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Maybe I'm being too cynicial here but the drive to run cars on hydrogen seems a backwards step when compared to EVs. The electricity required to charge EVs can be generated by numerous methods and people can even generate it themselves (with solar panels).
Hydrogen would have to be supplied in much the same way as petrol or diesel..... is this the real reason behind its development? It's simply a "greener" version of current fuels and can be taxed and controlled in the same way.
You dont have to look far, e.g. hydrogen tech is being developed by one the Tory party's largest donors, JCB. Also just saw a post about BMW's hydrogen tech on Facebook, so many bots posting supportive 1 or 2 word comments it was laughable.
Lithium batteries charge at something like 90% efficiency. Latest developments in hydrogen production are ~95% efficient, and require electricity and seawater ( https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/green-hydrogen-produced-seawater-fuel-alternative/152420/). Hydrogen fuel cells are somewhere around 65% efficient at present, but improving. Time to refuel would be a lot less than recharging an EV.
Main problem is that hydrogen is such a small molecule that it likes to escape from where it's kept, and also to go bang. But LiON batteries aren't exactly the nicest things to be sitting on top of...
That jca link is quite a big deal if it can be scaled up.
On current tech you need 3 or 4 times more electricity to drive a mile on hydrogen compared to charging an ev
It's not a conspiracy it's simply business. As petrol and diesel are phased out there will be a market opportunity. It could be captured completely by EVs but if you want a share you could push your own solution. A solution that requires a less undisruptable commodity (hydrogen) could give you a lot of control and long term payback on your investment.
While electricity is mostly supplied by energy companies, it can be made in different ways and you can make it yourself. So I see it as more disruptable from an investment point of view.
It does become a bit circular in the arguments as we need investment to make either solution work. But I don't think those pushing hydrogen are doing so because it's green
Friend works in oil regulation and lots of oil and gas companies investing in it. As a fuel it’s a lot easier to store than electricity. Production could be solar/tide/wind then stored in tanks rather than huge battery arrays. Possibility to use existing gas networks for distribution. As mentioned earlier, batteries needed for haulage/heavy industry use would be prohibitively massive and take too long to charge. Hydrogen could be a good option. I think it will have its place in the energy mix but not a final answer.
AIUI, there are also questions of just how many EVs the grid can take, at least in the short/medium term.
Can't remember the numbers, but I recall reading that the grid in it's current form certainly wouldn't be able to handle all the cars in the UK suddenly switching to EV overnight. Obviously that wouldn't happen, but AIUI, past a certain point the we don't really know what the transition would look like, and hydrogen may also have a role to play there.
It might be easier to store but it's a lot harder to distribute, and really infrastructure heavy. A hydrogen refuelling station is a lot more technology intensive than a petrol station, and you don't go far between charges as it's not very energy dense. Currently they contain tanks of liquified hydrogen, regas a volume back to compessed gas then fuel the car from that limited volume. It isn't straightforward at all-
I don't know any oil companies seriously investigating it . You cannot use existing networks I believe without dropping the internal pressure significantl, so you have a capacity limit, and that means any 'hydrogen gas stations' are going to need to repressurise low pressure gas at the station
At least fuel cells to generate elec work, when I see car manufacturers playing with hydrogen combustion engines you know they're dredging the ideas barrel
Main benefit of Hydrogen, is you can create it whenever there is a surplus of electricity, refuelling is far quicker, and storage is far less limited than what you can currently do with excess electricity.
Even if somebody develops the ideal battery, the electricity grid is never going to be able to support fast recharging of more than a relatively few vehicles in each area.
Is there a push for hydrogen cars? I’ve not heard much about them for ages.
Very little.
It’s not a conspiracy it’s simply business
Yeah that’s the similar part. “Electric cars are available now but big energy companies ans governments pay them not to release them.”
Green hydrogen is a good solution - hydrogen is more energy dense than petroleum etc, so it makes a lot of sense to use it. The challenge is that most people's knowledge and assumptions around hydrogen are still anchored around the Hindenburg.
The UK govt is actively trying to thwart hydrogen (look at the subsidy scheme, and the procurement regime for hydrogen on infrastructure projects) for reasons that are not clear, but doubtless nefarious.
The EU is getting its act together and will see a huge ramp up in the coming decade.
But for the foreseeable, most of the hydrogen will be best served in industrial settings. It makes most sense there.
I don't see much difference between using hydrogen or LPG as a fuel in terms of production, distribution, use in the vehicle.
But for the foreseeable, most of the hydrogen will be best served in industrial settings. It makes most sense there.
As in Harry's Garage from a couple of years ago with JCB. With development I think it's perfectly feasible that hydrogen could become an option for small vehicles too. The "Hydrogen Economy" is something I was reading about as a schoolboy more than half a century ago. It's time we made some serious progress.
The UK govt is actively trying to thwart hydrogen
Hold on one the Tory Party donors is developing it so that can’t be right.
Hold on one the Tory Party donors is developing it so that can’t be right.
Yeah, it's a puzzler. The HAR scheme, supposed to stiumlate demand for hydrogen has actually served to drive up the per kg cost, doing the opposite... willful incompetence? Favouring of incumbent energy companies?
Hydrogen for passenger cars is not a good plan - overall efficiency is 3 to 4 times worse than batteries, so assuming sources will ultimately be mostly renewable or nuclear that's a massive waste. Plus all the infrastructure, storage, transport etc.
It's also aiming to solve a problem that doesn't exist - charging speed. When most people charge at 7kW home or at destinations then only "top ups" are needed for long journeys, which are generally very quick and only needed on long journeys where you need a break anyway.
It has some value for kit that has to operate 24/7 or beyond reasonable battery capacity - JCB diggers on a site for example, or maybe long distance trucks.
A lot of people seem to be clinging on to it as it's "familiar" and similar to conventional fuels - i.e. you buy and use it like petrol/diesel - basically luddite tendencies as there is no actual benefit to this for passenger car use if you look at it objectively.
Hydrogen is NOT easy to store. As a gas it’s easier than impossible, but as a liquid, it’s hard to move, difficult to fill, must be kept at -253 or below AT ALL TIMES, and leaks through almost everything. You also lose a lot of it when filling tanks as you have to vent a lot to the outside air or you get other…problems.
Main benefit of Hydrogen, is you can create it whenever there is a surplus of electricity
Can it be made anywhere? E.g. in a refuelling station itself. That would negate the need for a distribution network
Hydrogen for passenger cars is not a good plan – overall efficiency is 3 to 4 times worse than batteries
In terms of energy conversion?
I'd be interested in how it works out in system terms, as presumably you could build much smaller/lighter hydrogen cars, and I'd guess there was a greater cost for battery renewal.
Hydrogen is more energy dense than petroleum? Really?
Hydrogen is more energy dense than petroleum? Really?
... yes? By... lots.
Hydrogen fuelling station in Melbourne https://thedriven.io/2021/03/29/toyota-opens-hydrogen-production-centre-launches-new-fuel-cell-sedan/
i.e. you buy and use it like petrol/diesel – basically luddite tendencies
….this. I’ve just plugged my EV in, at home, with 62% battery. Yes it still has 200 odd miles range, but I have got into the habit of charging when it gets into the low to mid 60% area, regular small top ups and will cost a couple of quid during the night.
A lot of people seem to be clinging on to it as it’s “familiar” and similar to conventional fuels – i.e. you buy and use it like petrol/diesel – basically luddite tendencies
I don't know that that's fair. A lot of people don't have the facility of charging at home, or at their destination. Charging time is a real problem for some people.
A lot of people don’t have the facility of charging at home, or at their destination. Charging time is a real problem for some people.
Surely it's simpler to solve those vs overcoming the issues with hydrogen?
Surely it’s simpler to solve those vs overcoming the issues with hydrogen?
Why can't you do both?
I don't think it's realistic to solve charging in all locations, short of fully autonomous cars that go and charge themselves up.
But mostly, I objected to calling people luddites for not being middle class enough to have a house with a driveway.
Why can’t you do both?
There is no reason. I meant more in attempting both that EVs are more likely to succeed because perhaps the issues are simplier.
Just been looking at thedriven.io it seems hydrogen is here already, well there, in Australia. Toyota pushing hydrogen because EVs are impractical for Aussies
I don’t see much difference between using hydrogen or LPG as a fuel in terms of production, distribution, use in the vehicle.
The differences are there. For a start you can liquify LPG easily which means you can transport it as a liquid and move a lot of it around easily. Hydrogen is very difficult to liquify and crucially it takes a huge amount of energy which you don't get back. Same for compressing it.
It has niche applications but it's not suitable for mass car usage. You'd need something like three or four times more renewable generating capacity than if you just put the energy directly in batteries.
EVs are flying out of factories right now, and Charing stations are going up everywhere. Electricity is already everywhere. EVs work right now. Hydrogen cars don't, so why bother? You want to build a whole new industry from scratch, develop and produce loads of new tech, waste huge amounts of energy just to avoid having to stop for 30 mins every few hours on your next long drive? It's so not worth it.
A lot of people don’t have the facility of charging at home, or at their destination
Kerbside charging is a muchh, much easier problem to solve. And for those few remaining cases where EVs really don't work (rather than being slightly less convenient) we would be better off sticking with petrol, or biofuels.
EVs are impractical for Aussies
Why? They must have more solar potential per person than anywhere on the planet.
Even if somebody develops the ideal battery, the electricity grid is never going to be able to support fast recharging of more than a relatively few vehicles in each area.
Sure? Electricity usage has been falling for a while, there's plenty of spare capacity in the grid. Yes, certain locations may need new supply but that can be done far more easily than a complete hydrogen economy. The amount of work this would entail is huge, and we wouldn't get any benefit from it over using EVs. In fact it would be worse.
Why?
Toyota said it, not me.
Hydrogen for transport is a really tricky area to navigate as it comes in a whole bunch of ‘colours’ depending on how the hydrogen is made. Grey is split from natural gas, green from water electrolysed from renewable electricity and a bunch of different shades in between those two. There are a number of things that need to be considered but the main one is The global market for hydrogen is already huge - its primary use is in the Heinz-Krebb process in fertiliser manufacturing. It’s also worth noting that hydrogen is never transported as for practical reasons it’s always made (from natural gas) at point of use as it’s a tricky molecule to contain. It also does nasty things to steel as it can work its way between the molecules of the container. So, if decarbonisation is the goal - fix the industrial processes first that can only use hydrogen by converting to green hydrogen.
There are also a heap of reasons why we shouldn’t consider hydrogen for transportation asides from the fact that engineering wise it’s crazy to have hydrogen hanging around for longer than absolutely necessary:
it’s energy inefficient- at least 3 times more power hungry than BEV in round trip efficiency (that means 4 times more solar panels, wind turbines and hydro installations)
it’s easily hijacked by the fossil fuel industry and grey substituted for green
it’s not energy dense
it’s already in high demand for industrial processes (as previous)
if you split it from gas it uses several times more gas to achieve the same energy (great if you’re in the gas selling business)
on the point that EV’s are impractical for Aussies - yes, there are some charging limitations at the moment, but containerised solar charging stations can and are being deployed off grid for remote areas and the major mining companies are converting their heavy and light fleets to electric simply because you can make it on site rather than truck it in from 1000’s of kms away. I also knock out over 40,000km a year commuting in my BEV, (70% self powered too) so it’s hard to make that point.
I guess hydrogen cars… well it’s a bit like saying we should be running coal fired steam engines. Yes, it can be done, but it’s not exactly a good use of resources…..
“I’d be interested in how it works out in system terms, as presumably you could build much smaller/lighter hydrogen cars, and I’d guess ”
You could make a hydrogen car lighter than an equivalent battery car. Which might improve its efficiency by 10-20% maybe. It would need to be 300-400% more efficient to compare to batteries though.
the electricity grid is never going to be able to support fast recharging of more than a relatively few vehicles in each area.
You might have noticed that ye olde dino juice infrastructure isn't particularly resilient when everyone in the area suddenly wants to fill their car up at the same time. In practice that's rarely an issue because people tend not to all want a full tank within a few hours of each other (unless there's either a potential shortage of supply or a sudden price change). Not sure why evs should be any different in this regard?
Toyota are ready to produce EVs for Australia
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/toyota-bz4x-electric-car-delayed-for-australia-again#
They love coal too much in Aus, so that's what powers their EVs. Toyota thinks hybrids are a better fit. Plus EVs are impractical for some reason
South Australia 80% renewables right now. I can only make apologies for our coal burning brethren in NSW,VIC and QLD
The companies looking at Hydrogen production don't think that domestic transport is a realistic/sensible use of hydrogen. There are many better uses of hydrogen within industrial settings before it becomes sensible to use in transport.
The processing losses are way too high compared to EVs for it to be sensible. Transport is difficult as it's hard to get good compression, at the moment viable transport range from production site is maybe 40-50 miles and that's at best case use (and ironically using diesel fleet). Project Union is waaaay off realisation but might get a better financial position on transport.
HGV use and heavy plant is where they see vehicle use, but having spoken to haulers they won't go until the unit cost of cabs is either substantially lower or subsidised. Also the HGV manufacturers have a problem that storage requirements for hydrogen mean that without legislative changes to allow greater train length and weight it will be a difficult ask as they will lose capacity.
the electricity grid is never going to be able to support fast recharging of more than a relatively few vehicles in each area.
Simple economics means that this isn’t actually such a big deal. Right now home overnight charging is in the order of 5p/kw.hr and fast charging around 65p. So most people charge at home whenever possible.
The other thing EVs do is enable grid balancing - using excess base load energy at night (I.e. nuclear - you can’t practically “turn down” a nuclear plant overnight) and then can feed it back into the grid at peak times. This is already a thing and is becoming more mainstream.
The other thing EVs do is enable grid balancing – using excess base load energy at night
I had a thought. If everyone who could left their EV plugged in (but not charging), excess load be used by charging up EVs that need a top up. Perhaps provide the electricity at a reduced rate if excess needs to be offloaded.
Green hydrogen is a good solution – hydrogen is more energy dense than petroleum etc
… yes? By… lots.
Have you seen a Kilo of liquid hydrogen?
It's like saying candyfloss is energy dense.
1m3 of water is a 1000kg
1m3 of diesel is 850kg
1m3 of hydrogen is ........ 70kg!
There's an advantage that fuel cells are more efficient than ICE, but then you consider diesel (or batteries) is stored in any shape tank you like, so you can have as big a tank as you (practically) like. Hydrogen you're limited to spheres or (heavier) cylinders.
It's shitty to store, it's expensive to produce, and it's practically impossible to transport. Refineries produce loads* of it already, it's a normal component of natural gas, so they burn it in the fired heaters** as unless you have a local market for it (i.e. on site) it's very difficult to sell.
*Relatively, it might make up the bulk of the fuel gas but it's not an excesive ammount. The LP optimisation will tend to use it up as the more cheap fuel you have the more processing you can do and the more value added.
**Which sometimes gets you carbon credits as you're doing work but not producing CO2 🤷♂️
Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here:
Hydrogen is mass energy dense, but its volumetric energy density is poor and it’s volumetric energy density that’s important in transport applications.
Hydrogen can be gaseous and liquid, but for transport, only the latter is truly valid.
As a liquid it needs to be either cryogenically cooled (massive equipment weight) or stored under enormous pressure (enormous pressure vessel weight).
As a liquid even a fraction of a degree temperature rise leads to an exponential rise is pressure. Imagine how hard it is keeping a pipe of any length perfectly temperature/pressure balanced with a fluid moving through at a high flow rate it and a temperature gradient of almost 270deg to the outside world.
You need a license to have over 3.5t of LH2 fuel. You need an audit and special permission to have over 10t of LH2.
One of our sites has over 100t of it and the safety assessment for blast damage had a boundary of 8km.
LH2 is very, very, very complex and dangerous. Contrast this with electric cars….
What nobody in the EV camp likes to talk about is
- it an exceptionally filthy environmentally ****ing process to get the raw materials for L-ion batteries (it makes the oil and gas industry look like angels)
- the vehicles weight half to a tonne more, therefore ****ing the infrastructure more.
Quoting the battery efficiency is also a dodge to mislead....how about factoring in the 49% efficiency (figure from 2022 from Statistica) of a typical gas powered power station (because if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you're deluded).
if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded
At least the potential of those sources exists, plus there are others like solar. Petrol, diesel, hydrogen are limited in where they can be sourced from. You can't do much about it. Electricity on the other hand can be made in a variety of ways.
Didn’t read all the above but some of the usual fake news as you’d expect.
Very few people know there are plans to transition the country’s gas networks to use hydrogen, detailed plans and all the safety testing has been passed as safe.
i have seen there is street by street detailed plans for it to be done. I am sure it’ll happen, but as someone said above, the government isn’t keen for some reason - almost as if they have financial interests in gas companies…..
it will happen and it’ll massively reduce carbon emissions for the country.
I see some of the massively ridiculous claims by anti-EV types who are fixed in their ideas and are completely sure that what they read in the past (fires etc) will never be solved or improved on, electric grid will collapse and renewable generation will never increase and everything will shut down countrywide on a hit summer day with no wind blah blah blah.
The way people live will change in the next few decades. I’m looking forward to it.
just need a pro-Green government first.
What nobody in the EV camp likes to talk about is
When you start your post like this it makes you look like a conspiracy theorist nutter.
The environment impact of mining is talked about a lot, and alternatives are looked at. Not least because manufacturers don't want their supply chains dependent on a few locations which may be in unstable countries. One of the most problematic things is cobalt, and cobalt free batteries exist, for example.
But the key point is that child labour and poor environmental regulation aren't an intrinsic part of the EV concept - they can be fixed - but spewing CO2 is an intrinsic part of fossil fuel usage.
if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded
Do you have any real data that the national grid is lying to us all? Or are you just being a conspiracy theorist nutjob again?
if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded
An increasing proportion is coming from these sources. And the whole point of moving to these new car technologies is that the power generation base is (and has to) move to close to 100% from these sources.
The cars are part of that journey. True it’s not close to 100% yet, but it will be.
Generally the industry view on Toyota is that they bet on hybrids which didn't really take off so now they're up shit creek. Green hydrogen is very expensive and as others have pointed out hydrogen for vehicles is impractical.
Here are some non technical myth busters from the national grid: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions
I wonder if the work that's being done on Ammonia as a fuel might overtake Hydrogen. Wärtsilä and a couple of others seem to be pushing pretty hard with it for fuelling ships as are Toyota for smaller engines. Possibly not a solution for cars but maybe more practical than either electric or Hydrogen for trucks and buses.
Generally the industry view on Toyota is that they bet on hybrids which didn’t really take off so now they’re up shit creek
They have pivoted to EVs rapidly though, and they now have the initiative to focus on lower cost battery options as well as maximal range which I think is pretty good.
I have read about ammonia and other alternative fuels, pretty sure everything is being worked on given the potential returns.
Very few people know there are plans to transition the country’s gas networks to use hydrogen, detailed plans and all the safety testing has been passed as safe.
There's high level planning for just about any eventuality.
i have seen
What exactly have you seen? A YouTube clip? A white paper? Some fag packet calculations that say if you run it as slightly lower pressure you don't lose too much through the pipes but run the risk of explosive atmospheres forming in voids arround the pipes? Vaillant/BG/Worcester-Bosch agreeing that you could swap the burner tip and it work reasonably well? Attack ships on fire on the shores of Orion, Genies glittering at the Ten-Hauser gate?
there is street by street detailed plans for it to be done. I am sure it’ll happen, but as someone said above, the government isn’t keen for some reason – almost as if they have financial interests in gas companies…..
it will happen and it’ll massively reduce carbon emissions for the country.
No it bloody won't.
In the short term we don't have the power available to waste making hydrogen.
In the long term if we have so much excess supply that we can create expensive eletrolysis, compression and storage plants to turn large amounts of expensively produced energy into small ammounts of hydrogen, we could ......... just heat out houses with it directly.
Or indirectly. Even the 50s storage heater tech of "put some oven elements in hollow bricks, wrap it in asbestos and paint it brown and beige" is a more efficient way to store the energy.
Green hydrogen is pretty much no existent at the moment - we had this discussion in a previous thread about using it at Port Talbot for steel making.
Green hydrogen comes from electricity, which means it is only an alternative transfer and storage mechanism between the green electricity generation and the car. Comments about fossil fuel power stations apply to both. If you have lots of green electricity in the future, and today we do not, do you send it by cables to an EV battery or do you turn it into H2 that is transported and stored at petrol stations for use in H2 cars.
There are pros and cons to both strategies, but green hydrogen at scale is decades away and in the meantime EVs are here now and are the only game in town.
What nobody in the EV camp likes to talk about is
That’ll be because it’s the usual nonsense spouted by EV haters. They’re improving mining, moving away from lithium and cobalt. Cobalt of course is heavily mined for the petroleum industry but EV haters don’t talk about that.
Unless you’re saying the national grid is lying then I’m not sure about your claims of electricity production.
if we have so much excess supply that we can create expensive eletrolysis, compression and storage plants to turn large amounts of expensively produced energy into small ammounts of hydrogen, we could ……… just heat out houses with it directly.
Yes. I wonder what the round trip efficiency would be for generating hydrogen, shipping it around and burning it? 70-80% maybe? Consider that a heat pump using the same electricity is 250-400% efficient, you have a long way to go. And factor in that nearly all houses already have an electricity supply that's ready to go right now - more than have gas in fact - and also that you can generate your own power at home.
I have read about ammonia and other alternative fuels
Yes, there are a lot of options for alternative fuels. Here is some public information from the company I work for. Note that the same company is working on battery and alternative fuel technologies including electrolysers and fuel cells for H2 plus fuels that can still be combusted but are possible to generate from electricity, i.e. as a renewable form of energy storage.
Worth reading up on for anyone actually interested in facts and realistic future options rather than just bashing EVs etc.
https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/10/20/state-adoption-among-alternative-fuels
Battery tech still looks like the dominant option for passenger cars (in my personal opinion - not a company position). Charging just isn't an issue like some people seem to think (probably mostly people who have not actually lived with an EV for any period of time).
Example - I did 260 ish miles yesterday taking my son mountain biking for the day - did it all on one charge but the car was left with 20% battery and I didn't bother plugging in last night as wasn't planning on driving anywhere today. I realised though that I need to make another (unplanned) journey today of about 150 miles, so I need to add 28kw.Hr (35%) of charge.
My choices are - stopping at any one of four rapid chargers I know and trust en route. That would take 11 minutes plugged in. Or just switch the 7kW home charger on which I did at 8AM - it'll be ready to go by midday and I'm not planning on leaving until after 1PM. Simply not a problem. And still miles cheaper than petrol or diesel.
For anything related to net=zero and transitioning to cleaner energy, look at who is saying what, and what their interest is. Nuclear companies say nuclear is the answer, renewable companies push renewables, gas networks push hydrogen.
I'm sure there are plans for transitioning the gas networks to hydrogen... done by the gas networks. It's part of their job to plan. However, there aren't any national or regional plans yet that look across different energy types. OFGEM have given this role to ESO (soon to be NESO - National Energy System Operator) but the Strategic Spatial Energy Plan and Regional Energy Spatial Plans don't exist yet. These plans = once agreed - will influence what the gas and electric distribution networks are allowed to build. As regulated bodies they have to have their plans agreed and the amount of money they can spend is controlled by OFGEM.
A gas network can't just decide to transition to hydrogen. It's all controlled by OFGEM.
For a semi-independent view (as is any QANGO really independent?) take a look at the October 2023 report from the National Infrastructure Commission - summary here: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/oct/18/uk-infrastructure-needs-much-more-investment-say-government-advisers
One thing to add to the above re Hydrogen or any of the "alternative" fuels for that matter.
Simple economics means that they will be premium options - because they take 3-4 times the amount of "input" power to generate vs direct electric / battery use and assuming that we don't have so much renewable power available that it's so cheap we can waste it.
It will therefore only be used for applications where there is a tangible benefit vs battery electric or where there is no other option. Passenger cars are highly unlikely to fall into that category.
And factor in that nearly all houses already have an electricity supply that’s ready to go right now
Yes they have a supply. But in the real world many barely have an adequate infrstructure to supply for the current situation.
Add in mass adoption of heat pumps and car chargers and your going to have significant upgrades required across the country .
Likewise anyone listening to the people that are paid by the government to tell us that we have enough generation facility's and the infrastructures fine needs to give their head a wobble.
None of the independent sources agree with the nat grids assessment of the situation.
But in the real world many barely have an adequate infrastructure to supply for the current situation.
Infrastructure will be, and is being improved. It's also generally only PEAK demand that causes issues. EV's don't generally charge at peak times.
Factor in the smart grid approach - decentralised generation, local storage (including home and car batteries) which can help smooth demand peaks and troughs and we're in a much better position than might at first appear.
None of the independent sources agree with the nat grids assessment of the situation.
I’ve seen dodgy reports on such claims.
No case for hydrogen heating… It was confirmed
Currently only 1 hydrogen heating trial (in Fife iirc), the Tyneside one I think has been cancelled…
From memory, the ‘allowance’ per house by the DNO (currently 4kW) rises by 3kW (EV charging) and 4kW (HP’s) to 11kW. And you need’s a proper 3 phase distribution network to balance that (projected time to convert: ~90 years at present…).
Gas currently provides the lions share of heating (again from memory ~2x electric grid capacity).
Also, I was advised that a LA, which had transitioned to EV’s, have quietly returned to diesel vans as the recent storm induced electrical outages (and snow) left them stuck and unable to provide proper emergency cover…
It’s fun times we live in.
i have seen there is street by street detailed plans for it to be done. I am sure it’ll happen
Given they haven't released anything beyond pre-FEED for project Union which in itself is only the spine to link the key generation hubs I'm going to say that's bobbins, and even if you have it's not anything beyond concept gazing.
Infrastructure will be, and is being improved. It’s also generally only PEAK demand that causes issues. EV’s don’t generally charge at peak times.
Yes currently seems to consist of getting a 400kva decentralized node system in place at the expense of the landscape. .the towers needed are monstrous but I was more talking about final feeds to houses. Transformers and the ilk. I know we have a limited feed on an 80amp fuse and they won't let us have batteries / EV fast charger together and that's without trying to fit a heat pump.
Namely as all three wNt the off-peak power together.
Yes. I wonder what the round trip efficiency would be for generating hydrogen, shipping it around and burning it? 70-80% maybe?
Closer to 30-40%.
In California where there was a big push for H2 in cars (remember Schwarzenegger had a hydrogen Humvee) they've had issues that the cars sold came with fuel cards to subsidize the fuel down to a level that would encourage people (i.e. cheaper than petrol).
When the cards run out it's more expensive than UK petrol (in the US remember) even with zero tax.
So they've got a glut of these cars that are now worthless.
For the avoidance of doubt I think all cars are bad and we'd be in a much better situation if we stopped individually spending thousands on a 2nd hand depreciating asset every few years and thousands again annually on running it and instead spent it on railways and busses that actually solve the problem
Consider that a heat pump using the same electricity is 250-400% efficient,
I don't think I understand what you are saying there.
I don’t think I understand what you are saying there.
If you take 1kW of electricity, turn it into hydrogen, then burn it in your boiler you'd probably see about 500W of actual heat.
If you put 1kW of electricity into a heat pump you'll get about 3kW of heat in your house.
Honestly I have no idea what you're getting up to
'Yes currently seems to consist of getting a 400kva decentralized node system in place at the expense of the landscape. .the towers needed are monstrous but I was more talking about final feeds to houses. Transformers and the ilk. I know we have a limited feed on an 80amp fuse and they won’t let us have batteries / EV fast charger together and that’s without trying to fit a heat pump.'
A normal Norwegia house can run all that - and a washing machine!
Yes currently seems to consist of getting a 400kva decentralized node system in place at the expense of the landscape. .the towers needed are monstrous but I was more talking about final feeds to houses. Transformers and the ilk. I know we have a limited feed on an 80amp fuse and they won’t let us have batteries / EV fast charger together and that’s without trying to fit a heat pump.
Namely as all three wNt the off-peak power together.
No idea what monstrous towers you’re talking about unless it’s interconnect from Kent to Norfolk and that is to enable power from the offshore wind farms, plus only being considered as it’s cheaper than other options such as pylons etc - either way it’s a specific case and nothing to do with decentralised power supplies in general. The wider plan is generally adapting / updating the existing infrastructure.
Re the final feed to houses you seem to have missed the point around peak / off peak and demand balancing. You don’t run all forms of demand at the same time. You charge the car at night when overall demand is low. Energy for the heating would be in the daytime. Battery charging would generally be “whenever it’s cheapest” - I.e these power demands are all deliberately and specifically evened out. Demand based pricing enables that - hence the rollout of smart meters. At peak times (e.g. the 5pm slot when everyone is getting home, putting the heating on and cooking) you use house batteries / car batteries to offset demand or even sell back. This model already exists.
I wonder what the round trip efficiency would be for generating hydrogen, shipping it around and burning it? 70-80% maybe?
30% ish. That’s before the transport costs etc (tankers / pipelines etc).
That’s the whole issue with Hydrogen. All of the other issues can be developed, but the fundamental inefficiency is the problem.
No idea what monstrous towers you’re talking about unless it’s interconnect from Kent to Norfolk
Well no slightly further afield. I still have the paint marks on the road either side of my house where the 400kva lines were going to be passing over my garden (for the record I have 1 * 138kva and 1*230kva lines in close proximity and they are relatively unobtrusive compared to 400kva infrastructure
They had to reroute due to substation issues.
I.e these power demands are all deliberately and specifically evened out.
Yes you counter my argument by pointing out that the three highest use items would all be vying for the off-peak pricing slot....
If you put 1kW of electricity into a heat pump you’ll get about 3kW of heat in your house.
I had no idea.
Someone is always going to be put out by infrastructure development I'm afraid - regardless of what it is. Sounds like you are unlucky re that and I'm sorry to hear it's affecting you.
the three highest use items would all be vying for the off-peak pricing slot….
Exactly, that is the goal.
What is ideal is to have the highest use items be flexible in terms of when they draw power. This means that simple pricing models can adapt the demand to available supply. In simplistic terms this could totally flatten the demand profile, but it gets better - they can shape the demand profile to match the supply profile. With the increase in renewables content this can mean that for example there is a surplus in the middle of the day (a sunny, windy day) - tariffs like the smarter Octopus ones can make it very cheap to charge at these times. Chargers can be (and often are) dynamic enough to react to this and even predict it.
Note that heating demand isn't generally flexible - so the others (i.e. storage in cars or house batteries) would be the ones that "work around" this by changing their timing.
Sounds like you are unlucky re that and I’m sorry to hear it’s affecting you.
It's not affecting me anymore I still have sympathy for the environment as it'll be going somewhere on vastly wider taller and more obtrusive pylons.
But your response does sound similar to sse's response to the chap who was losing his entire farm.
They were told It's for improving our supply . ... Yet we have the generation locally and the 400kva infrastructure is not supplying local houses in anyway. It's taking the offshore generation south.
But your response does sound similar to sse’s
If I can across as impersonal or uncaring then I apologise - I did not mean to.
EVs are the ones that makes sense to invest into for the future, but i dare say it's not the nightmare environmental issues on sourcing the rare earths and materials required for EVs and batteries, but i'd guess that hydrogen is rearing it's head again due to the security of these materials, as China and Russia have the majority of them, and China especially have been investing massively in buying up even more via Africa and elsewhere.
I see BMW are doing a bit of press on hydrogen cars, with others following suit soon, is it just an option being provided for vehicle types, or a push for less reliance on materials that might not be easy to get hold off in another generation?!
If I can across as impersonal or uncaring then I apologise
You do not come across like that, but you do make some very interesting comments about how electric power is supplied and used.
No one is really considering burning hydrogen except for power generation, marine and aerospace as it doesn’t get you to zero, you make a load of NOx. Ammonia is FAR worse for NOx than fossil fuels are now.
Ammonia has poor energy density and poor volumetric density, is corrosive, still needs to be cooled/insulated and has the same generation issues as H2.
That it’s easier to store and move about are it’s only benefits.
If Hydrogen leaks, it disperses very quickly, that’s not true for ammonia,
As chemical energy storage for power stations, H2 and Ammonia are both viable, but H2 would be better for power and burning products.
I don’t know why H2 as a car fuel is being discussed so much here. It is simply not available as a green fuel in any meaningful amount and until we have almost unlimited amounts of green electricity it won’t be viable to produce industrial quantities of green hydrogen - so not for decades yet.
Other than possibly specialised applications like heavy transport it will remain the wrong answer to the question of green power compared to electricity for a long time to come.
Interesting thread.
OK - vested interests on the table - but also some relevant knowledge and understanding.
Having served as Head of Innovation and now Head of Connections Design for a DNO, and been slightly involved in some of the hydrogen domestic heat trials, there’s some sense here, and some nonsense.
I can definitely help with.
From memory, the ‘allowance’ per house by the DNO (currently 4kW) rises by 3kW (EV charging) and 4kW (HP’s) to 11kW. And you need’s a proper 3 phase distribution network to balance that (projected time to convert: ~90 years at present…).
The “allowance” for a vanilla domestic premises has been falling for the last 20-30 years. About 2.5kW per house when I started and around 1.5kW per house today. That’s the diversified peak, not the peak in any one house.
A 7kW domestic EV charger adds about 1.5kW to that diversified peak.
Heat pumps the jury is out.
But in basic terms, home charging overnight can be accommodated - provided not everyone in an area is on the Octopus 00:30-04:30 tariff - that destroys diversity. But that hasn’t been a problem yet, and supply and demand economics suggest it probably won’t become one overnight.
More of an issue is summer day time energy production - electricity might simply be so cheap at midday on a sunny windy June day that everyone wants to charge.
Leave it with us - we’re working on it.
Oh and someone mentioned 80A fuses. Just for clarity, an 80A fuse gives you a 100A supply assuming any reasonable sort of cyclic loading (you don’t run flat out at 100A for 4 hours or you’re at 8-10 times the typical domestic energy use, or 4-5 times the domestic use including car charging).
My own house, including car charging and home battery charging rarely gets to half that load at peak.
Heat pumps though are more interesting - the installation including radiator or underfloor, running temperature, house temperature running regime and insulation will make a huge difference and any pronouncement is probably speculation.
A bit more this week on Harry's Garage about EVs - range, battery degradation, depreciation, etc. Also this rather interesting remark from head of Toyota.
