolerance, that's not many. It would be nice if he were to recognise that many runners have a poor tolerance of beans and pulses.
Jamie.
Can you make post the excuses in an airplane type stylee again please.
Looks like the hamster is having a fag break.
They also used to drink eight pints of beer a day - in the mines in West Wales anyway
Are you hinting that what people used to do, may be subsequently found to have implications not understood at the time and that a change in lifestyle etc could benefit health? Could the same happen in sports performance? Could you one day consider that a long held view is incorrect? Has that ever happened in the field of geology?
so it's a bit weird that we're evolved enough to eat one but not the other?
It's not that we've evolved to eat lentils, rather that we've not evolved to eat either of them, but lentils are less intrinsically harmful to begin with.
Edukator - I'm calling you stupid because you're acting stupid. You're arguing with someone with lots of experience on the subject and who is very well-read. You have less experience and are less well-read, and yet you think you know best.
How is that not a stupid act?
It would be nice if he were to recognise that many runners have a poor tolerance of beans and pulses
I think we all understand that the iDiet is something we can try and see if it works for us. It's proposed as a plan that might well succeed where a traditional diet with calorie restriction. There are certainly dozens of people on here who will testify that it has worked very well for them when other methods have not.
[i]It would be nice if he were to recognise that many runners have a poor tolerance of beans and pulses[/i]
It would be [i]nice[/i] if you could get your head around the fact that white bread ranked 100 on that ^^^ GI list.
It might also be nice to have you acknowledge the links regarding phytate, lectins, etc.
[i]Are you hinting that what people used to do, may be subsequently found to have implications not understood at the time and that a change in lifestyle etc could benefit health? Could the same happen in sports performance? Could you one day consider that a long held view is incorrect? Has that ever happened in the field of geology? [/i]
Ha Ha !.
Ed.
You've just had your ass handed to you on a bread knife.
😆
Eliminating grains, bread, pasta... remember your list to eliminate pages back iDave. That is where I disagree with you and that is the root of this debate. The debate is extended by your view all carbs or not equal which is the point you started acusing me of knowing nothing about insulin response. Well you now seemed to have dropped that having realised that I do know about insulin and that the GI values of the foods under deabate are in the low GI categorey. So just what is your justification for depriving non-gluten alergic people of grains, bread, pasta... ?
hes not depriving them, he's suggesting biffers avoid them to aid in weight loss.
why did edukator cross the road?
to get to the bakery.
[i]So just what is your justification for depriving non-gluten alergic people of grains, bread, pasta[/i]
Errr. They can make you heavier ?.
You just listed a load of high insulin-index foods. So they are off because of the high insulin effect.
Oats is another matter. Personally if I need to snack and I'm out and about I do grab a flapjack. But then everyone thinks I'm a useless dieter so *shrug*.
[i]hes not depriving them, he's suggesting biffers avoid them to aid in weight loss.
why did edukator cross the road?
to get to the bakery.
[/i]
😆 😆
This is like a car crash... I want to look away but keep finding myself drawn to reading this bikkering...
🙄
Re GI and II stuff - they are the values for food on their own. I've just found an interesting paper which shows that meals - i.e. how we actually eat - and combinations of different foods will change GI and II values. I'm not going to read it all, but this stood out in my skim:
"The GI differences observed may be particularly due to fiber content of the meals, as foos with high-fiber content (beans, lentils) have a lower GI."
It goes on to talk about all kinds of complex stuff. You can (i think) read it here:
Here is a nice chart from the paper:
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As you can see, when combined with other foods, certain foodstuff greatly increase the insulin index of the whole meal. These are foods not allowed 6 days a week in the iDave diet.
Max.
Welcome to the kitchen.
If however,......
Bread GI 100, nah, which GI list is that, Solo? There are no links I can see on this page. [url= http://www.the-gi-diet.org/lowgifoods/ ]Here's one with numbers from the university of Sydney.[/url]. Bread is in the range 36 to 95 with wholemeal bread in the low GI category. Less than parsnips if you want to play the outliers game.
Capt.
Its also been observed that red wine with your meal can lower the GI value of that meal... (hic !).
White bread is often given a GI or II of 100 as the reference point for other foods.
Less than parsnips if you want to play the outliers game
Ah but the smart money is on glycaemic load, not glycaemic index, where parsnips come in much better as you'd expect.
Ed.
Checked your link.
Looks like it records white bread as, eerrrrr.
" high GI "
If this is a game, I don't think you're that good at it.
😉
it doesnt matter in the end how fat you are, james blunt thinks your beautiful!
Good link Captjon.
The insulinemic index comments in the conclusion recognise a good correlation of insulinemic index and GI (excellent in meals with protein).
Edit: your own link debunks using white bread as a reference, Captjon. It's too variable.
This is a thread of attrition.
TSY seems to have fallen.
Alas poor TSY, I knew him....
Kinda.
😉