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I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising but maybe this was necessary for some of the other attendees and I understand that a simple message is key to it landing in a 2hr course. However, the stopping distance must be variable based on vehicle weight, contact points ie tyre/wheel size, size of brakes, electronic aids etc…
Someone needs to offer her a physics course ;o)
No been on one, but now I'm older and hopefully wiser I'm Happy to drive very progressively and within or even below the limit.
Primary motivation is to save fuel and tyre wear etc, but it's also a much less stressful way to drive.
Less stress means better observation and avoidance of hazards, and in the event of an accident, hopefully much less damage or injury.
It's a win win scenario really.
Things that used to wind me up (getting cut up, people pulling out on me etc.) I've learned to just not care about it any more.
Makes for a much happier driving experience.
Someone needs to offer her a physics course ;o)
That's insane! Extreme example but is she saying the stopping distance between a fully laden HGV and a Caterham 7 is the same from 60mph? Lol
See also people with pretty fast cars that buy the cheapest tyres possible.. You've only got to look at tyre tests see the eyebrow raising difference in stopping distances between budjet and premium tyres!
Just a random example https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Summer-Tyre-Market-Overview.htm
Did my second last week as above some interesting facts re stopping distances etc side question do the instructors have a duty to report or just report attendees that appear to admit to dangerous driving or similar crap attitude? A ‘professional’ driver on my course complete dick …if I’m being held up I will tail gate the offender by 1-2ft till they move over. also anti cyclist and pedestrian didn’t agree with new HC laws on vulnerable road users etc
Did my second last week as above some interesting facts re stopping distances etc side question do the instructors have a duty to report or just report attendees that appear to admit to dangerous driving or similar crap attitude? A ‘professional’ driver on my course complete dick …if I’m being held up I will tail gate the offender by 1-2ft till they move over. also anti cyclist and pedestrian didn’t agree with new HC laws on vulnerable road users etc
Doubt they'd do much, as it'll just go down as hearsay or bravado rather than actual evidence for any charges.
From DirectLine : A fifth (21 per cent) of motorists who need glasses or contact lenses always drive without them
That’s a truly scary statistic.
The standard of driving in general is appalling, in my opinon, and while i wouldnt have been best impressed if it had been more arduous when i was getting M|Y license, and i appreciate that a lot of learning is done once youve got your license and are let loose on the roads, i think that the licensing should be much more restrictive.
* - regular retesting
* - license limitation on size of vehicles <3.5T (Engine size, weight, or dimensions) much like with motorbikes, which can be revoked down as well as earnt up
* - Perma-bans for breaking certain rules, or once you reach a certain number of points.
* - a more variable test! you have to do some of your lessons in a van, for instance, and on a bicycle, to get a sense of what other people can and cant see.
obviously MY driving is excellent (maybe?).
I was there because I was caught, fair and square, doing 44 in a 40. I was doing 44 in a 40 because I hadn’t noticed the limit change from 60. I hadn’t noticed it change because I’m human, and make mistakes.
Based on that then it's not all of us who need to retake our tests every 10 years, just folk like you 🙂
From DirectLine : A fifth (21 per cent) of motorists who need glasses or contact lenses always drive without them
That’s a truly scary statistic.
When I learned to drive I didn't need glasses. When I started to need glasses it was just for using computers. At some point my eyes have got worse and I've made the decision to wear them when driving (mostly), but at no point have I been told that I need to wear them when driving.
At my last eye test I specifically asked the question and was told "probably", so it's still not clear (ho-ho), and if the Police stopped me and asked to check my license there's nothing on there to indicate that I need to.
There seems to be a gap in the process there somewhere. How should the driver or the DVLA be notified if circumstances change?
IMO, there should be mandatory training and testing every 10 years.
I agree. Never done a SAC, but I did pass my first Advanced Drivers Test at 18. Cars have not been kind to my family and I take my driving very seriously.
I also agree about mandating a CBT, even on an automatic scooter, just to give pre-drivers a flavour of what vulnerability feels like.
I think it’s a brilliant idea that they are mandatory every 10 years for folks that have previously been caught speeding. These types clearly can’t be trusted to adhere to the rules of the road on an ongoing basis
For those of us that have managed to keep a clean license for best part of 30 years, it’s clear that no such refresher is required however….
Discuss…
😉
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising but maybe this was necessary for some of the other attendees and I understand that a simple message is key to it landing in a 2hr course. However, the stopping distance must be variable based on vehicle weight, contact points ie tyre/wheel size, size of brakes, electronic aids etc…
A sweeping statement scientifically/technically, but maybe what she was getting at was a small car on small wheels exerts less force on the ground through a smaller contact patch, where as a fat range rover with big tyres and more mass on its bigger contact patch is fatter so in the end it all evens out (give or take).
There is also going to be a stopping distance requirement specified in law, that manfacturers build to?
dunno. devils advocate
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/best-and-worst-braking-distances-a2960086475/
save for "sports/sporty" cars, theyre all within a few feet of each other, over 130feet (According to this)
I did one a good few years ago and genuinely found it useful. There's not much to discuss really, they should be a thing that people have to do every five or so years to keep their licence and if you let it lapse you get to do a full re-test instead.
+1 on CBT and chuck in some kind of cycling in traffic thingy too while you're at it.
See also people with pretty fast cars that buy the cheapest tyres possible.. You’ve only got to look at tyre tests see the eyebrow raising difference in stopping distances between budjet and premium tyres!
We have been looking at buying a new car - very noticeable is that "expensive*" cars are being run on LingLong, Landsail and Sailune. I don't get a (new) £25k+ car with every safety aid under the sun, and then run on ditchfinders....
My mum voluntarily gave up her license after she went partially blind in one eye and couldn't judge distances properly anymore.
If she wanted to she could still be driving to this day.
dunno. devils advocate
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/best-and-worst-braking-distances-a2960086475/
save for “sports/sporty” cars, theyre all within a few feet of each other, over 130feet (According to this)
wheras the UK highway code specifies 180 feet
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/what-is-the-stopping-and-braking-distance-of-a-car
theyre all within a few feet of each other, over 130feet (According to this)
That's assuming they are all running the same tyres, among other variables which in reality isn't the case.
I edited my post above, but for illustration... https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Summer-Tyre-Market-Overview.htm
There's a good 5 metre stopping difference between the top of the table and the bottom.
The gap widens further in wet braking performance.
The standard of driving in general is appalling, in my opinon
It is, however it is still a lot better than in many other countries, amazingly enough.
That’s assuming they are all running the same tyres, among other variables which in reality isn’t the case.
I edited my post above, but for illustration… https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Summer-Tyre-Market-Overview.htm
/blockquote>Holy axis manipulation batman....
Scale running from 35 to 41 when the best to worst range is about 35.5 to 40.5. I mean it shows the data quite precisely, but seems to [allow you to subconsciously] miss the bigger picture
It is, however it is still a lot better than in many other countries, amazingly enough.
Yep accident stats in the UK are low compared with most of Europe.
Discuss
Well, I did mine after being caught slightly over the limit along Bath Road in Bristol just past Arno’s Vale. Was I aware of the actual speed limit? No. Why not? Because there weren’t any repeater signs, that I was aware of, and it was during a busy part of the day, and I was just maintaining the speed of the general flow of traffic, ie the same speed as every other car in front and behind. As it was busy, I was far more concerned with what all the other traffic was doing, what with rows of vehicles parked either side of the road, side turnings, etc.
As far as urban roads are concerned, it’s entirely possible to have roads that are, to all intents and purposes, identical, but with different speed limits - the A4 Bath Road in Chippenham has a 30 limit, whereas the A420 Bristol Road, which runs more or less parallel, has a 40 limit. Both are built up, other than the Bristol Road has a small field on one side for a short distance.
Slight hijack, I was driving through a road I’ve not driven before at the weekend, pavement, normal width, lined with houses and marked as a 40, I still can’t work out why it wasn’t a 30.
Exactly my point.
Holy axis manipulation batman….
If you read the preamble, they are the top 20 out of 50 tyres tested.
It's more an illustration really, to demonstrate that tyres are actually a critical component in the overall performance of any given braking system.
My mum voluntarily gave up her license after she went partially blind in one eye and couldn’t judge distances properly anymore.If she wanted to she could still be driving to this day.
My grandfather was pulled over by the police once for driving too slowly - it was a winter night, raining and the glare from oncoming headlights through the raindrops was causing him real difficulties. Can't remember if this was before or after his cataracts operation but either way, it was clear that he simply should not be behind the wheel of a car. It took MONTHS to convince him of this.
The final straw was that insurance simply got too much because on every other journey he'd be hitting a wall, parked car, bollard etc. When he finally sold the car, the wheels were a wreck from being kerbed. But at no point did a doctor say "you must stop driving now". It was left to my Mum and to his next door neighbours to tell him (time and time and time again) that he shouldn't be driving and he took it really badly.
It's quite scary the number of people out there who are in that situation - eyesight, cognitive abilities etc have slowly declined yet they're either blissfully unaware of it or they're actively choosing to ignore it.
wheras the UK highway code specifies 180 feet
> https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/what-is-the-stopping-and-braking-distance-of-a-car
Think that test just includes braking distances, whereas highway code and so on include the reaction distance as well, i.e. time to react plus braking distance.
It is, however it is still a lot better than in many other countries, amazingly enough.
Yep accident stats in the UK are low compared with most of Europe.
Does that mean that they can't be improved?
Well yes! Reaction time is a crucial variable, but if you've got poor tyres your already at a mechanical disadvantage from the get go.
When you think about it, the braking system goes all the way from your eyeballs to the rubber on the road.. With many more variables in between.
If you read the preamble, they are the top 20 out of 50 tyres tested.
It’s more an illustration really, to demonstrate that tyres are actually a critical component in the overall performance of any given braking system.
I'll admit that I had missed it was the top 20 tyres.
But my point is that "illustration" makes it seem like the top tyre is amazing as the line is only a fraction of the length of the worst/20th place tyre. But in reality when you read the axis, it is 12% better.
Now that 12% (less if you include thinking time) could be the difference between killing someone and not touching them, but it is still misrepresenting the data to show the top tyre apparently so vastly superior to the worse ones.
Think that test just includes braking distances, whereas highway code and so on include the reaction distance as well, i.e. time to react plus braking distance.
I'd already taken that off. HC states 18m thinking, 55m (180ft) braking from 60mph.
rigidly dropping to 2nd and 15mph for every roundabout even when clearly clear
I still shudder at the near miss I had when driving up to a local roundabout and only at the last second seeing a road cyclist crossing it at exactly the right speed that meant the road sign was always between my eyes and them... Yikes yikes yikes.
I like 20mph zones (as a car driver) - so much less stress! because it gives you that extra buffer to see things and react before your paths cross. I know this is not a universal attitude 😀
We've just come back from a holiday in Jordan, and although the driving was random and casual to a fault - the hour's drive round the outskirts of Amman was taxing and I was the passenger! - you just could not drop attention ever ever ever - it wasn't aggressive.
Quite a lot of people drove very slowly and would move over to let others pass as a matter of course. People didn't seem fixated on speed or prone to tailgating and although there weren't pedestrian crossings, you could just sort of launch yourself into traffic when an opportunity arose and the cars would accept that and let you through.
Canary Islands as well, drivers just seemed more mellow.
I ♥️ the HC but would love to see a cultural change here to a more chill, co-operative attitude to road use.
The OH had to do the "naughty step" course once - I was gobsmacked as a very calm safe driver - like so many here, the old "caught doing 38 - thought it was 40 zone - this was not correct" story. Said was a good interesting course.
Why do we not do good quality drivers Ed as part of the mandatory curriculum? Teach the "naughty step" course to 10 year olds. Get simulators in primary schools. Establish good habits before the hell of puberty kicks in.
A fair point! But they are just testing tyre performance, to include a subjective variable such as reaction time would make the tests pretty meaningless.
I may have made my point badly, but what I'm trying to say is that you can buy yourself a not insignificant mechanical advantage just by buying better tyres.
I had to do one this year for doing 35 in a 30, I too was surprised by the calibre of other drivers on the course and I would support a retest or something every 10 years or so for drivers.
Agreed. Refresher every ten years and suspend the licence of everyone involved in an accident until they’ve sat a refresher course.
Even the victim?
^by the way, if you are about my age, and educated in England; Science GCSE (mandatory subject) discusses this as part of the curriculum on experimental results and analysis.
That is - the basic context that thinking time is linear to speed, reation time is not; and the overall result is the sum of the two terms.
Of course half the population probably pushed that out of their brain to fill it with the names of love island contestants.
But don't say that it isn't taught.
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising but maybe this was necessary for some of the other attendees and I understand that a simple message is key to it landing in a 2hr course. However, the stopping distance must be variable based on vehicle weight, contact points ie tyre/wheel size, size of brakes, electronic aids etc…
Possibly not wanting to confuse things, just keeping it simple for the hard of thinking, but she was wrong, just simple physics show that differences in weight, mass and coefficient of friction will have a dramatically different result, especially when weather conditions enter into it.
The HC list of stopping distances is, I understand it, years out of date, which Top Gear showed some years back. Unless it’s been updated recently, it goes back to when most cars had drum brakes, radial-ply tyres and no fancy aids. Just differences in tyres make a big difference in braking efficiency; I used to but budget ditch-finders on my old Octavia, but I’ve now got CrossClimate+ on the front of my EcoSport, and there is a significant difference in handling and braking in poor weather.
what I’m trying to say is that you can buy yourself a not insignificant mechanical advantage just by buying better tyres.
This seems like an odd tangent to me.
Why stop at tyres? Why not upgrade pads and rotors, the same as we do on bikes? Or just buy the car with the best braking ability at any given price. Most people are just happy with a car that stops. (I can't remember the last time I had to do anything remotely like an emergency stop.)
Yeah me to – the way in which speed is shed when breaking got me. I can’t remember the exact numbers but it was something like if 2 cars break to a full stop at the same time, one doing 70 and one 100mph, and the car doing 70 stops just before crashing into something, the car doing 100mph is still doing around 70mph when it hits.
Yea i found that interesting and the stuff about the impact forces at different speeds.
Hazy now but i'm pretty sure i never learned about that stuff when i took my test. But i will admit to doing "just enough to pass" (because i was 17)
Does that mean that they can’t be improved?
No, but it does suggest that anyone called the standard 'appauling' or whatever has a rather unusual reference point. It also suggests you'd be into diminishing returns if you've already got one of the lowest accident rates. Assuming reducing accidents is what you're after.
Why stop at tyres? Why not upgrade pads and rotors.. the
An equally valid point but tyres need to be bought more frequently and are a more consumable item. So it's a good way to build in extra safety.
For example I would consider pirelli p6000 suicidaly dangerous in the wet where as something like a conti premium contact could stop you an a 2pence coin, reletivley speaking, the performance difference is staggering but both tyres are perfectly legal.
Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread with tyre chat.
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising
I had that too. I posited that I wasn't driving a Ford Anglia with drum brakes and was talked over with "but thinking time hasn't changed!"
Went on one years ago. Spent the afternoon being patronised and found it utterly pointless. Next time, if there ever is one, I'll happily take the points on my license and thank the lord that I won't have to sit through all that patronising drivel ever again.
^by the way, if you are about my age, and educated in England; Science GCSE (mandatory subject) discusses this as part of the curriculum on experimental results and analysis.
That is – the basic context that thinking time is linear to speed, reation time is not; and the overall result is the sum of the two terms.Of course half the population probably pushed that out of their brain to fill it with the names of love island contestants.
But don’t say that it isn’t taught.
😂 Deary me, that’s a rash assumption you’re making there, assuming that everyone has had the same education that you have! FWIW, I’m 68 in four months, I did physics at school, which was a secondary modern, and I scraped through a grade 5 CSE.
Not to mention bloody patronising and condescending. 🤬
Was I aware of the actual speed limit? No. Why not? Because there weren’t any repeater signs, that I was aware of
There weren't signs, or you didn't see them?
If there aren't repeater signs but there are street lights then it's a 30 limit.
it was during a busy part of the day, and I was just
... daydreaming?
As far as urban roads are concerned, it’s entirely possible to have roads that are, to all intents and purposes, identical, but with different speed limits
... which are posted on little poles at regular intervals if it's not 30.
I did qualify it with saying you needed to be about my age - but if you were, it was included in a mandatory subject.
The modern style of making things relatable to every day life at the expense of "traditional" learning does have some benefits.
Doing physics GCSE about 50 years ago you likely learnt more about pure physics than I did in physics A level.
Even the victim?
Yes even the victim.
I'm happy to admit there's plenty I could have done when running events back in my mind and I've seen enough accidents and near misses to know that the blame rarely lies 100% with one party, regardless of how the police/insurance see it (or are told what's happened)
Quite a lot of people drove very slowly and would move over to let others pass as a matter of course. People didn’t seem fixated on speed or prone to tailgating and although there weren’t pedestrian crossings, you could just sort of launch yourself into traffic when an opportunity arose and the cars would accept that and let you through.
Reminds me of what an Italian friend told me when we were driving over there: "Ignore your mirrors. you concentrate on what's happening in front of you." Makes some sense: If everyone throws all their attention forward, it should all work out.
Someone's pulling out in front of you - check mirrors - where are the following cars, what's safest - brake or swerve into the next lane?
vs
just reacting to what's in front and let everyone react to what's in front of them without splitting their attention between looking ahead, looking behind to the side, assessing different options, then taking action.
Reminds me of what an Italian friend told me when we were driving over there: “Ignore your mirrors. you concentrate on what’s happening in front of you.”.................
You did notice how dented the cars out there are? 😀
Yeah me to – the way in which speed is shed when breaking got me.
Yeah, and it's even more relevant to folk who are happy doing 35 in a 30. If 30 means you just stop in time, 35 means you're possibly still doing 20 when you plough into the kid.
Most professions that involve the use of complicated machinery or techniques in a hazardous environment need some sort of recertification, why not driving a vehicle on the road?
Annual in house safety training, bi-annual external ships lifeboat Coxn refresher, 4 yearly external safety training, 5 yearly confirmation of validating sea time, as the bare minimum to keep doing my job...
And Joe blogs gets to drive manically everyday with no confirmation that he knows that the highway code changed many times since his driving test..
This seems like an odd tangent to me.
Why stop at tyres? Why not upgrade pads and rotors, the same as we do on bikes? Or just buy the car with the best braking ability at any given price. Most people are just happy with a car that stops. (I can’t remember the last time I had to do anything remotely like an emergency stop.)
One could argue that tyres are by far the weak link in the chain? Rotors and pads can be upgraded, but if youre activating your ABS, youre on the limit of the tyres so bigger brakes are going to do nothing for you.
Having said that, i agree entirely. I dont think i drive in a manner where by i could ever get into a situation where i would need to push the brake pedal through the firewall.
Having said that my only vehicle is a Fat Ford Transit, so doesnt lend itself to "spirited" driving.
We get annual driving assessments. A recent thing. The rumour is that after they tried to discipline a driver who had 3 bumps in a short space of time he argued that he hsad never been assessed or offered any training.
At the start of the assessment the instructor told everyone to drive normally. Which was pointless as obviously everyone treated it as a test. 10 year assessments would be the same. Bad habits like speeding would vanish for 45 minutes.
Reminds me of what an Italian friend told me when we were driving over there: “Ignore your mirrors. you concentrate on what’s happening in front of you.” Makes some sense
Nah, it's good to know what's happening around you in case you need to take evasive action. And if course, if you need to change lanes then what's happening behind and alongside you is rather important.
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising but maybe this was necessary for some of the other attendees and I understand that a simple message is key to it landing in a 2hr course. However, the stopping distance must be variable based on vehicle weight, contact points ie tyre/wheel size, size of brakes, electronic aids etc…
It must be part of the training the instructors are given. Mine was absolutely adamant that the laws of physics don’t apply to cars. All i had suggested was that if we can assume that the driver was breaking at the point of impact then the force would be a negative one.
The other part I found irritating was the insistence that no matter how stupid the pedestrian is, eg looking at their phone with headphones on when they step into the road its still the drivers fault.
Random/ten year testing won't change much as we can all behave ourselves when we know we're being watched.
GPS tracker that measures forces of acceleration, braking, cornering and adherence to speed limits with the information used for insurance and tax purposes. Could easily be done with technology in most phones.
Unfortunately we've built our societies to accommodate cars, not people, and as such people feel that driving is their right as they see it as their only option.
The other part I found irritating was the insistence that no matter how stupid the pedestrian is, eg looking at their phone with headphones on when they step into the road its still the drivers fault.
I'm more than happy with that, sure the odd rare case might be just maybe entirely the pedestrians fault there are very few instances where stupidity won't give you a warning. Staring at phones and headphones are generally pretty noticable, everyone knows people at crossings do daft stuff. IF you see a dog or a small child* or a bunch of the yout dicking about you should be ready to stop. I've come to a complete stop on a busy road because a drunk guy was all over the shop and sure enough face planted into the road because that was the only way i could guarantee my behaviour wouldn't hurt someone**
*stupid is the wrong word, just behaving unnexpectedly.
**I'm not claiming to be a perfect or even an average driver (like 70% are), I've made mistakes, i've even started a thread on here about one idiotic mistake I made. But a moment of distraction or stupidity in a car has potentially big consequences for far more than me than an idiot on a phone.
^ Yep, people do stupid stuff. It shouldn't cost you your life. The licenced operator of several tonnes of dangerous machinary, naturally takes the responsibility not to endanger people around them, regardless of their stupidity.
Or just buy the car with the best braking ability at any given price. Most people are just happy with a car that stops. (I can’t remember the last time I had to do anything remotely like an emergency stop.)
Best braking ability is useless if the DOT4 in the system is over 2 years old. First jobs on every new to me car is new branded pads, discs if badly rusted/worn and replacement fluid. Followed by a set of branded tyres (all standard fitment stuff no upgrades). The changes in stopping distance are usually quite marked and the ability to gauge where lock-up will happen is easier too.
Cougar
Full Member
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronisingI had that too. I posited that I wasn’t driving a Ford Anglia with drum brakes and was talked over with “but thinking time hasn’t changed
I did a course in 2007 and remember asking the instructor who was adamant that braking distances hadn't reduced since Ford Anglia days why I'd just been issued with 'Manual for Streets' (joint DfT & DCLG publication) which explicitly revised downwards junction visibility splay requirements to reflect improved braking of vehicles from old DMRB times. I also got told thinking times hadn't changed but couldn't see the point in trying to argue.
She also said that speed cameras were able to tell the speed limit of individual vehicles so on a 60mph speed limit road would flash a vehicle with a 50mph limit doing 51mph but know not to flash those that able to do 60mph doing 60mph. I called bullshit, but didn't want to be 'that guy' so just sat on my hands for the rest of it.
I found getting older, having kids, riding my bikes more and paying for my own fuel have all had a much more profound impact on my driving than being sat in a room for a couple of hours
Best braking ability is useless if the DOT4 in the system is over 2 years old
Disagree with that. Brake fluid doesn't suddenly stop working once it's 2 years old. Your maximum braking potential for braking trailers down alpine passes might be *reduced* somewhat but it's not true to say your braking capability and tyres etc are irrelevant if your fluid is old.
I regularly test the braking capability of my cars (especially since finding a caliper leak, not during an emergency) and my fluid has been very old at times. It doesn't affect the ability to do an emergency stop or negate the quality of your brakes and tyres.
The other part I found irritating was the insistence that no matter how stupid the pedestrian is, eg looking at their phone with headphones on when they step into the road its still the drivers fault.
If we replace "fault" with "responsibility" then yes it is, and indeed THC has just been changed to explicitly assert this.
We can have "who's the biggest idiot?" debates until the cows come home but ultimately if a ton and a half of steel connects with ten stone of meatsack at a speed differential of 40mph+ then there's only going to be one outcome and whose "fault" it may be doesn't change that. The onus is on the motorist to be aware that pedestrians are utter morons and behave accordingly.
The other part I found irritating was the insistence that no matter how stupid the pedestrian is, eg looking at their phone with headphones on when they step into the road its still the drivers fault.
Or we could change the narrative slightly and say that the pedestrian is both blind and deaf.
If you choose to drive a tonne of metal (you don't have to) then you take on responsibility too
If you choose to drive a tonne of metal (you don’t have to) then you take on responsibility too
This is the key factor. Only one person is making the situation dangerous.
speed cameras were able to tell the speed limit of individual vehicles so on a 60mph speed limit road would flash a vehicle with a 50mph limit doing 51mph but know not to flash those that able to do 60mph doing 60mph
I think modern ANPR linked ones check all vehicles speeds. This can be checked against their classification based on the number plate. Although most cameras are set well above 1mph over the limit.
Doing physics GCSE about 50 years ago you likely learnt more about pure physics than I did in physics A level.
Doing GCSEs 50 years ago would be impressive, that was a decade and a half before they were invented. 😁
Random/ten year testing won’t change much as we can all behave ourselves when we know we’re being watched.
I'm not convinced.
There will be an element of 'best behaviour' of course, but as I said earlier the vast majority of attendees on the SACs I sat simply had no clue. Monospeeders don't drive everywhere at 40mph because they think it's a safe choice, they do it because they don't have the remotest notion of what the speed limit on a given piece of tarmac actually is.
It was OK, I did learn what a “dual carriageway” actually is.
I'm intrigued by this. I've heard it mentioned before with respect to speed awareness courses. How do they define dual carriageway?
A dual carriageway has a central reservation or an otherwise physical barrier separating opposing traffic flow. Despite popular misconceptions it's bog all to do with the number of lanes.
(That's not how 'they' define it, that's how it's defined.)
There will be an element of ‘best behaviour’ of course, but as I said earlier the vast majority of attendees on the SACs I sat simply had no clue. Monospeeders don’t drive everywhere at 40mph because they think it’s a safe choice, they do it because they don’t have the remotest notion of what the speed limit on a given piece of tarmac actually is.
I did one about 8 years ago and at the start each and every one of us had to explain how we got caught. I was last, and had just listened to each person say how they'd no idea that they were speeding.
The Instructor came to me and I just said I was speeding and knew it, I had the cruise control set at 80 (A449 in South Wales for those that know it).
The room went silent...
The dual carriageway thing confused a lot of people on my course too! One guy was very confused that a NSL road could switch from a single to a dual one and back without needing any signs to say the limit had changed.
At the start of the assessment the instructor told everyone to drive normally. Which was pointless as obviously everyone treated it as a test. 10 year assessments would be the same. Bad habits like speeding would vanish for 45 minutes.
Don't forget a lot of people have the attention span of a goldfish so it won't take long for them to be forgetting to indicate, cutting corners, not observing other traffic and in some cases twitching to grab their phone. I used to do the odd driving assessment at my old job and the amount of times the people driving (usually just after their interview so completely in the 'make a good inpression' mindset) would forget they were being watched by me in the passenger seat and automatically check their phone after it beeps or speed around the industrial estate was unreal. The best was one who didn't put their seatbelt on and spent the whole drive using just one hand at the 12 o'clock position, never indicated once.
A vast amount of drivers would fail even a basic assessment.
Ive always thought its nuts we don't all have to reapply for driving licenses every 10yrs or so - with increasing frequency as age becomes an issue....
Drivers would have to pay for the test, government would make a profit, accidents would reduce, driving standards would increase.... Society would benefit...
Not something many people would vote for though
I used to do the odd driving assessment at my old job
A vast amount of drivers would fail even a basic assessment.
Yup. i used to do the assessments for access to certain classes of company cars, quite a simple checklist of competencies. Far easier to pass than an EU/UK driving test, probably as it was derived from a US checklist.
Used to fail about 30%. They'd then get in their own cars and drive back to the office and complain to their manager about being failed for something "that really didn't matter".
Had one guy who actually managed to persuade his manager to sign off anyway (at the time, it was ultimately the managers responsibility, not mine), he then promptly lost his license, while in a company car.
These days you have to go and do a proper test, with someone trained to do it. Rather than driving around with a senior engineer who has been told it's his job to make sure they're safe. Then they update your passcard, manager never gets involved. Or me, thankfully.
Ive always thought its nuts we don’t all have to reapply for driving licenses every 10yrs or so – with increasing frequency as age becomes an issue….
It then becomes an infrastructure issue though. I passed my test in 1990, back then the waiting list for a test was something like six weeks and I doubt that it's drastically changed for the better since then. Retests every ten years (which is something I am very much in favour of BTW) would require, what, a 600% increase in driving examiners alone. Possible perhaps, but not trivial to implement.
Maybe what's needed is something like the SAC but without such a chubby for speed limits. Who's picked up THC since they passed their test? Not many I'll wager. Eg, there's people driving today who demonstrably don't know how mini roundabouts work because they didn't exist when they passed their test. And there's the classic we all know of course, "you don't pay road tax!" which was abolished before anyone driving today was born. Perhaps some sort of group-based refresher scheme might work?
Who’s picked up THC since they passed their test? Not many I’ll wager. Eg, there’s people driving today who demonstrably don’t know how mini roundabouts work because they didn’t exist when they passed their test.
Im early 50s and there were no roundabouts (mini or otherwise) in the town where I passed my test in 1988. Only 1 set of traffic lights as well, and no dual carriageways any where near. I suspect plenty of people are of a similar age and have no idea about such things (apart from a small bypass, the nearest dual carriageway is still over 40 miles away, and I know people younger than me that don't drive on motorways...)
THC since they passed their test? Not many I’ll wager.
I bought one a while back to torment my daughter (who was taking her test at the time) I was surprisingly OK. and I hadn't looked at it since I passed my test in the late 80's. My wife stole it as she's managed to get a license in the UK because; Canada. And is driving more.
I know people younger than me that don’t drive on motorways…)
I can see why though, when i passed my test i can remember getting on the recently built dual around my small town, and encouraged by my old man; "pressing on" until we got to 70 and frankly being more than a little bit scared and wondered how people manage to process anything at that speed.
Not something many people would vote for though
Probably because we're one of the safest countries in the world, for ALL road users - so the costs would outweigh the benefits.
And before you all jump down my throats over saving deaths, if we wanted to really save lives, about 50x's the number of road deaths, just stop folk smoking.
That’s not how ‘they’ define it, that’s how it’s defined.
Well quite. But how do "they" define it?
if we wanted to really save lives, about 50x’s the number of road deaths, just stop folk smoking.
It would be interesting (and probably impossible) to work out the health costs of bad driving. Pollution from speeding, people put off walking and cycling, etc
Perhaps some sort of group-based refresher scheme might work?
Hmm how's about starting by selecting/targeting those who need it most 🤔
Not sure why everyone is coming up with 10 years for anything. I did a SAC 10 years ago and my driving changed for about a week and then was back to how it was before.
Agree with others that the course was actually fairly interesting but it had no bearing on my driving.
The only thing that would change my driving is working average speed cameras everywhere it would be possible to have them. Imagine that would be the case for others too and clearly only stops the speeding part of bad driving.
Who’s picked up THC since they passed their test? Not many I’ll wager.
From the frothing gammon comments on any newspaper article anywhere in the country about highway code changes or literally any article to do with cycling (no matter how benign), there are a LOT of drivers who not only don't know their HC but are very keen to showcase their complete lack of knowledge - helmets, 2-abreast, cycle lanes, road tax, cycling on pavements, road tax, insurance, red lights, road tax, hi-vis, lights...
It's amazing how wrong they can actually be at times. And then baffling to think that they're actually allowed to drive.
The only thing that would change my driving is working average speed cameras everywhere it would be possible to have them. Imagine that would be the case for others too and clearly only stops the speeding part of bad driving.
No need when a tracker could be fitted to everyone's car, had one in my co car with threat of sanctions if flagged up as speeding, did the job, could probably do with one on the motorbike 🤔
Eg, there’s people driving today who demonstrably don’t know how mini roundabouts work because they didn’t exist when they passed their test
Its not that long ago that they put a roundabout in Stornoway and stationed the Polis at it to teach drivers how to use it as it was the first/only one in the Outer Hebrides. 😀