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Now, I haven't read the full article in The Sun, but the big headline splashed across Fabrice Muamba's face on the front is "I asked God to Help me, and he didn't let me down".
Dunno about you, but if I was any of the medical staff involved in his recovery, I'd feel pretty peeved at that. And if you think I'm trolling, [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446579807 ]this guy[/url] already lives under my bridge.
Off for a ride without God's help to get me round. Grrr.
I've had people say that when I've helped them, it's there belief and that's all there is to it. They do thank the people who helped them too.
BEyond belief for me also.
that's strange i thought religion was a choice of the individual,
I don't believe in religion but when i was in hospital earlier this month having 12hr surgery to save my smashed arm my 'god bothering' mother in law prayed for me every night, i cried when i finally spoke
to her after the hospital let me go not because i believed that god may have helped but because she cared enough to do it and it didn't matter that it was her faith and not mine,
Fabris got a lot of love from people like me, i hate football, it's Sh1t, but to see that guy pull through that gave me both faith in medicine and faith in the powers of love and good feeling,
you might want to have a little think about that mate,
Regardless of how it all worked out, he's been a lucky lad. I bet he's just as certain as the rest of us that god alone didn't save him, but in his eyes, god obviously helped.
It must be fantastic to have that much belief/faith.
I think it's pretty well accepted that a belief or positive outlook will help you get better.
The full article in The Sun says that on the morning of the game he prayed for God's protection. The subsequent events sound more like a smiting to me.
Putting that aside, it's perfectly possible to believe in God while thanking the skilled professionals who saved his life. You just believe that God made sure there was a cardiologist in the crowd.
Lots of us don't believe in a bloke with a beard looking down on us giving out luck or pestilence. However if folk draw comfort or fortitude by appealing to "something external to themselves" then there is no harm. To me its no different to crossing your fingers or making a wish. I am an athiest, but this Dawkins led neo-athiesm is almost as offensive as the religious nutters we see at the fringes of all beliefs.
Whatever happened to live and let live?
It wouldn't bother me in the slightest and probably wouldn't even cross my mind. I'm happy for people to have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. As mentioned above I'm sure he thanked the staff too so why would it matter he also thanked his God?
I think I'd want to have a word with this god dude about the initial breakdown that caused the problem. 🙁
Whatever happened to live and let live?
Religion put an end to it.... 🙂
Funny how they never see God as the reason they got ill/hurt/killed, only the getting better part.....
Anyone else praying for Jimmy's refund? 😉
You just believe that God made sure there was a cardiologist in the crowd.
You made my point for me
So this god he worships has got time to save a millionaire footballer's life, but hasn't got around to telling the pope to allow the use of condoms which could potentially have saved over 20 million lives by preventing the spread of AIDS.
I think it's pretty well accepted that a belief or positive outlook will help you get better.
Is it?
I can imagine that a positive outlook (based on faith or not) might result in someone being more diligent in attending treatment, taking medication or taking an active interest in their treatment but does 'positivity' in isolation have any quantified effect?
You just believe that God made sure there was a cardiologist in the crowd.You made my point for me
What an idiot this god thing is, then. It "intelligently designs" a human that has a near fatal heart attack and to cover for it's incompetence rigs the situation to cope with the results of it's own failure.
Why anyone would want to worship a buffoon like that is beyond me.
He was saved by medical science. I'm happy for him, but please - keep your superstitious garbage to yourself.
Another good reason not to read the Sun.
Higgo I don't know what research has been done, just something I've heard from my dad among others.
just out of interest is anyone informed as to the correct medical diagnosis of the cardiac event that lead to Muambas cardiac arrest whilst playing?
I needed god's help once.....I got an answer phone message.
This thread is dissapointing, I was expecting you to tell us about how Realman came to your house with cash, chocolates, a bottle of whisky, a written apology and a red bow around his little willy..
After spending four months in hospital for the first 108 days of my sons life, I came to the following conclusions about god.
Either
A: there is no god, we're on our own.
B: there is a god, and he doesn't give a shit. We're on our own.
Either way, I'll put my faith in medical science.
I think it's pretty well accepted that a belief or positive outlook will help you get better.
Now here's an interesting thing. I have an uncle, who is/was Professor of Physics at San Diego University, so he's a pretty well educated guy, definitely at the right had end of the curve IQ wise, also ran his own computer software business for 30 years blah blah blah.
He's also Christian and very interested in empirical aspects of religion.
One of the things he's very keen on quoting is empirical research that seems to show the power of prayer. Two patient groups being treated for various conditions were studied. One group was 'prayed for' the other wasn't. The groups were balanced for condition, age, gender, ethnicity etc.
The results show a slight, but consistent and statistically significant positive outcome in the patient group that was prayed for versus the control group that wasn't.
More bizzarely, the experiment is blind, i.e. the patient group being prayed for didn't know they were being prayed for.
I haven't read the research myself but my uncle has just published a book on the whole subject so I imagine it's quoted in there. I will find it and post the link.
A: there is no god, we're on our own.
B: there is a god, and he doesn't give a shit. We're on our own.
Jambo that's pretty much the conclusion I've reached, except that in the second part I reason that there is a God, but as long as we lead 'good' lives, he doesn't care what we believe in.
Some humans feel the need, when confronted with confusing, unexplained circumstances, to draw on the idea of a higher power. It's a common aspect of cultures across the globe.
If Muamba feels comforted by this, then fair play to him. He's been through a frightening experience:
“I saw two Scott Parkers then two Luka Modrics".
I'd certainly be looking for any crumb of comfort if that happened to me.
And if you think I'm trolling, this guy already lives under my bridge.
Hitch is god!
I'm pretty sure that if I'd been lying about with a face like a smacked arse, that I'd have spent a lot longer than 9 weeks in hospital. Whether they just say it, or believe it, alot of the staff in intensive care talked to me about determination.I think it's pretty well accepted that a belief or positive outlook will help you get better.
Months after I got out, my mother in law asked if I prayed when I was in, I thought at the time that it was odd, as she knew I wasn't religious. But it seems that it's as strange to her that I REALLY don't believe, as it is to me that she does.
Jimmy, I would imagone the medical "professionals" are not as small minded as you.
The results show a slight, but consistent and statistically significant positive outcome in the patient group that was prayed for versus the control group that wasn't.
Nope. See this link. This is from an organisation who's sole reason detre is to promote Theism in Science, the "Templeton Foundation". Even THEY cn't find a correlation, after having found fault with previous experiments' processes.
http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/press_releases/060407step.html
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Hitch is god!
I'd certainly be looking for any crumb of comfort if that happened to me.
Christopher remained an atheist right up to the end, still working on his last article as his family was travelling to the cancer ward to say their goodbyes.
Belief in God is the same as Orange 5 ownership.
... and I don't quite see the point of that photo of the footballer, to be honest. Is that a command? Has he got another one that says "Sacrifice a Goat for Muamba"?
Atheism is no different to religion. They're both about a person holding beliefs. Only atheists seem to bang their drum that little bit louder.
... and I don't quite see the point of that photo of the footballer
Mr Muambas close friends obviously knew he was religious. So it's probably no surprise hes now thanking his god.
Atheism is no different to religion.
Comedy genius... 😆
Just wait till morning mass finished mr woppit
Nope. See this link.
Thanks Whoppit - I was never really convinced myself and hadn't seen the original research. I wasn't taking my uncle's word for it, just relaying on the basis that he was credible in his account of it. I'll read the research you posted in the link. Thanks again.
You're welcome geetee. Even the cleverest people can colour outcomes with unconcious expectations - you're in Occ Psych, right?
Atheism is no different to religion. They're both about a person holding beliefs. Only atheists seem to bang their drum that little bit louder.
As an atheist, I beg to differ - it is actually an absence of belief. I think many atheists would be quite disturbed to be lumped into the same group as those with "faith".
To quote the most eloquent Hitch, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and "that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"- I would propose both of these apply to God.
roger the cat exactly
atheisim is about only believing evidence, religion is about only believing made up bullshit that suits your world view
Only atheists seem to bang their drum that little bit louder.
You would have to be completely ignorant not to notice how religion is pushed, religious schools, religious programming on TV, religious overtures and prayers in many government ceremonies, bishops in the house of lords, God save the Queen is the national anthem. Maybe you could point out the atheist equivalents.
Funny how it's the atheists that seem to feel the need to make so much noise.
What is wrong with live and let live. He has his beliefs as many do. He is doing no harm.
What is it that they say about football, religion and politics?
Now, that David Cameron........
Funny how it's the atheists that seem to feel the need to make so much noise.
Coyote in "inability to follow the argument even as far as reading the last post" shocka...
Funny how it's the atheists that seem to feel the need to make so much noise.
Has an atheist ever knocked on your door and tried to foist his non belief on you?
Has an atheist ever knocked on your door and tried to foist his non belief on you?
No. Because they're sneaky buggers. And that's exactly what I'd be expecting them to do.
To quote someone,"there ain't no atheists in a fox hole".
I guess when the chips are down people will grasp onto whatever possibility there is that will save them.
As long as you have hope you have a better chance of survival.
You can't measure or explain hope and love. So I guess throughout mans history he invented religion to explain things he didn't understand.
This mans faith helped him through. Good for him.
I'm not religious in any way but on my death bed im sure I will be saying a prayer or two.
So I guess throughout mans history he invented religion to explain things he didn't understand.
Based on the evidence it looks like man invented relgion to control other men.
To quote someone,"there ain't no atheists in a fox hole".
Yep, religion feeds on fear.
To quote someone,"there ain't no atheists in a fox hole".
A lie.
What is wrong with live and let live. He has his beliefs as many do. He is doing no harm.
Wow! You need to read a little more. Belief and religion have been used as control mechanisms to predicate a war against other religions/faiths/belief systems throughout history - does the Holocaust ring any bells?
Has anyone on here had a near death experience and how did they deal with it? Not picking a fight ,just interested.
Atheism is no different to religion. They're both about a person holding beliefs. Only atheists seem to bang their drum that little bit louder.
😕
The Sun says that on the morning of the game he prayed for God's protection. The subsequent events sound more like a smiting to me.
THIS why does he not ask why God stopped him having a heart attack requiring the intervention of medical staff rather than praising god for helping him through it all due to their actual actions.
Whatever you wish to say about religion this makes no rational sense.
I recall a famous philosopher [ JOB?} gave a story about a man who took protection in the church from a hurricane with his family...all but two of them died and he praised god for saving the two of them ...again this is just irrational nonsense. Whatever happens, good or bad, re affirms the faith as it is not a rational beleief.
his Dawkins led neo-athiesm is almost as offensive as the religious nutters we see at the fringes of all beliefs.
Whatever happened to live and let live?
Do we stop people being in high office for their beliefs? Ban their books? Put them to death for heretical beliefs [ FFS how long to accept a heliocentric world and evolution?
You are not good with evidence are youAtheism is no different to religion. They're both about a person holding beliefs. Only atheists seem to bang their drum that little bit louder.
Last time an aethist knocked on your door to convert you? Do we hold services every Sunday for the flock?
Get articles published in the papers anbout our special place in society? What utter BS [Your point is probably true for STW bit not the world in general]
Funny how it's the atheists that seem to feel the need to make so much noise.
What is wrong with live and let live. He has his beliefs as many do. He is doing no harm.
Repeating this wont make it true
Did the believers live and let life in the past? Why not go to a deeply religious place/country or the Spanish Inquisition and experience religious tolerance first hand ridiculous claim.
we make so much "noise" to try and drown out theirs. Rationality must won [ crosses fingers does three hail marys and asks shiva for help]
What is wrong with live and let live. He has his beliefs as many do. He is doing no harm.
Yup. Until anyone gets to the level of spoutng [i]my God is going to **** all over your God[/i], then I don't see what there is to be offended by?
Muamba doesn't take away credit from those who tried to help him. He survived some very extreme circumstances.
To me he was lucky.
To a believer, he was looked after by God.
What's the difference?
nice to see the lad back on his feet though.
Do we hold services every Sunday for the flock?
No, but some atheists certainly like to bang on about religion given the absolutely tiniest possible excuse.
The once a week gathering of the committed atheists on STW has become a most religious like phenomenon.
To a believer, he was looked after by God.
Even if you do believe, it's fairly daft to ignore the fact that god 'struck him down' in the first place just so he could save him. Such is the nature of faith though, you ignore the inconvenient evidence.
What is wrong with live and let live. He has his beliefs as many do. He is doing no harm.
agreed..
the difference is one view is correct and one view is incorrect; either god saved him or the medical intervention saved him.
Given his heart stopped and there were medical people doing stuff to him I will go with the later as that is where the evidence points
ernie_lynch - Member
No, but some atheists certainly like to bang on about religion given the absolutely tiniest possible excuse.The once a week gathering of the committed atheists on STW has become a most religious like phenomenon.
And on a Sunday morning - unintentional irony, perhaps?
Good job this isn't a MTB forum and the sun isn't shining....oh, wait a minute....
Even if you do believe, it's fairly daft to ignore the fact that god 'struck him down' in the first place just so he could save him. Such is the nature of faith though, you ignore the inconvenient evidence.
Evidence? You've imagined [i]one[/i] possible scenario and tagged it as evidence.
the difference is one view is correct and one view is incorrect; either god saved him or the medical intervention saved him.
That's an extremely arrogant view.
Not only that, you've just made it up. Why can't both have a hand in saving him? And/or, did God not create medical science for us?
Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in any of this crap. But again, it comes down to [i]my God is going to **** all over your God[/i]. Where in this case your God is science...or so you'd like us to believe - your arguments don't support this. And as usual, as with most religious fanatics, it's argued with an extremely limited imagination.
oh sod it i cant be bothered
oh sod it i cant be bothered
Are we lacking religious fervour this morning ?
the difference is one view is correct and one view is incorrect; either god saved him or the medical intervention saved him.
A bloke slips off a cliff, catches a branch on the way down and is hanging precariously close to death. Being religious, he starts praying.
Shortly, a bunch of walkers come past. They see him and shout down, "can we help?"
The guy replies, "No, it's ok, I have my faith in God, He will save me!"
The walkers go on their way. Presently, a climber makes his way up the cliff. "Hey, are you ok?" he shouts. "I can rope you in and lower you down."
"No, it's ok, I have my faith in God, He will save me!" the guy replies.
A minute later, a helicopter flies past. They spot him and start to lower a ladder.
"I'm fine," the guy shouts, "I have my faith in God, He will save me!"
The helicopter goes on its way. Eventually, unable to hold on any longer, the guy falls to his death.
Checking in at the pearly gates, the guy confronts god. "What gives? I put my faith in you, and now I'm dead!"
"Hm, that's strange," says God, "I sent some walkers, a climber, a helicopter..."
cougar you dont actually believe that, neither does the poster above, lets go ride
Are we lacking religious fervour this morning ?
Apparently...god willing and all that obviously
Butcher your post makes very little sense. I can't be bothered to argue about this either though. Enjoy your Sunday folks.
He's got children hasn't he?
I'm sure they're very pleased to have their dad back. I'm sure as well as god he probably thanked his doctors, he seems like a really nice bloke from what i've read. A million miles away from the image of a regular footballer. lovely story for a change 😀
cougar you dont actually believe that,
Well, no, I'm an atheist. It's a joke.
Point is, even if you're religious, there should be room in your thinking for "god gave us cardiologists," non?
A million miles away from the [s]image of[/s] the crap I read about a handful of idiots that I then assume is the typical behaviour of a regular footballer
consider that fixed.
I think it's pretty well accepted that a belief or positive outlook will help you get better.
Is it?
On QI both Stephen Fry and a Doctor were discussing the fact that a 'positive outlook' does indeed work and had been proven to in double blind peer reviewed tests.
They went on to say that groups given placebo medications were more likely to recover than those given none, and if the placebo was a injection patients were more likely to get get better than those given a placebo pill.
So in that respect, beliefs religions probably do have a positive role to play. And that's probably the last positive thing (and maybe even the first) I'll post regarding religion.
Is that in genesis?there should be room in your thinking for "god gave us cardiologists," non
one wonders why we had to do all the empirical work and science /medical stuff to get to the point of having cardiologists if god gave it us.
the fist heart transplant was carried out by a Christiaan [ not a typo] I will give you that and get my coat. 😉
one wonders why we had to do all the empirical work and science /medical stuff to get to the point of having cardiologists if god gave it us.
It's unfair to argue with me by taking half of a sentence out of context and picking it apart. Especially when I agree with you.
Sorry,forgive me 😉
the apology is sincere.
there should be room in your thinking for "god gave us cardiologists," non
There are creatures whose only purpose is to burrow into the eyeballs of mammals to lay their eggs, causing extreme pain plus blindness. Did god create these before or after opticians and cardiologists?
Ah, that's to test your faith...
To quote someone,"there ain't no atheists in a fox hole".
Lots of the lads in WWI called on their mothers in extremis/near death. Giving the lie to that one.
Which supports Anthony Brandts idea, "Other things may change us, but we start and end with family"
Good ride this morning too.
I think it's marvelous that God saved the football man. There's good PR in helping athletes run faster and jump higher. Pity the prayers of the millions suffering around the globe go unanswered though. This god chappy doesn't really do himself any favours.
OK, the two things that are a little off about the OP (I've just ignored the inevitable barrel of bollocks afterwards):
1: I distinctly remember Muamba and others involved like Bolton staff making lots of statements thanking staff for the fantastic care he received.
2. Muamba has never, to my knowledge at least, edited The Sun.
To quote someone,"there ain't no atheists in a fox hole".
I work with a guy who's ex-RAF Regiment; served in Northern Ireland and Iraq (both times). He's a vocal atheist and always has been.
There are creatures whose only purpose is to burrow into the eyeballs of mammals to lay their eggs, causing extreme pain plus blindness. Did god create these before or after opticians and cardiologists?
I've heard that there are 200 parasites that live on/feed on humans...guinea worms are one...great sense of humour that God woman.