[Closed] I rarely engage with Armstrong stuff

The American, 47, was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles and banned from cycling for life in 2012 before admitting to using performance-enhancing drugs.

Presumably that's missing the word "competitive", it would seem harsh to stop him nipping to the shops on his bike...

So, he seems to have genuinely realised what he did wrong and is sorry. If we were to believe that, doesn't that mean we should forgive him, on a personal level? Of course the sanctions have to stand regardless.

This is a philosophical question btw, rather than my personal position.

That's just his therapist talking. Jog on...

I’m doubtful that he is genuinely sorry, he’s just talking about the most important person in the world (himself) and invited a journalist to record it.

Oh, I don’t think he’s actually sorry. But it is nice to have him acknowledge that it was the doping that caused the sporting sanctions, and the enormous amount of “acting like an arse” that likely meant he was persued so hard, for so long.

I don't think it's unreasonable to entertain the possibility that now he's stepped back, and is considerably older, he's been able to rethink what he did. Is that not common for people to do?

Interesting one.
Is it actually fair to demand that sociopaths be genuinely sorry anyway?

How many other convicted dopers have been made to pay £78m ?
Read that again, SEVENTY EIGHT MILLION POUNDS !!

I think he has been disproportionatly punished for being part of a systemic doping program.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to entertain the possibility that now he’s stepped back, and is considerably older, he’s been able to rethink what he did. Is that not common for people to do?

Haven't read the article - don't have the time to waste on that arse (see below) but nothing in the quote implies remorse, it's more "... if it wasn't for those pesky kids"

Is it actually fair to demand that sociopaths be genuinely sorry anyway?

Probably not but it's definitely not a requirement for us to accept their behaviour or their subsequent justification/whining just because they're a tosser

I think he has been disproportionality punished for being part of a systemic doping program.

I don't agree. The money was obtained by deception and the eye-watering amount is a reflection of the huge gains he made from cheating.

I can't believe people are still arguing about him!

No other professional cyclist has ever made anything close to the money LA did.
The punishment was proportionate IMO.

I don’t agree. The money was obtained by deception and the eye-watering amount is a reflection of the huge gains he made from cheating.

But name one other convicted doper (and there are many, many of them) that has been so ruthlessly pursued and punished, and made to pay back huge sums of earnings.

 

What the hell happened there, the forum is having a freak out !

I think he has been disproportionatly punished for being part of a systemic doping program.

How many made that much?

He may have been ruthlessly pursued, (or not, that is a matter of opinion after all) but how did he choose to behave at the slightest suggestion that he may have been doping?

How many made that much?

So, whats the limit? At what point do you have to pay back your immoral earnings?

 

Goddammit !!

anyone elses reply box gone all weird??

Given the number of sports people and other once famous people have declared themselves bankrupt and started again there were other options available to the cheating arsehole so I think what he means is it's helped him stay more comfortable...

So, whats the limit? At what point do you have to pay back your immoral earnings?

Generally it will be if it is cash efficient to chase it down and if the rules allow it (some sports wont and some contracts wont have it in there). Others have had to repay far lower amounts. My point was he had to pay back far more since he had earned far more.

anyone elses reply box gone all weird??

You have to hit the close tags button now once you have finished quoting/whatever.

You have to hit the close tags button now once you have finished quoting/whatever.

Thanks.

Generally it will be if it is cash efficient to chase it down and if the rules allow it (some sports wont and some contracts wont have it in there). Others have had to repay far lower amounts. My point was he had to pay back far more since he had earned far more.

Yeah I get that, my point is this guy has paid and paid and paid for his mistake and people still treat him with such venom and disdain. He was only one part of much bigger problem but has been victimized and hunted down just because he was successful. Yes he was a dick, but lots of successful sportspeople are, its part of what makes them winners.

Armstrong does not deserve your defence., He killed others careers, he brought the sport into disrepute like no other, he is a nasty arrogant bully and probably a psychopath.

I can think of no other "sportsman" that behaved like he has done - and all that money was obtained under false pretences ie fraud. He is lucky not to be in jail

Yes he was a dick, but lots of successful sportspeople are, its part of what makes them winners.

Maybe but he was the uber Dick. The Dicko de tutti Dicko. He destroyed people knowing full well that they spoke the truth.

Also it was no mistake - its was deliberate and systematic

But that bhc article was the first time I have seen him so clearly recognise that he is hated for being a dick and not for the doping.  Still happy to never hear about him again though

"I had class and dignity and treated people with respect, they would’ve let me off."

That didn't extend to the heavies that he used to get to intimidate journalists and have them removed from the room, though, did it.....

A "gentleman" eh?...shall we let Betsy Andreu and Greg Lemond be a judge of that? Anyone that dared speak against him was hounded, threaten with libel by his pack of rabid lawyers and then we had the whole cancer Jesus thing and all the fanboys who feigned after him and still pop-up to defend him. The reason that he got done for $78m was that he decided that defrauding a US Government agency was a good idea.

Verses: he's so banned from cycling that threads about him aren't even allowed on the bike forum 😉

Cancer jesus lol

He was only one part of much bigger problem but has been victimized and hunted down just because he was successful.

I'm struggling to see Armstrong as a victim in the fallout from the doping he benefited so massively from but I'm happy to agree that the systemic cheating should have been jumped on earlier and harder if that's your point. The only way to stop it is to make it really not worth the risk, and that's a function of likelihood of detection and severity of penalty.
Taking all his earnings for the entire period of his career when he was cheating would not be disproportionate. As it is, I gather he's sitting pretty with his Uber gains which begs the question of how he obtained his investment capital.

I’m a Lance fanbouy, has to be pointed out.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to entertain the possibility that now he’s stepped back, and is considerably older, he’s been able to rethink what he did. Is that not common for people to do?

+1

Problem is IMO he did obtain the prize money by deception, getting caught doping never happened but he did use methods to conceal and deceive. And, he was a bully and ruined others careers..

For those two points I’ll never forgive him.

But boy do I admire him. Stoic and steadfast in his opinions and still competes at the highest level in events he’s allowed to enter.

I get the feeling that not everyone here is reading the linked story.

OK, so take a look at this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at Doping histories of Top-10 finishers, 1998–2015 and Status of Tour de France winners since 1961.

Pantani is considered one of the Tour greats and held on a pedestal despite his massive PED use. Hell, Tom Simpson has a ***** shrine on Ventoux but was another high profile PED user. Too many other examples.... how many of them have been pursued so ruthlessly for their career earnings?

Trailwagger: do you think it's unfair that he was made to pay money back? Where do you get the 78 million quid figure from - he paid $5 million in April to settle he USPS litigation as far as I can see. And it's hardly like he's destitute as a result.

Pantani and Simpson? Well you couldn't have picked a more hackneyed pair of examples, but I'd say they both paid a slightly stiffer price than LA in the end.

I get the feeling that not everyone here is reading the linked story.

Yeah in summary, glad I invested some of my ill gotten gains into Uber other wise I might have to actually get a job and work for a living. Whats that a camera 😁

Trailwagger: do you think its unfair that he was made to pay money back?

No. But I do think its unfair that no-one else (to my knowledge) has been treated the same. Given the high profile of a lot of other dopers, their earnings from winning and sponsorship must be substantial (in the millions). How much has Contador, Schleck, Vavlerde, Hamilton, Hincapie etc had to pay back of their winnings and sponsorship?

Pantani and Simpson? Well you couldn’t have picked a more hackneyed pair of examples, but I’d say they both paid a slightly stiffer price than LA in the end.

Yes they did, but they were cheats non the less. So why are they held in such high regard, along with plenty of others (Merckx, Anquetil, Ulrich, Fignon etc)

Personality clash maybe 🤣🤣🤷‍♂️

Yeah, this popped up on BBC breakfast this morning on TV, in sports section!!
WHY?? not even a sports story, ex cyclist gets some money back from investing in Uber when it started. (and prob with money from his ill gotten gains) more biz then Sport. wast of time reporting on it IMO. Lance should just poke off.

Thou this did make me smile.

If Armstrong had never doped in his life, but HAD been ruthless and a bully and a win at all costs type of character would you still feel the same about him?

If he was the nicest guy on the planet but doped all day long, would you still feel the same about him?

If you ignore him will he go away?

If Armstrong had never doped in his life, but HAD been ruthless and a bully and a win at all costs type of character would you still feel the same about him?
If he was the nicest guy on the planet but doped all day long, would you still feel the same about him?

Let me try to explain this.
If you are a nice guy (pantani, simpson, schleck, Contador et al) you can dope, get a smack on the wrist and carry on.

If you are a ruthless bully (Jordan, Mayweather, Ferguson et al) then you may not have many friends but you are held in high esteem for you achievements and win at all costs nature.

Mix the two things together and you get the most hated man on the sports planet. Some of the things people say about Armstrong (albeit online from the comfort of their armchair) are downright despicable.

So he's got older and he's a changed man? Bullshit. He was an arsehole, and still is an arsehole. It was only the other year when he decided to get drunk, and drive his SUV home. The inevitable happened, he crashed, then he pins it on his then girlfriend who was not driving.
I don't about cheating in a bike race, it really doesn't matter, the rest of the shit he's done in his life maks him a ****.

How many other convicted dopers have been made to pay £78m ?

It's a good job his Uber share investment has paid off!

No. But I do think its unfair that no-one else (to my knowledge) has been treated the same. Given the high profile of a lot of other dopers, their earnings from winning and sponsorship must be substantial (in the millions). How much has Contador, Schleck, Vavlerde, Hamilton, Hincapie etc had to pay back of their winnings and sponsorship?

As I understand it, he hasn’t paid back his earnings because he doped. He’s done it because he defrauded US companies because of doping. A slight distinction.

To be fair, you would struggle to pursue Pantani and Simpson for financial redress........

Either allow doping or ban the dopers for life.

Armstrong has been treated disproportionately but I have no sympathy.

Now I would like to see the same level of reprisals on all the other dopers.

Either allow doping or ban the dopers for life.

It's been shown fairly well that the policy of life bans didn't work, especially when trying to catch the leaders - Like Armstrong. Rehabilitation where possible is by far the best solution. Allowing drugs is not an option.

But as this is now disparaging into another one of those threads can we not give the idiot any more thought and hope he just crawls off and isn't heard from again

Armstrong does not deserve your defence., He killed others careers, he brought the sport into disrepute like no other, he is a nasty arrogant bully and probably a psychopath.

Sociopath maybe.
Problem is though that he was essentially put there by the media. He saved the TdF from what had been a torrid few years with scandal after doping scandal. Riis, Ullrich, Pantani (who won in the year of the Festina Affair). The Tour was screwed.
Then along comes a charismatic English-speaking clean-cut guy with a nice heartwarming / heroic cancer survival backstory to save the day, allow the sport to access USA (whcih even in the days of Lemond winning it had never managed to do) and everything is nice again. TV laps him up, he's good for publicity = bigger wages = stardom. Lance was the first truly global cycling superstar. Others had sort of managed to be heroes in their country (Cipollini / Pantani in Italy, Indurain in Spain, obviously Merkcx / Hinault) but no-one had gone global.

Once you're there of course, alongside the adulation and the people clamouring for interviews & photos you get the accusations. In that situation, you have to defend yourself - it's not like the first person who says "have you ever doped?", LA is going to hold his hand up and say "shit, you know what, I have, sorry everyone, I'll leave the room."

The entire team, the entire Tour, hell the entire [b]sport[/b] was built on doping and cheating and the culture is rotten to anyone from the outside. But to those inside, it's normal. That in itself is an incredibly toxic problem, it's why change is usually only driven by historical problems with sexual & racial abuse/discrimination cases because a board of white males have been in charge and their "culture" has gone unchecked for decades.

It's been like that from grass-roots upwards for decades - all the young riders coming through. Here, take this recovery pill, have this injection.
If you don't you won't be able to help the team, if you can't help the team you're of no use to us.
All thsoe kids coming into the sport, wanting to make it big; being bullied and abused until either they doped or until they dropped out, broken and depressed. Or until they'd taken EPO and died of a heart attack aged 23.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/02/blood-doping-what-is-it-and-has-anyone-died-as-a-result-of-it

You only know about the Armstrong cases because it was so high profile and it was high profile because the media put him there.

all that money was obtained under false pretences ie fraud.

YOu can say that about any cyclist (or indeed any athlete) who has cheated. The problem is that USPS, Trek, Oakley etc didn't suffer as a result of Armstrong doping, quite the opposite, they did very very well out of it. There's a real knife edge here.
And once you reach that - well should Trek give back the profits of every bike they sold as a result of TdF publicty because that was obtained by cheating? What about the rest of the team that shared these winnings? What about the other athletes who got more money because the Tour was now a bigger marketing tool? Where does it ever end?

Even now, for all that people say "ignore him, he'll go away", websites and magazines know that LA stories will give them ad revenue. In many respects, he also saved a lot of people who wouldn't have had jobs in and around the sport had he not given it that publicity boost way back in 1999. Look at the bigger picture.

sociopath is a subset of psychopath and is just a milder form of the same thing - medical words go in and out of fashion - I don't think sociopath is used anymore

Rest of yo9u post I find it hard to disagree with bar IIRC one at least of the contracts that he had to repay had an anti drug / health promotion clause - thats why he had to pay it back. Defrauding by not fulfilling contract rather than cheating in the sport.

Yes he has been made a scapegoat to some extent but given the careers he ruined on the way and the fact he as it appears the worst exponent I find it had to have the slightest sympathy for him and I would like to have seen him going to jail.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to entertain the possibility that now he’s stepped back, and is considerably older, he’s been able to rethink what he did. Is that not common for people to do?

You forget. He's a pyschopath. He only does remorse if it benefits him personally.

A “gentleman” eh?…shall we let Betsy Andreu and Greg Lemond be a judge of that?

You mis-read that. He meant 'IF I had been a gentleman' but he is acknowledging he was the opposite.

Anyway - arsehole, yes, but I still think he's contrite. Some people cannot help themselves, but whether or not you are genuinely sorry after you screw up that's the question. Or are just pretending to be.

No way is he contrite Molgrips - simply incapable of it. That line about being a gentleman is more "poor me"

You cynical old git!

That utter bellend David Millar makes a fortune out of being an ex-druggy. He rolls out his doe eyes and like a puppy begs for our compassion. They should all be treated the same in my opinion. I admire Lance to an extent for not hiding who he is, even if you don't like it. I cannot abide that smarmy cheating odious pillock Millar for cashing in on his so called redemption. There are many faces of bad character, Lance's isn't the only one.

Molgrips - its because he is a psychopath he is incapable of contrition or remorse - these sorts of emotions do not exist for him.

I would not be confident in that diagnosis tbh.

DavidB - what would Millar or anyone else have to do to earn forgivness from you?

When I heard he benefited from Uber I assumed he was getting lift during races.

I'm no fan of Millar at all, too many people are too happy to lap up his excuses, but I have to take my hat off to you for sustaining that level of hatred DavidB.

Wonder how easy it is to find ex-pros who have that level of experience for media work, who you know were clean?

Not to repeat myself but where does this £78 million figure come from? As far as I can see he paid $5m to the government in a civil case...when he made $33m under his last team contract alone.

Even if he lost some crumbs along the way, he still massively benefited from doping.

Is it just me that thinks a demonized chap like Armstrong, and a demonized company like uber make good bed fellows.

Personally I think he gets a disproportionate amount of hate. Sure he's a nasty piece of work, but I'm sure many of the others were as well. Ulrich for example, prostitute bashing cheat but attracts far less hatred than lance.

As for David Millar.. I too am a bit cynical of the chap. Cheated, got caught cheating, now held up as a bastion for anti doping. In reality he played lip service to it, but if he really wanted to clean up the sport he could have spilled the beans far more than he did.

Molgrips – its because he is a psychopath

tj, c'mon, you're a nurse, and you know better than this, surely?

In what way? that I souldn't be making diagnosis on t'internet?

Its pretty obvious to me he is a psychopath and as one he is incapable of feeling remorse. Its a one of the traits.

DavidB – what would Millar or anyone else have to do to earn forgivness from you?

Easy not capitalise on his cheating as he already has. Own up, go away, stack shelves. Instead he sells shedloads of books, punters for thousands and probably gets BC funding to say "just say no" a few times to some kids.

Not to repeat myself but where does this £78 million figure come from? As far as I can see he paid $5m to the government in a civil case…when he made $33m under his last team contract alone.

Even if he lost some crumbs along the way, he still massively benefited from doping.

Legal fees, numerous other payouts along the way (he's including other cases, not just the one from the US Government). Possibly some of that sum comes from things like contracts that were terminated as a result of his confession as well.

Easy not capitalise on his cheating as he already has. Own up, go away, stack shelves. Instead he sells shedloads of books, punters for thousands and probably gets BC funding to say “just say no” a few times to some kids.

Sometimes, the best people to show you the wrongs are the people who have actually been there. Plenty of redeemed criminals who go into schools etc and talk to kids about how their lives went off the rails, how they ended up in jail.
Plenty of convicted fraudsters, hackers, burglars etc end up turning "good guy" to tell the authorities how they hacked the network, what the flaws were, what they looked for when scouting houyses. Singletrack and road.cc have both featured a convicted (and now redeemed) bike thief in articles about what locks to use, how to lock your bike etc.

Its pretty obvious to me he is a psychopath

rigghhtt, just guessing like the rest of us then 🙂

Sometimes, the best people to show you the wrongs are the people who have actually been there. Plenty of redeemed criminals who go into schools etc and talk to kids about how their lives went off the rails, how they ended up in jail.
Plenty of convicted fraudsters, hackers, burglars etc end up turning “good guy” to tell the authorities how they hacked the network, what the flaws were, what they looked for when scouting houyses. Singletrack and road.cc have both featured a convicted (and now redeemed) bike thief in articles about what locks to use, how to lock your bike etc.

I so agree with this. But that is not what he does. Try and get David Millar to come to your school/cycling club, try and do that without speaking to his agent. Those guys you mention rarely make a mint as a result. Millar lives in luxury, drives a mint car, hangs out with the "Monaco set". I know plenty about him via other channels. He's everything but the character you picture above.

But boy do I admire him. Stoic and steadfast in his opinions

See also Hitler 🙂

Do you think Millar's been totally honest about how much he doped crazy legs?

@crazy legs - source tho????

I agree 100% with TJ.

No other professional cyclist has ever made anything close to the money LA did.
The punishment was proportionate IMO.

and with this statement as well. The problem with Lance is that he really IS a psychopath. I mean, clearly I don't know him personally, but everything we gather from him and about him - from his words to his body language to the reports we get from former friends and colleagues - suggests that he really is one of those who has risen to the top precisely BECAUSE of his psychopathy, and the public (who sense this) simply do not want him to continue benefitting from it.

As I understand it, he hasn’t paid back his earnings because he doped. He’s done it because he defrauded US companies because of doping.

The UCI also changed the rules so they could use effective financial penalties. Not sure when that came in.
Ultimately though he was an utter arsehole who did his best to destroy the careers of anyone brave enough to say that he was a cheating arsehole. As such I do think he deserves a far harsher punishment than someone who cheated but didnt have the same effect on others.
Its similar (although obviously not identical) to how we distinguish between manslaughter and murder. Some poor sod gets killed but its the associated factors which makes the latter worse.

He does seem to be a bit dark triad.

And I'm not talking Chinese gangsters 🙂

The problem with Lance is that he really IS a psychopath.

He certainly shows some charastics of being a psychopath, but so do many driven high achieving people. But that's a long way from a clinical diagnosis. I would have thought some of the medical professional people on here would be aware of the pointlessness of internet diagnosis 🤔

Yeah but you can file that under "this is different".

Is it just me that thinks a demonized chap like Armstrong, and a demonized company like uber make good bed fellows

He gave money to a hedge fund not directly to uber.