People I follow on Strava seem to be able to roll along at 18mph avg speeds over 50+mile rides. There HR data shows that they are zone 2-3 all the way, so not trying too hard.
I, on the other hand would have to go zone 5 to avg that and can only hold it for an hour as a result. I ride much, much more than they do, so how do they go so fast?
Obvious answers are they are fitter, and are more aero on their bikes. But I know these riders and don't believe this is the case.
Is there something slowing me down? Tyres maybe? What sort of watts would a fit rider expect to put out on a flattish route to avg those speeds?
Are they in a group?
Are they riding in a group? That makes a big difference to average speeds and effort to hold those speeds.
Are you trying to ride every ride at max effort? If so then you're overdoing things, basically overtraining, so need to ride some zone 2 rides until you've recovered.
Err, you can't hold zone 5 for an hour - by definition it's above your FTP which is the maximum effort you can hold for an hour.
Get fitter, basically. That's all there is to it. Though if they're in a group that'll definitely help their numbers.
Also, don't assume all fast cyclists look like fast cyclists. There's a guy in my area who is a big fella but rides mega-miles and is fast on everything bar the steep hills.
Yeah you need to do longer lower intensity rides, by riding fast for shorter periods you're training to ride fast for shorter periods. Longer slower rides will help increase your endurance and eventually allow you to ride faster for longer.
We are all doing solo rides. So its not a group thing.
I have done lots of low intensity big miles for six months now.
I am reasonably fit, but not mega fit. It just feels like I should be travelling faster for the perceived effort I am putting in
If you can roll along almost effortlessly at 18mph solo for 50+ miles your in the top percentile of recreation cyclists. Don't sweat it just enjoy your riding.
Another thing stop following cyclists quicker than yourself, I've dumped everyone quicker than myself and feel much better for it 😉
Have you been doing any high intensity shorter rides too?
Are you getting more elevation than the guys you are comparing to?
To go faster you need to either pedal faster or push a harder gear or both, it's that simple.
How you maintain that is the trick and that's where you need to work on your power output and of course your power to weight ratio (the 'to weight' bit is important as you can push out less power than them as long as you are lighter).
The way to enhance this is usually via HIIT or high intensity interval training. Basically training your heart to be able to operate at a higher rate for longer.
I'm sure others will have other opinions.
You need to do base training (long slower miles) then add speed work on the top. Buy a training book. You effectively have two engines in your body, a long slow one and a short fast one. They both need training differently and you need them to work together.
28-29kph is brisk but isn't that fast really, generally that's my going for a road bike ride speed, rather than killing myself speed. I didn't used to be anywhere near that fast tho, it all changed when I started to ride into work - I generally do 90km a week commuting with heavy panniers and then do a 100k or so on the road bike at the weekend. The other option why they're faster is because they may have genetic advantages - since it's several people, it may be that you're genetically predisposed to be less efficient (i'll use efficient as a proxy for lung capacity, ability to use food to create energy, efficiency of muscles, etc) than the average cyclist (which is obviously a self selecting group in the first place).
EDIT: My other top tip is to get a power meter. It doesn't lie, so you can see when you're slacking off. Certainly made me faster!
I did 55 miles yesterday at an average of 17.5 mph with an average heart rate of 134, 74% of maximum which puts it in the middle of Zone 3. I wouldn't describe it as effortless by any means, my legs certainly didn't think so.
A year ago I'd have been very happy with 17 mph a 30 mile ride and had my legs not been suffering a bit I might have gone a bit faster yesterday. The biggest difference for me was starting to use the turbo then buying a smart one with ERG mode a couple of months ago. I do hard sessions but also long easy ones on it. It's great having something that both makes you work really hard but can also make you do a really easy workout.
Without knowing the OP's typical weekly riding it's hard to say what he's doing right/wrong or needs tweaking.
Whenever this comes up I post the same thing: most people's hard sessions aren't hard enough and their easy sessions aren't easy enough. I.e. on a scale of one to ten, they'll do a hard session at level 6 but their easy sessions are at level 5. Should be something like level 8/9 and level 2. If done properly HIIT sessions should be limited to one a week. By done properly you should feel like you are turning your guts inside out on each effort whether that's hill reps or sprints.
It also takes a while, as in several months, to see the change. Back when I did a lot of fell running I'd a loop to the top of the local hill and back that would take me 60-64mins to do. I started doing one session, less than an hour including warm up and cool down, of hill reps. My times on the loop dropped to the 57-60min range then one evening after about 3 months I posted a 49min time. I was "like where the hell did that come from!?" All the training suddenly kicked in. From memory I think my best time ended up being 47mins or so.
Stop caring and just enjoy yourself?
Unless you're holding up a group, which you're not as you say riding solo, then does it really matter?
(Disclaimer: I'm not a roadie and just go out on my mountain bike to have fun)
It just feels like I should be travelling faster for the perceived effort I am putting in
Are your brakes rubbing?
According to what you wrote, the other riders are not actually going faster than you, they are maintaining the same speed as you for a longer time.
If that's what you want to achieve, you need to do some interval training (as described above) to increase your ability to sustain the necessary power for a longer period. Doing "lots of low intensity big miles" will train your body to do lots of low intensity big miles; you need to move above that.
There is no secret, unfortunately. Either the riders you are comparing yourself to are doing the appropriate training, or they might just be physiologically better at putting out the required Watts for longer than you.
Are your brakes rubbing?
feels like it !
18mph on the flat doesn't take many watts at all on a road bike with proper road tyres. On a previous thread I stated that I can easily hold 20 mph on the flat with no wind whilst putting out 200 watts. In fact it's closer to 190 required last time I checked.
The big variable is elevation however. I have never averaged 20 mph on a road ride yet have regularly put out more than 190 watts average. In fact I struggle to average more than 17 solo unless I'm trying to smash it, as my routes usually have close to 100 ft climbing per mile.
Or context, I'm not a racer, or particularly fast but my ftp is around 4 watts per kilo, so I'm of a reasonable standard in the grand scheme of things. Don't worry about average speed as there are too many variables.
My general speed in about 25kmph average. Lots of people I ride with and can out climb easily go faster than this. I'm slow in the flat but they also do flatter rides on faster roads so our difference in ave speed increase.
Make sure you always stop at the same cafes and order the same cake and drink. Then you will be able to ask for 'the usual', saving vital seconds. #marginalGains
Are they bigger than you? Much, much easier for a big person (even unfit) to roll along at a decent pace on the flat while the smaller, lighter rider is going flat out just to keep up.
I have to channel my inner Quintana on group rides.
For reference here is yesterdays long steady ride. I have been doing these rides weekly since August last year. During the winter I did harder shorter rides on the turbo, and since the clock change have done a couple of evening shorter harder rides each week.
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I'm assuming you're riding on different roads? If so, are YOU having to do more junctions, stops, traffic, etc? Even a few minutes stationary can have a big effect on average time.
Tyres/kit/bike will also have an effect.
My solo average on a 32c tyred gravel bike over 100 miles is about 17mph with around 7000ft of climbing. My power on this is quite low at around 160W. I also do lots of 20+mph commutes which last about an hour. These tend to average between 190 and 310W.
Pacing?
I do a little loop sometimes if I want to do some hill repeats, 3-4 minute climb, rolling flat and descent back to start of climb. If I smash the climb ('smash' being a very relative term!) then recover for 4-5 minutes on the short flat and descent, then smash the climb again, my average pace ends up being pretty high.
I think there is more to be gained from pushing on the climbs and recovering on the flats, than there is just hammering the flats and crawling the climbs.
For a long steady ride those HR zones should all be shifted down by one. I.e. 1:38 in zone 1, 1:50 in zone 2, even 53mins in zone 3 is too much.
I did an 85km ride with 1200m of ascent the other day, a tad under 4hrs: all was in zones 1 & 2 apart from 8 minutes in zone 3. That's a steady ride.
are they younger than you ? This may be something you can't just train away
Can you get aero ? I'm not talking expensive wheels, tt bike but getting tucked in makes a difference
Are you loaded down with bottles, tools, food etc? two big bottles full of fluid versus one small bottle is a kilo straight off the bat.
Where did you get your heart rate zones from?
I'm 85kg, regular rider but relatively 'untrained'. I've just started taking an interest in training properly so have carried out my own max heart rate test (outdoors) and an indoors threshold test.
Results were approx 185bpm max and 164bpm threshold. However I've read that max heart rate tests can be very unreliable for untrained riders as they just can't/don't push hard enough. Meanwhile I think I went too easy on the threshold test and was able to sit at 170bpm going up the Sa Calobra last week (in crazy heat, which I hope explains why I was 5 minutes off my PB...)
Either way, if your heart rate zones were out then you might actually be closer to whitestone's recommendations than you think?
Tailwagger are you sure you have your heart rate zones correct? Almost 2 hours tempo with almost an hour threshold on top of it is definitely not a long steady ride if your HR zones are accurate.
I've found this year since refocusing my training from aiming at 24hr racing to aiming at XC and Marathons for short'ish rides, 100km or less, I can average 30-32kph solo with a decent amount of elevation (considering where I live) so around 500-800m at around 175 in Z2/3
I'm not big by any means (179cm 76kg) nor young (42) but can put out decent power when needed. I can also max out HR at 196bpm. I always have a small saddle bag, 1 or 2 bottles and a pump on my non-aero frame, do have 35mm deep wheels and top quality tyres though
It would be relatively easy to look at your kit.
As above, how aero are you. If you imagine looking at yourself head on how big is the area.
Position - upright is slow as a rule you need to be as aero as possible without compromising power/comfort.
Bike - loose cables, saddle bags pumps strapped on the side, bottle etc. can you tidy it up.
Clothes - tighter fitting clothes are a good bet.
You then get into spending money. Good tyres and tubes at the right pressure have lower rolling resistance. Wheels can help. Aero helmet and clothing generally designed to be more stream line.
Not sure how much help it is. But in this report there is a photo of me on my road bike in a TT racing position. I'm not massively stronger than other riders but I can hold this position for an hour or so. No aero bike or wheels (money!) but everything else that could cause drag is taken care of. Granted you can't do this for a long ride (no bottles or kit would be risky) but you can think about what you need.
https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/race-report/18255#anchor
After that it is hard work that makes you faster. Get to know what it feels like riding at your threshold. Know what you can do and ignore your body telling you it is a bad idea and you should ease off.
Two things:
A little fitness goes a VERY long way on a road bike.
A little fitness takes a VERY long time to achieve!
There's rules of thumb like the most you'll achieve is 1% fitness gains per week (unless you're an exception, like coming back from a break) even with a well structured training program. So getting 2mph quicker from 17-19mph is actually a good 20 weeks of training! But the average roadie doing a sunday clubrun and a couple of evening rides is already doing quite a lot of riding.
MTBers on the other hand, as a whole, we like pies, beer and faffing. If (made up statistic alert) 90% of roadies in a club are moderately fit, then 90% of MTBers who ride with mates (because we're too cool for formal clubs) are barely fitter than the population at large. I bumped into some friends the other day who I'd not ridden with in ages, they probably ride 2x per week most of the year. 90% of my riding this year has been within the last 6 weeks (about 600 miles, mostly "gravel"), so I'm massively unfit, but have 'form' as I'd had a couple of days rest. I was leaving them for dead!
So yea, basically your friends are fitter than you. Even the most aero wheels on an aero frame (assuming you're in a similar position to them) is worth only a few watts, maybe 5-10% at most if you were starting from a really bad bike as the baseline and a Venge as the other extreme.
As above, that doesn't look anything like my 'steady' rides.
Looking at your ride up there, if you're riding almost 15mph on a hilly route, you should be able to do 18mph on a flat ride over a similar distance.
Junctions make an absolutely huge difference to your average speed. On my commute in Germany it was pancake flat, and at my best I could hold 42kph on the flat. There was one hill and four or five junctions in 18 miles, and one set of lights. My best average, when I caught the lights, was 33.2kph. The only time I've ever beaten 20mph average and that required luck, an extremely flat course and good form.
Although I don't have aero wheels and I was wearing a small pack that sit quite flush to my back. And I don't shave my legs.
Are they bigger than you? Much, much easier for a big person (even unfit) to roll along at a decent pace on the flat while the smaller, lighter rider is going flat out just to keep up.
TIs and what tbiker and molgrips said. Yesterday i did 148k averaging 17.2mph trying to stay at 200w in my z2 . Actually averaged 167w. BUT my club colleague is 20kg lighter than me and pointed out that 205w is the middle of his sweet spot, so he was having a harder day out than I was
It's the age old saying, it doesn't get easier you just get faster.
Getting faster takes training. Try to get yourself on a training plan and stick to it. Interval training done correctly will raise your functional power and get you faster.
Much, much easier for a big person (even unfit) to roll along at a decent pace on the flat
Tell me about it, I'm 56kg and keeping up on the flat can be bloody hard work. I simply run out of power, heart rate may be ok but the legs just can't generate any more force through the pedals. On the other hand I can hide behind someone else to great benefit and once the road goes up you actually see how fit people are.
Op Ive got a months trial for trainer road if you want a proper training plan to get quicker and have a turbo trainer. Drop me a pm if you want to give it a whirl
Op Ive got a months trial for trainer road if you want a proper training plan to get quicker and have a turbo trainer. Drop me a pm if you want to give it a whirl
Thanks, I have a subscription already, along with zwift.
Deep down I know its about fitness, I just thought I might be further along after 10 months of riding. Its not been structured riding, but has included plenty or regular time on the bike.
This is after a period of about 3 years of sporadic riding. Previous to that I was a stone lighter and fitter from commuting 30 miles a day. Back then I could avg 20mph for an hour at I guess 80-90% effort.
I feel as fit as I did prior to the commuting, when 18mph avg felt fairly easy. Maybe its just old age, being 4-5 years older?
I can testify to size helping, i did a Swedish 150km over the weekend, very flat with strong headwinds, i did well for me being 95kg and broad, as i had the power to battle the headwinds as i have been training to spend more time in the drops, its surprising how many people you find behind every time you look round when you're bigger, then the buggers all swing round you and disappear as soon as the road points upwards!
I tend to work on a 80/20 ratio, trying to do distance work for 80% of the time in zone 2 on the actual bike, then 20% of the hard interval work mostly on turbo even in summer, mixed up with a bit of mountain biking and singlespeeding with friends for fun.
Its not been structured riding, but
There are no buts, without structure it isn't training it's just going for a bike ride. I do all my training on the turbo, even the very easy stuff, then when I go out its just for the enjoyment of riding a bike. Obviously you can use just riding your bike as part of training it's just harder to stick to a plan on real roads or trails.
There are no buts, without structure it isn’t training it’s just going for a bike ride. I do all my training on the turbo, even the very easy stuff, then when I go out its just for the enjoyment of riding a bike. Obviously you can use just riding your bike as part of training it’s just harder to stick to a plan on real roads or trails.
Yeah I know. Coming back from a semi break, I decided to leave out the structure and just get out and ride as much as possible through last winter and this summer. At the end of the summer I plan to start a proper plan through next winter.
You’re not very fit. HTH.
Seriously, you are doing all your long rides at 2/3 intensity. Slack off to 1/3. Then do a short hard interval. Drop those zones and don’t worry about the speed.
Also position. Are you always on the hoods? It’s common for people to lower their bars a bit so the hoods are higher and drops unused. If so, raise the bars a cm and get down on the drops more. I like a third of my time on the drops. You will notice the aero gains immediately.
Other aero gains? Flappy jersey is worth a few watts, particularly if you are larger.
As a rough rule, 200 watts will see you at 20 mph on the flat for a reasonable position.
There are no buts, without structure it isn’t training it’s just going for a bike ride. I do all my training on the turbo, even the very easy stuff, then when I go out its just for the enjoyment of riding a bike. Obviously you can use just riding your bike as part of training it’s just harder to stick to a plan on real roads or trails.
I've actually got a couple of hours with a coach tonight just to figure out the basics of a training plan, because at the moment I'm trying to figure out how to combine commuting (3-5 hours Z1/Z2 a week), turbo sessions (probably just one at Z4), but also 'riding for fun' which is typically 3-5 hours at Z2-3 (I assume, haven't yet been out with HRM).
I'd understood that from a training perspective, the 3-5 hours at Z2-3 was considered 'junk' as it wasn't hard enough to improve, but was too hard to simply jump on the turbo the next night and knock out some intervals?
I’m trying to figure out how to combine commuting (3-5 hours Z1/Z2 a week)
It's one of the reasons I'm seriously thinking of an ebike when I get back to commuting by bike, makes it much easier to keep the commuting in lower zones.
Get an e bike
In the name of science I did a solo ride yesterday to see what kind of power I need to hold to ride at 18mph.
Chose a reasonable flat course with a few hills, 38 miles with around 2300 ft of climbing. According to garmin I averaged 18.26 mph and to do that I had to average a very modest 185 watts for 2 hrs, 220 watts normalized. That speed/power only included moving time, not waiting at traffic lights etc. I weigh 67 kg, and was on a canyon ultimate with deep section wheels.
For reference on similar length rides with more climbing, with similar power I'm usually at least 1mph less.
Going by that, I think that on a pan flat course it would be fairly easy to average close to 20mph at that power.
Chose a reasonable flat course with a few hills, 38 miles with around 2300 ft of climbing. According to garmin I averaged 18.26 mph and to do that I had to average a very modest 185 watts for 2 hrs
OK so that's my point. If I go out and avg 200 watts (on feel of what 200watts feels like on my smart turbo) I only avg around 16mph. So why is so low?
Depending upon what turbo you have, its 200W reading could easily be inflated by at least 10%, for instance the Tacx Flux.
Worth noting that most turbo apps don't simulate wind, I couldn't tell you one without googling, certainly not Zwift; RGT; Virtugo.
I very rarely focus on my power and/or speed on the flat, I'm much more interested in my efforts up inclines, especially categorised hills... Despite now being ~81Kg, middle aged and having lost all my winter gains thanks to a chest infection through most of spring.
Interval training near and beyond you FTP will give you power gains, for instance Zwift's "Emily's Short Mix" is a good little workout, or out on the road give a hill of under 10mins everything you have before recovering for ~10mins on the way to the next hill.
You can go to town on reducing aero drag and improving your speed for the same power output, not all apply to solo rides...
OK so that’s my point. If I go out and avg 200 watts (on feel of what 200watts feels like on my smart turbo) I only avg around 16mph. So why is so low?
Do you weigh 67kg?
I very much doubt that you can estimate your wattage with any sort of accuracy on a bike based on what it feels like on a turbo
Success, so according to that video its all down to my beard! That`ll be coming off tonight then.
OK so that’s my point. If I go out and avg 200 watts (on feel of what 200watts feels like on my smart turbo) I only avg around 16mph. So why is so low?
Speed is something difficult to quantify because it's so variable depending on terrain. If I went out riding at 200w from my door, I'd be very lucky to see a 16mph average, but I'm in quite a hilly area with steep climbs and technical descents. Also, with any kind of climbing, bodyweight is a massive factor.
OK so that’s my point. If I go out and avg 200 watts (on feel of what 200watts feels like on my smart turbo) I only avg around 16mph. So why is so low?
It can be hard to average the same power outside as inside (for similar effort) when you're actually measuring it with a power meter, so there is no chance of doing this on feel.
Honestly you sound pretty fit so it's probably more the mentality of it. Just going out and doing 15mph solo avg feels like an effort to me as there's no incentive and I CBA with it, but I know from time trialling that I could physically do 17,18 comfy. Just don't have that roadie mentality to ride at a decent clip around the place as a normal thing.
You also need to think about what your goals actually are in terms of getting faster - if it is just to be fit and generically decent on a bike then I can see why this would be a bit of a benchmark. But road clubs are full of blokes who can knock out 17,18 solo pace no prob, racking up huge TSS along with it, and are still basically slow in any form of bike race.
Do you weigh 67kg?
Exactly. On my 200w ride i averaged 18.2. Im 79kg and found outnwith the many junctions etc over 148k in Essex i actually averaged 170w / 195np approx. See also rolling resistance, aero, power accuracy, wind, air temp/density and gearing.
OK so that’s my point. If I go out and avg 200 watts (on feel of what 200watts feels like on my smart turbo) I only avg around 16mph. So why is so low?
As others have said unless you have a power meter you can't estimate wattage accurately
Buy more importantly, as I said before, your pace at a given wattage will be determined by the route, and how flat/hilly it is. If I ride my usual route at the same average power I did yesterday my average speed is around 17 mph, ie 1.3 mph slower for same effort. Because it's got more climbing.
Global Cycling Network are presumably monitoring this thread as they have just published a video entitled 'how to improve your average speed'.
I haven't watched it so can't really comment but you might find it interesting.
I maintain you need to work on your FTP via HIIT. Watts output on it's own is meaningless, it's watts/kg which is important.
Personally it's easy for me as I do the following:
- shaved off beard = 0.25 watts saving (not shaving)
- Tyres at 109 psi instead of 73 psi = 5W per tyre saving
- No Saddle Bag = 0.5W saving
- Glasses = 1W saving
- Helmet with covered vents = 5 to 10W saving
- Shaved arms and legs = 15W saving
- always have someone following me as they improve the airflow = 12W saving
- Clean and Lubricated Chain 1 – 3W saving
- Tight fitting aero clothing = 15W saving
- Riding with forearms flat / hands on the hoods = 30W saving
- Ride 30cm behind another rider = 150W saving
So with all that I'm putting out 245 watts before even getting on the bike meaning it's simple...
I also found that the most effective weight saving is to not carry a 1 litre (1 kilo) bottle of water. I just get a mate to ride with me carrying two bottles and he passes me my bottle every time I need a drink.
...probably
Just had a thought whilst out riding today. Don't know if it's been mentioned earlier in the thread.
OP - how do you know that these other riders are in Zones 2 & 3? Do they state so in the comments on Strava? If you are just going off the actual NR values then it's highly unlikely that their zones and yours match.
