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Why do you need to have a rigid set of beliefs before you can vote? Or any beliefs at all for that matter?
Brexit shows us that people with beliefs (alone) shouldn't vote.
BoatyMcBoatface shows us that no one can really be trusted to vote, but that we have a sense of humour.
My personal belief is that we should leave national government up to a king/dictator, and make it a punishable offence to complain.
Local government should be handled by the local Monster Raving Loony candidate.
Everyone's happy.
(Except some of the permagrumps on here, but they're in jail/on the wall so who cares)
I see it as a point of principal. We are happy to extract tax from a 16 year old’s wages if they get a job and we are even ok as a society with starting them in basic training to learn how to shoot someone if they sign up for the army – It seems a bit weird to not let them actually have a vote.
That's a really good point.
There's a huge discrepancy in this country between various legal rights at various ages. You can have sex at 16 but you have to wait two more years before you can watch someone else do it. You can enlist in the army at 16 (and the UK is an outlier here), can't buy alcohol until you're 18 and most shops have a 'Challenge 21' policy to buy cigarettes.
Up until as recently as last year you could get married at 16, it's 18 now. How times have changed there. By the letter of the law you could be planning your second child by the time you're allowed to marry, I'm amazed the god-fearing types haven't been up in arms about that. (I wonder how long it'll be before the age of sexual consent is raised?)
At 16 you're deemed old enough to have babies, but deemed not old enough to vote. That's ****ed up.
I’ve just made myself a bunnyhop bar.
Oh, she'll like that.
We are happy to extract tax from a 16 year old’s wages if they get a job and we are even ok as a society with starting them in basic training to learn how to shoot someone
You say that as if there is universal agreement on those issues. I doubt that many 16 year olds actually pay income tax on their wages, and you are not allowed to shoot at anyone until you are at least 18 years old.
Personally I reckon there is possibly a case for full-time education or training (with perhaps work experience) until the age of 18. And also bringing the UK in line with other comparable countries and not allow under 18 year olds to join the armed forces.
At 16 you’re deemed old enough to have babies, but deemed not old enough to vote. That’s ****ed up.
I think you might be mixing up society recognising that there is little that can be done about 16 year olds getting pregnant, and, society believing that most 16 year olds are mature enough to start a family - ime they generally need support, from adults.
The only way you can still be a Tory supporter is if you refuse to expose your opinions to challenge. You can do that by either keeping your mouth shut or making sure you only express your opinion in places where you know you will receive support.
I seem to remember a post from a few years ago from someone asking why people voted Tory. He went on say he would just like to hear from people who voted Conservative because he wanted insight into their way of thinking.
Guess what? Cue loads of posts, mostly from the usual suspects, saying that they would never vote Tory, because they are all racist bastards, had blood on their hands, were selfish & intolerant bigots etc etc. Funnily enough, we never did get to hear from anyone who admitted to voting Conservative or get an idea of why they themselves thought that doing so was a good idea.
The lack of self-awareness from the people who did post was astonishing.
That’s a really good point.
There’s a huge discrepancy in this country between various legal rights at various ages. You can have sex at 16 but you have to wait two more years before you can watch someone else do it. You can enlist in the army at 16 (and the UK is an outlier here), can’t buy alcohol until you’re 18 and most shops have a ‘Challenge 21’ policy to buy cigarettes.
Up until as recently as last year you could get married at 16, it’s 18 now. How times have changed there. By the letter of the law you could be planning your second child by the time you’re allowed to marry, I’m amazed the god-fearing types haven’t been up in arms about that. (I wonder how long it’ll be before the age of sexual consent is raised?)
At 16 you’re deemed old enough to have babies, but deemed not old enough to vote. That’s ****ed up
OTOH we now have the situation in Scotland where under 25s are not being sentenced to jail beacuse 'scientific evidence' has shown that their brains are not fully developed leading to them being impulsive, risk taking & generally unable to properly assess the full consequences of their behaviour.
I was thinking more ‘completely’ than just your political views. Every time you posts it’s filled with bitterness.
I couldn’t live like that.
Lighten up, just the way it comes across and my 'style' of writing I guess. I couldn't live with having to buy a new bike every 10 minutes in a fruitless search for whatever you are missing in life but we are all different (clearly that was deliberately bitter and in jest)
They can’t vote until they’ve stopped playing with dolls and Lego?
Whut? I've been voting 30+ years and still play with lego.
I doubt that many 16 year olds actually pay income tax on their wages
You don't know many 16 year olds?
Anyone who leaves work and gets a FT job these days will probably be paying some small amount of income tax.
I know i was, on occasion, from about 14/15. (And almost all the time once i passed 16 and started working more hours).
Another post i noticed.
Yep. When I got into mountain biking again I joined and expected it to be all ‘edgy cool people’, bit like how most people into MTB seemed to be back in the 90’s. How wrong I was!
He can't have been paying attention. Many of the "edgy cool people" in 90's MTB were essentially try hard dullards, or just a little bit boring once you got them away from the photoshoots.
Much like the edgy cool people we have in MTBing today i suppose. 5% cool, 95% trying to be and making a right ucking mess of it.
Blimey Rodney, it's like deja vu all over again.
Yes this is a left leaning forum. As I move further left as I get older, I'm disappointed how so many of the people on here aren't interested in hearing the alternative viewpoint, but either there are no right wingers left to put forward a reasoned explanation for their view, or they are unable to put forward a reasoned explanation for their view (because it probably doesn't exist). Both of which are a shame, IMO, even if they are unlikely to change my opinion.
This is what scares me about the left in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
One possible reason why internet forums attract the centre/left viewpoint is because the mainstream print and online media here in the UK is overwhelmingly rightwing. It really cuts both ways.
The lack of self-awareness from the people who did post was astonishing.
Pretty much always the way, on many subjects
I think you might be mixing up society recognising that there is little that can be done about 16 year olds getting pregnant, and, society believing that most 16 year olds are mature enough to start a family – ime they generally need support, from adults.
I'm surprised to learn that sex education has been removed from the school curriculum. Does society recognise the same of 13-year olds?
Maybe those adults could support them in putting a cross in a square also?
either there are no right wingers left to put forward a reasoned explanation for their view, or they are unable to put forward a reasoned explanation for their view
It's mostly because they're too busy complaining that they're not allowed to say anything, to say anything.
If you have contentious opinions and you're scared of the fallout then either make your point and walk away, or perhaps take a moment to consider why they might be viewed as contentious.
Up until as recently as last year you could get married at 16, it’s 18 now.
Still 16 in Scotland.
But as the saying goes, no taxation without representation. Seems fair enough to me, if you're going to tax someone and let them sign a contract when they enlist in the armed forces then they should be allowed to have a say in where those taxes go.
It’s mostly because they’re too busy complaining that they’re not allowed to say anything, to say anything.
If you have contentious opinions and you’re scared of the fallout then either make your point and walk away, or perhaps take a moment to consider why they might be viewed as contentious.
It's only contentious when the STW mob decrees it as such. Let's face it, this forum isn't exactly kind to people with views roughly to the right of social anarchism never mind right of centre. The reason you don't hear any is probably because the more reasonable* ones have either left or just decided to keep their heads down. Christ, it's bad enough when the lefties are bickering amongst each other never mind with the actual other side.
*we have had a fair share of the much less reasonable ones too.
Yes this is a left leaning forum. As I move further left as I get older, I’m disappointed how so many of the people on here aren’t interested in hearing the alternative viewpoint, but either there are no right wingers left to put forward a reasoned explanation for their view, or they are unable to put forward a reasoned explanation for their view (because it probably doesn’t exist). Both of which are a shame, IMO, even if they are unlikely to change my opinion.
The reason why there's not much discourse is because there's not much discussion to be had. The right is self-serving and the left is intolerant of/morally against the right. The right sees the left as unrealistic do-gooders/woke/loony, and the left sees the right as scum/inhuman/bigoted.
All that happens is that the left takes the (supposed) moral high ground and shuts down any discussion because they cannot compromise on their morals. The left wants to do as much as possible to alleviate all suffering, whereas the right simply... doesn't.
So in answer to the comments about why someone might vote Tory here are some reasons:
- I want lower taxes because I want to keep more of the money I make for myself and my family.
- I want a smaller state - people/families/communities ought to be able to look after themselves and not rely on the government/society. State support systems that are too generous can be exploited. I don't want the money I have worked hard to earn paying for the work shy.
- I want fewer immigrants coming into the county. It takes me 5 minutes just to pull out onto the busy A road when I go to work in the morning. I don't even bother going into town on a Saturday morning because I know I won't be able to park and the traffic will be horrendous. I'm not racist - I prioritise quality over quantity. I would happily trade all the benefit claimants for hard working eastern Europeans and Asians.
So, what discussion can now be had with a lefty? None. Left calls the right racist scum, right shrugs and walks away and continues to contemplate strange and unusual ways to avoid paying taxes.
If you have contentious opinions and you’re scared of the fallout then either make your point and walk away, or perhaps take a moment to consider why they might be viewed as contentious.
The thing is though, an opinion which is judged 'contentious' by STW standards, may well be pretty mainstream in your local pub, work place or shopping centre. I've become a bit hand wringy/snow flakey in my dotage. I mostly tend to agree with the prevailing slant on here, but let's not pretend the STW world view is representative of the country as a whole. I do sometimes think that when people come on here with views that fail the STW acceptability gauge, they should be shown a little tolerance and respect instead of the usual pitch fork pile on. A few more diverse views would be healthy IMO.
Let’s face it, this forum isn’t exactly kind to people with views roughly to the right of social anarchism never mind right of centre
Funnily enough, I think this forum is mostly small "c" conservative and is pretty intolerant of those genuinely on the left.
I want fewer immigrants coming into the county. It takes me 5 minutes just to pull out onto the busy A road when I go to work in the morning.
Tell me about it.
Me and Nigel Farage:
"It took me six hours and 15 minutes in the car to get here. It should have taken three and a half to four"
Tell me about it.
Me and Nigel Farage:
“It took me six hours and 15 minutes in the car to get here. It should have taken three and a half to four”
Good example of the left shutting down the discussion. There's a quote from the shadow Welsh Labour chap calling Farage 'dangerous, absurd and silly', and then the top comment on the page is someone joking about what a joke Farage is.
Although his excuse for being late is poor, he is making a point that resonates with a lot of people. You only have to look at the census results for 2021. Take Milton Keynes as an example. In 2021 only 71.8% of the population declared themselves to be English by birth. Aside from the fact that that's quite a startling figure in isolation - that's also an 8.3% decrease from only a decade earlier. What do the lefties think? That all these people do not travel by car? That's tens of thousands more people using the same road network just in one town, in one decade. And Milton Keynes didn't even exist at all 60 years ago.
Take Milton Keynes as an example.
Beautiful English name.
Good example of the left shutting down the discussion.
How is that the left "shutting down" the discussion?
You are discussing it aren't you? I simply gave an example of someone publicly backing your claim that foreigners are blocking up the roads for everyone else.
Take Milton Keynes as an example. In 2021 only 71.8% of the population declared themselves to be English by birth.
What do you mean 'only'? 37% of Londoners weren't born in the UK, including me.
I'm off to drive from Croydon to Bromley shortly btw.
All that happens is that the left takes the (supposed) moral high ground and shuts down any discussion because they cannot compromise on their morals.
I'm on the left, but I am very much open to discussion. It is at least theoretically possible to have a progressive right wing government that makes everyone happy; but I cannot see how the actual execution of right wing politics won't lead to people suffering. I'd love to be wrong, as I very much don't like seeing people suffer.
I want fewer immigrants coming into the county. It takes me 5 minutes just to pull out onto the busy A road when I go to work in the morning. I don’t even bother going into town on a Saturday morning because I know I won’t be able to park and the traffic will be horrendous.
How do you know this is due to immigration and not indigenous Brits simply driving more?
And Milton Keynes didn’t even exist at all 60 years ago.
Presumably we can thank foreigners for the fact that Milton Keynes even exists?
I have to say I preferred it 1,000 years ago when the population was just over a million. It never took any time to pull out onto an A road although I didn't really care for the actions of some of those immigrants from Daneland so it was swings and roundabouts.
and then the top comment on the page is someone joking about what a joke Farage is.
I thought this one better - " We need to racially purify England so that we can get some decent dentists to look at Nigel's ropey teeth. Talking of ropey teeth, the gaps in his are so big I hear he buys his dental floss from the same people who make mooring ropes."
The problem is too many ****ing cars! Where the people driving them come from is neither here nor there. Wasn’t it Thatcher that started the whole car is king thing.
Runs away
Beautiful English name.
yep funny naming it after a Dune book character 🙂
@jamz that's pretty good, another could be cutting benefits - cut working tax credits to alleviate state burdens and instead make it incumbent on employers to pay a proper wage. Small government, low benefits, associated lower taxes but still looking out for the little guy. It's possible.
Funnily enough, I think this forum is mostly small “c” conservative and is pretty intolerant of those genuinely on the left.
@ransos well you would wouldn't you? You're definitely one of the leftest of lefties here and your economic views are anything but conservative. That's just your perspective though, same as someone else might say we're all a bunch of radical lefties. That's not a criticism BTW.
What do the lefties think?
Well, this one is now wondering how I’d answer a question about whether I was, “English by birth?” I was born British, in Germany, to English parents. Where do all the people born elsewhere in the UK, but now living where the survey was taken, fit in? And those born in England to parents of other nationalities? So many questions.
Get on the bike, leave the car at home… or offer everyone lifts and fill up your seats.
I want fewer immigrants coming into the county. It takes me 5 minutes just to pull out onto the busy A road when I go to work in the morning. I don’t even bother going into town on a Saturday morning because I know I won’t be able to park and the traffic will be horrendous.
This one’s easy just don’t acknowledge their driving licences and have special lanes for pure Bloods :-).
I think that’s symptomatic of a crap transport system/dire city planning not immigration thou, I can’t ever remember my city centre being some driving utopia in my lifetime tbh.
That’s just your perspective
Obviously. I posted in response to your perspective, which seemed to be framed as fact.
I can’t ever remember my city centre being some driving utopia in my lifetime tbh.
I remember a time when immigrants drove buses.
– I want lower taxes because I want to keep more of the money I make for myself and my family.
Under the current and future regimes that extra money will go to keep you healthy and a fair chunk more.
– I want a smaller state – people/families/communities ought to be able to look after themselves and not rely on the government/society. State support systems that are too generous can be exploited. I don’t want the money I have worked hard to earn paying for the work shy.
Does this include the egregiously rich and sundry chancers that were sucking at the public money teat during COVID and ripping us all off? Remember state support also goes to employers whose rip-off's are several orders of magnitude greater than those of the poor.
As for equating immigration with traffic density and the benefit claimant statements I'm at a loss to see how those stack up. Immigrants have been shown to pay more in than they take out and traffic density is a function of too many driving when public transport or active travel serves their needs. (It doesn't currently serve all the needs and some cars/vans will be needed).
Well, this one is now wondering how I’d answer a question about whether I was, “English by birth?”
Luckily, that wasn't the question the census actually asked. The stat is actually that 71.8% of Milton Keynes residents were born in England.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/censusareachanges/E06000042/
5% cool, 95% trying to be and making a right ucking mess of it.
A right hucking mess?
I don’t want the money I have worked hard to earn paying for the work shy.
– I want fewer immigrants coming into the county. It takes me 5 minutes just to pull out onto the busy A road when I go to work in the morning. I don’t even bother going into town on a Saturday morning because I know I won’t be able to park and the traffic will be horrendous. I’m not racist – I prioritise quality over quantity. I would happily trade all the benefit claimants for hard working eastern Europeans and Asians.
To me that just reads as awful. In my, albeit limited, experience.
A lot of folk I know who have lots of money don’t work hard. The opposite is also true. Lots of genuinely hard jobs involve low pay.
I’m not racist is a great way of saying I’m racist. Only want those good immigrants. None of those asylum seekers who are fleeing oppression.
All the benefit claimants? Even those who genuinely can’t work?
The car bit is just baffling. Get a train or walk in to town.
traffic density is a function of too many driving when public transport or active travel serves their needs.
To be honest when Jamz said, "It takes me 5 minutes just to pull out onto the busy A road when I go to work in the morning" my first reaction was "the junction could probably do with a set of traffic lights", not that Jamz should use public transport.
But a good point nevertheless.
Personally I reckon there is possibly a case for full-time education or training (with perhaps work experience) until the age of 18.
Thought we already have that?
We only have full time education until 16. After that it becomes a choice or down to if you/your parents can afford it. Apprenticeships and training schemes don’t seem to be as prevalent as they used to be. I could be wrong on that though.
Bring back the YTS! I remember doing backbreaking work in a builders yard and a marble workshop for the princely some of £29.50 a week. Those were the days!
Thought we already have that?
Obviously I mean compulsory. I thought that was obvious as currently there is no age limit on full-time education or training. As far as I'm aware of.
Which country?
https://www.gov.uk/know-when-you-can-leave-school
Full time only compulsory to 15/16. Only England has any requirement for education to 18.
Is that relatively new for England? Seems like a decent idea.
There is a certain irony in where this thread started and where it’s ended up…
You must then do one of the following until you’re 18:
stay in full-time education, for example at a college
start an apprenticeship or traineeship
spend 20 hours or more a week working or volunteering, while in part-time education or training
Tbh I remembered the discussions around the proposals but I assumed it was no longer the case as the claim was made that 16 year olds pay income tax on their wages.
They would need to be on Megabucks whilst training to hit the tax threshold working 20 hours a week. So is it safe to say that 16 year olds don't pay income tax?
There is a certain irony in where this thread started and where it’s ended up…
It's lost on me. What's the irony?
Best thread I've started for a long time with well over century break and that doesn't happen very often on here now
It’s only contentious when the STW mob decrees it as such.
Oh, I'm sorry, my mistake. I thought someone was arguing earlier that they were the majority.
Weird "mob" if so.
All that happens is that the left takes the (supposed) moral high ground and shuts down any discussion
How does one "shut down discussion"?
*looks around*
It's seemingly proving remarkably ineffective.
Best thread I’ve started for a long time with well over century break and that doesn’t happen very often on here now
You linked to a clickbait which mentioned "lefties" which is catnip to our political contrarians. A grenade like that will easily shatter the 100 post mark.
So in answer to the comments about why someone might vote Tory here are some reasons:
– I want lower taxes because I want to keep more of the money I make for myself and my family.
Ie, screw everyone else, so long as I'm alright.
– I want a smaller state – people/families/communities ought to be able to look after themselves and not rely on the government/society. State support systems that are too generous can be exploited. I don’t want the money I have worked hard to earn paying for the work shy.
Again, screw everyone else, so long as I'm alright.
– I want fewer immigrants coming into the county....
I’m not racist – I prioritise quality over quantity. I would happily trade all the benefit claimants for hard working eastern Europeans and Asians.
Poe's Law aside,
Bull.
****ing.
Shit.
This is the absolute number one driver. I challenge anyone to find someone who claims to be a tory voter who believes that what we really need in the country is more brown people. Well, aside from the ones with family in Asia who were savvy enough to realise that if EU immigration goes down, non-EU immigration has to go up. Or a few people on STW who were born contrary.
Fraudulent benefits claims are vanishingly low. There's always going to be a few who milk the system but it's statistically insignificant. I also would happily take all the hard working Eastern Europeans and Asians (remember when that was easy?) but that's nothing to do with benefits claimants. Our immigration policy is the way it is because we desperately imported people such as doctors from the Indian Subcontinent back when we were on out arse after WWII.
Well someone had to say it
This is what scares me about the left in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
It's the Republicans in the US who are doing all of those things today. So I suspect it's not a left/right thing at all. Don't ask me what it is but it's distasteful.
middle class pseudo-socialist hypocritical tts, who can't even wheelie
Jeez.. I fear this describes me to a T 😂
What? There’s a bike forum?
It’s just a rumour…
First I’ve heard of it…
@cougar who are you arguing with? He was posting examples of what someone might offer as an argument, AFAIK not actually endorsing them himself.
Oh, I’m sorry, my mistake. I thought someone was arguing earlier that they were the majority.
Weird “mob” if so.
What? Who? I think you thought wrong, only you've said that AFAIK and I really can't be arsed rereading this dumpster fire to find out.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Suffice to say the OP (on Pistonheads) was right. This shit is boring and utterly predictable along with the same boring ****ers determined to be the most right or start an argument where there is none.
The weather outside is lovely, FFS go and try to remember what joy is.
screw everyone else, so long as I’m alright.
That is basically the right wingers thinking on everything which is why I am so fundamentally at odds with them as I said a few pages back. And after talking to many of them it is the fact that they are alright that is totally missed on them either because of their privilege or just because they don't really care which they make many excuses for. A common line I hear is "why don't they just work hard like I did then they would be alright"