How can we make the UK PLC great again like in the days of the victorians were we where seen as leaders in engineering, we discovered so many new things, we built fantastic buildings and railways, we built trains and locomotives, we had good employment, we helped each other.
Seems as if now most are struggling to survive, aggression and fear of assault are stopping old people going out,people cant afford to spend, theft is on the increase,politicians dont seem to care,as they live on a parralel world.
So what would/could you do to improve the plight of UK PLC.
Immediately sack every single career politician and return their pension funds to the state.
[s]Occupy[/s] Nationalise Everything!!!
[i]we helped each other.[/i]
Please remove rose-tinted specs...
At the same time we were aggressively colonising other parts of the world and people loved in unspeakable conditions in slums.
Yay! Let's go backwards!
No one got anywhere thinking of just themselves.
Remove the right wing press bias - crime is a lot lot lower than 20 years ago. However the press stir up a fear of crime to promote their own agenda
As regards manufacturing - its a fault with our system of investment. we still can do it - Triumph motorcycles - from scratch to a world player in 20 years - but financed purely as a private investment no shareholders and no floatation. One man made it happen. took ten years before he started getting his money back
Short termism applies to politics as well
Too much short termism and too much profiteering
No one got anywhere thinking of just themselves.
politicians seems to make a living out of it.
people loved in unspeakable conditions in slums.
and will be soon in london town as they fail to get HB.
Let's be a lot better than the Victorians were. Let's reduce the gap between rich and poor, like the more civilised nations on earth, let's all accept a little bit less, let's look after our world and all its people, and let's stop the vile ideologies that money is the reason we exist and that everything else should be subservient to "profit"...
Sack 50% of public servants.
1. Ask exactly this question instead of blaming bankers/politicians/unions/immigrants/fat cats etc - it starts us thinking positively about a solution
2. Accept the economics and politics of the world have changed, less in our favour and work out how to survive in the new world order
3. Focus on what we're good at: creativity, advertising, finance, inventiveness, international trade etc and invest in them
4. Get rid of our sense of entitlement and work hard for our future prosperity
5. Make more of an effort to get on and be respectful of others' needs and opinions
6. Give over expecting someone else to give us the solution on a plate and just get on with it ourselves...
Which ones, Flashheart, the ones that teach our kids or the ones that heal our sick, maybe?
instead of blaming bankers/politicians/unions/immigrants/fat cats
Never seen a problem yet that can be solved without working out what went wrong in the first place...two of those five if you ask me...
3. Focus on what we're good at: creativity, advertising, finance, inventiveness, international trade etc and invest in them
so thats why we had to bail out the bankers and banks,.
we need to invest in industry,and education for rela worthwhile jobs that create wealth and skills.
No one got anywhere thinking of just themselves.
+1
How can we make the [u]UK[/u] PLC great again
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Well, its a start 😀
How to make UK PLC great again
Not possible. We are now in terminal decline. It's just our post-Empire time for being that...
Makes the "Diamond Jubilee" celebrations and Olympic trumpeting more than just a little ridiculous.
It'll get a lot worse befoer it gets better - but we'll find our level. Somewhere alongside Belgium, I should think...
mmm waffles!
wouldn't be the UK anymore then would it Zulu
wouldn't be the UK anymore then would it Zulu
😆
TandemJeremy - Member
wouldn't be the UK anymore then would it....
No, It'd be the OK 😆
Yeah, we'd just be the United Kingdom of England, Wales & NI 🙂
Thks Tim - that's up there with 'build more bridges' as a response to economic hardship.CaptainFlashheart - MemberSack 50% of public servants.
Short-termism seem to be a crippling problem in our current phase of capitalism. There's no (perceived) share-holder value in fundamental research, according to an industry talk I heard last week - no company anywhere now funds this. Plenty fund R+D of course, but in-house, curiosity-driven research of the Dupont / Bell labs / Shell type is now dead n buried. Scientific enquiry does not respond or fit to a free-market model, so the emphasis on short-term thinking seems really problematic, on the level of UK plc and just at the general level of being unable to control research in a predictive way.
Short-term thinking also seems to have hamstrung government, although our political system is centuries old. It's hard to imagine any incumbent government really trying to lay down fundamental policy for the next 20 years. Why bother, right, when you could be in opposition in 5 years time? The relative lack of quality in Parliament, and exponentially increased scrutiny that government / MPs are now under, though, has made this a much bigger problem than in yesteryear.
Have a strategic plan where a few industries that we are good at are supported by and invested in by the government rather than blind faith in pure free markets, which never actually exist anyway.
although our political system is centuries old
Political models just and economic models or any model are only valid during certain sets of conditions. When these conditions change we have to adjust our models. We have not done that hence why politics is so stale and does not progress. As a nation we cling to the it's work before so even though every thing has changed in the world we should stick to the same model.
although our political system is centuries old
Political models just and economic models or any model are only valid during certain sets of conditions. When these conditions change we have to adjust our models. We have not done that hence why politics is so stale and does not progress. As a nation we cling to the it's work before so even though every thing has changed in the world we should stick to the same model.
I think Dragon's Den clearly shows that we don't lack people with imagination and drive. We need to foster and support this attitude but also instill the need to avoid complaicency, which IMHO caused the death of our "industrial might" more than any other factor.
great again like in the days of the victorians
Well they weren't great for people like me - so no thanks.
That's true TheBrick - my initial reation though is that it's the calibre of person in parliament that's the bottom line problem, rather than any particular system. In that we get the government we deserve, regardless of how it is set up. It's a bit chicken and egg, though, as clearly a radically different system should attract a different set of people.
How to make UK PLC great again
Stop voting, regardless of your politics
We do not have the politicians we deserve
By continuing to vote we are retaining them
We do not have the politicians we deserve
Conversely, we probably have exactly the politicians we deserve - we're lucky if 30% of us even bother to get off our fat a*ses and vote.
Opine less, do more.
Stop voting, regardless of your politics
We do not have the politicians we deserve
By continuing to vote we are retaining them
I am going to go out on a limb here but I think voting for the politicians you want is a more effective strategy for getting the elected representatives that you want
HTH
Opine less, do more
Brilliant!
That's the forum equivalent of "Why Don't You" telling us to turn the telly off and go and do something less boring instead!
"Why Don't You" telling us to turn the telly off
Perhaps we should have listened way back then, then. 😛
Not often we agree, but...
Too much short termism and too much profiteering
This is the root cause of [s]so many[/s] most problems.
Hmmm, difficult one. Can politicians be taught the meaning of morality? And honesty? This could equally apply to CEOs.
Sort out the education system by increasing the number of subjects taught whilst getting rid of the gimmicky ones. Teach practical skills and encourage creativeness.
Cancel the Jubilee and Olympics.
That's just for starters!
We need to recognise that manufacturing is the foundation that other commerce can be built on
massive tax breaks need to be implemented for manufacturers with subsidies to help exports
[quote=cheekyboy said]How to make UK PLC great again
Stop voting, regardless of your politics
We do not have the politicians we deserve
By continuing to vote we are retaining them
So what are you going to do about it ?
So what are you going to do about it ?
New here, aren't you?
So what are you going to do about it ?
Stop voting I believe is the suggestion.
Which presumably mean that the candidates will vote for themselves (if they are registered in the polling area) resulting in a three, four, or whatever, way draw, which the Returning Officer will settle through the toss of a coin.
Stop thinking of the country as a PLC! It's a bit more complicated and nuanced than that.
So what are you going to do about it ?Stop voting I believe is the suggestion.
and wait for a good man on a white horse to come trotting over the hill...
I dont know of a politician that deserves my vote, simple as !
I dont know of a politician that deserves my vote, simple as !
So, to repeat allthepies' good question, what are you going to do about it..?
I dont know of a politician that deserves my vote
Well let someone else decide then.
I dont know of a politician that deserves my voteWell let someone else decide then.
Or better still, turn up and spoil your ballot paper. Staying at home just makes them think you're one of the embarrassingly vast minority that thinks the X-Factor is more important than the government of their country.
Or better still, turn up and spoil your ballot paper.
Or even better, if you think you can do a better job..... Aargh! Forget it, someone else can do it. 😐
Accept the economics and politics of the world have changed, less in our favour and work out how to survive in the new world order
Then turn it to our favour then. Why do people just accept what has been set out for them by others?
Aargh! Forget it, someone else can do it
That's exactly what cheekyboy thinks!
I'd start by banning all that shite on TV for a start.
You're not going to get rich quick by being a great singer or a model or by winning the lottery, you'll get rich by working hard and making something of yourself. Build a business, rely on yourself, help your staff, grow, make stuff.
It's actually insanely easy to rebuild the economy, trouble is, there's too many people who think they're smart, but are stupid, in charge.
spoil your ballot paper
A weekend at Camber Sands ?
We need to recognise that manufacturing is the foundation that other commerce can be built on
I'd put innovation ahead of manufacturing. Unless it's a technically complex product someone else will be able to manufacture it more cheaply, but if you're good at designing and innovating you'll have the lead (and the option to choose where you want it to be manufactured). We should also be less negative about everything.
Face it, we're good at innovation but we tend to miss the opportunity of making good of our innovations. What we are historically good at, is getting drunk, building boats, setting sail to conquer stuff and pillage everything on the way..... so we should stop being in denial about it and start to look further afield to do it. 😛
We've just invented a new engine that could be the future of spacecraft.
So I say we monopolize the invention and do what we do best, colonise shit and do a one way mission to mars. We should clone some humans, brain wash them into rabidly patriotic british citizens (so they don't go all American on us) and send them to colonise and start terraforming mars for queen and country. Give them a few nukes that could target orbiting space craft (Russian, Chinese, American...whatever) and keep the ability to turn them off at our discretion and we're sorted.
Then once there is a base with say a space elevator to reduce return costs.....and once the worlds minerals have run out we could sell the stuff we mine on mars back to everyone at hugely inflated prices.
We do well when we invent something new and aggressively capitalize on it.
My family and I visited the ss Great Britain today, In Bristol. If you think about it in historical context, it's totally bonkers technology - we'd call it "innovation" these days. It turned out to be the great great great ancestor of all modern ships, and is therefore most important ship of the modern age.
I have no idea how IK Brunel persuaded people to bankroll his "great experiment". But I felt immense patriotic pride at his achievement. Important as it is, this was just a fraction of his great body of work.
We need to acknowledge and be proud of our technical prowess. To inspire more IK Brunel's.
How can we make the UK PLC great again like in the days of the victorians?
Victorian period was great if you were Henry St. John Smothington-Smythe of the 2nd Cavalry with colonial campaigns interspersed with the occasional season at your pile in Hampshire. It was a bit less spectacular if you were John Porter, the porter from Portsmouth, toothless and with a gangrenous foot.
zimbo - Member
Aargh! Forget it, someone else can do it
That's exactly what cheekyboy thinks!
Posted 7 hours ago #
Hey, someone can tell what I am thinking via the medium of a forum ....
My point is very simple, extremely idealistic and would never happen but its a point and its mine.
Our political class have failed us..............hence the reason we are having this discussion.
A vote for a politician is like a biscuit for a badly behaved dog, they will never be our servants as long as we continuously grant them licence to continue every 5 years, a huge non vote would press home our dissatisfaction and lets face it we have vry few politicians we can say we are proud of at the moment.
What am I going to do about it ?
Well I am not a politician nor do I want to be, but I have a perfectly legitimate right to criticise the ones we have.
The banking system needs completely restructuring! It now forms a parasitic entity which preys on the 'real' economy, to the total detriment of our wider society.
Look at the utter insanity of the Cadbury's buyout. RBS, a bank owned by you, the taxpayer, provides the finance for a leveraged buyout by Kraft, an American multinational.
The first thing they do, despite assurances, is close down British production and move it to Poland. So.... We've all effectively subsidised the loss of a load of British jobs, and will now shoulder the subsequent welfare bill.
But hey ho! a few City financiers made an absolute fortune in consultancy fees! I wonder how much tax they paid on their deal? My money is on 'next to nothing' or in fact 'nothing'.
I'm sure they've had their cheque books out for kitchen suppers with Dave though
This kind of madness has to stop!!!
Kick Danny Dyer, Dave Courtney and every other bell end who comes on the telly going "Int being a hard nut brilliant!" down a disused pit.
Replace all bouncers with bobbies from the armed response unit + a few of the sniffer dog / land shark bunch. Pay them £60k a year and move them between cities so they're unlikely to be bribed.
In fact, any corruption in public office and you're out on your arse. Stripped of your pension, the works. And while we're at it, pay politicians more but stop buying them free houses. Buy a load of property in London and put the MPs up in govt houses.
Then bang up the few hundred people in each city who are responsible for the vast majority of crime. Pareto innit. Keep them in until they're 40 and they've grown out of it. If they re-offend, back in for life.
Stop messing about with student visas. Higher education is one export we're absolutely world class at, and if they stick around then we've not only had years of £20k fees, but also a highly educated person who can make some money.
After that's done, we could get a few eminent economists to come on the telly and explain that the economy isn't a zero sum game, and that forcing old folks to retire will actual reduce the total productivity of the economy rather than making a job for an unemployed 18 year old.
Binners i wouldn't be so quick to attack Kraft, Cadbury's was already closing Somerdale and shifting production to Poland. Yes kraft did say they would try and reverse the closure so not guilt free, but it was Cadbury that made the decision.
cheekyboy
a huge non vote would press home our dissatisfaction
We have a huge non-vote every election - somewhere between 50 and 80% generally can't be a*sed. Since when has that made anyone in power sit up and think?
That specious "let's all not vote" theory is the laziest, most unproductive argument. Like I say, turn up and spoil your ballot paper - those at least get counted, and if we had 30 million of them...
And I think I can tell what you think from your comments, as I'm pretty sure you can tell what I think from mine.
How can we make the UK PLC great again like in the days of the victorians were we where seen as leaders in engineering,
Lol.
How about we undo 100 years of development in the rest of the world? And then start taking advantage of them by conquering it all? That should do it.
The world is a completely different place now.
I thought maybe things were getting better until Gordon and the bankers cocked things up. Would be good to work out how to deal with public sector pensions (over 1/4 of all council tax goes on them) and the vast amount we spend on the unemployed. They need jobs but what jobs? Coal mining and unskilled manufacturing? They're done where the wages are least and not sure people have the appetite for them here these days. Years ago poor people would move to the jobs wherever they were in order to survive but that would be wrong now, as a society we're happy to pay for them.
I'll probably move to France one day, not much different to here but at least they like cyclists. 😉
Read a history book....it never was great...it was always fudge and cockups and half hearted bollocks
konabunny's right
Victorian period was great if you were Henry St. John Smothington-Smythe of the 2nd Cavalry with colonial campaigns interspersed with the occasional season at your pile in Hampshire. It was a bit less spectacular if you were John Porter, the porter from Portsmouth, toothless and with a gangrenous foot
but extrapolate that to the present age. Nothing's changed. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the rich have us blaming the chav, the doley, the immigrant when in fact they are the symptoms, not the cause.
We should alleviate the uber-wealthy of their ill-gotten gains, and more importantly, their ill-gotten power, and redistribute it amongst the world's (and Britain's) poor and rebuild a land where fairness and not richness is the common man's dream. The Victorians' grandeur was built on the back of poverty and exploitation here and abroad - let's not idolise that.
redistribute it amongst the world's (and Britain's) poor
Yeah why not? They did that in China and Russia.
redistribute it amongst the world's (and Britain's) poorYeah why not? They did that in China and Russia
No they didn't. They ostensibly adopted a system which should have done that but was badly mismanaged and failed completely. Where they do do it more successfully is in the northern European countries, where the gulf between rich and poor is lowest.
cheekyboy
a huge non vote would press home our dissatisfaction
We have a huge non-vote every election - somewhere between 50 and 80% generally can't be a*sed. Since when has that made anyone in power sit up and think?
That specious "let's all not vote" theory is the laziest, most unproductive argument. Like I say, turn up and spoil your ballot paper - those at least get counted, and if we had 30 million of them...
And I think I can tell what you think from your comments, as I'm pretty sure you can tell what I think from mine.
Don`t see any real reason for your aggression in response,
We have a huge non-vote every election - somewhere between 50 and 80% generally can't be a*sed.
Good lets hope the figure gets bigger........ to blame the voter for voter apathy is simply wrong, its on a par with blaming the consumer for not buying.
ps....... "like your use of the word specious" hope your Sunday is as pleasant as mine, cheers.
No they didn't.
Well Mao took the land from the rich - he also killed them but we wouldn't do that. Right?
Edit - the land was put into the ownership of local communities.
Of course they didn't redistribute the wealth in China and Russia after the revolution they just concentrated it in the new ruling classes. The current reliance in the economy of the populace buying foreign made goods providing enormous profits for Philip Green has to stop, we need to begin to produce things in this country (accepting the last year we exported more things than ever before) but paying people to be unemployed when it would be cheaper - financially and socially to have them working for a living wage making stuff, creating local economies, keeping money local and not exporting it to Monaco to pay for ridiculous 60th birthday parties.
I heard recently that the model for the last 10 years of outsourcing to China and closing UK manufacturing is failing as quality is patchy, costs have gone up significantly and delivery lead times are too long.
Personally, I choose British produced product first, followed by European, with chinese near the end of the list.
voter for voter apathy is simply wrong
The only people who will ever be blamed for voter apathy are the voters; no-one in power will ever read that as dissent, because it suits them not to.
No aggression intended, honestly! I'm just not very diplomatic in my tone, which is why I'll never be a politician! It's all just debate, and I apologise if it sounds personal. Enjoy your day...
Perhaps our loss, is other peoples gain?
Seems to me that people in China have seen an enormous leap in their living standards over the past 20 years of 'state controlled capitalism'
Same throughout most of asia - living standards (and life expectancies, child mortality rates, all the other key indicators of improved lifestyle - have been going up.
hundreds of millions of people raised out of poverty, thanks to the evils of capitalism and the free market.
are there still inequities and deprivations? of course there are, and terrible ones at that but lets not pretend to ourselves that our petty first world failure of capitalism, that means I can't afford a new iphone pales into insignificance compared with the benefits that the system has already brought to billions round the world.
They ostensibly adopted a system which should have done that but was badly mismanaged and failed completely
Spectacularly failed. They took a backward pre-industrial agrarian economy with a completely uneducated workforce and turned into an industrial and military superpower, which within 35 years was able to, in the words of Winston Churchill, [i]"tear the guts out of the Nazi war machine",[/i] and which within a further 20 years was 10 years in advance of US space technology, placing satellites and human into orbit, all whilst finding time to create the world's first national health service which led the world in many areas. Yep, badly mismanaged and failed completely. Makes you wonder why the West was so scared.
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Of course they didn't redistribute the wealth in China and Russia after the revolution they just concentrated it in the new ruling classes.
Factually incorrect. There might have been concentration of power, but not of wealth. Certainly nowhere approaching the levels which existed in the West or exist today in Russia. Lifting the ceiling on maximum earnings was one of Gorbachev's must vaunted perestroika reforms (although despite the myth Gorbachev was not the originator of perestroika)
a return to victorian britain?; workhouses, no votes for women, infant mortality at 50%, etc
I think we can do much better than that
sadly our political class seems devoid of morality
the failure to hold themselves to account after the expenses scandal (a handful token prosecutions aside) and the constant drip of sleaze coming from no.10 (Ive just watched cameron lie his arse off on andrew marr)
It all shows that the current system needs reform
benefit fraud and dishonesty runs from the top to the bottom in our society, the fix needs to start at the top before the bottom can tackled.
Investing in education, science & technology is the way to protect our future, sadly our view is too biased towards capitalism , banking and financial services as the only way.
Surely the answer is to change the name, if UKPlc isn't performing well, just rebrand. Simples.
politicians are by there nature power seekers, they will read everything in the way that suits them. IF you do not vote they will not read it as a vote against, but rather choose to blame it on the voter for not engaging.
They can not understand that a system where you have the choice of 3 identical parties might not be the best way forward.
Mind you, voters can not be trusted to vote in their own long term interest. The solution?????
politicians are by there nature power seekers, they will read everything in the way that suits them.
By their nature ? That really is complete nonsense.
Still, it's very trendy and fashionable to come out with crap like that........so carry on.
mudshark - MemberI thought maybe things were getting better until Gordon and the bankers cocked things up. Would be good to work out how to deal with public sector pensions (over 1/4 of all council tax goes on them)
Pish
Yep, badly mismanaged and failed completely. Makes you wonder why the West was so scared
I don't decry the Soviet Union's achievements, but they've returned to capitalism. Che Guevara warned that would happen - they based their system on wholly capitalist incentives.
I think we need need a new conscience, not just a new economic and political system. A new moral definition of success, instead of a financial one, is what may save us.
Set up a company yourself and create some jobs for others and wealth for yourself and taxes for the hospitals, schools you think society should have etc
Or set up charity to deliver some of the social good you want to see (or volunteer and start making the contribution you want to)
Debating the whole affair on STW on a wet Sunday won't get you too far!
extrapolate that to the present age. Nothing's changed. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the rich have us blaming the chav, the doley, the immigrant when in fact they are the symptoms, not the cause.
I don't decry the Soviet Union's achievements
It's a remarkable position to argue that nothing has changed in the UK since Victorian times but that meritorious achievements were made in the Soviet Union.
