[Closed] Huntsman found guilty

Another big nail? I'd like to think so but it won't make a blind bit of difference. The low- lifes will find a way to continue their repugnant activities.

Glad to hear it. Let's hope the National Trust permanently ban hunting on their land.

£1000 fine.
Bit confused why teej is getting so excited

Mr Hankinson was fined £1,000 along with a contribution of £2,500 towards legal costs.

Sorry that is small change for someone who can afford to keep hunting horses. Its a bit like the two guys in in the Vale of Belvoir a couple of years ago who beat someone who was monitoring the hunt to a pulp who got let off with a slap on the wrist because of their ‘previously good character’.

coyote - the point is that many of these temporary bans on use of the land will hopefully become permanent. National trust is the big one but plenty of other landowners from small to huge. this temporary ban has already put some hunts out of business. as the land they can hunt on gets smaller and more fragmented then hunts will simply either have to be more brazen in breaking the law leading to easier prosecutions or just simply give up

It will also make future prosecutions easier as well as the lie of "trail hunting" is now a useless defense

£1000 fine.
Bit confused why teej is getting so excited

Because the potential knock effect it may have in other hunts using the same tactics.

Drac - this was not just one hunt - this was a national webinar from the national association telling hunts how to evade the law. It has national ramifications and pretty much removes the defense of "we were trail hunting"

Only if the judge isn't part of the problem though...

What DickBarton said...

I admire your optimism TJ, but I really don't think it will be that straightforward. The hunts may have to adopt a lower profile, i.e. no poncing about in fancy dress beforehand, but they will find a way. These people are not wired up right, anyone taking pleasure in a pack of dogs tearing up a live fox isn't just going to say "fair enough" and pack it in.

Drac – this was not just one hunt – this was a national webinar from the national association telling hunts how to evade the law.

I know.

I find it amazing that the rich and connected (i am assuming this here, btw), havent got anything better to do than chase and torture wild animals simply going about their lives. You would think all that wealth and influence would open doors to a lifestyle unattainable to the average person. If you hate foxes, just stay up late one night and shoot them, no need to exhaust, terrify and mutilate them to death.
You wouldnt do it to a vindictive serial killer ( of people, let alone chickens) so why is it OK to do it to a fox.

If these landowners refuse the hunts permission to be on their land and the hunts trespass then its another way of prosecuting them. also other landowners were awaiting the results of this trial to see if hunts should be banned

It will not end the killing of foxes for fun overnight but its another step on the way and a significant one

two effects - 1) that they will have less land to hunt on
2) they no longer have the defense of trail hunting

@johnnymarone
I know, right, it genuinely baffles me too.
When my wife and i have discussions about what we’d do with ourselves (if we had a big lotto win for example), tearing live animals to bits never comes up as a suggestion.
Just for background, i come from a farm, we had several hundred genuine free range chickens, and we never regarded foxes as pests.

Will make absolutely no difference to the UK wildlife.

If you hate foxes, just stay up late one night and shoot them, no need to exhaust, terrify and mutilate them to death.

I think you misunderstand, deeply.
Most hunters don't hate foxes. Indeed the master of the east Devon hunt used to go out and feed them chicken offal in order to encourage them to stay on his land so he could hunt them.
😪

I find it amazing that the rich and connected (i am assuming this here, btw)

Yes that's a pretty massive and incorrect assumption, many hunt followers are not wealthy, neither are the people who go out hare coursing, ferreting, cock fighting etc. All sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds are right bar stools to animals.

many hunt followers are not wealthy, neither are the people who go out hare coursing, ferreting, cock fighting etc.

Ferreting isn’t a blood sport, it’s a relatively humane way of keeping rabbit numbers down, plus rabbits can be eaten. Myxomatosis was introduced as a way of controlling rabbit populations, and it’s a horrible way for rabbits to die, thankfully you rarely see Myxy rabbits around now, they stopped living in large warrens.
Hare coursing, on the other hand, like cock fighting and badger baiting is vile and needs to be stamped on with big fines given out. There are reports of coursers trying to go after hares in a big field the other side of a nearby village, but there are people living close to the field, including the farmer who owns it, and a close eye is kept on it, as there’s only one narrow road either side, with access at only one point in the village.

Hare coursing, on the other hand, like cock fighting and badger baiting is vile

as is fox and deer hunting with hounds which these criminals have been obviously continue to do

Criminality runs right thru all blood sports and is inherent in it. Its just the authorities clamp down on those done by working class folks not those done by toffs

We need to see significant jail time and significant enforcement action for all the criminals killing animals for fun

Makes a bloody big difference to the elements of UK wildlife on tbe arse end of a pack of hounds though.

It's how they treat the dogs as well due to any injury, or if it can no longer keep up with the pack.

They state because the dog has lived within the pack and the mentality of that it cannot be rehomed, and instead of calling in the vet to administer a fatal dose, they simply take the dog out into the nearest field, place a gun to its head and shoot it.
I understand that it cannot be rehomed, and the veterinary society says this too, but it should at least be euthanized is a humane manner, not just bloody shot in the head.

Well i think its a bit much to expect empathy from people who go out of their way to rip innocent animals apart. Plus the vets cost and bullets are cheap.

Baffles me how an activity that was made illegal 15 years ago still carries on regardless... with the police turning a blind eye to it... no reason at all to keep a pack of hounds anymore is there? If I had a disused meth lab and all the ingredients present but promised I wouldn't make illicit drugs do you reckon the constabulary would just take my word for it?😉

whytetrash - because they used this fiction of "trail hunting" as a cover. that cover is now blown. Trail hunting is a perfectly legitimate activity but only one hunt ( I forget which) actually does trail hunts the rest use it as a cover for killing foxes.

Yes that’s a pretty massive and incorrect assumption, many hunt followers are not wealthy, neither are the people who go out hare coursing, ferreting, cock fighting etc. All sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds are right bar stools to animals.

Certainly none of the people I've known who hunt, shoot and fish could be described as posh. There was always a very incorrect "class" element to the anti hunt campaign.

Though that's an aside to the issue of animal cruelty, obviously.

Trail hunting is a perfectly legitimate activity but only one hunt ( I forget which) actually does trail hunts

I would be curious to see which one that is.
There are the drag hunting packs but there is a reason why they wanted to keep the term "drag hunting" for themselves and so trail hunting was created for the traditional fox hunts who didnt want to switch to strict drag hunting.

I do not remember the detail unfortunately but I seem to remember one of the hunts did convert properly to drag or trail hunting

All "trail hunts" banned in the lake distict national park.

I understand that it cannot be rehomed, and the veterinary society says this too, but it should at least be euthanized is a humane manner, not just bloody shot in the head.

I'd say that is a pretty quick and decent way for the dog to die, no moving it around to get to a Vet, no stress for it walking it to a spot where it can be shot. The dog wont know anything about it.

All “trail hunts” banned in the lake distict national park.

Wheres that from, I can see some historical suspensions but not a recent ban?

From anti hunting organisations so pinch of salt required perhaps as I can find no official announcement either. maybe I jumped the gun as it were as the NP put in a temp ban last year

You wouldnt do it to a vindictive serial killer ( of people, let alone chickens) so why is it OK to do it to a fox.

You maybe wouldn't, but given the chance I bet a lot of people would and the fox hunters would love to chase a person, one of those anti hunt people would be a good person to chase down.

Lake District national park has suspended all hunting on their land untill 2022/23 apparently as a result of this court case.

I live in a very, very pro hunting area, prob about 50% of those that hunt are considered wealthy, they may not have millions in the bank, but cirtainly couldn't be considered anything other than 'rich'. The others are either middle class or 'rural poor' who have some connections to hunting through work, usually something to do with horses or general farm work. I'm invited on most hunts, shoots and other activities (hare coursing once) and politely decline.

Although I'm personally very anti-hunting, in fact all blood spot. I reap the benefits as I run a village shop and sell items to those that hunt, albeit a small amount, and those whose lively hood solely relies on hunting or shooting.

Many of those that hunt, seem not to do it for the pleasure of killing, as the anti hunt mob will insinuate, rather the social aspect and general ride around the countryside - a bit like going for a big group mtb ride with a bunch of 50+ mates across land/trails that aren't usually ridden or allowed to be. The killing part is something that only the hardcore, seem to get involved in, as there are usually multiple groups of riders.

If hunting was banned tomorrow, I doubt my buisness would really notice as something else would take its place - the people employed the hunt don't earn enough to really shop with the village shop other than for the odd can of coke or bottle of port, their buisness would be a greater loss to the local Lidl or Aldi. The richer set would carry on as they are.  However the wider community would cirtainly notice, the estate I live on recently stopped all shooting, with the game keeper made redundant which has caused great discomfort to the community, the game keeper having been part of it for decades and it's still talked about. But the estate decided that 1000's of free roaming pheasants weren't the best for an estate trying to rewild and have good eco credentials. A full-time conservation officer has subsequently been employed by the estate. Who is now becoming part of the community.

I will always support a ban on hunting although it's a large part of my community, it's also outdated and barbaric. Society evolves.

Many of those that hunt, seem not to do it for the pleasure of killing, as the anti hunt mob will insinuate, rather the social aspect and general ride around the countryside –

if this was true why do they continue to kill foxes? Drag or trail hunting would have exactly the same social aspects.

sorry dude - its all about the pleasure of killing.

It is a nice precedent and a start.

Like I said some still get involved in the front, usually the fastest riders only. I've not heard of an actual fox kill by my local hunt for at least a couple of years. But like I said, the majority of those that attended aren't there for that - it's just a big social to them which is why they still attend the drag/trail hunting. If there is a kill, most are at least 1/2 a mile away and not involved, maybe if they were better on a horse they would be, in fact a large proportion seem to spend most of their time in the pub rather than on a horse. Some turn up just for a chat at the start of the meet. I'm not condoning it, just trying to understand it like everyone else.

TJ, I’m very anti-hunt but I think that monkeyboyjc has a point ref the killing. They’re not all doing it through blood lust.
Still barbaric though.

it should at least be euthanized is a humane manner, not just bloody shot in the head.

From a former butcher that statement seems a little strange.

If they are not then why not do drag hunts? Why continue killing foxes?

Shooting hounds in the head is no worse than what happens to meat animals when slaughtered. Its a weak emotive argument intended to appeal to those who call their pets fur babies.

It weakens the overall arguement

Pauly
Free Member
TJ, I’m very anti-hunt but I think that monkeyboyjc has a point ref the killing. They’re not all doing it through blood lust.
Still barbaric though.

But by going along at all they are choosing to put themselves in the position that they may well see a sentient creature terrified and chased to exhaustion and then torn to pieces and that they're perfectly OK with that possibility...

A full-time conservation officer has subsequently been employed by the estate. Who is now becoming part of the community.

Effectively no real change in the local full-time employment numbers then.

From a former butcher that statement seems a little strange.

We dont shoot them in the head with a bullet(OK, there are exceptions there), but for food animals we stun them, they then die from blood loss. The work is carried out in a controlled environment. You can't just place a gun captive bolt or otherwise at any point on the head and expect it to kill instantly and without suffering.

But either way killers are highly trained,and licensed. I certainly don't see any huntmaster being trained to kill in such a way, nor a would think kill cleanly....oops missed, try to get a 2nd shot in as the dog is thrashing around...

Saw the hunt swanning around like they own the place up on Dartmoor around lunchtime today.
Considering the amount of cows, ponies and sheep up there at the moment im surprised they are allowed to.
As our dog is a red and white cockapoo, we drove on several miles to our second favourite spot, just in case he was mistaken for a fox 😉.

You can’t just place a gun captive bolt or otherwise at any point on the head and expect it to kill instantly and without suffering.

Umm, yes you can. That's the entire point of a head shot.

But either way killers are highly trained,and licensed. I certainly don’t see any huntmaster being trained to kill in such a way, nor a would think kill cleanly….oops missed, try to get a 2nd shot in as the dog is thrashing around…

I'm getting the impression you know very little about shooting/hunting.

@Squirrelking
I find it repugnant that you are defending such practices.

I saw a video yesterday on a newspaper site, cant remember which one, of a hunt exercising hounds in a very large walled garden. It seemed to me they were using it as a means to sort the wheat from the chaff, as sure enough, as dyna-ti describes, the huntmaster or whatever he calls himself, shot two dogs dead, one taking 2 shots to finish off, at point blank range too. Im talking literally an arms distance against a stationary target. Then just carted off in a barrow to be disposed of somehow.
It disturbed me greatly. I was going to post it here for the hunt apologists to explain but decided against it. You can find it very easily if you look.
Its the Independent, i just looked.
My friend once killed some hunt hounds after they jumped over a hedge straight in front of him on the M4 by Bridgend. No apologies from the hunters, they just tossed the dead hounds into the ditch explaining someone will be along to fetch them, and then carried on the way he told me anyway.

@sandwich

Effectively no real change in the local full-time employment numbers then.

Yep, that's the point I was trying to make, if hunting were lost it would be replaced by other countryside opportunities.

by going along at all they are choosing to put themselves in the position that they may well see a sentient creature terrified and chased to exhaustion and then torn to pieces and that they’re perfectly OK with that possibility…

They may well be supporting this by going along in the past, but much like our meat industry I think many of them are almost oblivious to it. It would also very much depend on how the hunt is run and by whom - I would guess that some hunts are more blood thirsty than others?

We've not had any protestors at our hunt in the 6yrs I lived here, it's always only one drag vehicle, they are very open about the operation and lots of people in the community are involved and aware of what goes on.

Many of the same people would get involved with beating/shooting in the shooting season, culling deer etc etc

Plus theres this, hounds running rampant over private property and savaging family pets .
Yes, I know the source, but the pro hunt lobby arent going to advertise their failings, are they?

https://www.wildlifeguardian.co.uk/hunting/pets/

For the record, I am not against any competent shooter killing a fox, a deer , whatever , outright, and I fish myself, but only for wild game fish which I would eat if I ever caught anything.
The chasing, terrifying and savaging an innocent is not sport, the odds are not even, its got very little to do with pest control either, much more effective and discreet methods exist.Its an excuse for the horsey set to dress up , have a couple of drinks and satisfy bloodlust. Hence the blooding of newcomers, who in their right mind does that?
Just look at how they treat hunt sabs, beatings abound. They put a red coat on and think theyre the ****in Cavalry. And the argument that some only go along for the ride, the killing is done far from them on the 'front line', that is no excuse at all, I view them as equally complicit. There is no condoning this.

And the argument that some only go along for the ride, the killing is done far from them on the ‘front line’, that is no excuse at all, I view them as equally complicit. There is no condoning this.

& this is why it's illegal to do so..... unfortunately there is a set that will try to carry on and it should be stamped out and those caught prosecuted, cirtainly with heavier fines and punishment than in the ops headline post. But should the rest be stopped too? Those that drag hunt etc?

I find it repugnant that you are defending such practices.

@dyna-ti I'm not defending folk shooting dogs or fox hunting for that matter. I'm saying that shooting something in the head is painless and stress free, considerably (and scientifically proven to be) less so than abattoirs FWIW. You say that isn't the case but I'm afraid you're wrong (and are actually undermining your case for stunning).

With regards to the ethics of drag hunting, I think it very much depends how the hounds are raised.
For example, I know of shooters who used to train their spaniel puppies by giving them a stuffed rabbit skin as a toy , so that they associate the smell and texture of rabbit fur with playing a game, much in the same way police and army units train their dogs, except hopefully without the hefty boot in the liver which I believe was standard practise.
Now, if the hounds involved had never been trained to target foxes using similar techniques as above, except with live 'toys'

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/animal-cruelty-fox-hounds-hunting-16358138

and the unencouraged instinct to hunt foxes can be overcome, then in theory I can see no problem. However, as a former owner of a beagle, I very much doubt the innate urge to scent hunt will be overcome, and foxes getting ripped apart will be regarded as unintended collateral damage of a jolly good drag hunt to some, but others will secretly be getting off on it. At least the red coated brigade are honest and unashamed of their cruel intentions.
Unless you could guarantee the behaviour of the hounds, which you definitely cant, their tenacity to following animal scents is what makes them such a force, at best I think drag hunters are naive or optimistic , at worst bloodthirsty and cowardly.

at best I think drag hunters are naive or optimistic , at worst bloodthirsty and cowardly.

You need to separate drag hunting vs trail hunting.
Drag hunting has a history of avoiding killing foxes. That the hunt sabs leave them is pretty good evidence in my eyes that they are good at this as if those most opposed to fox hunting think they arent a problem then chances are they arent.
Trail hunting on the other hand uses "quarry scent" aka fox scent and is a recently invented hobby taken up by the former fox hunting groups.

Fair enough point, happy to be corrected, pardon my ignorance. So what scent do drag hunters use then? How do they overcome the prey drive of foxhounds?

Hunting is just as bad as eating meat in my book. If you see how farm animals are treated on the farm, in transport, and in the abbotoir it as bad if not worse than running for your life.
Kinda like aushchwitz vs hunger games. I know I'd rather take my chances running.

A few years ago, we were following a drag hunt. At then end of the hunt they passed a house in a country lane, when one of the hounds jumped into a garden after a pet dog and all the hounds went into a frenzy and followed. They tore the poor dog limb from limb, it never stood a chance and we could hear the cries of the poor dog from about .5km away.

There was always a very incorrect “class” element to the anti hunt campaign.

It's hardly surprising. A huge element of hunting is imposing your status on everyone else, the killing foxes bit is largely incidental.
I was forced to throw my youngest son over a wall and barbed wire fence a jump myself to get out of the way of a hunt galloping three abreast down a public single track lane. Being as they could see us from 300m away and judging from their expressions it was all a bit of a joke to them.
I wasn't being over cautious because even if the riders in front had been in control there was no way they were going to stop with twenty or so immediately behind them. I did try complaining but got nowhere.

@dyna-ti I’m not defending folk shooting dogs or fox hunting for that matter. I’m saying that shooting something in the head is painless and stress free, considerably (and scientifically proven to be) less so than abattoirs FWIW. You say that isn’t the case but I’m afraid you’re wrong (and are actually undermining your case for stunning).

Yeah I got that from the attitude of me the lowly non hunter, clearly not understanding the bigger picture.

Of course you could have just agreed that its as barbaric as the rest of fox killing industry, as it apears the forum agrees, but no you have decided to dig the hole deep as you can so lets examine those claims for a tad shall we.

So we'll start off here.

Umm, yes you can. That’s the entire point of a head shot.

A head shot yes(We'll ignore the sarcastic 'Umm' bit)
For starters its a brain shot, not a 'head' shot, and in hunting in general, by which i am referring to deer hunting its a chest shot, aiming to damage the heart, prevent it from pumping blood to the brain, bringing about unconsciousness and death. Hunters of deer are well aware the brain is a tiny target to hit, and with all the limitations of wind, bullet drop, the animal suddenly moving, such a shot is not desired because they dont want to cause unnecessary suffering, which stems more from having a wild injured frightened animal running loose and amok where they then have to track it and could themselves be attacked, so thee one shot kill is a professional aspect they aspire to.
With other hunting as in the amateur type rabbits, birds etc, where they dont have high caliber rifles, they are relying on concussion force. But even the most stupid amongst them if pressed would agree that that will cause some degree of suffering.
So a brain shot is ideal, but not really achievable in the majority of hunting scenarios.

To achieve it professionally in the sense of a non hunting aspect, its simply not a case of head= brain. Animals, especially dogs have pretty small brains and the positioning within the skull means to achieve instant death the shot has to be precise.
Asa said, food animals are stunned first, but the job of a killer in a slaughter capacity also involves whats known as emergency slaughter, with involves a 9mm pistol, and that individual is specially licensed and has undergone training as to where to place the muzzle to impact the brain to the point that the shot is effective.
I cannot say I know or can remember 100%, because it is a very long time since i covered this subject in an academic sense when training in the veterinary department of Glasgow abattoir to train in a 2 year course as a meat inspector. But the crux of it is the shot is in some animals taken from the front to back or back to front. The head needs to be tilted such and the shot taken so the bullet passes directly into the main part of the brain. For example for horses i think its from the front and dogs its from the rear or the head, at a specified angle, but its over 30 years now and i really cant remember for sure.
For captive bolt stunning of pigs, sheep or cattle. You draw an imaginary line from the horn center, to the eye center and at a 45d angle. For pigs the spot is lower than that of cattle and for sheep I think,not sure, but i think its straight down from the top of the head or from the back-Think its from the back, seem to remember some of this as i type it.

Even in the controlled environment these type of shots are difficult, animal move and getting exact placement even with practice does sometimes mean it misses its mark, fails to stun* and promptly gets back up again and believe me the last thing you want is a failed stun going on the rampage. So from there the next stages of bleeding it to death is carried out as rapidly as possible.
*Stunning.
This is a captive bolt, it penetrates into the brain but as the name implies it doesnt kill, and if the bleeding process isnt carried out forthwith, the animal will regain consciousness and get back up again. This at least should prove to you that even a penetrating shot isnt going to kill the animal as you imply it does, and this is be a skilled operator, used to the job and fully licensed.
The brain on a dog is much much smaller,and the chances of missing it are very high. as such in the emergency situation, like deer the preferred shot is to the heart, not the head.

(and are actually undermining your case for stunning).

Am I 😕
Have you ever witnessed it , i'll wager not. Have you done any papers on it or been tested on the practices concerning CB or compression stunning ?, again I reckon not. Or spent weeks working on the slaughter floor of an abattoir undergoing inspection training ?
I think like St Peter thats a thrice denial eh mate.

I think many of these hunters believe they are Robert De Niro and in their heads it a scene from the deer hunter or some other war type fantasy. but the reality of it they are causing suffering and are happy to do so for their own sick pleasure.

I’m getting the impression you know very little about shooting/hunting.

Absolutely not, and thank god for it. But I appear to have a far greater understanding of the processes of slaughtering animals for food.

" I’m saying that shooting something in the head is painless and stress free, considerably (and scientifically proven to be) less so than abattoirs FWIW. You say that isn’t the case but I’m afraid you’re wrong (and are actually undermining your case for stunning)."
So I think I'll call you out and say you haven't got a bloody clue as to what youre talking about.

So thats that and i feel discussion on this matter, at least from yourself, is purely speculative and not worth replying to any further.

Several years ago, having witnessed the Master of the Hunt lose his shit as he was denied access to the back of an industrial unit to persue a fox they were chasing, it was very clear that the “drag hunt “ they were supposed to be on was just a cover story.
When that was pointed out to him, it all became very aggressive, with several turning up on quad bikes to try to bully their point.
I think the fox new the score too, as it didn’t go far from the metal fence and seemed to be taunting them and the dogs. Had to chuckle at that.

Pauly
Free Member
TJ, I’m very anti-hunt but I think that monkeyboyjc has a point ref the killing. They’re not all doing it through blood lust.
Still barbaric though.

But by going along at all they are choosing to put themselves in the position that they may well see a sentient creature terrified and chased to exhaustion and then torn to pieces and that they’re perfectly OK with that possibility…

@scruffywelder - you are correct, but I don’t think some of the followers really think/comprehend the outcome of a ‘successful’ hunt. It’s just a ruddy good jolly.
I repeat that the whole thing is barbaric.

@dyna-ti

You're saying a lot but clearly not seeing the full picture. Yes deer are shot in the heart because yes, the ranges involved make a head shot tricky (I didn't think I had to dumb it down to brain shot but whatever). With the smaller quarry like rabbits, rats, foxes etc. you go for a head shot because you are a) closer and b) requiring less energy to achieve a humane kill.

All that said:

So a brain shot is ideal.

Was my entire point. Why was that so hard to agree with?

The rest is just uninformed conjecture on your part.

Ok
I’m not going to get dragged into this too far but I’ve spent a lifetime killing animals.
My utmost goal has been to kill it as instantly as possible. I shot a sheep the other week and it dropped like a brick and felt nothing, it literally was like a switch.
This bullshit about killing any animal involves sadistic pleasure is just that, bullshit.
I spent a long time killing my own food and enjoyed the fact I was doing it, but trust me, the killing is not part of the pleasure. You are proud of yourself if you stalk and kill an animal without it even knowing you are there, and are proud that the food on you plate came from an ethically justifiable source, so , quite frankly you can ram the sadistic crap up your hoop. It’s not true.

Brads - I agree that the difference between the hunts killing hounds with a head shot and what happens in an abattoir is really pretty minimal - but hunting foxes with hounds is inherently cruel - deliberately so, has no utility and the so called " trail hunts" have had their lies exposed by this

fox hunting - the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible

Fox hunting is inherently sadistic - its the whole point.

Well I’ve also been involved in digging foxes with terriers.
It wasn’t pretty and I was actually young when doing it and won’t go back to it but a fast kill was always the aim. Sadism was never a factor trust me.

Also as an aside, I spent decades coursing. Again, the dogs retrieved to hand and I killed the hare, for food. Now it’s only legal to hunt rabbits with dogs. The difference?? Beyond me.
Ratting with terriers anyone?.

This sadism label does not fit all Jeremy, the majority are not, regardless of the sport.

Digging foxes out using terriers is never a “fast kill”. It’s sadistic.

Digging foxes is sadistic as its all about killing animals for fun. there is no utility in it at all.

Hunts feed and provide shelter for foxes so they have plenty of prey for their hunting.

You might be blind to it Brads but most hunting and shooting is all about sadistic blood lust not utility

Harte coursing is also sadistic in tht you are chasing a terrified animal until its exhausted and caught

I do agree with you about some folk not understanding meat is animals

And yet. Dogs hold foxes at bay till dug,and the fox is killed, with a gun.
Sadism never entered the equation. You can surmise, but I was the one doing it so take from that what you like.
I never though of cruelty, only of getting the fox.

I know that using dogs attracts an unhealthy type, but that wasn't the "sport". Fox control was.
Even when you had a "hard" dog it was still sport , it was what you were brought up to do. You never considered cruelty and never intended it. There was never pleasure in injured or injuring animals, you were doing a job. Kill the fox.
Would I dig to dogs now ? No. But am I a sadist ? No.

I'll happily talk about what I have done in my lifetime, but I won't accept insults from people who preach without knowledge.

but most hunting and shooting is all about sadistic blood lust

Utterly wrong.

I think, as we live nearby to each other, a pint and a civilised discussion is in our future.

Might be interesting but you will never convince me about the sadism inherent in fox hunting with dogs because its obvious and well known - from deliberately chasing them to exhaustion to feeding and sheltering them to ensure a supply of prey to the ritual of "blooding"

Its not ignorance on my behalf - its a different point of view

What is this utility you speak of? Are you implying abbatoir killing is utility whereas fox killing is cruel?
There is no difference, very few people need to eat meat. There are 1/2 a billion veggies in Asia that are testament to that. Anti hunting is a total diversion by the meat eating lobby to stop people from thinking about the effing billions of animals slaughtered every day for your "utility", what a crock of shit. To me the left wing hand wrigning over blood lust and cruelty is a great way to absolve themselves of their own guilt of their own blood lust over chicken roast dinners and beef stew.
Every time you say utility another few hundered thousand animals are slaughtered for the meat eaters. And you are worried about a few foxes? What utter piffle. The cruelty is the same, in fact shooting is hugely less cruel than farming.

Digging to foxes is not fox hunting, but hey, I agree it would be interesting.

As an aside. Does anyone here use paper ? like write on it, or read it ?

I have a 5plusn8 type point to make !

I have a 5plusn8 type point to make !

Do it, yes I use paper, reading, printing, wiping my arse.

5plus8

Utility is if it has some use

so for example grouse shooting - the grouse get eaten, rat killing stops the spread of disease, cows killed for food get eaten but there is no utility in fox hunting - they are not eaten and its not vermin control because the hunts feed and shelter foxes to ensure a supply of prey.

You may argue that eating animals in unnecessary - and its a valid argument but a differnt one

Fox hunting is only about the killing for fun.

Has anyone any idea how many deer are killed every year simply in paper production ?

The pulp industry accounts for a huge proportion of deer culling.

Just saying likes.

As for vegetable growing and pigeon mortality ! well !.

Thank god for the sadists eh?

Brads - if there is utility in it its not (just ) sadism. when the only purpose is to enjoy the killing it is

I'd happily see 90% of the deer in scotland culled because of the damage they do to the ecosystem and their numbers have grown hugely over the past decades.

Fox killing - a load of dogs and hunters get what they want, does your utility trump theirs?
The logical fiction here is that you have defined utility as things you agree with or justify to yourself and you have defined no utility as the things you do not like - ie killing foxes.
It is a red herring. One mans utilty is another mans waste.
Not to mention the cruelty you assume is there may not be, but it is definitly inherent in the legal food chain and happens at several orderes of magnitude more than a few hundred foxes a year. Go and spend soe time on a farm, or factory farm, and follow the animals to the slaughterhouse. You'll think Huntsmen are pussy cats by the end of that.
You need a better argument, or spend your time fixing something that has an actual impact on the world. The fact that umpteen hours were wasted in parliamanet and poalice an court time over a few foxes when kids get reated cruely in the UK every day, and the disabled and the sick and the poor.
Human beings are shameless in their virtue signalling.

Woosh - thats the sound of the point flying right over your head

Well, not really.

I've always said I won't take criticism from anyone who eats veg grown in Britain. How many rabbits dies to make you're carrot soup ? .

Your point is fox hunting on horseback but you continually fail to separate it from any other field sport.

For the record I have worked to hounds (footpacks) utterly effective fox control on sheep farms.

Brads – if there is utility in it its not (just ) sadism. when the only purpose is to enjoy the killing it is

Enjoying eating meat, same thing. Stuff gets killed for your pleasure. Your definition of utility is an excuse. Your pleasure is utility, someone elses pleasure is not? Its logically bereft.