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https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=210&t=1870106&i=20
Quite funny but very true in some respects
I've never been there of my own volition but it pops up an awful lot for when I google random and generalised enquiries like 'what's it like going on holiday in Middlesborough with gout?'
🤣 Apparently this is a bad thing!
A few years old now, but interesting.
it pops up an awful lot for when I google random and generalised enquiries
This. It's the reason why I registered as a user in the end (print mag reader from the start). The amount of times a Google search would have an STW thread in it was getting ridiculous - and often not just for bike stuff. It made sense to be able to reply/contribute.
The person who posted the above uses that negatively to say that the forum has gone awry, but that doesn't take the sub-forums into account; the 'Overview' home forum probably does look a bit mad to non-users or lurkers.
Lol, they’ve got it spot on with anything remotely political.
going on holiday in Middlesborough
Apparently this is a bad thing!
It really, really is.
Lol, they’ve got it spot on with anything remotely political.
You sure, I didn't think Corbyn was very popular on here anymore....
Of course it is left leaning, I would not bother participating if it wasn't. I don't want to interact with a load of right wing ****ers as I don't like what they stand for, how they see society etc,. I had heard that Pistonheads was the place for the right wing ****ers anyway?
Meh, all internet forums are the same. Just different groups of folk in incessant pissing contests. Look at any of them (PH included) and there'll be a fair chunk of political / religious / whatever content you don't like and so you can chose to label the whole forum as being populated only by "champagne socialists" [replace with your chosen derogatory phrase].
But equally, there'll be loads of useful stuff you agree with, if you chose to read those topics.
Whether you decide you like or dislike the forum overall is more to do with your prejudices against the main user group (mtbers in the case of stw) than any of the content posted.
Of course it is left leaning, I would not bother participating if it wasn’t. I don’t want to interact with a load of right wing * as I don’t like what they stand for, how they see society etc,. I had heard that Pistonheads was the place for the right wing * anyway?
There it is: the ANGER of the left.
Meh, all internet forums are the same. Just different groups of folk in incessant pissing contests. Look at any of them (PH included) and there’ll be a fair chunk of political / religious / whatever content you don’t like and so you can chose to label the whole forum as being populated only by “champagne socialists” [replace with your chosen derogatory phrase].
Sadly, you're completely correct.
To post on the PH's equivalent of the chat forum you have to have 1000 posts in the car forums. Imagine having to post a 1000 times in the bike forum before being allowed to post here?
What? There’s a bike forum?
Imagine having to post a 1000 times in the bike forum before being allowed to post here?
You might have to actually ride a bike!
What? There’s a bike forum?
It's just a rumour...
What? There’s a bike forum?
Nice variation of a well known saying! 😂
Theres a bit of self selection on threads though. People afraid to comment against the grain.
My oft used (non political) example from a few years ago, there were 2 threads on the front page on the same day: "Do you carry a first aid kit"; and "what do you carry on a ride?".
First aid kit thread had 90% of people saying yes.
but very few in the general carrying thread had one.
Of course it is left leaning, I would not bother participating if it wasn’t.
Surely if you want to discuss topical political issues it helps if it is in an environment which vaguely represents the wider population?
I don't see the attraction or point of political threads in which posters endless post how much they agree with previous posters.
Political threads seem to invariably end up being a competition in who hates the Tories most. Literally weeks if not months can pass without a single contribution from anyone who openly supports the Tories.
When you consider that about 10 million people are likely to vote Tory next general election that suggests a staggering lack of political balance.
I can understand how some people might need the warm reassurance of having their political views validated by others but personally I prefer a slightly more challenging environment.
Theres a bit of self selection on threads though. People afraid to comment against the grain.
Is there. What people and what comments are they afraid to make and what are they afraid of?
What people and what comments are they afraid to make and what are they afraid of?
See Ernie's post above. Or check the Brexit thread to see if 52% of the posts are in favour. Sometimes the views of the majority are drowned by a vocal minority, but if you steer clear of politics that's less of an issue as those same posters are also diverse in many other ways.
Literally weeks if not months can pass without a single contribution from anyone who openly supports the Tories.
That's becasue the forum zeitgeist is generally left leaning, which shouldn't come as a massive surprise given the demographic that inhabit it. mostly higher education, mostly environmentally aware, some cycling commuting, all of which are more likely than not to be left leaning politically. As someone said upthread, folks end up where they feel most welcome and comfortable expressing their opinions, and right wing folks have either found other places where their views fit in with the general feel, or they don't get challenged as hard.
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Is there. What people and what comments are they afraid to make and what are they afraid of?
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I don't think it's that they are afraid. It's more a case of why waste one's time? I mean, what's that saying, idiots will always beat you through experience or something? So unless you're just making a post to out-agree the previous poster's sentiments, the usual crowd will just scream RACIST! TROLL! YOU READ THE DAILY MAIL!. Which is just moronic, why bother dignifying it with a response? It's like equivalent of a teenager slamming their door and screaming I HATE YOU.
I'd say they nailed it!
or they don’t get challenged as hard.
By alleged "lefties" who don't like their veiws challenged!
If someone was to post something vaguely in support of a Tory politician, for example, they can expect an immediate reaction which invariably will involve accusations of trolling and various other personal insults.
I wouldn't describe that as "challenging" their views, just basic intolerance of people with different opinions.
...and so the direction of the thread changes...gets hijacked...
That thread includes valuable contributions from people who claimed to have been banned from everywhere... including... a caravanning forum!
On the lack of pro-tory comments on here... I haven't heard a positive comment about the Tories from any of my Tory voting friends or family for about two years either... just lots of muttering about them and their rollercoaster of a government.
…and so the direction of the thread changes…gets hijacked…
No one is surprised. Sorry for contributing to the deja-vu. Soz, again.
Surely if you want to discuss topical political issues it helps if it is in an environment which vaguely represents the wider population?
Nope not really. The way a right winger thinks about society is at odds with mine at a fundamental level and I simply don't need to hear it. If I did I would join a forum with a load of right wingers on it and I guess I would then be the person who was "afraid" to post a comment, or wasting my time, or called a woke lefty or whatever.
just basic intolerance of people with different opinions.
Sure, I'd imagine your posts over the years have contributed to that as much as everyone else on the politics threads, like I said the general 'feel' of the forum is left leaning. People are either attracted to that, or they're not, and either stay or don't accordingly.
…and so the direction of the thread changes…gets hijacked…
How exactly? Looks like a discussion about the political leanings of the forum and the reasons behind it which is directly related to the Pistonheads comments about the forum isn't it.
How did you want the discussion to go?
I’d imagine your posts over the years have contributed to that as much as everyone else on the politics threads,
I can't recall ever calling someone a troll because I didn't agree with their opinions.
If the site owners choose to cater to 50% of an available audience and can make a good living from it that's up to them.
Oh wait ..
“champagne socialists”
It's all about prosecco progressivism now, baby
If anyone popped up and said, 'I'm voting Tory!' the next question would most likely be 'Why?'
That's where your average Tory voter runs into problems as they suddenly find they are not in their Facebook echo chamber and putting a coherent argument together that will survive even the most mild challenge is actually quite hard.
So yes, Tory voters are not made to feel welcome here because people do the thoroughly unpleasant thing of asking them why they think what they do. It's quite traumatising for Tory supporters.
It is the epitome of an echo chamber, populated by wannabe middle class pseudo-socialist hypocritical tts, who can't even wheelie.
The wheelie bit makes me suspect he has actually spent some time on here.
PH is pretty much the exact mirror of this place politically and culturally, which actually makes it a bit of fun to see the polar opinions on certain subjects. Seeing the Brexit threads side-by-side was fun at the time!
I've been a member of PH since it was a TVR only forum (for the chat via friends who had TVRs), a member of the 200 month club but very, very rarely post anything on there anymore and only in the obscure parts of the forum.
To post on the PH’s equivalent of the chat forum you have to have 1000 posts in the car forums. Imagine having to post a 1000 times in the bike forum before being allowed to post here?
It was brought in to essentially stop trolls creating multiple logins and destroying any debate, originally at 100 posts you got access but the rise of spambots meant it got raised to 1000. Sad really as it completely puts off new members staying past their initial enquiry. Really glad this place doesn't have a similar rule despite the persistent regulars who rejoin just to post on the political stuff! PH still gets hit with hundreds of spam posts most nights but they are almost always new topics so easily cleaned up by the mods.
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Nope not really. The way a right winger thinks about society is at odds with mine at a fundamental level and I simply don’t need to hear it. If I did I would join a forum with a load of right wingers on it and I guess I would then be the person who was “afraid” to post a comment, or wasting my time, or called a woke lefty or whatever.
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See that just seems like an utterly alien mindset to me. I don't want to exist in an echo chamber. What if I'm wrong? I want to formulate my opinions from as wide and diverse set of inputs and influences as possible. I take bits from all over, on some things I'd be considered 'left wing' on others, 'right'.
This is what scares me about the left in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
That’s becasue the forum zeitgeist is generally left leaning, which shouldn’t come as a massive surprise given the demographic that inhabit it
I'd presume an equivalent rugby or cricket forum might be the reverse. It's horses for courses; can you imagine Equestrian Track World?
The way a right winger thinks about society is at odds with mine at a fundamental level and I simply don’t need to hear it.
Well that's a pretty intolerant position to take, not to mention arrogant. If you don't listen to arguments counter to your own viewpoint how do you learn? It might confirm to you, your own view has more merit, it might even, shock horror open your eyes to the possibility you're not 100% right. I know my views have moved leftwards due to threads on here and it's made me think more carefully about things.
Also someone right of centre is not necessarily right wing or on the right for everything. Express a less than left leaning view and your demonised, the political spectrum is just that, on here it's much more skewed to the left.
Also someone right of centre in their views is not automatically a Tory, there's very few sane people left who would defend the indefensible but don't have left leaning political viewpoints.
Just because someone is right of centre doesn't mean they don't care about other people, they may not think the left's way of doing things will lead to a bright future for all or even work. Politics is nuanced, societal behaviour isn't the same as individual behaviour.
This is what scares me about the left in general and why they need to be resisted. Always
Echo chambers are not necessarily compatible with left-wing views.
This was famously Karl Marx's favourite motto:
De omnibus dubitandum
And no, he wasn't talking about a geezer on the Clapham omnibus.
Well that’s a pretty intolerant position to take, not to mention arrogant
Not at all. I live in an area where I am surrounded by tories, I work in a place where I am surrounded by tories. I am 55 years old and have heard everything I need to hear from tories and have most of my adult life lived under tory governments. I am VERY unlikely to learn anything new about tories way of thinking.
I am not here for the echo chamber, I am here to avoid yet more tory nonsense.
Literally weeks if not months can pass without a single contribution from anyone who openly supports the Tories.
Surely that's a good thing?
What if I’m wrong?
Hi!
I am surrounded by tories, I work in a place where I am surrounded by tories.
Well that's you innit? I am certainly not surrounded by Tories.
Why aren't you a Tory btw? You sound like a prime candidate!
I can’t recall ever calling someone a troll because I didn’t agree with their opinions.
It's not what I'm driving at, People don't leave forums 'just' becasue they've been called troll, or whatever, people leave becasue they can sense that the weight of the forum doesn't align with their politics or beliefs so just naturally go somewhere where it's more like them. It's human nature.
Well that’s you innit? I am certainly not surrounded by Tories.
Okay, so you still have much to learn. Why are you hanging around on this forum as you won't learn anything here?
Why aren’t you a Tory btw? You sound like a prime candidate!
What makes you say that?
Why aren’t you a Tory btw? You sound like a prime candidate!
Possibly because they don't stick exclusively to Tory echo-chambers?
The only way you can still be a Tory supporter is if you refuse to expose your opinions to challenge. You can do that by either keeping your mouth shut or making sure you only express your opinion in places where you know you will receive support.
Believe it or not, this place is absolutely not an echo chamber. You will be challenged on pretty much any opinion you express. Even people who agree with you will challenge your opinion.
It’s human nature.
It's human nature not to want to argue politics and instead find like-minded people whose political opinions you can agree with?
I'm not sure about that.
Why are you hanging around on this forum as you won’t learn anything here?
I have learnt loads...... the innermost thoughts of middle-class "liberal lefties"!
Amongst many things I have been genuinely astounded by the lack of tolerance. I had actually no idea that I was such a liberal until I came here.
What makes you say that?
Well you appear to be in an environment where everyone else is a Tory so I wondered why you didn't turn out that way - why you appear to be the black sheep.
Amongst many things I have been genuinely astounded by the lack of tolerance.
I suspect I know the answer to this, but the lack of tolerance towards whom?
Well you appear to be in an environment where everyone else is a Tory so I wondered why you didn’t turn out that way – why you appear to be the black sheep.
Always have been. I did come from a working class background but even my very working class dad voted Thatcher which I thought was wrong even when I was 11 and my arguments with tory voters started at that point!
People I mixed with at school were left leaning until I went to a Grammar school to do A levels where I got my first taste of tory ****ers and have been in their presence since then really as lucked into a well paid job and nice area to live which are generally the preserve of privileged (but don't tell them that) tories.
Wow. You even knew it all at 11. Remarkable.
Certainly angry and unhappy about what tories have done yes.
That's genuinely interesting kerley. I was brought up in a left-wing (Labour) and very anti-fascist environment. I went much further to left rejecting social-democracy but I didn't start to develop my own independent veiws until I was about 14/15. It was a highly political environment though and no one was allowed to talk when the news was on. I first started reading the Guardian when I was 10 years old, basically because it was there and I wanted to understand why adults were so interested in politics/current affairs.
Are we really getting into an ‘I saw politics first!’ Argument?
There it is: the ANGER of the left.
Why would one (no matter what your leaning) not be angry at the current chaos and rudderless government.
This is what scares me about
the leftpoliticians in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
Projection is the current approach by the shower in power now and it seems to be catching.
It’s not what I’m driving at, People don’t leave forums ‘just’ becasue they’ve been called troll, or whatever, people leave becasue they can sense that the weight of the forum doesn’t align with their politics or beliefs so just naturally go somewhere where it’s more like them. It’s human nature.
Again isn't this a good thing?
Each forum evolves around a certain set of shared interests / beliefs and attracts / keeps people who are happy with that.
Eg I live in a very middle class, Labour voting street. However, I have one neighbour, who's pro-Brexit, pro-Tory, racist and I have no interest in ever hearing anything he has to say about anything. IMO he's a grade A ****. I really don't want my life inc forums to have anything to do with people like that just 'for balance'.
Are we really getting into an ‘I saw politics first!’ Argument?
I don't think so. Why, do you want to make a bid for the title?
Edit: I don't approve of lowering the voting age to 16 partly because I believe children need a period to fully develop their political views. At 16, despite being brought up in a far more political environment than any of my friends, I was unsure what my veiws really were - I was still exploring and trying to come to solid conclusions.
I first started reading the Guardian when I was 10 years old,
LOL so you're really in touch with the general population too. Think I was reading Doomlord in the Eagle around 10yo.
I couldn’t live like that.
Agreed.
Just done my lunchtime hour on Zwift and this battle is still raging. I'm knackered and feel rather chilled.
That thread includes valuable contributions from people who claimed to have been banned from everywhere… including… a caravanning forum!
Isn’t there a rule that if you go thru your day meeting loads of aholes then it’s probably you.
TBH isn’t the first rule of caravan club not to talk about caravan club and the wild swinging lifestyle that comes with it. So easy to get a ban.
I first started reading the Guardian when I was 10 years old,
LOL so you’re really in touch with the general population too.
I think I was yes, why do you think I might not have been - because we had the Guardian delivered? I went to school, was in a scout troop, had plenty of friends my own age, lived in a very working class area.
My dad's strong interest in politics and current affairs didn't make me any less in touch with the general population, it's strange that you apparently think that it might have.
Edit: And btw I didn't start reading the Eagle until I was a bit older - probably about 12. It wasn't delivered to the house.
I've always assumed PH has a bit of a Right of centre tilt, it's mainly a Car forum so I'm assuming there's a built in anti-green/anti-woke bias, coupled with the fact that "Car-blokes" often seem to consider Clarkson some sort of God... But that's just my own biased assumption, based on a couple of infrequent browsings when looking for other info on cars and stuff. Happy to be told it's a hot bed of insightful and broad political thought, I'll still probably not frequent it as I don't have a massive lob on for cars, hence I have a bicycle forum membership...
This is what scares me about the left in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
Sure...
Those poor right-wingers completely unable to communicate their ideas and opinions effectively, Just outright silenced and constantly having their freedom of speech stifled... Remind me again, which party currently runs the country? And who owns the biggest (by revenue) commercial news media group in the UK?
What 'Scares' me about the Right is their willingness to distort facts, stoke conspiracy theories, clutch their pearls at invented injustices or just outright lie in order to prop up their own miscellaneous agendas. Simultaneously playing at victimhood, while trying to dismantle any organisation that offers them a challenge or doesn't fall in line and uncritically parrot their propaganda.
What a weird thread. People talking about places they don't like but still visit. Why go there at all? Maybe PH and STW aren't as different as we all might think.
I think it's hilarious though that this thread is admirably demonstrating exactly what PH were claiming. They must be laughing their absolute tits off over there.
Sigh. Might as well join in.
Is there. What people and what comments are they afraid to make and what are they afraid of?
This is the "cancel culture" argument in different pants, isn't it. "I'm not an unpopular arse, I'm being cancelled!" Snowflakes.
Well that’s a pretty intolerant position to take, not to mention arrogant. If you don’t listen to arguments counter to your own viewpoint how do you learn?
I'm fairly certain that I don't need to hear any further counterpoints to decide whether I want to become a racist homophobe (for instance). Would you say that's arrogant?
You will be challenged on pretty much any opinion you express. Even people who agree with you will challenge your opinion.
No you won't. 😁
Edit: I don’t approve of lowering the voting age to 16 partly because I believe children need a period to fully develop their political views.
"Partly"? Why else?
I really don’t want my life inc forums to have anything to do with people like that just ‘for balance’.
I totally agree. After all there's a reason I don't read the Daily Mail.
As for any intolerance shown towards those with Tory-esque views, we might have to wait a while to find out but it'd be interesting to know whether similar levels of intolerance would be shown towards Labour supporters were they to have run the country into the ground over the best part of 15 years.
Edit: I don’t approve of lowering the voting age to 16 partly because I believe children need a period to fully develop their political views.
This implies that people over the age of 16 have more developed political views, which I fear is untrue. They just have less time left to live with the consequences of their decisions!
"Partly”? Why else?
Also general lack of maturity and the fact that they only need to wait 24 months and then they are likely to have about 50 years of voting in front of them.
Why the need to rush.....unless you think they might have changed their veiws 2 years later?
After all there’s a reason I don’t read the Daily Mail.
The reason I sometimes read the Daily Mail is because I am interested in what they have to say. The fact that I am highly unlikely to agree with them is quite irrelevant.
I remember the first time I was in Middlesbrough with gout.
People talking about places they don’t like but still visit.
...like Middlesbrough?
The reason I sometimes read the Daily Mail is because I am interested in what they have to say. The fact that I am highly unlikely to agree with them is quite irrelevant.
Yeah fair enough. This might be a bit head in the sand but I made a decision a number of years ago to cut out spending time on things that made me angry (precipitated by Twitter arguments with people advocating against Cycleway 9 in west London).
Succession only just about makes the cut sometimes tbh.
Also general lack of maturity
I don't know what you mean by this. They can't vote until they've stopped playing with dolls and Lego?
and the fact that they only need to wait 24 months and then they are likely to have about 50 years of voting in front of them.
Why not raise the age to 21 then? or 30? People are living longer on average, if we're setting the voting age at time of expected death then extrapolating backwards 50 years, that's going to keep rising.
Why the need to rush…..unless you think they might have changed their veiws 2 years later?
Well, you said yourself, you weren't sure at 16. If you don't think they might've changed their views two years later then what's the issue with allowing them to vote at 16?
Apologies if it's just me being dense, but none of those arguments make any sense.
Apologies if it’s just me being dense, but none of those arguments make any sense.
Well you will be relieved to learn that it's okay not to agree with me 🙂
Those poor right-wingers completely unable to communicate their ideas and opinions effectively, Just outright silenced and constantly having their freedom of speech stifled…
Haven't you been paying attention? The poor dears are the majority, but they're being drowned out by a minority of vocal lefties because something about the site owners who obvs control all the content on the forum.
Why the need to rush
I see it as a point of principal. We are happy to extract tax from a 16 year old's wages if they get a job and we are even ok as a society with starting them in basic training to learn how to shoot someone if they sign up for the army - It seems a bit weird to not let them actually have a vote.
Well you will be relieved to learn that it’s okay not to agree with me 🙂
Yes, imagine my relief.
It's not that I don't agree with you (in this case). Rather, I don't understand. Young people shouldn't be allowed to vote because they're young?
...I have no interest in ever hearing anything he has to say about anything. IMO he’s a grade A ****. I really don’t want my life inc forums to have anything to do with people like that just ‘for balance’.
Racistist.
No you won’t.
Oh yes you will!
I've been practising wheelies recently, not only that but I've just made myself a bunnyhop bar. Will I have to leave STW?
I stay here for the exciting threads like this one.
/popcorn
Why do you need to have a rigid set of beliefs before you can vote? Or any beliefs at all for that matter?