[Closed] HR advice regarding child care

Union?

How long has the arrangement been going on for? - if its years then you can argue custom and practice ie the flexible hours have become a part of her contract.

All companies have a duty to accept reasonable adjustments for family friendly working. If these adjustments have worked fine in the past then they are reasonable without dispute therefore changing them is not possible.

She must get a copy of the organisations "family friendly" policy

Asking her to attend meetings outside of her working hours is not acceptable and her failure to attend on her days off cannot be used against her.

Your wife must insist on everything in writing or email - and any emails she must immediately forward to her personal email at home so she has a record of them. any verbal instructions she must immediately ask for clarity by email. So verbal instruction to attend a meeting on her day off she must follow up with and email along the lines of "Can I confirm the meeting is on Monday and this is my day off". - again this is to ensure a clear trail.

I think you are right - she is being managed out. However the manager is teetering on the edge of sex discrimination.

This is a complex area - you need real professional advice - mine would be to join a union immediately and hope they will represent her in future dealings. ( unions do not act retrospectively ie you cannot join one once disciplinary is started and hope they represent tho some) will.

document everything including writing her concerns in e-mails to said manager or just ask for clarification about why these important meetings cannot be scheduled when she is in work- she wont have a good or legal reason for that

The regional manager can try and manage them out but they cannot do anything legal to them as the hours have been agreed and clearly there is no economic reason why the business cannot accommodate this as they have for a period of time with satisfactory performance

also use the " I am willing to make adjustments to my hours / days of work to meet the needs of the business when its a pressing need, however I cannot get child cover at short notice"

Custom and practice / implicit change to terms and conditions could be argued even after a few months. If she has been dong these hours for years then its a part of her contract now.

Since we have had children her hours were changed, with agreement from her regional manager.

I assume her contract was never updated to reflect the new hours? If it was then contacting HR about what's happening should make this pretty much disappear

I appreciate the advice. I'll let you know of any updates!

It's not enough theses days for employers to expect you to carry out a job for them, they want to own you outside work too. They want you to be at their beckoning call 24 hours a day!

Legend - irrelevant. If she has been doing those hours for a while then the manager would have to show a pressing business need to change them and that this business need was a new circumstance because the family friendly hours had been OK for a period of time.

Contacting you outside of work time is never acceptable - if its outside your contracted hours then you can safely ignore it.

All companies have a duty to accept reasonable adjustments for family friendly working

not true, they are obliged to consider the request but they don't have to allow it.

for more info read here

https://www.workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/the-law-when-an-employer-asks-you-to-change-your-hours/

also use the " I am willing to make adjustments to my hours / days of work to meet the needs of the business when its a pressing need, however I cannot get child cover at short notice"

Why would you you have a contract you will work it end of discussion

to suggest you are flexible/open to change gives them an incentive to change and make weekly changes to your hours as "they gave you enough notice"

meetings are arranged to coincide with her days off or when she is supposed to be picking the kids up from school.

You know what I do when someone arranges a meeting outside my working hours? I generally don't go. If I think it is important and it is convenient for me, then I might jiggle things around but my starting point is usually that I'm not available.

That the current arrangements aren't standard is neither here nor there - intruding on days off is breach of contract (by custom and practice, if not written) and possibly breach of the working time directive depending on how many rest days you are left with. If the manager is doing this simply to be difficult, the business is in trouble. If this is proper "needs of the business" stuff (i.e. not calling it that to excuse being a douche) then a grown up discussion is needed. The manager should instigate this.

Talk to HR. Then, if necessary, talk to ACAS.

Just being devil's advocate...what if previous regional manager had been too accommodating etc, work requirements have changed over the years and previous boss was just avoiding an awkward discussion for what ever reason (why did they leave?). New boss comes in and is told to sort things out and thinks this should not be happening as things are not how they were a few years ago, does not know your wife the same as the old boss, wants to make a mark or sees an opportunity etc. Being new they may even have someone in mind to replace your wife so is making her life hell hoping she leaves. Are the meetings one one one or team meetings that can't be changed to suit everyone?
All in all not a nice situation for your wife, hope it gets sorted. I am a firm believer in having my day off as just that (no calls etc), but also realise in my job I do need to be a bit flexible and change days off etc if something comes up. It can be tough.

Bloody hell TJ you're on form in this thread.
Having it on paper means it's far more simple, there is no arguement, it's done. If she doesn't have it on paper then your stuff comes into play

in what way is this sorting it out?

Grown up say

I know you had this before but unfortunately the business environment h and our needs have changed and we need to look at your hours and see what we can work out

they dont do shit like this as that is not managing a situation its mismanaging or creating one

all loverly cuddly answers from folks who ve never worked for a large modern retailer. Op your right the rm doesnt like your wifes working arrangements and that attitude is hoing to change or even get better.
firstly recognise that they dont see your wife as a part time manager. shes a manager full stop just working less hours than others in her position. the hours the rm expects her to be managing are all day every day
i d guess that your wife does not have a ying to her yang to make the post 'full time equilvalant' so the wifes choices.. suck it up and say nowt.. suck it up and change hours days as directed when directed.. suck it up but give the rm her schedule 14 days in advance every friday pm... work somewhere else.
her contract will like most in the industry say something along the lines of work any reasonable hours at any location to meet the needs of the business''

been there seen it done it from both sides of the table.

TJ almost has it but.

Be careful forwarding emails to your home as this can go against you, print them and store them locked away at work.

All companies have a duty to accept reasonable adjustments for family friendly working

A duty to consider but it has to be reasonable for both parties.

totalshell - Member

all lovely cuddly answers from folks who've never worked for a large modern retailer.

I do and the work place is irrelevant

A duty to consider but it has to be reasonable for both parties.

no it doesn't - you are contracted to work certain hours and if you can't do it then the company has every right to find someone that can (if they want to be ****s obviously)

no it doesn't - you are contracted to work certain hours and if you can't do it then the company has every right to find someone that can (if they want to be **** obviously)

Yes that's what reasonable for both parties means. They can say yes or no.

Employers can reject an application for any of the following reasons:

extra costs that will damage the business
the work can’t be reorganised among other staff
people can’t be recruited to do the work
flexible working will affect quality and performance
the business won’t be able to meet customer demand
there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
the business is planning changes to the workforce

Exactly Junkyard.

Totalshell - just because some employers are bastards ad some employees doormats does not mean you have to give up your legal entitlement to work to your contract. this womans contract ( assuming its been more than a few weeks) now includes these family friendly hours whether written down or not. So you really think employuees should be at the beckand call of employers outside of their contract? Its you that needs to get real

Junkyard - thats the advice from my missus who deals with this sort of dispute for a living - yo are not promising anything but showing you are being reasonable thus showing the employer to be unreasonable.

If the business has accommodated an arrangement for a extended length of time, then they would find it difficult change the agreed working hours now. You may have an issue if there is nothing formally agreed though, for example I drop the kids off at school on a Friday morning, I have nothing agreed in writing, it's a loose agreement with my boss and I accept that if I'm needed somewhere early on a Friday, then I'll need to arrange for someone else to take the boys to school. I couldn't and wouldn't be able to demand that from my next boss, however I'm hugely confident that the arrangement won't be an issue.

The OP's wife has a very strong case that these are her agreed hours, they can ask her to attend a meeting in her time off or by starting earlier but can't force this.

But claiming "All companies have a duty to accept reasonable adjustments for family friendly working." is wrong. They can consider proposals, offer options but they are not obliged to accept them if they can't be achieved.

Junkyard - lazarus
Employers can reject an application for any of the following reasons:

The employer here has already accepted changes to the work pattern. That they have a right to reject such changes doesn't help them now. There is a right to reject flexible working, there is not a right to unilaterally reverse changes that were previously accepted.

Slightly different question...why is the wife the one that is doing all the drop offs and collections? If the existing agreement isn't working, can the op get his hours tweaked to take a share and allow his wife to flex some more to accommodate the change in hours?

The employer here has already accepted changes to the work pattern. That they have a right to reject such changes doesn't help them now. There is a right to reject flexible working, there is not a right to unilaterally reverse changes that were previously accepted.

Junkyard was replying to the claim that employers have to accept family friendly applications.

Slightly different question...why is the wife the one that is doing all the drop offs and collections? If the existing agreement isn't working, can the op get his hours tweaked to take a share and allow his wife to flex some more to accommodate the change in hours?

Because if you think it's hard for women to get family friendly arrangements agreed at work, men's experience is typically a whole order of magnitude harder.

Society as a whole just doesn't regard a man's role as a father as valuable and important enough and in the process not only do we discriminate and marginalise men (in terms of their importance in families), we continue to reinforce the marginalisation of women in the work place.

It's a topic that was discussed on Women's Hour recently and several other places on the BBC.

I'm aware of how lucky I am as my work has allowed me very flexible working around parenting (less hours one week, more the other).
Agreed it isn't as 'easy' as it is for females, but the way it is worded suggests the op is purely relying on his wife to do the parenting - suspect it isn't like that - so I asked if he could do anything to help...

I've recently had my hours made flexible to cover child care issues.
There's info on the ACAS website.
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1616#maindiv
I held an informal meeting with all of my co workers & manager explaining my requirements. There weren't any objections and it was agreed that the "business" wouldn't be affected..lucky me ,as it really is only the right to [u]request[/u] flexible working!
Best of luck .

At our work they have flexible working and core hours. For the most part we can ignore the core hours bit if you are on good terms with your manager but this is supposed to be agreed upon and recorded by your manger with hr.

For instance our core hours are 8-4 but I get in early and leave at 3 but if any meeting arises after this I have to stay as nothing is written down about my hours. It generally works out alright and lots of people who have kids do similar things. However if something comes up and people need to pick up kids and can't make a meeting we do postpone them to later (latest was 7pm) and people phoned in. It's not the most fun but you give a little and get a little.

OP is everyone in your wife's team happy with the arrangement or could someone have complained to the old/new manager?

If these adjustments have worked fine in the past then they are reasonable without dispute therefore changing them is not possible.

This is a bit like the other thread about dismissing people who are ill. Its simply not true. Changes can be made to informal agreements (as this one sounds) or formal ones. They simply have to be done correctly but they can be changed

What drac said re what I ws saying

does not read to me like its an informal agreement* of the manger would have said so and ignored the informal arrangment

Of course hours can be changed and of course constructive dismissal claims can be made but it is some way from this and wont get there for a number of reasons.

In this case the company would need to explain why changing this managers hours was essential for the business to survive. Given they dont do these hours and the business still functions/survives/profits/works that is going to be rather difficult for them

they[employer] could impose changes but that would also be rather risky of them and is covered by other laws we are not discussing here

*Since we have had children her hours were changed, with agreement from her regional manager. This allows her to drop the kids at school/child minder and pick them up. Her days off are regular to fit in with this as well.

Surfer - again not quite. Arrangements like this can only be changed with a good business reason and that would have to be a significant change in the business that could not be dealt with any other way. Yes changes can be made by going thru the correct channels but something like this its very hard to do so and certainly not on the whim of a middle manager

Arrangements like this can only be changed with a good business reason and that would have to be a significant change in the business that could not be dealt with any other way

Well I dont know your background but I have experience of dealing with changes such as this over many years and quite recently refused requests for reduced working hours by 2 members of my team (non related requests) Of course I had to give the consideration (which I really did) however in the majority of organisations it is difficult to absorb team members working reduced hours. As much as they have a right to request, and I have an obligation to consider that request, it is very easy for me to justify my decision.
Reversing those decisions is more difficult but with a thorough understanding of regulations (and your own companies policies) is not overly onerous.

My background. Ex union branch convener, my other half is a expert in employment / welfare rights law. I have also been a senior manager

Refusing is easy. Reversing is difficult and in a case like this from what we know almost impossible. The company would have to show that there has been a significant change in the companies business that the only way out is to change the OPs wifes contract - for by now those new hours are an accepted part of her contract whether written or not.

Between us we have fought and won countless cases on employment rights.

But claiming "All companies have a duty to accept reasonable adjustments for family friendly working." is wrong. They can consider proposals, offer options but they are not obliged to accept them if they can't be achieved.

If every company that employed parents of children had to enforce flexible working, they just wouldnt employ parents who couldnt work to suit the work of the buissness, eg bus drivers coming in late on weekdays and leaving early, the 2 busiest times for bus drivers, other jobs are also the same.

Managed staff requesting them and involved as union rep- I would not call myself an expert in this area but i am not uninformed.

Many were turned down but never had one reversed

I am not saying it cannot happen but here they would have to show a reason and that will be quite hard given it has worked for a period of time.

Reversing those decisions is more difficult but with a thorough understanding of regulations (and your own companies policies) is not overly onerous.

Few businesses have static demands and most are in environments that are fluid. Businesses dont have to show "significant" changes they just have to demonstrate why hours/working practices are now "unworkable" this happens regularly and only occasioanlly are they challenged seriously and it is really only strongly unionised companies that force companies to backtrack and that is often only temporary.
Department managers can quite easily evidence increased workloads (and can even create them) to prove that older contracts need to be changed.

there may also be a bid to engineer your wife out of the comapny to save money or recruit someone more flexible

Surfer. all of those things you outline if an employee refused and was then dismissed would be unfair dismissal and a case I'd love to take on.

Sure you can bully workers into doing things they don't have to do if they haven't got the resources to fight. This is why unions are important.

Sure if the can demonstrate that the arrangements are now unworkable because of significant - and it has to be so - changes to the employers situation then changes can be made but making up stuff as you suggest just gets employers into a lot of trouble. Given how crap every HR dept I have ever dealt with are and how little knowledge mangers have of employment law any half decent union rep would stop them right in their tracks. Been there got the t shirt.

Project - my guess is thats what is happening

Department managers can quite easily evidence increased workloads (and can even create them) to prove that older contracts need to be changed.

Of course they could but would be classed as bullying or constructive dismissal. This was recently tried with a relative their manager tried that utter nonsense you've just proposed. I was asked for advice from the relative, they took it spoke to a senior manager and HR. The other manager in question now has a new job elsewhere on a lower pay. My relative has kept her flexible working.

tjagain - Member
Project - my guess is thats what is happening

Bloody HELL we agree on something, sadly a lot of companies are using the same tactics or using modern slavery techniques eg forcing staff to work long hours for the benefit of the company,and to protect their jobs, (their words), to save recruiting new staff to help out.

significant - and it has to be so - changes to the employers situation then changes can be made but making up stuff as you suggest just gets employers into a lot of trouble

These arent "made up" and I could evidence why in almost every department of my organisation we have more work than we can currently handle, almost every organisation can do the same. You may have a "slide rule" interpretation where work=hours but I for one could work 18 hours a day and still leave work to do, Many of us do. I can easily make a case for reversing a decision to allow a team member to go from 5 days a week to 4 and when these changes are agreed it is not because the employee by some incredible coincidence has only enough work to fill 4 days! it is because other people pick up the slack or I decide certain parts of that role can be moved/removed.
I suspect given your profession your interpretation is skewed in the same way as mine is skewed because changes like this are not rare.

Of course they could but would be classed as bullying or constructive dismissal

No it wouldnt. I used the word "evidence"

Just to be clear I would only ever try to change a contract or one of my teams working arrangements if their was a genuine reason to do so. People arrange their lives around working hours and I would always be as supportive as I could with my teams so I would never change these to be vindictive. I am just making the point that these things are not written in stone as some on this thread would indicate.

Hold on you forgot the important bit.

increased workloads [b](and can even create them)[/b] to prove that older contracts need to be changed.

increased workloads (and can even create them) to prove that older contracts need to be changed

Your looking for something that isnt there Drac. I meant legitimately "create" them by taking on extra contracts, approving projects, moving workloads etc. You seem to think that I am justifying under handed working practices. I am not.

It read that way.

Either way your trying to force a change of contact you can't just go ahead and do that, it's possible but far from easy for an employer to do. Increasing workload, especially creating them, won't win it as their would be other options before making changes to someone's contract.

force a change of contact you can't just go ahead and do that

Or

it's possible but far from easy for an employer to do

Which is it?

their would be other options before making changes to someone's contract.

Nope, depends on skill set and if theirs was easily replaceable.

Which is it?

What do you mean? I take it you don't negotiate with your staff that you just tell them your changing their hours.

Nope, depends on skill set and if theirs was easily replaceable.

Skill set or not you have to look at other options, you can't just go ahead and change someone's contract because your business can't deal with the workload.

But claiming "All companies have a duty to accept reasonable adjustments for family friendly working." is wrong. They can consider proposals, offer options but they are not obliged to accept them if they can't be achieved.

Sure. But if we're going to massively clamp down on immigration, we are going to have to start giving professional British born women a good reason to have kids again - as it is now, birth rates will probably drop down to 1.2/1.3 and we'll end up like Japan - ****ed economically.

UK businesses think too much in the short term, instead of how their businesses and workers will cope with a rapidly ageing population.

surfer - creating extra workload would not be a suitable reason - really easy to counter that one. Simple no brainer win at tribunal.

Sure. But if we're going to massively clamp down on immigration, we are going to have to start giving professional British born women a good reason to have kids again - as it is now, birth rates will probably drop down to 1.2/1.3 and we'll end up like Japan - **** economically.

😯

I take it you don't negotiate with your staff that you just tell them your changing their hours.

Of course and whether I wanted to or not (and I did make that clear earlier) Policy and law dictates I do. Straw man.
Firstly you said that it cant be done, then you said it could. Which is what I had stated.

Firstly you said that it cant be done, then you said it could. Which is what I had stated.

Your tone was suggestive that employees has no choice to change that's what I and TJ were challenging as they dont. Hence why you can ask for it be done but if an employee says no you then you're stuck, even when you create them more work.