You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Lord Sugar at his most pompus but true or false?
IMHO more rubbish to boost the ratings of the Apprentice ...hardly a good role model for Britain when were trying to move past a finacial services driven econmy.
So who's with Al?
I reckon he's finally lost the plot!
Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Sergy Brin, Steve Jobs, Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, they're all a bit more successful than old greybeard I fancy.
He didn't say they don't exist, he said he's never come across one.
Hardly pompous.
It is if thats your sole reason for firing someone.
'The iPod will be dead, finished, gone, kaput.'
— Sir Alan Sugar, February 2005
No, but he's got enough experience to know better than to make such a sweeping generalistion and that for a succesful economy, you need more than just finance and call-centres to prop the country up.
Patently false.
What is this 'ipod' you speak of?
he's a prick. i don't think we should worry too much about his opinion.
I come across plenty of engineers who are doing just fine!
Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Sergy Brin, Steve Jobs, Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, they're all a bit more successful than old greybeard I fancy.
Maybe because I haven't read the article, but I would ask, which of them is an engineer?
He fired the wrong person, at least Glen had some genuinely positive inputs over the last few weeks, unlike that girl with the ironed face or the Swedish guy.
Annoyingly I quite like The Apprentice, if only cos I can't quite believe that people like that actually exist.
The comments in that Telegraph article linked to above are pretty telling though. As a (chemical) engineer I've experienced first hand the utterly incompetent managers who could do all the management talk, who had degrees in business studies and management yet didn't have the faintest bloody clue about the job we actually did. Equally some of the chemists who had risen through the ranks to be lab managers etc really weren't great at management either so Sugar's comments have a grain of truth to them...
Jim, heck of a salesman but does he have any other qualities? Certainly seemed lacking in commercial acumen. The wrong man got binned.
Maybe because I haven't read the article, but I would ask, which of them is an engineer?
Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were engineers - Software Engineers.
CaptainFlashHeart they all started as engineers, engineering things that turned into Google, Oracle, Microsoft, and a little known site known as "the face book". Might as well include Tim Berners-Lee too, he invented The Internet.
crazy-legs: What we need to distinguish here are between technicians and engineers. Technicians being those that can do the techy stuff only.
If your a proffessional engineer (i.e. Chartered Engineer) then you really do need to be more rounded. And that is the main problem with engineering as a profession. There is no clear divide between the 'Engineer' and the 'Technician'.
Can't say there's a stand-out candidate on this years Apprentice, they all seem a bit weak.
And this bloke made a few quid out of engineering!....
[img] 
[/img]
Software Engineers.
Ah, I see. Not real engineers then. Thanks for clarification.
As the OP said - nonsense to boost ratings. I'm no expert on engineering or business, but it only takes minutes to think of examples - Dyson is the obvious one.
I work closely with - maybe - 25 good engineers
Taking any of them to a customer meeting is probably the most stressful part of my job [I have a tech background too]
You just don't know what they'll say next
😀
More interestingly, have any businessmen ever turned out to be good at engineering? I remember something about Lyons the the top guy at Jaguar being heavily involved in the design of the cars in the 50's and 60's, but I am not sure of his background and if he may have been an engineer before moving into management.
As someone who works as an engineer I'm inclined to say "so what". They are different skill sets although to use it as the sole excuse to "fire" someone from that TV reeks of prejudice.
Oh and Sir Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent the internet, and he wasn't/isn't an engineer.
Taking any of them to a customer meeting is probably the most stressful part of my job [I have a tech background too]
You just don't know what they'll say next
The truth most likely, which may or may not be what you want your customers to hear. 😉
Yes none of it is real
Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were engineers - Software Engineers
Lets all play nice - that can of worms has been kicked to death on here before 🙂
If your a proffessional engineer (i.e. Chartered Engineer) then you really do need to be more rounded. And that is the main problem with engineering as a profession. There is no clear divide between the 'Engineer' and the 'Technician'.
...[s]I agree[/s] see above (and don't get me started on chartered status again!)....
And this bloke made a few quid out of engineering!....
Technically brilliant, but as a business man he was severely lacking!
Anywho, the only thing about Lard Sugar worth a damn is his collection of expensive Italian road bikes 🙂
Ah, I see. Not real engineers then. Thanks for clarification.
Don't talk shite.
gonefishin - MemberAs someone who works as an engineer I'm inclined to say "so what". They are different skill sets although to use it as the sole excuse to "fire" someone from that TV reeks of prejudice.
Oh and Sir Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent the internet, and he wasn't/isn't an engineer.
gonefishin you should tell the Royal Academy of Engineering they've made a mistake
Berners-Lee invented the world wide web not the internet.
Dyson is the obvious one.
Artist/furniture designer - more arty than engineering methinks.
Don't talk shite.
Is that directed STW at large?
Glen claimed he was a 'Design Engineer'. I had the same job title at my ex-job. I neither engineered, nor designed, and I certainly didn't have his arrogance. Glad he got the boot TBH!
Anyone want to call me not a proper engineer, I'll rip their nipples off.
Well his degree is in Physics and as far as I can find out his membership of the IEEE is honourary so I'm still inclined to say not and engineer.
WAAAAAAaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy smarter than me though.
Software Engineers.Ah, I see. Not real engineers then. Thanks for clarification.
Well I spend my days working on a PC as an engineer designing things. Whether that's sizing the orifice in a relief valve or writing some code to make my life easier they're both engineering.
You're thinking welding, spanner monkeys in the local garrage, the elctrician who wired your house, etc, which as someone up there said, are better classed as technicians not engineers.
Whether that's sizing the orifice
*s*****
Surely every car manufacturer in existence was founded by an engineer of some kind?
Aerospace companies
Civil Engineering/Construction Companies
etc etc??
VW was founded by a soldier - a British one.
Well I spend my days working on a PC as an engineer designing things. Whether that's sizing the orifice in a relief valve or writing some code to make my life easier they're both engineering
Yeah, but you are applying the principals of strucural analysis/solid mechanics/materials science/thermodynamics/fluid dynamics/etc that are the key features of any engineering degree, using software as a means to an end - software engineering is something different, and of it's own right, that has (unfortunately, IMO) adopted 'engineering' as part of the description.
Every "real" engineer I've ever met has been a massive old grump with a big chip on their shoulder, and thinks that the world owes them a living. Maybe it's because most of the "real" engineering work these days is done by Indian contractors at a third of the cost; I'd be bitter too.
There's a woman on this year's show who's doing a superb job of channeling David Brent. It's a lad's mag yeah?, for lad's who've got a bit of dollar yeah? Does that sound boring - I don't know. Just an idea yeah?
Would be good to see Alan hit her in the head with a pickaxe, but I'd settle for a firing.
Helen should win because she's fit
end of
Artist/furniture designer - more arty than engineering methinks.
you don't know ANYTHING about James Dyson then.
He is very much an engineer - hence the very engineered look of his cleaning products. not really product designed in a styling sense. pure function over form
software engineering is something different, and of it's own right, that has (unfortunately, IMO) adopted 'engineering' as part of the description
Why? Cos it's easier? Cos there's no greasy fingers involved?
It's different, but then building bridges is different to making engines and they are both done by engineers.
Technician - follows instructions to get something fixed... like a car repair manual, or guide on how to install some software.
Engineer - has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn't work. i.e. milling a part to fix the car, or hacking the registry to enable the software installation. The engineer actually designs a solution for the problem.
That's the difference IMHO between technicians and engineers. And yes, 'software engineers' are engineers to me..... low level 'programmers' would be technicians, who aren't required to think per-se.
you don't know ANYTHING about James Dyson then.
He is very much an engineer - hence the very engineered look of his cleaning products. not really product designed in a styling sense. pure function over form
I think you'll find I know a fair bit about him and he didn't "design" any of it, all the stuff after the first prototype was the product of his employee's (product designers), and he isn't an engineer he is an arts graduate. He would not and could not call to mind any fluid dynamics/structural/materials engineering as he does not know or use any.
I'm not dissing him, I'm just pointing out that he is in no way an engineer so he doesn't fit the bill to refute Sugar's assertion.
In fact your assertion that his stuff "looks" very engineered just proves that he is a product designer, capable of capturing the Zeitgeist and making people think that his stuff works just by how it looks.
There are few programmers who just bash out simple code based on full and complete specs.
Part of the problem with Software Engineering is that it's not treated rigorously by those paying for it and many of those who actually do it.
Which is why so much software is so sht.
It's different, but then building bridges is different to making engines and they are both done by engineers
Exactly - the skill-set for engineering engines and bridges is broadly similar. Designing, optimising and implimenting software is a broadly different skillset - as, perhaps, a crass example, if I asked you to predict the fatigue life of an engine component, would your technical qualifications allow you to do that? By comparision, as engineer myself I have only a passing interest in coding, beyond the bits I can cobble together to automate routine tasks.
Engineer - has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn't work
Is that not being too general - you could be describing a doctor diagnosing and treating a patient in a similar way? But they aren't some form of 'human engineering technician'?
Ah, I see. Not real engineers then. Thanks for clarification.Don't talk shite
He's not. A real engineer can make things. REAL things. Out of metal usually, in a lathe, or with spanners and stuff, or maybe bricks and mortar.
My dad is an engineer. He made stuff from metal and fixed big machines.
I have a mate who is as well: He's currently building his second MTB frame, welded up in a jig he made himself, with tubing from a pipe bender he made himself becasue commercial ones are rubbish. He has lathes and a pillar drill in his garage, and swarf on the floor. THAT'S engineering!!
Software "engineer". Don't make me laugh! 🙂
Karl Benz didn't do too badly.
Ref to loads of eponymously titled German mega engineering corps who are all far far far bigger than anything Sugar will ever build.
Of course not, but if I asked you to design a thread-safe connection pool for a high load system, would you be able to do that?
"Engineer" from the French "ingénieur", ie someone with inginuity who can design a solution to a problem.
Be it a car engine, a bridge, a comuter programme.
BTW, I've a MEng in automotive engineering and am working towards Chartership with the IMechE.
A real engineer can make things
A real engineer can [s]make[/s] design things
PeterPoddy do you not think software is "real"? Do you live in the 1960s?
THAT'S engineering!!
I'd call it fabrication, [s]PeterTroller[/s] PeterPoddy.
"Computer Engineer" = Nerd.
End of thread.
Right come on then when is someone an engineer:
Someone who fiex cars - mechanic.
Someone who fixes your washing machine - mechanic.
Someone who produces technical drawings - technician.
Someone who operates a lathe - still not an engineer......
A real engineer can make things. REAL things.
Like a brick layer, a car mechanic, a painter?
A software engineer also makes things. Are you saying software isn't real? How did I see your message if it's not real? How am I replying if it's not real? Perhaps one of us is mad?
PeterPoddy do you not think software is "real
Well, can I hold it in my hands? Nope. It exists as letters and numbers inside a machine.
If software is engineering, then so is being an author: I could be a 'Romance Enginner' if I wrote a love story for example.....
the guy who founded our company was an engineer, as was the guy who started our uk office, and after about 20 years, the founder flogged the lot and now spends his time doing trackdays on fast bikes, or ragging around in one of his porches, among other things. the engineer who opened our office is spending his time building houses and taking his formula ford to trackdays.
apparently the company who bought us 'had very deep pockets'. they've done ok as far as i can tell.
Btw. I've yet to come across a boss of a business who isn't a pompous twit.
Like a brick layer, a car mechanic, a painter?
A brick layer follws the design of a Civil engineer
A mechanic fixes things (I'm a mechanic)
And a painter is an artist, who copies real things.
Of course not, but if I asked you to design a thread-safe connection pool, would you be able to do that?
No, but as an engineer, I wouldn't be expected to - I'm not belittling the skills set, all I'm saying is I don't see 'software engineering' being connected to the skillset taught to professional engineers beyond the scope/optimise/impliment "umbrella"
Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bringing design rigour to software development - there was no 'software engineering' degree in it's own right.
EDIT: Spot the much needed 'NOT' 😉
"Computer Engineer" = Nerd.
Stroppy nerd, it seems....,[quote 😈
PeterPoddy you can't conceptualize things that you can't hold in your hands? Bless.
He's not. A real engineer can make things. REAL things. Out of metal usually, in a lathe, or with spanners and stuff, or maybe bricks and mortar.
Are people who write the low level code to make robotic arms work engineers then? There must be some engineering in an arm building part of a car or in building the arm, so surely the person who told the arm what to do (but didn't put the hardware together) is classed as an engineer?
If software is engineering, then so is being an author: I could be a 'Romance Enginner' if I wrote a love story for example
Do you not think there are rigorous principles behind Software Engineering then?
So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering. Basically if it is an applied science then it is tending towards engineering.
"Engineer - has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn't work. i.e. milling a part to fix the car..."
No thats a good mechanic as opposed to a fitter.
To engineer you have to understand the forces and then design a solution rather than just making something fit or using trial and error.
Are people who write the low level code to make robotic arms work engineers then?
No. But the bloke that made the arm might be.... He might also be a mechanic....
(This is like shooting fish in a barrel..... 😉 )
An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools. But someone who can only write software is probably not an engineer imho.
Er, Ove Arup?
Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bring design rigour to software development - there was not 'software engineering' degree in it's own right
That varies according to the uni in question ime.
No, but as an engineer, I wouldn't be expected to - I'm not belittling the skills set, all I'm saying is I don't see 'software engineering' being connected to the skillset taught to professional engineers beyond the scope/optimise/impliment "umbrella"
The concepts are very similar. The medium is different, but that doesn't matter. You're still a linguist if you study French or Proto-European aren't you?
Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bring design rigour to software development - there was not 'software engineering' degree in it's own right.
There's both bachelors and masters degrees in software engineering at the uni I went to.
So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering
To be honest, I'd say it's a skill, or maybe an art. But it ain't making anything. Do you 'make' a computer program, or 'write' it?
An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools
In the same way that I can change a cambelt.. 🙂
If an engineer can design systems to the same level that I can then he is also a software engineer - no questions there.
So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering
Ah.. Computer Science is a different ballgame altogether.
Do you 'make' a computer program, or 'write' it?
Doesn't matter. 'Write' is a specialization of 'make' in this case.
Software Engineer = Pedantic nerd.
Software 'engineer' is a grand title, nothing more.
Like 'marine coating and heating technician'....
Software Engineer = Pedantic nerd.
And vitally so 🙂
Software 'engineer' is a grand title, nothing more
Grand title for what? A menial job?
Stop trying to troll, PeterPoddy 😛
An engineeer can write software, its one of his toolsIn the same way that I can change a cambelt..
So he would be a 'software mechanic' then?
Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were engineers - Software Engineers
Lets all play nice - that can of worms has been kicked to death on here before 🙂
Not done enough, it seems!
FWIW, I'm am embedded software engineer with a degree in electrical and electronic engineering. Is an electronic engineer who designs FPGAs an engineer? What if he does it by writing VHDL code?
The concepts are very similar
The METHODOLOGY is broadly similar, as it is for most applied sciences (medicine/dentistry/vets - applied biology etc), but the concepts required for implimentation are NOT similar. See my example above, where we both agree we couldn't do each others job - I would expect a Aero or Civil engineer to be able to rock up at my desk and we'd be, conceptually, talking the same language.
In the same way that I can change a cambelt..
Non-comparision - you didn't engineer the cambelt, you followed the instructions on how to do it. Likewise, I blindly follow the help manual like any fool when knocking up bits of code.