[Closed] "I asked God to help me"

highly unlikely that the current versions of any Bible or other religious script that has been through multiple translations and edits should be taken at face value.

Yes, I've always understood the classical religious texts as a starting point for (theological) discussion rather than a verbatim account of anything.

Ok - so you simply believe the bits that are convenient to believe in.

So infact to you the bible is not the word of God. So if some of it is not to be believed then how do you decide which bits to believe? the bits you like? I think I shall call myself a Christian but ignore the ten commandments. they are too inconvenient.

Are homosexuals and abomination to be killed?

Are homosexuals and abomination to be killed?

You will find that the Nazis killed plenty of homosexuals without subscribing to the old Abrahamic religions.

Hence the simple illustration of 40 days and nights. To a modern reader (ok perhaps not Theresa April) that may mean 40 calendar days. To a Jewish reader it can equally mean merely a long time.

Yep. Numbers were often used to convey a meaning rather than being exact numbers.

Are homosexuals and abomination to be killed?

Gone off topic a bit there I think.

Who is "We" exactly? Are you all typing from the same keyboard?

"We" being "people who think that the BBT is the best explanation we have currently."

The big bang theory implies that Matter, Space and Time was suddenly created.

Good grief man. No, it doesn't. It simply doesn't. I don't know how I can be any clearer. The failure to understand this basic concept is yours, not mine. You might not agree with it, that's fine, but continually asserting something that simply isn't true makes you look like either a troll or a fool.

Gone off topic a bit there I think.

Conveniently avoids the question, too.

badnewz, what are your views on homosexuality?

Why do you persist with this TJ - ask a vicar if it's that important to you? As I said before, never a good idea to assume what other people believe or don't believe. It "can" make one look a little silly.

fwiw I have made my views on homosexuality known in the past and from what I remember they were very close to yours. So again, why he question?

Spin - the point being that is in the bible. So it illustrates the point that most people claiming to be Christians infact pick and chose which bits of the bible to believe in.

The question then is why believe any of it if you can chose to disbelieve some of it.

It shows the fundamental hypocrisy here

The big bang theory implies that Matter, Space and Time was suddenly created

I thought that the dimensions of space and time did suddenly come into existence at that point.

Runs off to check books again...

Teamhurtmore - because your pick and mix approach to the truthfulness of the bible and to which bits of it to follow shows the massive hypocrisy inherent in your position.

You claim to be rational and to have approached your religion with critical thinking - I am pointing out the inherent irrationality of your stance.

So - from what you said here you chose to only believe some parts of the bible. How do you decide which parts to believe?

Ok - so you simply believe the bits that are convenient to believe in.

No, (if you mean me) - I have read most of the major religious texts in detail and in several translations.
I have used them to think more deeply about the nature of life, the question of man's existence, the possibility of an eternal "soul" and how this relates to my own life.

All religious texts represent (to me) a significant part of man's social, intellectual and philosophical development - what any individual may gain from them is matter for them to decide using whatever values, opinions and insights they have.

I don't comment on what other people choose to bring to their lives from these works, but respect their decisions and right to choose their own beliefs and values.

badnewz, what are your views on homosexuality?

Well, as I said before I went to Oxford. We practically invented it there, along with the Greeks.

It is not an issue for me - although in other respects I am a social conservative. I came from a relatively poor background, and saw the damage which the liberal and selfish ideologies from the 1960s did to those communities, particularly destroying the family unit.

hilldodger not you - aimed at teamhurtmore.

In many ways i'm sorry to play this game but badnewz, the Jewish people are an obscure people in one location and Jesus only revealed himself to them . Why for the bulk of human history did god hide his light from the peoples of Asia Australia Europe Africa the Americas etc . Surely an all knowing all powerfull all present divinity would be globally present not just a secret for some sheep farmers and ex slaves in the middle east to slowly spread .

TJ pls tell me what my religion is? I would be interested to know especially as I am supposed to be a hypocrite (little clue, I have never read the whole Bible or the Koran or the Bhagvad Gita, but have read parts of all of them.) I have however been very interested to learn from an indoctrinated minor about how these texts can be interpreted very differently though. Always good to debate things except with the narrow minded

Edit: interesting comments hill dodger sounds like we have common thoughts

TandemJeremy - Member
hilldodger not you...

:phew: anyway surely pick'n'mix died out with the demise of Woolworths 😀

In many ways i'm sorry to play this game but badnewz, the Jewish people are an obscure people in one location and Jesus only revealed himself to them . Why for the bulk of human history did god hide his light from the peoples of Asia Australia Europe Africa the Americas etc . Surely an all knowing all powerfull all present divinity would be globally present not just a secret for some sheep farmers and ex slaves in the middle east to slowly spread .

Yes, I don't think He did. I subscribe to the one light, many lamps concept. The reason we know so much about God from the Jewish tradition is because they were an advanced culture, very literate.

Teamhurtmore - you claimed to be a Christian last week did you not?

500

I would be very surprised (as I have hinted already in his thread). Nice to be called a hypocrite though.

( Anyway don't want to be drawn into another banning courtesy of your misinformed comments again, so pls drop this)

At this point I'd like to ask: What Would Feynman Say?

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."

I've posted that on here before but it gets to the nub of the problem I have with at least Abrahamic religion.

It does not of course preclude the existance of some form of superior being.

At this point I'd like to ask: What Would Feynman Say

teamhurtmore - Member

I would be very surprised (as I have hinted already in his thread). So I am a hypocrite....hmmmm?

"Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!"

I like the way you blame me for your banning - I don't blame you for mine - I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions

I take it all back - not everyone has learned from their recent bans 😉

TJ, with respect, your debating style does us no favours.

It is a shame when potentially interesting discussions descend into name calling, why oh why TJ do you have to keep doing it....

..Good night, and may your God go with you

[img] [/img]

Hilldodger -

i do apologise for that to you

I allowed teamhurtmore to get under my skin which I should not. However I stand by my assessment of him. the fundamental dishonsety of his appraoch is infuriating

with that I will leave this as I should have done the moment he appeared on the thread.

Teamhurtmore. In the slight of chance that you have missed TJs arguments on this sort if thread they go like this:

Are homosexuals good or bad? If bad then you have no place in modern society. If good then you disagree with what the bible says and therefore aren't Christian. You can't win so it's best not to bother.

Shame really as the discussion started to get interesting after page 5 which often seems to happen. Good job though and your posts are appreciated. The idea that the bible is a collection of texts that need interpreting isn't one that lends itself easily to discussion like this

I wonder idly if part of the problem is that some of us are perhaps judging 'all Xians' by the beliefs and actions of the US bible belt fundies.

It must be a tough one to consolidate as a Christian; either the Bible is the word of god or it isn't. If it is, we're in "god hates fags" territory; if it's not, then it's a strange starting point to base a belief on. If you accept that it's a book of parables designed to lead a better life then that makes some sense, but kind of negates the god aspect from it. Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

Leffeboy - no the point is this

Either the bible is the word of god and should be believed in its entirety or it is not. If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

An alternative point of view is that 'scriptures' are the collection of documents considered to be inspired by God in some way. That might be either by being written by someone who was in direct contact with Jesus, written by one of the prophets or maybe written by someone that God is considered to have spoken to directly. Of course deciding which of these documents is authoritative enough to be included causes some problems? In many cases saying that someone 'wrote' a book is also incorrect, especially for the Old Testament, where the stories may be stories about someone rather that written by them.

teamhurtmore - Member

( Anyway don't want to be drawn into another banning courtesy of your misinformed comments again, so pls drop this)

You seemed obsessed with not getting banned again teamhurtmore, relax mate - it's good to let your pent up frustrations out.

And with 15 pages this thread certainly appears to have been the catalyses for releasing some pent up frustrations.

Perhaps if STW discussed religion a little more often people wouldn't feel the need to keep their views on religion bottled up for so long 💡

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

Slavoj Zizek thinks that is essential:

Either the bible is the word of god and should be believed in its entirety or it is not. If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

Funny that an atheist is now pronouncing on theological issues, isn't it?

If you accept that it's a book of parables designed to lead a better life then that makes some sense, but kind of negates the god aspect from it. Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

There was that bishop, wasn't there? And btw I've spoken to quite a few Christians who consider the bible to be a set of parables or writings by humans. Doesn't preclude the existence of God, does it? Now we're getting into some realistic shades of grey, and looking at human interpretations of scripture and religion.

Surely it's everyone's perogative to interpret the bible as they see fit. Do you also have to go to Church every Sunday to be a Christian?

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

That only undermines the notion that it is the word of god.

Individual sections still retain their value as moral / instructional tales.

Indeed cougar and these are some of the interesting questions even for non-Christians. Take the parallels in the NT and how they are to be interpreted. Was Jesus indeed fulfilling the prophecies of the OT or were they all post-event justifications. Does it matter? what does the word Hosanna mean in the Easter story? The one that people are told in Sunday School or something completely different? I suppose it's like studying literature or history, so much more to understand and debate that seems at face value.

Thanks Leffe and Ernie - don't want to miss the bike forum. Too much to learn!!!!

So then - the bible is not the word of God? Its actually people who interpret it and tell you which bits to follow and believe - so it has no more validity that any other book written by fallible people?

so it has no more validity that any other book written by fallible people

Long usage has given it great validity.

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

I think it is the other way round. You can believe in God without being a Christian (eg. Jews). To be a Christian you also have to add Jesus to the equation and believe that he is related.

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

There are secular Jews so why not secular christians?

Doesn't preclude the existence of God, does it?

No, but it calls into question one of the reasons for believing in the first place (ie, 'it says so in the bible'), does it not?

looking at human interpretations of scripture and religion.

Is there any other way of looking at it? Human interpretation is all we have.

There are secular Jews so why not secular christians?

Is a secular Christian not just the start person who classifies themselves as a Christian because they live in a nominally christian country but doesn't necessarily attend church other that feast days (not that church attendance has anything to do with whether or not you actually believe)

I don't know but I'd say a secular christian would need to be a bit more than what you say.

Someone observes christian principles, practices and festivals but who doesn't believe in the god of the bible.

This probably describes quite a few bishops.

No, but it calls into question one of the reasons for believing in the first place (ie, 'it says so in the bible'), does it not?

Interesting one. I'm not sure if people first believe there might be a god and then look for sources of info. of what he must be like (including the bible) or if people only believe there is a God because the bible says so. People believed there was a god before the bible was written down so I'm not sure that the bible is why people believe

I would liked to of read this thread, then it gets taking over by the usual suspects squabbling, why don't the mods keep threads alive but delete & bar these individuals from threads that they turn into there own self loathing of others opinions.

Spin - that was what I was trying to say but failed unfortunately. I'm not sure there are bishops who don't believe but there are certainly clergy.

why don't the mods keep threads alive but delete & bar these individuals from threads that they turn into there own self loathing of others opinions.

Because censorship is a greater evil that putting up with a few muppets.

People believed there was a god before the bible was written down so I'm not sure that the bible is why people believe

Historically maybe not, but it's oft cited as why people believe currently.

Before the bible, people believed in all sorts of things. I always wondered why a religious person would choose, say, a Christian god over the polytheic views of the Romans or the vikings say. If you told someone you believed in Thor and Odin, you'd get laughed at; conversely, it's not likely to see Jehova cropping up as an Avenger any time soon.

whatever floats yer boat really isn't it, [u]so long as no one else is hurt[/u], what does it matter what you believe! who cares? not me. But when your belief system impedes or is destructive to another persons freedoms, then it becomes a problem. Personally - the vehement "I AM right and you are wrong" sort of belief in anything religious is for egotists and the small minded. Same goes for right-on militant atheists, although this makes sense to me http://www.humanism.org.uk/home

Cougar - part of what you say was summed up well by that chap Dawkins to paraphrase - believers are atheistic about the vast majority of gods I just go one god further.

Whether you believe in any God or none the length of this thread suggests that religion isn't going away any time soon 🙁

[img] [/img]

Historically maybe not, but it's oft cited as why people believe currently.

Really?

Really?

No.

believe in yourselves guys.. it's what Jesus would have wanted

Yes it is and haves been on this thread and on previous ones. this is one of the key points to this argument. to condense it

non believer " why do you say we have to do this?"
Believer "'cos it says so in the bible"
NB " do we have to do everything it says in the bible" ( point about gays/ abomination)
B " no we can pick and chose bits"
NB "how do yo know which bits to obey then?"

That doesn't say anything about it being "why people believe"

You haven't said anything about the Bible being the reason that people have faith in something that can't be proven.

TEEJ, it's a red herring, WGAS whats in the bible. Once you go down the road of beliving in god, all relgious behaviour after that is just a symptom of mental deficiency, so expecting rational behaviour from god botherers is pointless.

edit - as nealglover said..

I'm looking forward to badnewz returning and demonstrating just how deeply the "faith" meme can sink it's hooks and prevent the understanding that a penguin is not a grapefruit, despite the best efforts of rationalists (such as the heroic Cougar) to help.

non believer " why do you say we have to do this?"
Believer "'cos it says so in the bible"
NB " do we have to do everything it says in the bible" ( point about gays/ abomination)
B " no we can pick and chose bits"
NB "how do yo know which bits to obey then?"

You choose the bits you like. Once you decide that the bible isn't the inerrant word of God then it's perfectly valid to interpret it as you see fit.

Biblical inerrancy is NOT a central tenet of Christianity. I get the impression TJ that you are not particularly knowledgeable in this area.

The sloughing off of the "bad" bits of the chosen "Holy Book" always follows the advances of secular morality.

This happens slowly though, as religion is highly resistant to change from outside it's boundaries in the society or wider secular landscape in which it squats.

Molgrips - you miss the points.

some Christians claim the bible is the literal word of god

However if you accept

Once you decide that the bible isn't the inerrant word of God then it's perfectly valid to interpret it as you see fit.

this is the crux of a major logical fallacy.

You cannot say - this bit can be ignore and this but must be obeyed with any intellectual rigour and honesty. its either eh word of god or it is not - if you can ignore some bits then what is to stop you ignoring other bits you find inconvenient - like a rich man getting into heaven for example - Cameron claims to be a Christian but he is a tax avoiding multimillionare. Incompatible with Christ teaching.

this is the crux of a major logical fallacy.

No it isn't, its one tiny spin off, of millions, that hail down from the enormous logical fallacy of beliving in soemthing that no one prove exists, becasue no non can prove it doesnt exist. See the wood man not the trees.

[I think Teej has me on his ignore/blocklistthingy]

No it isn't, its one tiny spin off, of millions, that hail down from the enormous logical fallacy of beliving in soemthing that no one prove exists, becasue no non can prove it doesnt exist.

I don't understand this sentence.

@Toys19

Your posts are simply nasty and unbecoming. There are plenty of representatives of both sides of the 'God debate' on this forum - and this thread in particular - but on the few occasions I have dropped in to see what's going on, your words have been nothing but ad hominem attacks on believers.

Grow up.

Or maybe you'd like to travel to the forests of South America and explain to the native tribes that believe in some metaphysical reality beyond what they see how they are either 'mentally deficient, disingenuous, or deluded'.

You are acting like a fundamentalist, imperialist prick not dissimilar to the way in which you cast 'god-botherers'.

I never thought I would say this, but Mr Woppit, whose views on religion have been made plenty clear in past debates is a model of charity compared to you.

Down with this sort of thing.

sorry written in haste, I'll attempt a rewrite:

No it isn't, its one tiny spin off, of millions, that hail down from the enormous logical fallacy of beliving that god exists purely because there is no way of proving that he doesnt exist. (that despite the fact that science (which is essentially the whole basis of human logic and technology and understanding of the universe around us) relies on proof of existence not proof of non existence, and there is no evidence to prove god exists)

People believed there was a god before the bible was written down so I'm not sure that the bible is why people believe

TJ. The issue was wether the Bible is the thing that makes people believe in god.

Your comments about picking bits of the bible are irrelevant to that.

The issue was wether the Bible is the thing that makes people believe in god.

I've heard, usually Christians in the US to be fair, respond to "why do you think this" with "because it says so in the Bible."

If I were a betting man though, I'd hazard that this isn't strictly true. They probably believe in god because it's been hammered into them throughout their childhood.

Anecdotally, the circular reasoning of using god and the bible as mutual proof of each other does seem to be a largely stateside approach IME.

@ saxon rider, thanks I hadn't intended on being becoming to you in any way, my experience and that of millions of others is that religion is nasty, or results in nastiness. And your south american peoples? Well this is exactly what they are

deluded

very poorly informed/brainwashed

Well, luckily, earlier I defined anyone who believes in a god/gods as either stupid, emotionally retarded, mentally ill, very poorly informed/brainwashed or just disingenuous.

There have been plenty of ad hominen attacks on both sides. Ad hominem as you know is a logical fallacy, but frankly it is neccesary because unfortunatly logic is failing here as people are either ignoring logic or are

stupid, emotionally retarded, mentally ill, very poorly informed/brainwashed or just disingenuous.

the the bible no longer has any legitimacy as it is all down to interpretation by fallible humans.

This has been discussed for thousands of years, seriously. Perhaps do some reading around? You make valid points, but again the same ones that have been made a million times before. One of the features of Christianity seems to be a certain amount of flexibility.

Logically speaking, if you consider the bible to be the work of man but inspired by God, then you may read the bible and look for God's message in it. It's not unreasonable to expect words of some value to be in there.

As I understand it the Jewish tradition is one of intellectual discourse and writing, and the bible is made up of these writings. That's why it's made up of books that have people's names. People are trying to figure out what God is all about. Even after Jesus there are lots of accounts of Jesus' life and interpretations of what he did (more than just the four that made it into the modern Bible) so there is tons of scope for interpretation based on the human accounts.

One version of events goes like this:

God does stuff
God talks to people
People write stuff down
People argue over it
People decide which books are important and which are not
People publish, distribute and translate the important bits
People later come to like certain people's writings and not others

So, given how many people are involved here after God takes a step back, it's not unreasonable to consider personal interpretation as a valid course.

:pops in to thread sees the haterz squabbling amongst themselves, chuckles and mooches off:

😆

beliving that god exists purely because there is no way of proving that he doesnt exist

That's not why people believe in God. They believe either because they are told to or because they like the idea, afaik.

Logic and science are very important to some people, but less so others. I think this is what some of you struggle with.

So, given how many people are involved here after God takes a step back, it's not unreasonable to consider personal interpretation as a valid course.

Of course. But then, as TJ and his sledgehammer are trying to say, if you accept that then the Bible loses its potency. It's no longer a holy book, it's a book of best guesses made by men, based on stories they'd heard hundreds of years ago, passed down by word of mouth between generations before anything got written down. Embellished with each telling.

Which, IMHO, is a pretty unreliable foundation to be building a supposedly unshakable belief system on. No wonder they refer to it as 'faith', you'd have to take a lot of it on faith in order to get anywhere.

Logic and science are very important to some people, but less so others.

it doesn't matter wether others don't see it as important if we let lack of logic rule then we end up with life prior to the enlightenment where religous leaders can abuse power in the name of god and do whatever they jolly well like.

molgrips - Member
Logic and science are very important to some people, but less so others. I think this is what some of you struggle with.

Exactly 🙂
logic is a construct of the human intellect, not a "real thing"

I'm sure (well hope I guess) that many of the haterz have room in their lives for things that aren't in accord with a rigidly deterministic logical system - art, poetry, human emotion, where's the logic in those......

toys19 - Member

Logic and science are very important to some people, but less so others.

it doesn't matter wether others don't see it as important if we let lack of logic rule then we end up with life prior to the enlightenment where religous leaders can abuse power in the name of god and do whatever they jolly well like.

And so passes another product of the British schools' history curriculum.

I bet you know a lot about the Nazis, though.

toys19 - Member

if we let lack of logic rule then we end up with life prior to the enlightenment where religous leaders can abuse power in the name of god and do whatever they jolly well like.

As opposed to a life where political leaders can abuse power in the name of progress, economics and security needs and do whatever they jolly well like.