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Out in the car, running an errand this morning. Descending a minor country road I probably use 3 or 4 times a month on the roadie or in a car. Its quite well sighted and I'm not averse to "pressing on" in good conditions in either mode of transport (60mph limit). Its steep enough, that on the bike its a comfortable freewheel at high 20s/low 30s mph.
Today was claggy and horrible and the road was wet and covered in assorted mud/farm slurry, so I was (fortunately) taking it steady.
All of sudden maybe 30 hounds erupted, absolutely no warning, from a gap in the hedge I was barely even aware of, round the front of the car and headed up the way I'd just come, swiftly followed by 15 or 20 horse riders all dressed in tweeds. Not sure if they were galloping, or whatever the state back from that is, but riders stood up and head down, going for it. (think attack position on a bike). 20-30seconds worth from beginning to end.
I stopped hard enough that the ABS on both back wheels triggered. The dogs were diverting course to avoid running into me and the horses were only just clearing the now stopped car. 2 or 3 mph faster, a 1/4 second slower reacting, worse tyres - and there would have been carnage. If I'd been on the bike, I'd never have been able to brake hard enough on the greasy tarmac to stop, so I'd have been down on the deck.
How the * does this happen??? This had to be some kind of formal event - too many people, and with all those horses, the matching-kitted riders and so many dogs there must be a decent amount of infrastructure behind it, and therefore 'organisation'. What kind of Risk Assessment says its OK to let a bunch of animals charge un-marshalled out onto a road without warning? If it was an organised bike event - even a free one - there would have been marshals at road crossings (been there, got the hiviz), and even without - what on earth is going through their minds to go from a minor route to a more major one without giving way and checking its clear. As a rider, I'd never ride out onto any road from a trail exit without a good look first. I'd expect to get flattened otherwise!
Judging by location, I suspect it was the Barlow Hunt, who seem to have form for being *s. Problem is I can't prove anything, and there's no details of events on their website or social media without registering. I was a bit too shocked at the time to get out the car and try and talk/shout/rant at any of them, and I suspect I probably wouldn't have been coherent either!
This has rattled me more than it probably should - something so unexpected and random. I could have coped with a farm vehicle or a car lurching out from the same exit as they would have to have been going a fraction of the speed to make the turn onto the road, and even a tractor with trailer wouldn't have filled all the available space on the tarmac in quite the same way.
The trouble is, you're trying to apply standards, responsibility and liability to a group of people to whom they do not apply. Such considerations are only for us plebs.
Imagine your chances up against the beak if you'd hit one of his friends hounds (or worse still, a horse).
Would have been a waste of breath trying to remonstrate with them. You are but a mere shit they have trodden in that day. Must have been that pesky drag trail setter’s fault 😉
Disgusting barbaric people.
Armed now with my dashcam I'd have taken a little longer to brake than normal.
What is the question OP? You must have heard of fox hunting living in the country? Loads of dogs followed by horse riders. It was made illegal a while back but I don't doubt they still ride out for the lols. I think they're supposed to follow a scent trail these days but I bet they don't.
The 'elite' classes thing that the countryside is there purely for their use and enjoyment, everyone else doesn't matter. All you can do is get a dashcam and hope they miss you againg next time.
I think they’re supposed to follow a scent trail these days but I bet they don’t.
They lay the scent trail to deliberately go past where fixes live or are known to be, that way that can claim to have inadvertently come across one and unfortunately the dogs did what they're trained to do. Have grown up in an area that is well known for fox hunting and they really don't give a shit about the rules.
Lucky you didn’t meet the hunt ‘followers’ as well. In my experience they are worse than the hunt.
What a waste of break pads*
* Not really obviously but they are the most objectional type of people.
@jambourgie
I actually live in a major city. But yes, I've heard of foxhunting. I've never encountered it/them before, wasn't aware there was a hunt in the area and was completely unaware that I may may randomly stumble into one whilst minding my own business with absolutely zero warning. I've been using the roads and trails round this area for a decade now.
Like you, I'm of the understanding the "fox" bit is illegal. So they get a chap to drag a trail for them to follow. Absolutely fine. Unlike the poor fox, the trail dragger has a choice about where to route the event, and the ability to consider the suitability of various routes and junctions - more formally called a Risk Assessment, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. At which point, if the route was planned to cross that road at speed, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect signage as a bare minimum (exactly as you would for a "cycle event"), better yet - marshalling. Spending 2 minutes stationary so the riders could get their jollies wouldn't bother me much at all, the same way its nice when walkers wait to let us have a clear run at a bit of trail. The lack of any kind of planning and the entitlement is what's rather offensive. If they had a near miss with me - how many other roads are they crossing like that, how many other road users are having near misses? (as a contrast - in a different direction, I quite often come across Alpaca Trekking, which is always heavily and politely marshalled and are lovely to deal with).
Of course if its not been planned and risk assessed by the trail dragger, because the dogs aren't following a drag trail scent, then that opens up a whole other can of worms....
It the ****ing idiots that follow the hunt that does my head in that thinks it's acceptable to stop in the middle of the road or dump their cars half on the verge either side blocking the road.
Unfortunately they were meeting in my village again today - no sign of the drag. Took my dogs for a walk this afternoon, the horses had been down footpaths were there's no chance the drag would/could have gone as they are too narrow. They were also in dead end woodland with only one entrance/exit, again no chance a drag would have ventured in.
Sorry Jon. Just wrongly assumed you were a country dweller. I live in a city too, but used to live in a village with a hunt so am quite used to them. I guess it's the nature of the activity. Traditionally bounding after a wild animal, if all the riders have to stop at every gate to get marshalled across into the next field then the fox would pretty soon be in the next county. Not to mention making the entire thing quite boring.
I'm not condoning hunting btw. People that kill animals for a laugh are scum. End of story. But the bounding around the fields on the back of a horse does look like great fun.
Scum being scum
Imagine your chances up against the beak if you’d hit one of his friends hounds (or worse still, a horse).
Doubt they would give a shit about the horse, they certainly don't give a **** about the dogs. Hurt a rider and you'd be in trouble though.
if all the riders have to stop at every gate to get marshalled across into the next field then the fox would pretty soon be in the next county. Not to mention making the entire thing quite boring.
So just like mountain biking? Stop, get off, open the gate, go through, close the gate, get on, check its clear, get moving. Not such a big thing, is it? Indeed most of the bridleways round here have mounting blocks either side to make it easier for the horse riders. I wouldn't call it boring myself. Just something that has to happen as part of the ride. Sure it's nice if someone holds the gate for you, but you still slow down, say hi, say thanks, don't splash them etc.
...and there is (of course :rolleyes:) no fox, so what's the rush...?
I would report it all to the police, as a road safety issue and (agreeing with your point that a drag route should be set up to be safe) possible non-drag. It will be on the record, even if they do nothing. It wouldn't surprise me if the hunt has contacts in the police so be careful what you write.
Strangely, none of the people I knew who ride with hunts are posh or rich (partly due to the cost of keeping a horse!)
But agree the practice is not appropriate in the 21st (or 20th) century. Shame there isn't adequate enforcement of the legislation.
So just like mountain biking? Stop, get off, open the gate, go through, close the gate, get on, check its clear, get moving. Not such a big thing, is it?
Yeah, but only because they're not awesome enough to just pop a wheelie and jump the gate. I imagine if most MTB'ers could jump things they would, rather than stopping/applying PPE/Filling out form to use gate/open gate/close gate etc etc... 😉
Skittle the ****s. SMIDSY.
Didn't you hear them honking on a bugle?
Monday’s and Thursdays from September to March the Quantocks are disturbed by the entitled illegally hunting red deer with dogs. The establishment knows and at best turns a blind eye, but is probably taking part. Hangers on abound, clogging up bridleways with their 4x4s with no regards for access laws and no challenge from the likes of the National Trust who allegedly don’t condone hunting on their land. All for the thrill of the chase and the chance to run a magnificent stag to exhaustion and then shoot it once it’s cornered
jambourgie
Free Memberif all the riders have to stop at every gate to get marshalled across into the next field then the fox would pretty soon be in the next county. Not to mention making the entire thing quite boring.
Though of course that's illegal- this hunt would <sarcasm> be drag hunting or trail hunting not an actual animal and so there's no danger of it getting away. Though putting a drag route across a road like that would be pretty daft without some sort of stewarding.
Of course tehy could have purely coincidentally flushed a fox. But in that scenario, it doesn't matter if the fox gets away because the purpose was never to catch a fox in the first place. Right? </sarcasm>
Though of course that’s illegal- this hunt would <sarcasm> be drag hunting or trail hunting not an actual animal and so there’s no danger of it getting away
I wouldnt put "drag or trail hunting". The idiots will always be "trail hunting" since they had to create that term after the drag hunters wanted nothing to do with them.
Judging by location, I suspect it was the Barlow Hunt,
I think I went past that today. Above Chesterfield?
Seemed to be all ladies the group I saw. All looked very free of mud etc so maybe they hadn't started yet.
Yeah, that's probably fair Dissonance
If I’d been on the bike
You'd have heard them. Not that I approve of their behaviour, it's just that hunts make a lot of noise. Just one cantering horse makes a fair bit of noise and dogs aren't silent.
Met a pack of dogs on the road closely followed by a pack of twits on horses. Luckily I was being show my friends dad’s new John Deere.
Conversation went like this:
“You will have to reverse”
“No I won’t and you can get off my land”* (road was verged by family farm for miles and we had an idea which way they came)
“The dogs will lose the scent”
“It won’t matter when I have run over them” accompanied by Revving of 9 litres of agricultural diesel.
They then retreated.
Guess who got a visit from the police?
* purely for comic effect you understand
Lucky you didn’t meet the hunt ‘followers’ as well. In my experience they are worse than the hunt
I'm not a fan but I've usually found the actual hunt to be fairly polite and considerate. Those peculiar forelock tugging arseholes on the other hand...
These clowns have no regard for the law and break it routinely. a trail hunt would not go over a road like that so you know they are breaking the law - and a recent case has made it clear that like all other dog owners they have a duty to keep their dogs under control - which means them not running onto a road. the hunt is liable for all damaged caused by the dogs
its now totally banned on national trust land as well
Are hunt horses as easily spooked as normal horses? If so a loud peep of the horn and hopefully the guy riding it will fall off when the horse bolts…
Horse fine, rider not so much
This is why you need a dash cam.
If one of the dickheads manages to jump in front of your car you want to make damn sure you have proof they were idiots and caused it
Whilst I've no love of hunting, country roads are full of all sorts of things which run out into the road or just happen to block out and so on from pheasant and deer or hare's to tractors and horses and cyclists.
Slow down, watch where you're going (which isn't just the five metres wide strip of tarmac) and stop blaming other road users and wildlife for the fact you're driving sufficiently quickly your abs had to kick in you had to have great tyres and generally be an STW certified driving good not to have killed someone or something with your ton and half of metal.
Replace "hunt" with cyclists and see how different a response your post gets.
Yeah I've see I've seen this sort of thing before around where we are. Spilling out on to the road with chaotic scenes.
No regard to safety for anything.
Nothing countryside about it. Toffs enjoying excitement at wildlife's expense.
****s.
We can do without them.
This is where you need the anis soaked pack to drag behind your car 😀 That should confuse matters.
it won't dyna ti - they are not trained to follow it. they are trained to follow fox scent
True, this site shouldn't tolerate blatant hate speech against minorities who have been on the delivering end of privilege and oppression for centuries.
Beagles?
What "hate speech"
The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible
Hunting is a huge criminal conspiracy as has now been proven. They have been flouting the law and killing animals for fun after chasing them to exhaustion. Its deliberately cruel and has no utility
the sadistic bullies who do this should be expecting the opprobrium of every right minded individual
they are hateful criminal thugs.
they are hateful criminal thugs.
When they break the law.
Which they do constantly and have done since the hunting act. They flout it every time they meet.
Its proven that they are a criminal conspiracy and its proven they are by and large thugs - see the beatings dished out to Sabs on a regular basis.
I'll mention that to my petite and dainty 60 year old cousin who used to ride with a hunt.
mattsscm
Its not hate speech if its true BTW - thats always a good defense - its not libellous when its true. Hate speech only refers to a protected characteristic and being a sadistic thug is not a protected charectaristic
I’ll mention that to my petite and dainty 60 year old cousin who used to ride with a hunt.
So has she been present for fox kills since the "ban" has she ridden with a sham trail hunt that continues to kill foxes illegally?
If yes to either of those then yes - she is one of the criminal conspiracy and kills are sadistic - thats the point of it.
TJ, are you suggesting that every hunt, every huntsperson, takes part in illegal activity because it sounds an awful lot like you are.
It sounds an awful lot like you're saying that people with similar beliefs and hobbies to those that do are guilty by association.
It sounds a lot like you're advocating extrajudicial punishment of people who break the law*.
*I assume only particular ones mind.
yes I am because that is the truth
Trail hunts are a sham intended to cover up the killing of foxes. Everyone knows this. So anyone taking part in one of these sham hunts is knowingly part of a criminal conspiracy
There are no legal trail hunts. Drag hunting is different Every trail hunt sets out to break the law. Every member is a part of the criminal conspiracy
TJ, are you suggesting that every hunt, every huntsperson, takes part in illegal activity because it sounds an awful lot like you are
It's one of TJs highest of horses - I'm not disagreeing that most hunts have broken the law, and should be punished properly, and all the related intimidation and violence as well, but it's not every hunt, or every rider.
Its every rider in the hunts that break the law and what hunts do not break the law?
If you are part of the criminal enterprise you are a criminal
name me a TRAIL hunt that you believe does not break the law and I'll find criminality in that hunt
Thoroughly disusting and showing now respect what so ever for the views of others
When the ‘views of others’ involve thinking it’s ok to sadistically torment an animal for fun then they don’t deserve respect, only contempt
This appaling thread is no better than anyone moaning about poofs. Word used to get my point across.
Oh dear..
you forgot " and break the law deliberately" tp biker
I think it's actually spelt 'pouffe's'. This thread has taken a very strange turn indeed.
Ever heard of Mark Hankinson? Director of the Masters of the Foxhounds, the governing body for over 170 packs across the UK? This the chap who on camera said:
“We need to have clear, visible, plausible trail laying being done throughout the day … It’s a lot easier to create a smokescreen if you’ve got more than one trail layer operating, and that is what it’s all about, trying to portray to the people watching that you’re going about your legitimate business.”
His job is to represent the hunting community and was found guilty of encouraging others to break to law and use trail hunting as a ‘smokescreen’ for hunting love animals. I’d say when one of the blokes at the top encourages others to break the law than that’s a pretty damning indictment of the whole hunting community. And don’t come back with the argument that it’s just a random comment from a single person; it was done in a series of arranged webinars to 100+ MFHA members.
I have seen ‘trail’ hunts pursue live animals around where I live and yes, I have reported to the police & local sab groups. Why else do hunts need to go out with terrier men on quads if not to dig out foxes from bolt holes?
One final thing, look up where the term ‘berk’ comes from. It’s pretty fitting.
but it’s not every hunt, or every rider.
if its a trail hunt then as shown by the recent trial/zoom conference then I am not sure how you can argue this.
If you want to ride horses over the countryside without engaging in activities which skirt the hunting with dogs law then there is drag hunting. Even the hunt sabs agree that lot are okay.
If you chose to ride with a trail hunt which uses "prey scent" or "hunting with birds of prey" then expect to be treated with a lot of suspicion in the same way someone hanging around a bike storage area with a pair of boltcroppers and some scaffolding poles should be.
So come on hunt defenders -name me a hunt that is a "trail hunt" that used to be a kill hunt and does not now break the law
you guys are so certain not every hunter and hunter are lawbreakers so you must have this information to hand
time to put up or shut up
time to put up or shut up
This should be a laugh but I suspect some people will go for the "need to be proven guilty in a court of law" so to try and bypass that defence.
If you are so certain these hunts are sticking to the spirit of the law rather than going for loopholes or just relying on the police not being interested then why dont they meet the standards needed to become a draghunt? Since as a rough rule if the people most opposed to something, in this case hunt sabs, cant find a problem then I have to conclude they are legit beyond any reasonable doubt.
Is it on them to prove a negative?
NOpe = what I am saying is they should name a hunt they believe to be clean and i bet i find criminality in that hunt. I am confident there is not a trail hunt that does n. My bet is they will not be able to
If they are so convinced i am wrong then let them name the clean hunts
Is it on them to prove a negative?
They use "prey scent" and often have the hunt followers with terriers so yeah it is down to them to explain why those are needed.
You can prove the negative as the drag hunts demonstrate. Even the people most opposed to fox hunting give them a pass.
You cannot prove a negative and i am not asking them to do so. I merely ask them for the name of the non criminal hunt - that mythological beast.
I’m not sure how I can take someone seriously who’s talking about use of hate speech whilst at the same time feels the need to use a homophobic slur to illustrate their point…
I’m not sure how it is possible to compare people who enjoy riding bicycles for pleasure, with people who seem to enjoy chasing another being for pleasure and take enjoyment in its dismemberment by dogs…
Grew up next door to a pub where the local hunt used to gather.
What's wrong with a bunch of braying drunks blundering around aggressively damaging hedges/fences/horses, ripping foxes to pieces with dogs then daubing fox blood onto their children's faces?
If you don't get it you're just not a 'proper country person' and it's perfectly legitimate to threaten/bully you. Apparently.
I’ll mention that to my petite and dainty 60 year old cousin who used to ride with a hunt.
I think it's fair to say that even as a petite and dainty 60 year old you would have had to be remarkably intellectually subnormal to be a regular attendee at a trail hunt and oblivious of what was going on. The alternative is complicit and agree with the law breaking by your continued participation. Which do you think she is, a dribbler or a knowing law breaker?
We have a boxing Day hunt in our village. A big spectacle and every one knows it's an absolute sham. We are just outside the village and can see and hear the dogs moving across land where it would be impossible to lay a scent trail. They come up through our garden and all our neighbours have to lock in our cats and dogs on boxing Day due to this. We've complained to the hunt and been told they have no control of the dogs and what scent they pickup. So move if you don't like what goes on in the countryside.
For those that take part they see it as a cultural act and have the view of, well we've always done it. They despise newcomers or townies moving in and telling them what they are doing is wrong.
I can understand the need to control foxes in some areas but turning it in to a game and circus for fun is disgusting.
Can you borrow a sheep and a shotgun for the day?
I can understand the need to control foxes in some areas
Its really not about fox control at all. Many hunts provide dens and feed for foxes to ensure a supply of prey.
We used to get the hunt turn up in our garden looking for their dogs.
The dogs are nasty things. Unfortunately for them we had a bantam cock and a feral cat both more than capable and extremely willing to attack first and not bother with any questions. Watching 1.5kg or extremely angry tiny chicken come at a big dug going cross eyed trying to track the spurs slashing it's nose to shreds was hilarious.
I can understand the need to control foxes in some areas but turning it in to a game and circus for fun is disgusting.
We've lost chickens, geese and lambs to fixes on many occasions. They are still very welcome in our garden, beautiful wild animals. We just did everything we could to try and prevent them getting the livestock. Two Shetland ponies were pretty good shepherds for anti fox action.
why dont they meet the standards needed to become a draghunt? Since as a rough rule if the people most opposed to something, in this case hunt sabs, cant find a problem then I have to conclude they are legit beyond any reasonable doubt.
Because they have the delusional belief that the hunting act will be overturned at some stage. They believe that they are maintaining the hounds familiarity with fox scent until that happens. Drag hunting hounds don't follow fox scent and they believe this will erode their hunting ability and over time, the bloodlines of the established hunting packs. They also believe that by simulating the structure of an actual hunt as closely as possible they are preventing traditions and knowledge being lost and keeping hunt employees in work.
l'm not arguing their case or agreeing with any of that, but I live in the middle of hunting country with a hunt kennels a mile from my house. There is strong (though not universal) support for the hunt amongst locals, even if they are not directly involved. The above is the reason I was given when asking "why not drag hunting"?
The dogs are nasty things
big dug going cross eyed trying to track the spurs slashing it’s nose to shreds was hilarious.
The dogs have a shit life. Though fed and housed they are never shown affection. They are beaten if they don't behave how the huntsman wants and shot out of hand when lame or no longer useful. It's not their fault.
I’ve mentioned it before on previous fox hunting threads , but when you see a huntmaster going ballistic as he is refused access to the rear of a commercial property on a business park to gain access to the fox that is taking refuge behind the palisade fence, you see exactly what they are all about.
They come up through our garden and all our neighbours have to lock in our cats and dogs on boxing Day due to this.
They ride through your garden? I wouldn’t be standing for that shit at all.
Whilst I’ve no love of hunting, country roads are full of all sorts of things which run out into the road or just happen to block out and so on from pheasant and deer or hare’s to tractors and horses and cyclists.
I tend to find that tractors, horses and cyclists tend not to suddenly appear over walls travelling perpendicular to the direction of travel. Hares and pheasants aren't worth risking yourself over so just get a tap of the brake, deer are just pure luck regardless of speed.
Surely the mods should be banning people here for their hate posts.
Good idea, I have a decent idea of who should go first.
Rev’s description there ^^ reads like something from a Cold War Steve montage. Bizarre.
They ride through your garden? I wouldn’t be standing for that shit at all.
Not always that easy. We live in a very rural spot and there is a covenant on our deeds that a local landowner retains the sporting rights to our land (garden and small paddock) even though we own it. It is common in the countryside for sporting rights to be sold or retained separately to property ownership.
In theory the hunt could come charging through our garden and there's not a lot we could do about it. Though if they did, I'd be filming and recording any damage or illegal hunting. It hasn't happened yet, but they've come close, in adjacent fields and along the bridleway our house is accessed from. We try to keep our dog, cats and chickens inside when the hunt are about.
I wouldn’t have purchased a house with that as part of the sale. If they retain any sort of rights then you don’t really own it. Utter madness
The dogs have a shit life. Though fed and housed they are never shown affection. They are beaten if they don’t behave how the huntsman wants and shot out of hand when lame or no longer useful. It’s not their fault.
Is a good point and one I did intend to caveat.
I do have a picture somewhere of a hound that decided hanging round being fed bits of bacon by my dad was a far better life for it than the above. It came into the kitchen and just plonked itself down.
I am still awaiting the names of these trail hunts that do not break the law. come on chaps - you were so confident that its not all hunts so please name one that is not a part of the criminal conspiracy
I wouldn’t have purchased a house with that as part of the sale. If they retain any sort of rights then you don’t really own it. Utter madness
We've been here 6 years and it's never happened, nor whilst in the the hands of the previous owner. Ownership of the surrounding farms has changed several times since this was enacted too, so the validity and origin of it is a little blurred. I strongly suspect that it's an historical anachronism and they may not even be aware of it. It's a tiny spot on a huge area of land hunted over. Even if they do know they could, they know it's not a good look, especially when they are likely to be filmed and become youtube famous. It would also be very hard to maintain a defence of legal trail hunting if no trail had been laid and they chased a fox across my raised beds!
It's our dream retirement cottage in a stunning location and we are happier here than we've ever been. Had we not bought it because of some vague and unlikely possibility of 'legal trespass', then we'd have have made a huge mistake. I'm grateful every day that we didn't. YMMV.
The dogs have a shit life. Though fed and housed they are never shown affection. They are beaten if they don’t behave how the huntsman wants and shot out of hand when lame or no longer useful. It’s not their fault.
Exactly. Absolutely vile, yet apparently some people think that calling them out for the scum they are is akin to homophobia🤔
I am still awaiting the names of these trail hunts that do not break the law.
OK, I'll go. Not because I like hunting, I really don't for all the reasons stated and I think they should have just banned it properly rather than given them the trail hunting loophole, but I'm intrigued to know what evidence you'll be able to find that they are breaking the law.
Cheshire Forest Hunt.
Replace “hunt” with cyclists and see how different a response your post gets.
I think that was his point. Had that been a similar sized/organised group of cyclists in an event there would have had to be risk assessment/sign/marshals /whatever