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What it does is help with one of the big drawbacks of wind power - intermittent supply and also reduces peak demand so reduces the amount of generation needed in total
We got rather sidetracked to argueing about minutiae of this and a long way from the orginal point. Where the OP had a basically fallacy - the reason that the windfarms were paid to not produce was the failure of the interconnect
I've got them in my home but the street lights outside are providing much less yellow light from many more watts
Small point, but those orange street lights are actually insanely efficient. Much more so than typical LED lamps.
[url= http://www.newledlight.com.cn/news/Comparison-between-LED-Lamp-High-Pressure-Sodium-Lamp-91.html ]LED street lights illuminate better and consume less than a third compared with sodium[/url]
Those are high pressure lamps. The traditional low pressure ones are more efficeint.
But this is off topic.
[url= http://www.solarledd.com/Solar%20Street%20Lighting%20System%20property%20Attribute.htm ]Low pressure sodium are better than high pressure but not as good as LED[/url]
High pressure sodium are what are in our street lights at present so if we are going to replace then LED lights are the obvious replacement.
Most are not high pressure ime. Only in some areas like town centres.
But anyway, not important 🙂
TJ - peak demand will be reduced by making people pay more for electricity at peak times. It will not come, in this country, from giving over our hot water tanks to the man.
Distributed generation and storage has many problems that have yet to be overcome at a practical level. Storage is not yet there. 2 way flow of electricity needs a lot more monitoring and controls and failsafes as well, so taking a '1 way grid' and turning it into a '2 way grid' is a lot to do.
I have no idea what sort of sodium lights are outside your house, Molgrips, but as you seem to have given up claiming they light as well as a lower rated LED light would I won't insist on you climbing the lampost to find out. 💡
Edit: and it is important. Even if we assume that all the street lighting is currently low-pressure sodium we could cut electricity demand for street lighting in half by changing to LEDs. If we make a more realistic asumption based on the current mix of filament, neon, halogen, and high/low pressure sodium then a 70% saving is realistic.
Apologies if this has been mentioned, I can't be bothered reading the whole thread.
Some respondees may be interested to know Sloy Hydro scheme is about to be converted to pumped storage, and two more schemes are proposed west of the Great Glen.
Further info can be found [url= http://kn.theiet.org/communities/powersys/resources/presentations/pumped-storage-proposals.cfm?type=pdf ]here.[/url]
P.S. I am currently reading up on all this for a dissertation. No way am I joining in here - far too many partially informed pedants 😉
Tootall - why not given it works in NZ, USA and RSA?
Its not a two way solution this - its just a way of smoothing peaks and troughs in demand by heating your water when there is surpus 'leccy
We do have a two way grid tho - if you have PV or a turbine on your house you can feed back into the grid.
What it does is help with one of the big drawbacks of wind power - intermittent supply and also reduces peak demand so reduces the amount of generation needed in total
If by "help" you mean it's better than it would be without, then yes. However if you mean (as you imply) that it solves the problem in any significant way, then no.
The trouble is, the wavelength of the variation in power supply by wind is a lot longer than the variation in demand. It doesn't do a lot of good heating up water with excess wind energy when you want a bath in 3 days time (no implication about the frequency with which wind power advocates have baths intended 😉 )
The original work cited in that Guardian article seems to have disappeared from the internet but if you read some of the other work by the same guy what he seems to advocate to even the load, in order of preference, is:
1) Export the spare electricity to somewhere it's needed
2) Store it as electricity (pumped storage, batteries etc)
3) As a last resort, store it as heat.
So the original author's not quite as barking as he comes across, its just that he's been Guardianised (if you tell them what they want to hear they won't engage their critical faculties). On the other hand some of his other ideas about wearing different clothing so that we can sit comfortably in our houses at 15.8C may be a bit more on the fanciful side.
Rio - I mentioned it as one part of a solution and as is the way on here we all get sidetracked into minuiae. Its one part of the solution - there is no one mega solution - its a multifactorial solution that is required. Its just a neat idea - low tech and cheap
If you are reading up for a dissertation you are completely out of your depth here, Waderider. Come back in 20 years time. 😉
Every little bit helps, Aracer. Rather than dismissing or dissing TJ's idea of managing people's hot water tanks as a means of storing energy why not accept the idea as possible if electricity companies and consumers are willing.
The biggest obstacles are consumer and political attitudes. Some people can't afford to invest in energy saving and those that can usually want a bigger, flasher car/Hi-Fi/Tv/etc. rather than a better insulated home with more efficient lighting and appliances.
Low pressure sodium are better than high pressure but not as good as LED
I searched that link, and couldn't find any mention of LED, Edu - could you point out to me where in that article it proves what you claim?
In fact if you actually read the figures in that article (and compare with the figures in your other article, along with what us LED experimenters know about LED efficiency) you'd see the opposite is the case. The article claims 200lm/W for low pressure sodium, and the examples give 168lm/W and 140lm/W real efficiency including ballast. That's opposed to the 90 or 110lm/W claimed in the other article (doubtless without any allowance for driver).
I think the problem starts with your first article - I mean the second one shows a real 92lm/W for high pressure sodium. Hmm, let's check the URL - couldn't possibly be any suggestion of bias from http://www.newledlight.com.cn could there? Fundamental flaw seems to be using a couple of photographs (not even both taken from the same point!) to "prove" the relative illumination of LED and sodium. You see as much as they might bluster about CRI (I'm not really that interested in telling what colour things are at night) the lumen is a really clever unit which incorporates the eye's response - more lumens is brighter.
Rather than dismissing or dissing TJ's idea of managing people's hot water tanks as a means of storing energy why not accept the idea as possible if electricity companies and consumers are willing
I've said several times it's a decent (if limited) idea - but are you suggesting it's going to go any significant way to solving the energy crisis?
The biggest obstacles are consumer and political attitudes
Indeed - you need to concentrate your efforts on that rather than on insignificant technological advances.
So, 3kW immersion heaters.
19M homes.
60GW.
How hot does your water get from a 3kW heater?
At 4.2kJ/kgK, if your hot water tank holds 200litres of water (=200kg) then, each hour it will rise in temperature by 12C.
If ambient is around 18C, and you don't want your hot water temperature to go above 40C (to avoid scalding) then you can go for just about 2 hours before the whole nation has to switch off.
So, there's a nice strong storm in the middle of the night. It gives up just before dawn. The nation's hot water tanks cool down just before everyone gets out of bed to have a shower, and all they get is cold water poured on them.
EDIT: if you get one of those long icy windless cold spells in the middle of winter then it's completely useless - you still need all your gas/coal power ready and able to supply power. Only now your £2Bn gas power station spends lots of time standing around idle, not earning any money.
OK, so it's a nice idea, and would be kind of neat, but I'd quite like to know how much modeling has gone into it prior to the press release.
(But separately, I wonder how large a flywheel would have to be before it could start being used to store significant amounts of energy?)
So they're going to heat my hot water tank for less than it costs me to do it by gas are they? Cause if they're not then they can keep their mitts off my immersion heater.
The original work cited in that Guardian article seems to have disappeared from the internet but if you read some of the other work by the same guy what he seems to advocate to even the load, in order of preference, is:1) Export the spare electricity to somewhere it's needed
2) Store it as electricity (pumped storage, batteries etc)
3) As a last resort, store it as heat.
Isn't that what gonefishin said?
Isn't that what gonefishin said?
Looking back and piecing together what's been said you're probably right. Maybe gonefishin = Mark Barratt?? 🙂
The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain. Perceived lighting levels depend on colour. Anyone that's used a variety of bicycle lights knows that white 3W LED lights appear brighter than theoretically more more luminous but yellower halogen.
Colour also produces an emotional response and sodium light is not liked:
[i]Conversely, very white (and consequently very cold) strong light, like a bright sky, has an energising effect, while strong red or yellow light is disturbing, for instance when you are in a tunnel illuminated with sodium lamps..[/i]
old and past it -the temp range is 45 - 65 C - so you never have no hot water. Its a system that is already in use so its proven. It takes a long time to cool down if properly insulated. So in your first scenario it will be very useful - thats similar to economy 7 water heating which has been in use for years. Still hot enough for a shower in the evening. I the second it will not be so useful
(But separately, I wonder how large a flywheel would have to be before it could start being used to store significant amounts of energy?)
I love this idea. Anyone want to work out how big and fast in needs to be? Would gyroscopic effects as the earth turns be an issue?
The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain. Perceived lighting levels depend on colour.
Let me edukate you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_(unit)
"The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the power of light perceived by the human eye"
Anyone that's used a variety of bicycle lights knows that white 3W LED lights appear brighter than theoretically more more luminous but yellower halogen.
Do they? I think you're getting confused by 3W LEDs producing more lumens than higher powered halogen - I've certainly comments from people who prefer halogen over harsher LED - ironically enough, the CRI of halogen is actually better!
Colour also produces an emotional response and sodium light is not liked
I thought we were bothered about saving energy, not people's emotional state?
Which is colour dependant. You need to dig deeper, Aracer.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve ]The colour sensation of a given light mixture may vary with absolute luminosity[/url]
Looking back and piecing together what's been said you're probably right. Maybe gonefishin = Mark Barratt??
Glad it wasn't just me. And given that, we can assume this from TJ:
I mentioned it as one part of a solution and as is the way on here we all get sidetracked into minuiae. Its one part of the solution - there is no one mega solution - its a multifactorial solution that is required. Its just a neat idea - low tech and cheap
is that apology gonefishin was after.
The colour sensation of a given light mixture may vary with absolute luminosity
But as I mentioned before, we're not interested in how pleasing the light is, or what colours things are, just how bright it is. Perceived colour doesn't change the luminosity curve.
"The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain" is fundamentally wrong.
We are worried about people's emotional state. What we want is people to be happy with the level of lighting. They want a level that makes them feel safe and confident they can see where they are going. White light does that better than yellow light so people perceive the need for less of it.
My quote is fundamentally right, Aracer. You'd have to go back over a century to find a definition of the lumen which was based on the human eye. The lumen is defined in terms of the candela which is:
Unité légale d'intensité lumineuse (symbole cd) - Intensité lumineuse d'une source qui émet un rayonnement monochromatique de fréquence 540x1012 hertz et dont l'intensité énergétique est de 1/683 watt par stéradian.
I'll accept your statement that low-pressure sodium lights produce more lumens per watt than even the best LEDS. Where we disagree is how many watts you need to provide an acceptable level of lighting using the different colours. The French were glad to see the back of their yellow headlights for example.
We are worried about people's emotional state
No we're not.
They want a level that makes them feel safe and confident they can see where they are going
Yes they do. There's a wonderful scientific measure of how well a light source helps people to see stuff. I think I might have already mentioned it.
White light does that better than yellow light so people perceive the need for less of it
For the same number of lumens, no it doesn't.
I'm arguing hard science, you're arguing hand wavy emotional fluffy stuff. Do you have any proper evidence to support your argument (which doesn't come from a site with "LED" in it's URL)? I'm kind of surprised at you, Edu, as I'd always seen you as a hard facts man, and don't think I've previously disputed your science.
Are you prepared to admit to being wrong about "The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain"?
Edit: clearly not. If you're not prepared to accept you're wrong about a fundamental scientific truth like that then there's no point continuing this discussion any further. You're wrong, I'm right, end of. Does this help better than my previous link?
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_(unit%C3%A9)
"Le lumen est une unité subjective dépendant de l'être humain. Elle quantifie la quantité de lumière perçue par un être humain "moyen" en présence d'une source de rayonnement électromagnétique"
i would expect to see in the future the reintroduction of economy 7 type tariffs encouraging usage at non peak times eg dishwashers washing machines spin dryers after midhight ( all simple to do via timed sockets) and if the tariff was circa a third of normal daytime most people i assume would jump on the bandwagon
in the long term its not the wind or the waves or the nuclear energy businesses that will have to make the biggest changes its the consumer..
The lumen is defined in terms of the candela which is:Unité légale d'intensité lumineuse (symbole cd) - Intensité lumineuse d'une source qui émet un rayonnement monochromatique de fréquence 540x1012 hertz et dont l'intensité énergétique est de 1/683 watt par stéradian
Indeed - the candela "sert à mesurer l'éclat perçu par l'œil humain d'une source lumineuse", hence why the lumen is defined in terms of it. If it was otherwise, why do you think they quote the frequency of the light source? You really should try the English language Wikipedia sometime though - it might not only help with making yourself understood on an English language forum (assuming your intention isn't to obfuscate), there's also often additional useful information, like the luminosity function curves in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candela which make the dependency of the candela on human eye response rather obvious.
I'll accept your statement that low-pressure sodium lights produce more lumens per watt than even the best LEDS. Where we disagree is how many watts you need to provide an acceptable level of lighting using the different colours.
Well done. The disagreement is because I'm using hard science and a unit designed to measure the level of lighting people perceive, you're using hand waving.
The French were glad to see the back of their yellow headlights for example.
If that's the best argument you can come up with you're clearly struggling. The yellow headlights were formed with a yellow tinted lens which reduced the total light output from the headlights, resulting in fewer lumens. Based on some dubious argument about reducing glare, not the advantage of one colour of light over another given equal perceived brightness. Not at all surprised they prefer white.
I'll stick with my definition of the lumen based on light energy in watts at a given frequency on a surface area, Aracer.
It's time for bed so I'm not going to hunt for the equivalent of this in English but diagrams should be self explanatory. [url= http://www.blog-couleur.com/?Qu-est-ce-que-le-facteur-de ]Ech colour of the spectrum has its own "efficacity lumineuse"[/url]
Ech colour of the spectrum has its own "efficacity lumineuse"
<sigh> indeed it does, and the lumen is a unit which cleverly accounts for that (by incorporating the luminosity curve), such that 1 lumen of yellow light appears just as bright as 1 lumen of green light or 1 lumen of red light.
You do realise that article you've just linked neatly supports my point (and shoots down your previous one - though I note you do at least now acknowledge the importance of frequency to the lumen)?
I'm still waiting for the admission that "The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain" is wrong - maybe we can move on when that comes.
captjon - just repeating what I said in my early posts.
TandemJeremy - MemberOh - and [b]there are plenty of[/b] proposals for things to deal with this - my favourite is local heat storage - basically ever house gets a hot water cylinder that when there is surplus eleccy is heated up - so you get free hot water. when it windy
What's the sigh for, Aracer? Same graphs, same history of science, what is the problem with the SI definition of the lumen? We're linking the same sites on light which is all well and good but it's not getting us very far. If you don't want to agree that people's perception of lighting depends on the colour of the light source used we simply won't agree however much you go on about lumens being the same for all colours (which is true).
White light reveals things yellow light can't: other colours for example. White light contains all the colours so any colour will show up. Take a yellow light, shine it on a yellow suface and it'll show up as a nice bright yellow, now what happens if you shine it on a purple surface? The light source is still the same number of lumens and your perception? It's not teh same is it, because the light is not reflected.
That's our problem isn't it? You're talking about the light source and I'm talking about how that light source illuminates. When we look at things illuminated with a sodium light they look poorly lit because of the absorbtion of the yellow light by anything other than yellow or white surfaces.
We've got a rippler unit on our hot water cyl. Most NZ houses have hwc as mains gas is mainly restricted to main cities and even in them not all areas have access to it. Therefore i would expect most houses have a alrge hot water cylinder. When you put one in you have to put it onto a separate feed from the rippler, this is what is controlled upstream and puts power into your hwc at times of non-peak load. I've got solar on mine as well and a timer so almost all the time it's working purely on solar and then at night it will use the immerser. NZ power is flat rate btw - no tariff based incentives to use it at night. We also have a mainly coal fired backups to hydro and wind and a lot of contention on the peak times as many/most houses are single glazed, wooden framed, badly insulated if they are insulated at all, non-centrally heated boxes. Therefore most power use at peak is for heating.
Tootall - why not given it works in NZ, USA and RSA?
As mentioned by the NZ resident - the gasification of the UK means we have far more gas water heating and NZ has more electric, so the conversion would be a tad expensive. They also have a smaller population with a relatively more modern (overall) grid. It works in part of the USA - not 'USA'.
The end of that gas will be interesting, with the mass electrification of all our heating requirements placing a huge increased burden upon the grid. Put electric cars in there too and you really make a big problem.
Most solar PV goes straight into the grid using an inverter. You don't consume it at home - all you do is feed the grid and the sums are done after the event.
Useful flywheels start at about 50kg and the size, including the casing, of a suitcase but a bit thicker. When I say useful, I mean with the ability to store a few kW of energy for a few hours.
Looking back and piecing together what's been said you're probably right. Maybe gonefishin = Mark Barratt??
Err no I'm afraid. To be honest it's the sort of conclusion that anyone with working knowledge of thermodynamics is likely to come to. That or something very similar.
is that apology gonefishin was after.
I think that's as close as I'm likely to get. 😉
I'm still waiting for the admission that "The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain" is wrong - maybe we can move on when that comes.
(the sigh was because of your first sentence, repeating your wrong definition)
I can't believe this degenerated into an argument about types of lighting.
the current mix of filament, neon, halogen, and high/low pressure sodium
Er.. filament street lights? Neon street lights? You what?
Does anyone else apart from Aracer have trouble with the SI definition of the lumen?
Does anyone apart from Aracer think the lumen is defined in terms of the electrical potential in the optical nerve? If you do, how do you think lights are tested?
Does anyone apart from Aracer have trouble with the idea that the colour of a light influences the way it illuminates things and how humans percieve the objects being illuminated, both objectively and subjectively. And that a white light source with the same number of lumens as a yellow light source will better illuminate anything other than a completely yellow object because other colours will absorb the yellow light?
Does anybody apart from Edu not understand that the SI definition of the lumen is based upon the eye's response to light?
Does anybody apart from Edu not understand that the SI definition of the lumen is based upon the eye's response to light?
Given it's only yourself and Edukator who are engaged in this spat, it may be that no one else sees it as pertinent to a discussion about how to store the excess energy generated by windfarms?
So, there's a nice strong storm in the middle of the night. It gives up just before dawn. The nation's hot water tanks cool down just before everyone gets out of bed to have a shower, and all they get is cold water poured on them.
The immersion heater we had removed from our house only 2 years ago could keep hot water at a useable temperature for at least 12-14 hours. So while I have some reservations about how cost effective it would be to implement this system in a country with such a high preponderance of combi boilers and gas central heating, I don't think retaining hot water at a useful temperature would be one of the problems.
Never walked through a town centre, Molgrips? Have a walk through your local town tonight and you'll find all of those types of lighting in use in both public and private installations. Local advertising billboards have neon strip lights in them (there could be a cultural problem here - "neon" in French refers to the classic 36W strip light), shop signs have neon-neon lights if you see what I mean. Surely you 've seen neon-strip street lights, I remember them in Brum in the 60s and I bet they are still used. Halogen illuminates facades. There are lights everywhere and not all are sodium.
Have you climbed your lampost yet? The one outside my house is made by 3e International and can be delivered with sodium bulbs between 35W and 250W. It's brand new and hopefully a 150W low-pressure sodium, but I'd have to climb up it to be sure. I'd be much happier if they'd installed a white 60W LED light.
In my local town I noticed a few LED lights recently. Filament bulbed traffic lights are thankfully being repleced with more reliable and economical LED lights and I've also noticed a few LED street lights in architectural applications in flash hotels and so on where image is important and the cost of LED lights acceptable.
Local advertising billboards have neon strip lights in them
And those are not street lights.
"originally based on" but not "defined in terms of", Aracer. The horsepower was origianlly based on the power of a horse but defined in terms of watts (or joules and seconds if you prefer).
Just as Aracer spent days attacking my statement that "there is enough hydro electricity in Europe for my level of electricity consumption even in December" Aracer has chosen to pick on one small point in one of my posts and spend hours attacking me by deliberately misinterpreting what I originally said.
"originally based on" but not "defined in terms of"
Are you being ridiculously pedantic, or do you just not get it (either seems plausible)? Have you actually bothered reading and comprehending all those Wiki articles you use as reference - I mean even the French language ones mention the response of the eye. I'll pick some bits out to try and help:
"1 lm = 1 cd·sr" - so the definition of the lumen is based on the definition of the candela - I think we both agree on that?
"The candela is the SI base unit of luminous intensity; that is, power emitted by a light source in a particular direction, weighted by the luminosity function (a standardized model of the sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths)"
"Like other SI base units, the candela has an operational definition—it is defined by a description of a physical process that will produce one candela of luminous intensity" - that's the one you quoted before which describes how to calibrate an instrument. The thing is, given the operational definition only mentions one frequency how do you think you measure the brightness of a different frequency.
Just as I gave up on the previous point due to your unwillingness to accept usage of electricity outside the domestic environment, I'm probably going to give up on this one due to your inability to read and comprehend wiki articles. Apologies to everybody else on here - the problem is clearly your complete unwillingness to ever admit to being wrong, even when the point under discussion is quite obviously outside your area of expertise, but something the person you're arguing with has actually studied.
So as to avoid misinterpretation, lets just requote what you originally said:
LED street lights illuminate better and consume less than a third compared with sodium
I'd suggest that LED lights actually being less efficient at converting electricity into visible light is quite a fundamental point given that assertion.
Of course if you're willing to admit that "The definition of the lumen is based on light energy on a surface not the electrical signal generated by the retina and sent to the brain" is wrong, then maybe we can put a little bit of this to bed. Or am I misinterpreting you again?
Just in case it helps in the least little bit
how do you think lights are tested?
Using an integrating sphere is the standard method (at least for measuring total lumen output). This utilises a meter with the standard luminosity function used for weighting of different frequencies in the spectrum, such that the output is a direct measure of the brightness perceived by the human eye.
Are you being ridiculously pedantic
It seems to be his entire raison d'etre....
Use some multi-layer insulation to make a jacket for your hot water tank ditch-jockey. I did so when I found my solar tank was getting warm to the touch and it's increased the time water stays warm from the 12-14 hours you mention to at least 24 hours. It's increased the period we don't need the immersion heater by a few weeks.
You're failing again, Aracer. You seem to have forgotten is was you that got picky/pedantic and rubbished my original comment on LED lights, refusing to accept that the colour of light is important in how it illuminates and is perceived by humans. You were the one that raised the question of lumens but refuse to accept that a human will not perceive a lumen of yellow light shone on a multi-coloured street as being as bright as a lumen of white light due to absorbtion of the yellow light by many colours. The SI definition of the lumen I used is fine.
On the previous point my level of electricity consumption leaves plenty left over for industry and infrastructure on the basis they make equivilant reductions in consumption. Should anyone wish to do the calculation I'll remind you that as a family of three our net electricity consumption for the month of December was 130kWh. That's 1.4kWh per person per day which dividing by 24h is on average 58W per person being drawn from the grid. Multiply that by a population of 300 million and Europe would need an average installed capacity of 18 GW to meet domestic demand in the coldest, darkest month. Now remind me of the figure you yourself gave for the current installed hydro capacity in Europe, several hundred GW right?
You persist in acusing me of lying or being wrong, Aracer, I just keep providing evidence I'm right.
Ha, zokes is here now too. Where's Zulu or Graham the nuke fan?
STW's great, innit!
You seem to have forgotten is was you that got picky/pedantic and rubbished my original comment on LED lights
Well if pointing out your "evidence" comes from a biased site and is clearly inaccurate and flawed is picky/pedantic, guilty as charged m'lud.
I've not even got onto that yet - still waiting for you to accept that the lumen is a measure of brightness as perceived by the human eye. Given you've now wiggled your way round to that as your sole point I haven't shot down (from what I can work out your argument was based on that dodgy article and you originally thought LEDs gave more lumens), I guess I should address it though - we'll start with a few points and work from there:refuse to accept that a human will not perceive a lumen of yellow light shone on a multi-coloured street as being as bright as a lumen of white light due to absorbtion of the yellow light by many colours
1) a significant range of colours will actually look brighter under yellow than white - lots of the power of white light is also absorbed by coloured surfaces.
2) do you know what the spectrum of a "white" LED looks like, and that a significant amount of its power is concentrated in a narrow spike, hence point 1 applies even more so?
3) given the lumen advantage for sodium over LED, you'd have to have twice the reflection of the "white" LED spectrum to get any advantage in terms of perceived brightness of a surface.
4) this whole argument is based upon handwaving and the evidence of a single extremely dubious and quite clearly biased article. Give me something where the photographic evidence is at least from the same viewpoint and has the same manual exposure setting (I'm assuming peer reviewed is too much to ask?), and we might have something worth discussing.
Use some multi-layer insulation to make a jacket for your hot water tank ditch-jockey.
That would be the hot water tank I mentioned removing 2 years ago in favour of a combi boiler and a wood burner! Fortunately, all this newly discovered shale gas will keep the combi going for my lifetime, and the wood burner lets me tick the [i]'renewables'[/i] box as well, plus I get lots of exercise from collecting the wood, sawing it and chopping it up ready for seasoning.
Once you get the shale gas, you won't even need the combi boiler to heat the water 🙂
plenty left over for industry and infrastructure on the basis they make equivilant reductions in consumption
You keep failing to appreciate that such reductions are a pretty big assumption, given the huge differences in energy usage to domestic.
our net electricity consumption for the month of December was 130kWh. That's 1.4kWh per person per day which dividing by 24h is on average 58W per person being drawn from the grid
There's another couple of your flaws - you're not only assuming everybody is also generating like you (do we really have to rehash why that's just not possible for everybody?), but assuming you only need to supply average, not peak (the times when you're generating and asleep in bed using no power might help the average, but don't do much for the peak).
I just keep providing evidence I'm right.
I suppose it depends what you mean by "evidence". I really cba arguing about this energy utopia of yours any more, so you can carry on thinking that if you like.
On led street lamps, the one outside my parents house has just been changed from a yellow sodium? lamp to an led, and the new light is massively brighter, they really need new thicker curtains in their front bedroom - it lights the whole room if the curtains are open. I assume they wouldn't swap for a higher wattage, so I guess leds are brighter.
8)
It's threads like this that make me wonder if it is actually true.
You know. As in that documentary.
About how the machines, having taken over, are now deriving all their energy from the heat and electricity given off by our imprisoned bodies.
I bet they love threads like this. Do machines have immersion heaters?
Ha, zokes is here now too. Where's Zulu or Graham the nuke fan
I was here all the way back up there^^^ In fact, I insinuated that the thread might be a bit longer, if a lot less worthwhile, if you and TJ joined in. I was clearly correct.