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Not sure I’d fancy my chances on the upper deck on a train from Sheffield to London. It goes through the first tunnel after a few miles which is barely high enough for a standard carriage.
The world's moved on a lot since HS2 started, or even since it started going badly, costs are spiraling, and no real sign that they'll come down, with even a simple assessment pointing to further increases.
The big thing was to link the two large hubs London and Birmingham, but not exactly a huge saving in terms of time if they'd put it up against cheaper options, same with capacity, we're now in a world where business want to do most meetings over skype/teams/etc, i know our work and supporting companies have jumped into online meetings big style, and i can't see them going back, the savings in time and cost are huge, COVID actually had a few benefits for business, it forced them to change archaic processes and suddenly management have bought right into it. Supporting this approach would be good and probably allow the same level of internal business for the UK.
It would be interesting to see an assessment now of what we will get at the current plan, forecast the cost of tickets and so on, then see what the uptake would be, i still struggle to work out how going back up to scotland for me is cheaper via the plane than on a train, and how much UK PLC pay the railways to make it the most expensive form of travel!
they could whack double-decker trains in on longer routes to increase capacity. It doesn’t double capacity, but it would add around 50% with no changes to infrastructure needed at all.
You'd need to raise every bridge, rebore every tunnel and double the height of all the overhead electric wiring not to mention rebuild half the stations - anything with a roof on it would need complete overhaul.
Next?
errr. Height of bridges?
Double deckers do come up every now and again but just not realistic in this country. Also because you’d probably have to have the doors at the end access and egress would be slower, so any capacity increase you might gain could well be lost in extra time waiting at stations..
They were tried briefly in 1946 or so though if you want to Google it..!
Double deckers
Too many low bridges/tunnels, the british rail network hasn't really been updated since the industial revoloution.
You’d need to raise every bridge, rebore every tunnel and double the height of all the overhead electric wiring not to mention rebuild half the stations – anything with a roof on it would need complete overhaul.
yes, this.
Next?
Make every train half the interior height so still get a double decker but without any change in carriage height? People would need to crawl to their seats though. Or remove all seating and make carriages standing only? (All tongue in cheek suggestion I hasten to add).
Take 2 lanes of the M1 & M6 and build 2 tracks in each direction. Freight on one and fast trains on the other. Stupid expensive road charging on those roads subsidising cheap freight and tickets.
Or my preferred option, bore 2 tunnels under every motorway and make a container conveyor. Charge lorries off the road to pay for it. Delivery hubs at entry points to big cities that only allow zero emissions vehicles.
You can’t add longer trains without upgrading every major station in the UK to accommodate them.
round here and I think the transpennine routes the old platforms are much longer than most trains. Investment in new rolling stock would have given much more bang for the buck
You can’t convert to electric running without massive disruption, probably over weekends/bank holidays, for the next 10-15 years and the travelling public would never go for that.
Managed it on the main Edinburgh / Glasgow line - one of the few 21st century services I know of
Its really was not HS2 or nothing - the amount of money spent could have got much greater benefits. Cross pennine and the rest of the north of England in particular but also in Scotland.
You can’t add longer trains without upgrading every major station in the UK
You can and we do, but there's an anouncement on the train saying, next station has a small platform, so get to the middle carridge if you want to to get off 😀
Capacity is over 100% at peak times.
I used to get the train into Leeds, about 4 stops out, quite often the train would be well over maximum capacity once the train was 2 stops out.
Luckily, I'm 4 stops out, so I can usually get a seat rather than standing.
us folk up here dont want to come to london
I agree. But some of us want to be able to travel between cities here as if we were part of a 21st century country, and to travel to other places South of us, and to many North of us. Today's decision basically means new rail is only for the South East and places very close to it. The rest of us can go hang. Or join the traffic. Or fly. Levelling down.
Its really was not HS2 or nothing – the amount of money spent could have got much greater benefits.
90% of the money "saved" by this abandonment of new rail in this region is gone... as if by magic... only 10% is to go to alternative projects. This was also going to happen if the core infrastructure investment was withdrawn. We're being completely ****ed over while investment continues in the South East and its satellite regions. Levelling down.
kelvin, your continued repetition of 'levelling down' reduces your posts to meaninglessness.
You can’t add longer trains without upgrading every major station in the UK to accommodate them
This is nonsense, most of the trains people want to be longer are at the moment 2 carriages long.
Boris will probs be fvoted back in though;
Leaders should lead from the front... it doesn't send out a good message to younger gererations though if your'e a slipperly lying ****.
Levelling down
HS2 paid my wages for a couple of years. Trust me it’s a waste it money. 😀
HS2 paid my wages for a couple of years. Trust me it’s a waste it money
I've done some NHS suff back in the day, the rule of thumb is drag it out, as it's a cash cow.. drag it out and put costs.
frigging bullshit.
Lots of discussion passengers here... but I assume rail freight has no future in Britain now, or is everything to go by lorry? Levelling up in any real way is out the window now as industrially the north of england is no mans land
Honestly, what is the bloody point (unless you are on the board of a major civils firm)?
they could whack double-decker trains in on longer routes to increase capacity.
The new triple decker 'coffin trains' are the answer. Everyone lying flat in a 2ft high slot.
kelvin, your continued repetition of ‘levelling down’ reduces your posts to meaninglessness
The government have just scrapped all new rail projects in my region. A region that returned lots of Tory MPs promising a “levelling up” programme for us. The reality is we’re getting **** all, while projects continue in London, the South East, and areas close to it. I’ll make fun of that deceitful bullshit phrase as often as I want while we’re talking about this abandonment of our area, our businesses and our families. West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Manchester all having the brakes put on their future development. Levelling down.
Levelling down is an appropriate phrase. Given the investment in Crossrail etc, unless the north is given the means to keep pace, that is exactly what is happening.
Rail timetables around here have been slashed to bits since covid. Admittedly this is a rural area, but I see no evidence that those resources have been sent to the commuter or cross-pennine routes.
Levelling down is an appropriate phrase. Given the investment in Crossrail etc, unless the north is given the means to keep pace, that is exactly what is happening.
Exactly.
The public purse spend per head on public transport in the south east is huge compared with the rest of the UK.
The projects that are proposed (and/or funded) often focus on the access to London and benefit to South East.
When are people going to realise the whole ‘levelling up’ thing was b***hit right from the start - it was nothing more than a catchphrase.
I’ll make fun of that deceitful bullshit phrase as often as I want while we’re talking about this abandonment of our area, our businesses and our families. West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Manchester all having the brakes put on their future development. Levelling down
It's just kind of pointless to keep adding it to the end of your posts on here, you are preaching to the (mostly) converted
the 4 miles from my house to Bank Quay station, finding somewhere to park and walking the last bit took 45 min
Herm, now let me see, I'm sure there must be an easier way of travelling that 4miles.. 😃
Apologies, I wasn’t trying to change anyone’s mind, just venting. My only real point is that this isn’t just some fast trains to London that won’t happen (and I would be unlikely to use), it wrecks all the new rail programmes up here in an area where the service in normal years is failing and packed to bursting. No building back better for us. And definitely not for Bradford.
Kelvin absolutely sympathise with that view but look at the title of this thread - spiralling costs. I guarantee that even the Western leg will still go massively over budget, and once all the money is gone there will be no more left for other improvements…. Transpennine route upgrade, electrification schemes, parkway stations - all these things have been around for years - not dependent on HS2 but still haven’t happened…
I guarantee that even the Western leg will still go massively over budget, and once all the money is gone there will be no more left for other improvements….
This argument gets used a lot in very expensive / very controversial projects, that the money would be better spent [insert anything else that you feel is more deserving].
HS2 is funded by grant-in-aid from the government, the sponsoring department being DfT. There aren't really detailed controls over exactly what the money gets spent on (as there would be with a general grant which is often extremely specific) however it's basically ring-fenced "for the aims of that organisation" (the "organisation" in this case being HS2 which is operating as an executive non-departmental public body).
You have to go into a fair bit more detail of how Governments generate money and income (most of which is beyond me) but the basic thrust is that it's money "generated" for the specific purpose of HS2. It's not like a household budget where there's a set amount of savings and you're deciding on whether to spend it on a new bike or a redecorating the lounge.
It exists solely for the purpose of building HS2.
Northern regional newspapers expressing what must be a pretty much universal opinion up here about this latest in a very very long list of grubby broken promises about investment in the north
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1460500761167736837?s=21
It exists solely for the purpose of building HS2.
its still got to be paid for in some form and it still would have been better value to spend it elsewhere
The magic money tree exists for london based transport projects and a bit of the old porkbarrel but magically disappears when the north or Scotland needs anything
It’s not just about the vast sums of money that’s being spent to benefit a specific part of the country that always benefits from a hugely disproportionate level of funding in areas like transport
It’s the political message that this lot care no more for the north than any other Tory administration, and that phrases like ‘Levelling Up’ and ‘NorthernPowerhouse’ were never anything more than sound bites
We all knew that anyway, but this latest betrayal just hammers it home
I just hope it’s at the forefront of everyone’s mind at the next election
You’d need to raise every bridge, rebore every tunnel and double the height of all the overhead electric wiring not to mention rebuild half the stations
Raising the height of the electric wiring on the east midlands line isn’t going to take long, it barely makes it out of the south east at the moment.
We’re basing all the economics on the current ticket pricing at the moment, which currently means that if you are travelling from Sheffield or Chesterfield with a family using a railcard booking in advance the price is pretty much the same as traveling by taxi. The trains on the line are currently pretty busy although you stand a pretty good chance of getting a seat at the moment which beats standing till Leicester or Derby.
It exists solely for the purpose of building HS2.
So it's Schroedinger's money then?
Herm, now let me see, I’m sure there must be an easier way of travelling that 4miles
Go on then, tell me. The bus took 36 min plus a 10 min walk to the station, and the first bus didn't get me there before the train left. There's nowhere secure to leave a bike at the station, and my employers forbid cycling on business journeys on safety grounds (although they encouraged commuting by bike).
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/4fa440b9-bf4a-43cb-a6a8-374a7008b084
Grant Shapps on the Integrated Rail Plan now.
So, how long do you reckon they’ll carry on with the ridiculous pretence that the Birmingham to Manchester leg is still going to be built, honest. No, really, it is… definitely!
They’ve got to leave it a reasonable amount of time, I suppose, or they might as well have got it all out of the way in one hit
But they can’t leave it so long so that people actually start to make real-life decisions based on it?
18 months?
And what do we reckon the final outcome will be?
I’m going for 150 billion quid spent and what will effectively be a commuter line from Birmingham to London will be opened by Prime Minister Carrie Johnson in 2035
York Leeds Manchester Liverpool
This needs a highspeed/capacity line.
Indeed. It’s not going to get one though. Or anything else, for that matter. Just some old buses running on Victorian infrastructure
It looks like even the northern Tories aren’t prepared to stick their necks out and defend this one
https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1461297977981644802?s=21
https://twitter.com/pippacrerar/status/1461303834878357505?s=21
Don't worry about the Northern Tories.
They're still Tories. They've not been there too long but they will be doing Tory stuff like dirty hooker sex or gambling or wife-bashing or something.
Soon the Tory whips will have the dirt on them and they'll shut their wee mouths.
I guess "The North" can consider this another step in Scotland's footsteps to devolution and possibly more.
But they can’t leave it so long so that people actually start to make real-life decisions based on it?
Why not? Homes have already been compulsory purchased in Yorkshire, and huge amounts of money sunk on preparations here, despite all new lines now stopping at or before its boundaries.
Today is good news for Yorkshire, in the same was as another £40billion being spent on public transport in London (and connecting it to the honorary southern county of Cheshire) is always good for Yorkshire… we get to experience the joys of a modern country on the rare occasions we head down to the capital. Which of course we do less and less now due to being priced off all lines South to help mitigate the packed services.
I can't see the logic of building the Eastern leg of HS2 as far as the East Midlands and not continuing it as far as Sheffield and Leeds.
Bradford has been particularly shafted by the duplicitous Johnson, who only a couple of months ago was promising that the Eastern leg of HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail were definitely happening despite some rumours surfacing about them being scrapped. It's the 7th largest city and has crap rail connectivity.
who only a couple of months ago was promising that the Eastern leg of HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail were definitely happening
https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1461350320987017219?s=21
Your Bradford comment is spot on.
Double deckers
Certainly not an option on GWR! A huge amount of time and money was spent on Box Tunnel, needing to lower the whole rail bed in order to get the wiring for electrification in place, and then the whole electrification process just stopped at Swindon, being concentrated on the northern route to Bristol Parkway, so Chippenham and Bath still have the trains, because they’re diesel/electric, but no electric. In order for the overhead gantries and wires to be installed, loads of bridges had to be rebuilt with ugly concrete or steel bridges, and stations have to be heavily modified to raise roofs and footbridges/passenger access put in by Brunel to take the trains - double-deck trains are just impossible to accommodate. And much of it still hasn’t been started.
The new triple decker ‘coffin trains’ are the answer. Everyone lying flat in a 2ft high slot.
Appropriate for wage slaves I suppose.
I've very mixed views on this.
I live and ride near what would have been the Toton HS2 hub. I'm 52 years old. Building HS2 would have disrupted my local riding and my commute to work for much of the rest of my life, realistically. Might finally gave properly separated the Nottingham/Derby divide.
It's great that the Tories are getting a kicking for breaking the initial promise to level up. But I can see how IF the promised funding for alternative schemes in the North is delivered, it may actually deliver more benefits and more quickly for people up there.
"If" is doing all the lifting in that sentence, obviously.
I presume you commute by car then? The “alternative schemes” will disrupt commuter services for years in a way the new lines would not. Upgrading lines means engineering works while they are ongoing (and they always take longer than estimated in government plans), and even once completed, having higher capacity and faster long distance services on those lines will mean clashes with stopping commuter services at stations and on lines.
Yep and without newines it means more freight on the roads too
Its a tricky one to decide which way I sit on this too. I always thought HS2 was arse about face. As per previous posts it was kinda obvious that starting from London meant by the time it reached the midlands the northern leg would be at risk as money was siphoned into the pit that was the southern leg. On the flip side the gov't is pushing us into a position of transport poverty as the drive to eradicate fossil fuel cars will likely leave many without realistic & reliable transport options going forward. Urban areas without the space to charge vehicles, higher electric car prices as battery components start to become more scarce, ranges of vehicles topping out, extortionate rail fares (coupled with high electricity costs) as we pay for these new train lines.
Its all adding up to a big mess down the line and this might actually be the right choice (to try and do something quick now) but it seems like they took their merry time and a shed load of money to spot the obvious flaws in the plan.
It’s the 7th largest city and has crap rail connectivity.
The whole of the UK has crap rail connectivity unless you want to get to/from London. I recall watching a pretty compelling economics lecture a while ago (not usually my subject for entertainment). It clearly showed a correlation between the economic prosperity of a location with its degree of connectivity (how well connected that node is on a topology graph). It seemed to apply to road, rail, shipping, air, water/sewage, telephone, internet - every layer of technology through time enhanced the prosperity of the well connected nodes at the expense of the less connected nodes.
If Boris' real objectives are:
- helping the rest of the country be as prosperous as the SE
- saving the union
- fixing the logistics mess caused by Brexit
- tackling climate change
He needs to ensure maximum interconnectivity of the whole of the UK. I'd be surprised if that means one scheme or the other. A proper rail infrastructure would mean you could drive a truck onto a train at various hubs around the UK (perhaps each within 2 hrs drive of >90-95% of the population) and pop out in France/Belgium (or anywhere on the continent). That moves the logistics bottlenecks away from the ports, moves transport to a greener format, and makes commercial opportunities for business around the country. BUT if he really is keen to save the Union his infrastructure needs to at least connect Wales and Scotland AND at least a decent port for connecting to (Northern) Ireland.
The nuance often missed in this is that high-speed isn't necessarily about shaving 15 minutes off a Birmingham MP's weekly commute, its about making capacity for the slower speed local commuters, and freight. Even if the revised plans are better at achieving the above objectives (I don't know I've not seen any modelling of either just political bluster) then they've made an unmitigated disaster of announcing it. Having seen, for example, the impact of electrification on commuter lines it will in 5 years have a positive individual impact on those who already commute but only after inflicting 2-3 years of misery on them. That misery will drive more people to just drive because its easier and create a stigma with rail that stops others who should benefit from it adopting it. Thats all too late to convince the "Northern Commuter" that boris is acting for them. I wonder what he's going to pull out his bag of political bribes to convince them to vote Blue next time.
He needs to ensure maximum interconnectivity of the whole of the UK.
I don't believe that was ever a goal of this whole scheme.
(An example of how archaic and chaotic the rail service in the north is, it requires a walk between stations in Glasgow...)
(An example of how archaic and chaotic the rail service in the north is, it requires a walk between stations in Glasgow…)
And Bradford, Manchester, Exeter, etc.
In fact I’m glad in one way I don’t live in Bradford any more as they’ve been royally shafted. Go see Bradford Interchange and then look at Kings Cross. Stations from different centuries.
He needs to ensure maximum interconnectivity of the whole of the UK.
Given the massive opposition to the first step towards a decent link, it's likely to be the general public that puts paid to that idea.
Interesting document here about the congestion in Manchester (basically can't fit any more trains in!):
Interesting document here about the congestion in Manchester (basically can’t fit any more trains in!):
I’m reasonably closely involved in the MRTF. It’s a bit of a dogs dinner to be honest, a whole range of compromises and proposals that suit no one. Sheffield (my main involvement) loses its direct service to Manchester airport as a result.
As you say the main problem is lack of track and platforms for through running services. It’s been a known capacity bottleneck for years which hasn’t been tackled but is now biting people on the arse.
Be interesting to see who gets to buy the compulsorily-purchased land now.
I wonder if any of the consultancies or large companies will have liquidated damages or compensation with the cancellation, shouldn’t be, but this is always a sign of how much of a cash cow the contract is.
Quick question, why stop the line at Marsden and not take it into Huddersfield just a few miles further?
It’s cheaper. They’d stop it earlier, but that’s where the tunnel entrance is. This is all about cutting spending plans, and the vast majority of those cuts hitting Yorkshire to minimise their negative effects further South.
[ Also, the new line was supposed to route towards Bradford from there, not Huddersfield. The line to Huddersfield was to be upgraded not augmented, and that’s still happening … it’s part of the “new” upgrading (re)announced to distract from Yorkshire now getting no new lines at all, beyond that in the tunnel entrance. Pretty much the opposite of what has been promised for years by the two slippery untrustworthy individuals in the most powerful posts in government. ]
argee - what's been canned was so far into the future that, unless DfT were monumentally stupid, there wouldn't be any contractual commitments so no LDs or other comp.
I know it's all about cutting costs but either do something or don't, if it's not going to Bradford / Huddersfield then just sack off the whole branch. Tempted to buy my mates house there now as prices will rocket as a rural commuter town.
If Boris’ real objectives are:
They aren't. Johnson's first, last, and middle objectives are
Boris
Given the massive opposition to the first step towards a decent link, it’s likely to be the general public that puts paid to that idea.
This is how I remember it. Then when it gets cancelled it’s all a load of “it’s not fair” wailing. 😆
Personally I’m quite glad as the proposed line would’ve destroyed a part of one of my rides. I can live without getting to London eight minutes quicker. I’d rather drive anyway rather than pay £££ to stand up in a claustrophobic tube
If you’d rather drive, then getting future increases in freight and passengers onto the rail network, and out of your way, is entirely in your interest.
That’s true 😊
Given the massive opposition to the first step towards a decent link, it’s likely to be the general public that puts paid to that idea.
The irony of this whole thing is that the leaders of the City regions and constituencies of the north were largely positive about HS2 and they've just had all their parts of the scheme scrapped or watered down and are now feeling justifiably betrayed. But the leg thats going ahead will be passing through areas that were universally hostile to it.
So they've managed to **** absolutely everybody off. Well... everyone who isn't a shareholder in a construction firm. Quite an achievement.
Has anyone honestly heard anyone say anything positive about this weeks developments who isn't Grant Shapps?
The whole project is now a total farce. Particularly to anyone who has the misfortune to have to use the antiquated and useless excuse for rail services in the north. I suspect its going to get more and more farcical as its ambitions are watered down yet further (does anyone really believe it'll get past Birmingham?) and costs continue to escalate
I can live without getting to London eight minutes quicker.
How many times? That isn't the main advantage of high speed rail. Why aren't you listening?
That isn’t the main advantage of high speed rail. Why aren’t you listening?
Isn’t it? That’s what I was told/read/heard when it was first mooted.
Years ago.
Moving rapidly towards £100billion.
Cost of an aircraft carrier - £4 billion.
Isn’t it? That’s what I was told/read/heard when it was first mooted.
Years ago.
More of a bad sales pitch and lazy reporting than anything else. (Or at least that’s the argument)
High Speed Rail would add capacity onto new lines freeing up space on local lines. Basically lifting the ‘inter city’ traffic out of the existing network. They’d also be a bit quicker. No one seems to like it that much, so **** it, just keep building motorways.
Even if tbe extra capacity is true IT ONLY BENEFITS SOUTH OF BIRMINGHAM
I don’t understand what hs2 was ever meant to achieve apart from increasing the London commuter belt. It is still going to the wrong London station. To be integrated transport it needs to go into st Pancras do it links with Eurostar. So far the only prior benefiting are the army of corporate consultants
It is still going to the wrong London station. To be integrated transport it needs to go into st Pancras do it links with Eurostar.
It would have been better but it really doesn’t matter that much. It’s one stop on 2 different tube lines. I can’t think of many people that couldn’t manage that. Most people aren’t carrying a mountain of luggage 99% of the time either so that argument isn’t going to hold economically.
The real opportunity missed is not linking in Heathrow, Birmingham, Manchester and East Midlands airports. Obviously you can get to most of Europe from Birmingham or Manchester but it’ll be a long time until you can catch a direct flight to, for example, Brazil.
Even if tbe extra capacity is true IT ONLY BENEFITS SOUTH OF BIRMINGHAM
Spelling mistakes, no punctuation and some ALL CAPS, but still barely a sentence and no swearing. 3/10, you're better than this.
Long day watching rugby?
That’s what I was told/read/heard when it was first mooted.
Perhaps only if you look at headlines?
Even if tbe extra capacity is true IT ONLY BENEFITS SOUTH OF BIRMINGHAM
Yes, but a high speed network has to start somewhere doesn't it? Seems like the biggest mistake the government made was not outlining the whole network up front.
It was a shit plan from the beginning.
Seems like the biggest mistake the government made was not outlining the whole network up front.
Unambitious plan, could have done much more to join transport infrastructure and to take freight off the roads.
Yes, but a high speed network has to start somewhere doesn’t it?
So start where you get most bang for your buck? One of the northern cities and make it the hub both east/ west and north /south
So start where you get most bang for your buck? One of the northern cities and make it the hub both east/ west and north /south
Doesn't really matter where you start, it has to end up as a network before you can actually run any trains along it. There's an argument to say that if it had started in Birmingham and built outwards to Manchester, Leeds and London simultaneously, it would all have been built, the problem is that the construction requires Hybrid Bills to go through Parliament (which take AGES, you can read a bit about the process here: https://www.hs2.org.uk/what-is-hs2/hs2-in-parliament/) and there's also a limitation on the amount of skilled labour to run what would essentially be three massive construction projects at the same time.
Starting in Manchester or Leeds wouldn't work because the whole point was to link up HS2 with Northern Powerhouse Rail and you need to know what HS2 is doing before you can integrate the NPR part of it. The Strategic Outline Case (SOC) for NPR was supposed to have been presented to Government last year but Gov asked for it to be delayed until after the IRP came out. The IRP has been delayed for over a year now which put the brakes on any further NPR work and now the whole SOC needs revising to cope with the realities of (the lack of) HS2.
It's just spectacularly short-sighted from the Government - it's supposed to be a transformational network for most of the UK with the possible options of later extension to Scotland, complete regeneration of the north (certainly the "lower half" of the north between the Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds/Sheffield and Hull corridor) and catering for the next 100 years of rail use but oh no, a few disjointed projects here and there, half of which were promised and then scrapped a few years ago by - umm, who was it now...? - oh yes, the Tories.
The other benefit would've been more goods going by rail freight and getting lorries off the motorways
Ah well
It’s just bleedin obvious that stand-alone NPR would have huge benefits irrespective of what happens with HS2. I don’t get why there are any dependencies other than figuring out where the Leeds and Manchester HS2 terminii would be.