[Closed] I wonder if she thinks it was a life well lived.

You guys ever consider that the world isnt black and white, good and evil? I watched the Benitio del Toro biopics of Che Guevara over the weekend. The guy was a fanatic Stalinist and loved organising a firing squad, but it is impossible not to admire the extraordinary gifts the man had. And he wasnt wrong about everything and neither was Thatcher.

I did try and start the thread about how she might view where her life took her and what she might feel about it (dimentia notwithstanding) - I think, more than Blair etc, that she polarizes opinion - it does become black and white.

Which can be simplified to: "Pursued political idealology beyond pragmatic necessity". Which is what is so depressing about most / all politicians...

Very possibly but (1) change is often hard without dramatic breakdowns, (2) society and knowledge follows the same pattern of thesis, antithesis, synthesis and repeat. Perhaps politics and economics was merely following this well trodden path at the time?

Binners. Go away and read abit on recent political history.

Are your opinions based on history books then?, or first hand experience?

I can see that going down well at the International Criminal Court
Right oh then !....
In your mind, Maggy should be on trial at the ICC ?...
RRrriiiiieeet.

Don't be an absolute plank

It all depends which end of her policies you were on. I, like most in the North West of England, got the pointy end. It wasn't a nice place to be.

I understand if you were stockbroker from Surrey, your opinion might differ somewhat

Use google and type Tony Blair news. How many do you see of him blood all over him, murder of innocents, enrichment? in the top hits?

- an article in the Telegraph about his vast personal fortune, tax minimisation and representation of oligarchs and oppressive governments: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/9136126/Tony-Blair-expands-his-African-empire-into-mineral-rich-Guinea.html

- a test of anti-plagiarism software based on a Queen Mary Uni set essay on the topic of "Did Tony Blair lie in making the case for military action in Iraq?": http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/03/18/that-third-class-essay-in-full/

- a story about the sale of dodgy Geoffrey Robertson's villa in which Blair repeatedly stayed, earning him (according to the Telegraph) the nickname "Tuscan Tony": http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertynews/9137006/Tuscan-villa-favoured-by-Tony-Blair-put-up-for-sale.html

[img] [/img]

TandemJeremy - Member: BTW - this place is full of right wingers not lefties.

Funny that, especially as they post so rarely. Hard at work and no time to post perhaps?

Very possibly but (1) change is often hard without dramatic breakdowns, (2) society and knowledge follows the same pattern of thesis, antithesis, synthesis and repeat. Perhaps politics and economics was merely following this well trodden path at the time?

I've no argument against the need for dramatic change, and it was certainly needed in the late 70s. My argument is against the pursuit of a particular goal purely because of political dogma. once the medicine has worked, stop taking it - unless of course you benefit from the sale of the medicine 😉

rkk01 - then we agree!

When she dies it'll be a sad day. I was neither a fan or foe. I just admired how she rose up in a male-dominated world.

....it does become black and white.

But why? All this stuff about having a big party when she dies and calling her pure evil, its just idiotic. A lot of us remember the end of the 1970s, sitting in the dark at home because the power workers were on strike again. I never liked the shrill language she used and the indifference to the effects of de-industrialisation on large swathes of the country......but she wasnt all wrong.

[i]with a massive bleeding hole in it that has never been repaired.

The deliberate policy of mass unemployment caused such damage to society and it has not healed yet. Hopelessness, metal health problems, drug abuse. The rotting sore that is the ghettos for the poor.
[/i]

TJ.
Thats such a skewed and misleading statement.
Which also happens to nicely outline what I can't stand about you lefty types.
You expect and rely upon Gov to wipe everyones backside.
In your mind:

Big Gov = Big Brov.
Tea and cakes for everyone.
The Toffs are paying.

Well, you're wrong and always will be.
Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Nobody is saying that Maggy got it 100 pecent correct.

As for legacy ?.

Nulabour's legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before.

Right 🙂 , thats it for me here.

[img] [/img]

But why?

That's the question isn't it.

All those saving up a bottle to celebrate her descent to the underworld* do look faintly ridiculous given her current fraility and the time passed since she was in power...

... but you just cannot dismiss those so strongly held views. Right or wrong, they are engrained. No other British politician in living memory (or historical record??) has been so comprehensively hated by such a proportion of the population

*As a committed atheist I reserve the right to a belief in HELL for this occasion only, and to look ridiculous and vindictive at the same time 😐

. I never liked the shrill language she used and the indifference to the effects of de-industrialisation on large swathes of the country......but she wasnt all wrong.

See that is probably a balanced view I could find myself agreeing with.

[
That on the other hand seems a tad harsh.

But then I guess the juxtaposition of the reasonable and otherwise is part of the appeal of this place

*As a committed atheist I reserve the right to a belief in HELL for this occasion only, and to look ridiculous and vindicyive at the same time

Fill your boots then. Athiest, but not a Humanist clearly.

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Thats quite a socialist idea, not sure that maggie would support such equality of opportunity, and how would it be achieved what kind of policies would be required to create this utopian meritocracy? Identical schooling for all, state takes all wealth on death rather than passing it on to the family?

Nulabour's legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before.

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world

Nulabour's legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before.

Have a dig at an old woman now, as she waits for god

Bloody long wait, that'll be...

I think Maggie was great. The best PM since Churchill although I wasn't alive for him. She had more bollox than most of the male population of Britain nowadays.

Solo - your ignorance of 1980s Britain seems astonishing. Troll?

Thats such a skewed and misleading statement.

As binners says - depends where in the UK you live. Come to the village where I live - the coal mine closed in 1986 - just after the miners strike. The adjacent coke works is still their, rusting in the middle of the village...

[img] [/img]

It's not just a rotting sore in society, it's a rusty sore reminding everyone of Maggie's legacy on the community

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Again, remarkably mis-informed, or willfully ignorant...
The jobs that disappeared in the 1980s weren't those of Govt scroungers. They were the jobs of hard working, skilled
workers. The "dole scrounging" lifestlye came after everything else was shut down

Nulabour's legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before

That statement defies credibility...

I dont mean to be flippant (I really dont mean to be flippant) but seriously who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner? Thats ultimately what the Miners Strike was all about.....was she really wrong? Do we wish we still had a couple of hundred thousand men working in state owned pits producing coal we dont want?

The best PM since Churchill

Love the rose tinted nostalgia. I agree that Churchill's wartime PR painted him as a great man (and he was likely the best man for the job that needed doing)- a closer look at his actions and published beliefs shows something different.

mcboo -

I dont mean to be flippant (I really dont mean to be flippant) but seriously who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner?

The answer is in your question if you look past your blinkers. Three letter word rhymes with lob. Whilst I would never argue going down the pit was a desirable way to earn a living, it was a job. Something Thatcher and her(Still seemingly healthy band of sycophants) didnt, couldnt and more likely wouldnt acknowledge. And mining villages and towns up and down Britain(mostly up)will probably never recover as result of this lovely old frail woman, her policies and attitudes towards the miners and folk like you going on about how brave she was...

So I dont meant to flippant{I really dont mean to be flippant} but Ill drink to her passing. Did I mention I wasnt being flippant?

it's a rusty sore reminding everyone of Maggie's legacy on the community

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

mining villages and towns up and down Britain(mostly up)will probably never recover

You could maybe understand it if it was economics that drove her decision on the pits

I dont mean to be flippant (I really dont mean to be flippant) but seriously who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner? Thats ultimately what the Miners Strike was all about.....was she really wrong?

It was all just a little before my time, so I don't have strong opinions either way despite the fact that I lived in (and still do) one of the worst affected areas of the country. I just find it hard to agree because everyone tells me I should. And the above has always resonated with me ... It's a very valid comment. Would you want to send your children down the pits? From the people I've spoken to there's not a worse job out there...

I'm sure if I was teleported back to the 80s I would dislike her. But was she wrong? I'm genuinely not sure.

who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner?

Mining - dangerous, dirty work, with a legacy of industrial accidents and chronic ill-health. But mining was a well paid, skilled job for very many people.

We tend to judge the dangers associated with mining against modern standards. The reality is that very many / most of the heavy industrial jobs were dirty and dangerous. Steel, shipbuilding, rail, all were of a similar ilk - but they represented the H&S culture at the time, not today.

Is it a good thing that few people work in those conditions today - No, it is not. NO people should work under those conditions today. Modern mining and manufacturing jobs should benefit from the changes in attitudes to protecting workers that we now take for granted.

The sad reality is that today, men are again scratching around in holes in the ground in S Wales, digging coal by hand for a few quid a day, outside of the former well regulated nationailsed employer.

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

Is the correct answer 'phone a recruitment consultant'?

Her hands are like a muppet's hands.

Solo - so the deliberate policy of mass unemployment she pursued did not do massive damage to society?

Presume you are referring to the miners and standing up to the unions?

Her hands are like a muppet's hands.

That's the foam that Fluck and Law used back in those days 😉

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

You are Norman Tebbit AICMFP.

Presume you are referring to the miners and standing up to the unions?

Media coverage / popular perception focusses on the miner's strike, but to do so in isolation is rather blinkered

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Those educated at eton as the offspringof th erich seem to be ever so much luckier than those borne in poverty.....any idea why that might be.

Wealth confers many advantages and luck [ and even more saddly in many cases actuall skill and ability] make no difference.

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

Is the correct answer 'phone a recruitment consultant'?

Those educated at eton as the offspringof th erich seem to be ever so much luckier than those borne in poverty.....any idea why that might be.

Right. So everyone you know who is wealthy went to Eton/Marlborough etc etc?

I know a few good blokes who made it (better than me) in life and they most certainly aren't ex-Public school boys. They were/are just more successful.

Where theres 'muck theres brass lad.

Sat on a bench in the park watching children play. Do you think "Well, I'm glad I did all that" or do you jsut wonder "What if I'd just spent more time with my family?"

I reckon she's probably thinking "where am I?" "how did I get here" and "Where's Dennis"

However, I wonder how many of those telling us about the evils of the woman bothered reading this, that came out last week:

[img] [/img]

what an evil bitch she was!

Bit different from scrawling in felt tip and misspelling the name of someone's dead son, innit!

Aye... she was the very picture of compassion, wasn't she?

[i]Is it a good thing that few people work in those conditions today - No[/i]

Very sorry, but what most seem to overlook is that A LOT of people still do.

We've only re-located those jobs to cheaper, as dirty, parts of the world.
While we still benefit by receiving the goods from India and China.

[img] [/img]

This begs two more questions: Firstly will she go to hell?
And once there, will she close down half of the furnaces?

she was the very picture of compassion, wasn't she?

Born in in 1978 I grew up with her in charge, I'm sure most of you here did, and are around this age to.

So, how can you develop such sad hatred for someone when you were too young to understand?

I was too busy playing out my on bike.

I find it quite sad and pathetic. Looking back I'm glad I grew up in the 80's and 90's and not the 70's

Bit different from scrawling in felt tip and misspelling the name of someone's dead son, innit!

I think it's commendable that Brown took the time to write a personal note, rather than having some civil servant do it for him.

So, how can you develop such sad hatred for someone when you were too young to understand?

Has anyone compared her to Hitler yet?

[i]how can you develop such sad hatred for someone when you were too young to understand[/i]

I was born in the mid 1960's so 'came of age' under Thatcher.

I think anyone over the age of 35 is probably in the same boat as me - their formative exposure to politics was during the Falklands/miners strike/poll tax and under a government that, apparently, put little store in community or working for the benefit of all.

I dislike Thatcher and most of what she tried to do, I don't *hate* her - that's reserved for people who do truely evil things.

Will I feel it's the 'end of an era' when she dies? Yes. Will I regret her passing? No more than I would the demolition of a building that was part of the landscape when I was growing up.

Not yet. I don't think he deserves that though

Interesting to read about pit closures.....

And to discover that actually, pit closures were started in the late 70s by the labour gov at the time....

I have to agree. All those whining about how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago.

MOVE !.

[img] [/img]

teamhurtmore - Member

Funny that, especially as they post so rarely. Hard at work and no time to post perhaps?

IIRC many of the frequent leftist posters on here have the sorts of jobs where you don't have the luxury of many weekends and evenings off work. I do most of my posting here during the day because I am physically not at work, not surfing the internet when I am supposed to be hard at work. The same is most certainly true for TJ.

teamhurtmore, do you mind me asking what your own working hours are like?

Fair point binners. He did do that funny video about Hora's bike obsession afterall.

wwaswas - I 'came of age' under Thatcher.

😯

Anyone remember Arthur Scargill?

JW. Not at all. Very flexible at the moment - I am currently self-employed (start 06:08:30 first shift, then flexible during the day). Any time on here comes at my own expense. This will change soon, however, and all this malarky will cease 😉

phil.w - a traumatic experience 😉

I could have chosen that phrase better, couldn't I 😳

Anyone remember Arthur Scargill?

Was he in Dad's Army?

I remember that he had a brilliant combover.

[i]Anyone remember Arthur Scargill? [/i]

[img] [/img]

Now !. Thats a comb-over !.
😆

I know this may not be the most credible source, but I've been reading this:

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miner s'_strike_(1984%E2%80%931985)[url]

Miners and the unions sound to be quite sinister.
so far.
(haven't finished reading it yet)

It was a comb-over made out of brillo pads that had gone rusty

[img] [/img]

Rumour has it, he taught Donald everything he knows

[img] [/img]

his mates must've been good at getting at all that coal...

[img] [/img]

I have to agree. All those whining about how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago.

MOVE !.

Rumour has it, he taught THE Donald everything he knows

Very sorry, but what most seem to overlook is that A LOT of people still do.

We've only re-located those jobs to cheaper, as dirty, parts of the world.
While we still benefit by receiving the goods from India and China.

My post went on to say that they still do - even in the UK. Last years mine disaster in the Swansea valley was a good example. Small private pit...

I have to agree. All those whining about how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago.

MOVE !.

I did - I moved TO the former pit village... property cheaper and all that. My point wasn't that I was moaning about "how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago" - more that these communities are still suffering from the blight that was caused / inflicted by those policies. Many folks have moved on, got an education and better jobs elsewhere - all good.

But, the point being made, was that the damage done during the 1980s is still there, it hasn't gone away or been "made better", and that perhaps is one reason for the enduring dislike of the Thatcher Govt...

And to discover that actually, pit closures were started in the late 70s by the labour gov at the time....

One is certain for every single mine ever opened - it will close. Mineral reserves are finite, and every mine and mining town will inevitably suffer the decline that comes with dwindling reserves. The trick is to plan ahead for when that happens.

He didn't like dealing with a woman ...

Miners and the unions sound to be quite sinister.
so far.

the unions as they were at the time needed breaking, and Thatcher stood up and did it. Bit different from the slimy politicians we have had since, like Blair for one.

the unions as they were at the time needed breaking, and Thatcher stood up and did it. Bit different from the slimy politicians we have had since, like Blair for one.

Exactly. What do people think would have happened if we'd have had a labour government at the time!

To be fair to Brown, he did also scribble notes to the wounded when he visited them. Can't comment on spelling, mind.

rkk01.

Ok, if you moved to a place you think has been ruined by the closure of a pit, over 1/4 of a century ago.
And you're happy about it, then you're not complaining ?...

Yes, finite mineral resource. Tell it to the ^^ who are still compaining about Thatcher and the pit closures.

What I've learnt, reading that wiki page, is that it seems to be another story about Gov owned, loss making industries of the 70s.
Where men worked, expecting the Gov and the country to support them in their loss making jobs.
We simply couldn't afford it. Loss making pits had to close.

Funny this. It reminds me of stories about the gold rush in the US.
Where towns sprung up, the gold flowed.
But when the gold ran out, so did the folk.

So... why not here in the UK ?.
Once the coal ran out, or the pit closed.
Just move, if you have to, for work.

[img] [/img]

Days lost to striking had to be addressed.

So - you pit has been closed down, unemplyment has gone from under a million to obver 3 million.

Where do you move to to get a job?

That is such a naive view - I was in the workforce in those days. In 1977 I went to a small local hospital for a job - and was given one. I went back in 1980 looking for a job - there was a waiting list of 60 people looking for jobs there.

It didn't matter what you did - jobs were simply not available for the vast majority of folk.

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour - and the result is the social dysfunction we still have today.

think Bob Crow and the hassle he causes - then multiple it several times and give him more power (and hair) : and then you get close to Arthur Scargill...

TandemJeremy - Member: jobs were simply not available for the vast majority of folk.

Some truth in that for some folk.

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour

One man's "deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour" is another man's "introduction of important structural labour market reforms, subsequently copied by other nations"

Truth probably somewhere in the middle.

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour

Ignore him

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour - and the result is the social dysfunction we still have today.

Thatchers government encouraged Nissan, Honda, etc into this country - which proved that British workers are capable of producing decent quality cars.

Why couldn't they under Leyland and Rover prior to Honda? Nothing to do with the bolshy unions of the time. I think the unions and jerks like Scargill deserve all the blame for that era.

globalisation, easy immigration, outsourcing everything to the far east, slack parental discipline and the elevation of child rights to the point where they all think they are untouchable has had far more effect at driving down labour costs and creating the 'social dysfunction' that we see nowadays.

Do you really think there is no link between government policy, mass unemployment and social problems so evident now?

Do you really think there is no link between government policy, mass unemployment and social problems so evident now?

not from the policies of that era - even selling council houses had good effects on most of the dump council estates that I have ever seen.

rkk01.

Ok, if you moved to a place you think has been ruined by the closure of a pit, over 1/4 of a century ago.
And you're happy about it, then you're not complaining ?...

Yes, finite mineral resource. Tell it to the ^^ who are still compaining about Thatcher and the pit closures.

What I've learnt, reading that wiki page, is that it seems to be another story about Gov owned, loss making industries of the 70s.
Where men worked, expecting the Gov and the country to support them in their loss making jobs.
We simply couldn't afford it. Loss making pits had to close.

Funny this. It reminds me of stories about the gold rush in the US.
Where towns sprung up, the gold flowed.
But when the gold ran out, so did the folk.

So... why not here in the UK ?.
Once the coal ran out, or the pit closed.
Just move, if you have to, for work.

Momentum - go and re-read my post. I have no complaints about where I live. It's a bit scruffy round the edge, but that's fine with me.

Of those "locals" (I'm not a local) that remember the miners strike, some are glad to see the back of the unions, long rakes of coal trucks and a lifestyle revolving around a dangerous and dirty industry.

Others are still deeply bitter about the 80s and the impact that decade had on their communities - Individually they may (or may not) have moved on to better things. COLLECTIVELY, they remain very bitter towards a distant Govt that had scant regard for the people on the receiving end of their policies.

My post wasn't to "complain" or whinge about the devastation of the coal filed.

Just to point out to those in other parts of the country that the damage inflicted was very deep and has been very long-lasting.

You're also wrong on the economics.

I'm a mining geologist by training. Coldly and dispassionately put - the biggest scandal of Thatcher's coal policy was the SQUANDERING of the UK's mineral resource. In mining, the economics of production are dependent on todays price. But tomorrow's price might be higher.

The big international mining companies will mothball mines until proces rise - which they do - back to the finite nature of natural resources...

Why couldn't they under Leyland and Rover prior to Honda? Nothing to do with the bolshy unions of the time. I think the unions and jerks like Scargill [b]deserve all the blame[/b] for that era.

Really, that's very short sighted - do you actually believe this??

Did the unions design the Morris Marina or Austin Allegro??
British industry as a whole - unions, management, particularly the antiquated infrastructure, was in a huge post-war rut.

The whole thing needed a huge kick up the ass, and vitally investment in new modern plant and equipment.

Management with no vision
Workforce / unions with no interest in modernising working practices
Investment - not available to finance the required modernisation

The unions should properly take part of the blame. Working practices were unsustainable - but to solely blame unions is an utterly one-sided and flawed view

To be fair though, management did commision the redesign of the Allegro and Marina so you got exactly the same car but with square headlights.

[i]the biggest scandal of Thatcher's coal policy was the SQUANDERING of the UK's mineral resource. [b]In mining, the economics of production are dependent on todays price. But tomorrow's price might be higher.[/b][/i]

Thats fine.
But its a gamble for a private sector company to take.
Not for a government to take, while employing people at a loss.

I did read your post.
I wasn't saying your were complaining about your choice to live there.
Obviously you are not.
But you have remarked on the scruffyness of the relics from a past era.
Where, as an echo from WW2, the coal industry was nationalised.
By the 70s, the cost of maintaining a nationalised coal mining industry was costing us as a nation.
Financially and democratically.

Who were the unions to think that they could topple UK governments ?.

If your pit closed.
You moved, you found work else where, doing something else.
Whoever said life is fair or equal ?.
So why try to force it to be.

Life for every person on earth will never be fair or equal.

Stealing someone's things is not fair so I assume we just shrug and say who said life was fair why force it etc
its a specious argument.

If your pit closed.
You moved, you found work else where, doing something else.

Where towns sprung up, the gold flowed.
But when the gold ran out, so did the folk.

But its a gamble for a private sector company to take.
Not for a government to take, while employing people at a loss.