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I've got to front my parents up about their future care - but don't know how!
Mother is 86, dad is 83. But they just don't accept they'll need care. It's been approached numerous times over the years and they bury their heads in the sand thinking the wife and I will take them in. We just can't, we have a two bedroom house (for 3 of us), both need to work full time, and the house isn't suitable even if my daughter had fully left home.
They keep harking back to when they took my grandads in, but they had a large house with plenty of space and worked for themselves so could take any time needed for care needs. And they're still rattling around in the same 4 double bed house.
Carers in home - nope, they'll turn out to be mad axe-wielding murders!
I said years ago they should put their names down for an OAP bungalow in the village (of which their are many), but no, we love it where we live.
I need to do some groundwork on what's available so I can chuck options at them, but where do I start? Assisted living seems the most appropriate at this point. And if they sold their house they'd have £200k ish to play with.
Protecting any inheritance is not an issue, what we don't have we won't miss.
Every option is batted and I know it'll land on the wife and I.
They're in a 4-bed house and you in a two, sell yours and move in with them.
You have Power of Attorney in place, yes?
Can I start by asking if you've got power of attorney and wills sorted out?
The disaster my inlaws left MrsMC and her brothers to sort out focused my parents minds bit, so now only at "semi-denial"stage
Hmmm. Should the thread be retitled "How to deal with parents whose offspring **n't look after them,"
We (my sister and I) are at a not-dissimilar stage with our Mum. Divorced parents so she's on her own. Many times we thought she might sell up and move up north to be closer to at least one of us but no, she likes it where she is blah blah.
She's now at a stage where she can do very little around the house as her back is so bad so she sort of shuffles around "tidying" (translation - moving one pile of tat a short distance before she has to put it down and rest).
We have now got Power of Attourney in place. If you haven't got that, get it sorted now. It'll take a couple of months to come through. Can pretty much guarantee they won't consider moving; once they get to that age they just want familiar surrounds and the comfort blanket of all their stuff, all their memories in that house so any attempt to get them to move will be met with that.
We had to almost literally prise our grandparents out of their place when my grandma lost her marbles completely and the house was a shambles, my grandpa had simply not coped in trying to look after her but just denied it. "oh yes, we're getting by..."
Do either of your parents still drive? Check up on that cos if their driving is truly shit they'll a) probably not be aware and b) resist any attempt to give that up too. You can buy yourself a bit of time if they can sell the car and use the money for taxis / bus etc to get around. The only thing that stopped my grandpa from driving was the insurance premiums going through the roof cos he'd had so many low speed prangs and bumps - mostly with walls and parked cars rather than people thankfully.
The second option, callous though it sounds, is just to accept that they are how they are and wait for them to shuffle off this mortal coil and deal with the aftermath - just make sure you have a POA in place.
^ we looked after both our female grandparents in the family home .... it was at different times.
Hmmm. Should the thread be retitled “How to deal with parents whose offspring **n’t look after them
No irrespective of whether that's can't or won't.
The thing I'd be most concerned about is POAs.
Without those you are in the sherbert if anything goes wrong quick and at that point it'll be court to sort it.
The oldest of us in our house is more than 30 years younger than your folks we have the financial and health type ones both in place. My BIL spending 6 weeks in ICU early on in Covid without that sorted was a wake up call.
Fwiw my gran had end of life care at home although bedridden over an extended period after a serious cardiac issue. Carers in and out for many months. We (well my sister and mum who were local) had little warning. They just got on with it at the time and did what they could. They did have POAs etc all set up and I think that made a colossal difference.
Flipping the standard rhetoric on its head my mum thrust some document under my nose to sign, she is has sorted the POA and put it all in order for us. Hopefully she has nothing planned
Very timely for me, I've even thought about starting my own thread. The last week has been a rollercoaster.
My dad is just coming up to 80 and his mental capacity is rapidly declining, most likely dementia but he's refused anything which might give us a diagnosis.
No POA because he's a stubborn fool. We've tried so many times and sadly we're past the point now, he no longer has the capacity/attention span to understand it.
Last week he has a visit from a PCSO who has had 'reports' (plural) from neighbours that he shouldn't be on the road. He's basically been told to stop immediately, he's not legal and will be in big trouble if he's caught.
Knowing he was just going to ignore them and drive anyway, me and my sister paid him a surprise visit last week and immobilised his car for him.
He then vowed to dis-own us (but has thankfully calmed down a little)
It's been fun!
Now trying to organise some basic care for him at home. Considering moving him across the country to be nearer to us.
This is all new territory for me. The next X years are going to be quite testing I think!
4th post - excellent - PM me and I'll send you the winners bag of Haribos. Any preference on flavour? Big bag or bag of mini bags.
For those offering helpful advice - thanks.
POA - we're in the process of sorting this.
They’re in a 4-bed house and you in a two, sell yours and move in with them.
If only it were that simple. They have equity release on the house, they have old debts from the family business which were frozen by StepChange (but are still owing), if we moved in their benefits would be removed as our joint incomes would then be taken into account. They always lived for the day, have no private pensions or savings.
I also worry that if we were on the deeds we'd become liable for those debts. And there's my sister and brother as well.
Not easy OP, good luck with it all.
Can only speak from the POA side of things in that hopefully it all goes through ok for you.
We had to go through The Court Of Protection for one member of family, roll on 2+ years and £4.5k later it was near the point of being completed when they unfortunately passed on.
This example spurred others we know to get POA done for themselves!
Should the thread be retitled “How to deal with parents whose offspring **n’t look after them
No, and that's enormously unhelpful.
There are certain types of threads on here where, if you have nothing constructive to add, you should just keep schtum. This is one of them.
On top of POA get yourself as a named person on EVERY utility and bank account. You have no idea how much of a massive bawache it is wading through all that should the worst happen.
Do they have any illnesses?
With dementia and others they may be exempt from council tax.
Also if you have to spend time looking after them you may be able to claim attendance allowance.
We use this to fund a career who pops in once a day for 30 mins.
Meals can be simplified by using something like wiltshire farm foods, cook from frozen and they will deliver direct to freezer.
Also you maybe able to contact Adult Care where you live, explain your concern and see if they will detail a care plan.
If they see a need and don’t have the funds to pay they might provide it free, if they seem to be at risk you may get 6 weeks care free and a social worker to help you work through it.
This is our local one
https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/social-health/adult-care-and-wellbeing/how-to-access-care-and-support/how-to-access-care-and-support.aspx
Plus it’s 2 POA per person and they take months to progress. Good luck
It's a diffucult situation and a hard question to answer, I had financial POA but never needed to use it, but not the health one, so when my nan passed it was a case of the NHS refusing to do any treatment, and only palitalve care, hitting the kill switch basically.... harsh but it was only going to go the wrong way down the bel curve.
She was pretty independent up unitl 94yo, right until the last month, a truly independant woman.
What I would say is make sure they have thier wills sorted out properly, as a well written will will save a lot of greif when tehy do pass.
I'm glad we sorted PoA out months ago. I've told my dad, 84, about a promotion at work 5 times now and mum phoned this morning to say he was wondering why we'd never mentioned it.
It's a sad truth that many people turn into stubborn fools as they age. All you can do is be prepared to deal with the fallout really. PoA are a good idea, but if they are really stubborn and stupid enough they'll resist even that.
There was no way any of us could have looked after FIL and MIL 24/7. FIL did get carers in for MIL after her stroke - assistance with bed etc. After he passed we had carers in 4x a day, plus us once a day between 3 sisters. We managed to keep her in her house for 5 years as her mobility got worse - couldn't walk other than to shuffle onto a commode, or wheel chair. After a fall and refusing to do more exercise, the only alternative was a care home, as to live at home would then need 2 staff to move her from a chair to bed/wheel chair, which wasn't possible with home care.
You can't put your own lives on hold/stopped as you need to earn a living. Much of MIL's huse value went in care costs, so be it. It was hard enough with 4 care visits a day to keep her looked after.
We put POA in at the point FIL died as MIL refused to deal with any household affairs - e.g. bills ! That was a nightmare.
PS we've had 15 years of looking after the in-laws following ill health. It's been hard - my daughter of 19 doesn't remember 'nana' ever being well. Nana passed last year after 3 years in a Nursing Home. My folks are OK at the minute, but sis has said she'd do POA, but hasn't yet.
Much of MIL’s house value went in care costs, so be it.
My former boss - his MiL has been in a care home for years and it's basically taken all her savings and now into about 70% of the value of her house to look after her.
Plus the cost of his wife driving the 150 mile round trip to the care home 2-3 times a week.
Just be aware of that possibility...
It's been really tough on them.
You can’t put your own lives on hold/stopped
This is wise advice. I basically did that for my parents at the age of 35 and looking back it had a massive affect on my work prospects and outlook. Not all bad as if gave me huge levels of humility.
Mine are sort of the opposite, PoA sorted out a while back and when visiting my uncles grave mum pointed out her and dad's plots .....
Dads health has seriously went downhill the past couple of years and they should be getting help in soon but that's a moving target date wise. Mums already mentioned sheltered housing but they've been in their house since they were married and that's close to 60 years so not sure whatll happen.
You can’t put your own lives on hold/stopped
This is wise advice. I basically did that for my parents at the age of 35 and looking back it had a massive affect on my work prospects and outlook. Not all bad as if gave me huge levels of humility.
Yep,it’s grim, my mum moved in to look after my gran who was struggling on her own (80’s)
As a ‘short term’ solution.
When she came back home to my dad 10 years later they had a normal life for a few months and then my dad had a heart attack and triple bypass. They think he also managed to slip a stroke in as well as he’s never been quite right after that.
They are both happily getting on with life but my mum regrets a few of the decisions she made with care decisions and not putting her mum into care instead of doing the ‘looking after’.
“There are certain types of threads on here where, if you have nothing constructive to add, you should just keep schtum. This is one of them.”
I’d say that about all threads (and life in general actually) but apparently some people just can’t keep their traps shut…
I had POA for my grand parents and it was a life saver when things started to go south. It needs to be put in place before it’s too late though. Once incompetence starts to set in you’ve had it.
Good luck - I don’t envy you.
To expand a bit on MrsMC"s experience with her parents....
Pre Covid, they were happily living in the bungalow they had for 60 years, although FiL had prostate cancer and MiL was beginning to get a bit more confused.
As lockdowns were released, it became clear she had deteriorated and he was now doing a lot of caring. A couple of health scares for him and brief hospital stays highlighted the problem. They agreed to downsize to supported accommodation.
At this point we found that their PoA only had each other as attorneys. He had his marbles and could act for her, but she didn't have capacity. He was able to do a new PoA so their kids could act for him, but they had to go to Court of Protection to get a new PoA for her due to lack of capacity. That took several months.
Trying to care for MiL was literally killing him, so she had to go into a home. He was doing OK on his own in the supported accommodation, but fell and broke his hip, which was the start of a rapid 6 month spiral in ill health till he passed away.
They had wills, so everything went to MiL, with kids as executors as well as PoA for her, but as they were canny investors and had small savings plans and shares all over, it took a year to track all the funds and get them in her name.
At which point she had a series of strokes and we lost her in January.
Luckily we had a few days notice, and MrsMC and her brothers used their PoA to get dome money withdrawn to pay for the funeral, rather than have to pay themselves and wait 3-4 months for probate.
Hopefully this might make a few parents think of the things that need thinking about and planning for
My father died, at 85 in a care home with dementia and bed bound after a fall a year earlier, at the end of October and my mother has just gone into a home in Lisbon, prior to that I was principal carer for both, including through lockdown.
As others have mentioned being a career for your parents is a shit sandwich, with stale bread and lots of extra filling. My hard-learned lessons;
LPA, get them, get them in place asap, get yourself known by the GPS and any other care providers. Get bank cards and cheque books issued to whoever is the Attorney.
They won’t listen to those closest but may listen to exactly the same message from others. Sometimes tough love is needed and I wasn’t that good at that but people with a bit of distance were.
Local authorities can provide help. My parents house had various grab rails and stability aids provided by the LA. My mother was also in a proper hospital bed downstairs, again provided by the LA once the stairs became impassible.
Old people fall over, lots. Make sure the house and gardens are safe and they have a way of summoning help; either emergency beacon thing or mobile. Make sure you have the neighbour’s phone numbers. A wheelchair is very handy!
Even little old people are a heavy dead-weight when they’re on the ground.
Key safe is really handy, for emergency services, social services etc and for when you traipse over there and realise you’ve forgotten the bloody key again. IIRC the local authority provided and fitted my parent’s one for them.
Online shopping delivery is a real time saver.
Home help / care is expensive (savings impact the cost) and pretty poor. My mother had a helper in one hour a day every day for an hour, that was running at about £900 pcm iirc, it was fully paid by my parents. The helpers are rushed, don’t spend an hour despite the cost and do a fairly basic service. Be alive to the reality of the service your parents may get, it may not be the answer.J
Care homes can be quite depressing. My dad was in an ok one but it was miserable for him and all of us.My mother was very anti going into a home. However when visiting my brother in Lisbon for a few months it was raised by him and the dangers of being at home alone spelt out and she agreed to try it. Apparently she was very stressed the day before but is really enjoying it now. It is safe and she has company and her reticence has gone, obviously she would prefer to be at home if she could but the brutal reality is she couldn’t manage and would probably fall and that would be the beginning of the end for her (my father tripped, fell over in his bedroom, onto soft carpet, and broke his hip, he lived 13 more months but never managed to walk again.
Being a carer can be like having a black cloud over you all the time, take care of your(and your loved one’s) mental well-being.
Friends of ours moved into a local oak’s bungalow complex (this was in Ireland and we bought their former farmhouse off them) it was great for them. Suitable, safe accommodation and a little community too. I would try and push that avenue with your parents.
MrsMC and her brothers used their PoA to get some money withdrawn to pay for the funeral, rather than have to pay themselves and wait 3-4 months for probate.
Slightly off topic, but if there is money in the deceased bank you don't have to wait for probate to pay for funerals (or to my surprise a wake) out of their account. In fact I should congratulate Halifax on how well they handled it for me earlier this year.
my father tripped, fell over in his bedroom, onto soft carpet, and broke his hip, he lived 13 more months
The excess mortality for folks over 50 with a hip replacement is shocking. I've seen studies that suggest as many as one in three over 50's dies within 12 months of a hip replacement
This has echoes of my in laws .MIL deteriorated rapidly FIL insisted he could cope , he couldn't. Care visits were arranged, he refused to let them in 😔He was so desperate to keep her at home , when we said about replacing the bath with a shower being tight he came up with a solution. He sawed a piece out of the side of the bath so she could step in ( I kid you not )shower on taps . Eventually he had to give in , she went into a local care home and he could walk to visit .
Eventually he went the same way , we couldn't get him to answer the door , police came and broke in , he'd fell over in the bedroom and became wedged behind the door with no clue what was happening.He moved in the same home where they spent their last couple of years together.
I got a call at work to say she had passed , I couldn't believe when I got there she was in bed obviously gone and he was sat in a chair next to her no attempt to cover her up or take him to another room . After a while he just said matter of fact like " Has she gone "
It's just crap , I'm a firm believer that while anybody is able they should be allowed to sign a legal document that if they get to a certain state just let them go .
Thanks again all.
Being a carer can be like having a black cloud over you all the time, take care of your(and your loved one’s) mental well-being.
This is another issue to add into the mix - my wife has been on citalopram for years and is perimenopausal - so we'd need to manage things carefully to avoid a downward spiral.
One thing that has occurred to me - we are short of house space, but not garden space. As a half-way house between staying in their own house and moving into care could we put them in a posh-shed? They could use facilities in house while they are still mobile.
get power of attourney asap if you have not already. and good luck
It really is a shite state of affairs, how poor the provision of elderly care and support is in this country. Its all too easy for it to become a crushing burden on children that assume the role of carer. As happened to my mum with her mum. Oldest daughter, felt a duty to provide care, which, I feel, kind of ruined what turned out to be the last years of her life as she died suddenly in her mid-60s.
So, your first duty is to yourself, partner and any children you have. You're of no use to anyone if caring for your parents has ground you down.
PoA is applied for, right? Has there been any diagnosis of dementia or similar? If so, you might be too late. I had a similar thing with my dad, whose mental decline became really noticeable after my mums death. We reckon that she'd been managing/hiding that from everyone, but it became impossible to miss. Eventually, after multiple goes, my wife managed to pretty much force his GP to take it seriously and get him assessed, so by then, we'd missed the PoA bus and had to apply for Guardianship (not sure if that's just a Scottish thing). Which was and remains a massive legal and bureaucratic ballache.
But, the whole situation is brutal, and typing this out is bringing a lot of grief back to the surface and I'm now sitting here with tears welling up. I'm really sorry pal, I hope things go as well as possible for you and your family.
Hmmm. Should the thread be retitled “How to deal with parents whose offspring **n’t look after them,”
So who do you think should give up work to look after the parents, in this situation? The OP? His partner? Both of them?
Have you been in a similar situation?
It’s just crap , I’m a firm believer that while anybody is able they should be allowed to sign a legal document that if they get to a certain state just let them go .
I think we're going to have to grasp the nettle and at least seriously address this issue before long. At the moment, as a society, we're ploughing enormous amounts of resources into keeping people alive who have absolutely zero quality of life. None whatsoever. You get to asking what the actual point is?
We're having similar issues to @the-muffin-man and others with the in-laws, so I can fully sympathise. My wife could have written that post. This has been going on for 3 or 4 years now and she's absolutely at the end of her tether with it all. Its incredibly stressful.
Nobody wants to be getting 2am phone calls about yet another ambulance called. They've both been in and out of hospital after falls, the stays getting longer every time. She actually spent a lot of time and trouble putting care packages in place after a recent spell in hospital, only for them to cancel it all within a week, because... erm... we haven't got a ****ing clue, actually! Just because...
While they're in hospital they talk about downsizing their unsuitable house and moving into something more fitting, maybe assisted living, then once they get back home it all goes out of the window... until the next 2am phone call and what we now refer to as 'the roundabout of doom' resets and starts all over again.
I don't have any answers for you. I wish I did. But as the replies here show, you're far from alone in this. Its horrible!
The 'bills' thing is very important. When we got POA for MIL we had to phone all the suppliers to get the POA recognised. As has been said, old folk get stubborn in their old age. MIL refused to deal with any of her bills, and even to the point she didn't want to listed to the legal stuff she was supposed to agree to before handing the 'bills' to her daughter. We'd sit there listening to the script, then hand to phone to MIL for her to just say 'yes', so we could get 'control' of the bills.
My wife had left a job when MIL first had her heart attack to look after her, before going back to work part time. It's tough, especially if they are being stubborn, and/or demanding. MIL was quite controlling of her daughters, expecting them to drop everything for the slightest issue.
OP's folks should be able to get a fair amount of assistance through the LA's Social services.
Have you been in a similar situation?
His offspring won't look after him?
Ignore him he's just a troll
The frustrating thing is they are good people but are blind to the impact it has on others.
I've broached it before but all I get from my mother is "I'll chuck myself in the river before I go into care"!
They can't even see a situation where full time care may be needed. In their heads all they'll need is to be fed and kept clean and warm. No concept of how something like a stroke would impact them and who is caring for them.
The thing I’d be most concerned about is POAs.
Without those you are in the sherbert if anything goes wrong quick and at that point it’ll be court to sort it.
People often say that but:
1. You can only put a POA in place if the person signing it wants such an arrangement and wants it to be you. Whether its denial about the future, or wanting to ensure independence as long as possible there is no "obligation" for any older person to enter a POA, and often the way its worded on this forum you would think that it was the "child's" choice not the "parents'".
2. If I didn't want to go in a care home etc, I'd be reluctant to sign a POA in favour of my children who were not keen to care for me themselves. That seems a perfectly reasonable position to take - that you'd only grant a POA in favour of people who were willing to act / think they way you would hope to be able to act / think if you were able to do so.
3. People always say its a nightmare if there is no POA. I'm not sure its quite as bad as is made out. Social Work and the Courts are usually very keen to find someone sensible and appropriate to take on the role/responsibility. Presumably it becomes messy if there is some dispute among the likely parties, or some conflict of interest. Otherwise, the formalities don't actually seem that bad to me, people seem obsessed with POA as though it is some wonder solution - but I'm not sure lasting POAs are always the right solution for everyone.
I also worry that if we were on the deeds we’d become liable for those debts. And there’s my sister and brother as well.
Well obviously you don't do something like that without taking legal advice; it should be possible to ensure you are not liable for the debt. You don't necessarily need to sell your house to move in with them, nor does it need to be you - it could be your sister/brother. I'm not saying that is the right solution, but I think with the right advice you should be able to do that in a way which doesn't harm their benefits, and indeed if you are actually caring for them would qualify for extra benefits for you).
My parents and PIL are not as old as that yet. Both will be a nightmare when that time comes. However, I'm pretty sure that the approachability of the conversation shifts once one of them dies (or actually needs really intense care), at your parents' age that could of course be next week or it might be 5+ years away.
It really is a shite state of affairs, how poor the provision of elderly care and support is in this country. Its all too easy for it to become a crushing burden on children that assume the role of carer.
Is there a country that you think has "got it right"? (Genuine question)
Re Kilo's experience of visiting carers, when my mother needed help to remain in her own flat we got carers from a company called Home Instead and they were both very good and cheaper than Kilo's experience, although still quite expensive so not an option for everyone.
As for the right to a dignified death, I agree with this. I've just had my first Mothers Day without a mother and the thing that made me really sad was thinking of all the things that we'd told her about in her last three years that she never understood or remembered. Those years were an utter waste of so many people's time and care and so much money and resources. She had no quality of life for herself whatsoever despite being in a care home that we could not fault, and a huge negative effect on so many other people's lives. At her funeral many people said 'of course, we really lost her some years ago'. My siblings and I are determined not to put our families through a similar experience - time will tell how that works out.
Currently having this issue with the in-laws. After my wife died last year I persuaded them to update wills, power of attorney etc. which was good timing. Mother in law fell 5 weeks ago, fractured her femur then proceeded to have two cardiac arrests on the operating table when they went to pin it. She's on the mend now but the reality of them moving back to their house is very slim. MIL wasn't that mobile beforehand, eyesight going but brain okay. FIL physically okay (as much as it can be at 86) but is very deaf and dementia is kicking in and can't live on his own. It's really going to throw him moving him out of the house but I think it's a tough decision we will have to make. In reality a care home/sheltered housing was as case of when not if and this will just accelerate the process.
I'm having a break back in the UK from looking after FIL whilst MIL is in a recovery home and cousins are holding the fort. I'd already recovered a .22 rifle (this is Texas by the way) as it isn't safe for it to be around FIL given the confusion he can often have, but the cousins have now found a .38 which was loaded! I really do prefer UK gun laws.
And lastly, having cared for my wife, been through it with my dad, now helping the in-laws, there maybe times when it feels selfish to do your own thing, but you have to. If you don't look after yourself you aren't much good to anyone.
One thing that has occurred to me – we are short of house space, but not garden space. As a half-way house between staying in their own house and moving into care could we put them in a posh-shed? They could use facilities in house while they are still mobile.
You would need planning permission to build what is in essence a house - certainly a residential dwelling - and it would need all sorts of standards / utilities and so on. Far from impossible, it's just not easy or cheap.
She had no quality of life for herself whatsoever despite being in a care home that we could not fault, and a huge negative effect on so many other people’s lives. At her funeral many people said ‘of course, we really lost her some years ago’.
This but for my grandma. She had no clue who her husband of 40+ years was, only that he was familiar because he came to visit twice a day (a huge burden on him). She had no idea who we were, could barely speak and her daily routine was being washed and dressed by someone then sitting in an armchair in a room with a dozen other old folk then being undressed and washed by someone, then being put to bed.
She was unable to function in any normal way.
One thing that has occurred to me – we are short of house space, but not garden space. As a half-way house between staying in their own house and moving into care could we put them in a posh-shed? They could use facilities in house while they are still mobile.
Unless you are talking about a really serious "posh-shed" I think its a poor solution. Not sure what facilities you were not planning to include - but toilets would be essential. Nobody wants to walk outside for a pee at 3am in the rain, but certainly not in your 80s. If you were building something then equipping it with a well-designed, old-person-friendly shower would make sense anyway unless you happen to have such facilities on the ground floor of your house. Old people get cold - so you'd want it very well insulated and heated. If they are physically and mentally able they should be able to cook / make tea / warm food (even if they don't cook whole meals) - so you end up with a little pantry area - because when its cold, dark and icy outside its not great for them to come back and forth to the main house for a cuppa. If the mind starts to go you may not want them with those facilities for safety, and you may not want them able to wander away easily. So then the shed starts to sound like a cell. If physicality gets them first then one or both will be very trapped in a small space. That can't be good for their minds.
I think in terms of location, if you are physically mobile and mentally fit, is what do they do, who do they interact with, what facilities are close by. if they don't (or shouldn't) drive - which location has good public transport, which is best for the Dr, pharmacist, shop etc which is what keeps elderly people "going" longer. Once they can't leave the house (even if physically they could buy practically its just too complex) then it seems to be a downward slide.
@Poly - you make a great point about the PoA. If the recipient doesn't want it, for whatever reason, they aren't getting it.
However, I respectfully disagree with "People always say its a nightmare if there is no POA. I’m not sure its quite as bad as is made out."
It took a year to work through the Guardianship application process, involving lawyers and government. Once granted, you are overseen and need to regularly provide accounts for audit by government - regarding both financial and welfare guardian activities. And that's just the guardianship side. With no PoA, you need to jump through hoops for every provider of every service your relative consumes - health, council, utilities, taxes, driving licenses, tv license, broadband, phone, banks, ****ing store loyalty cards etc etc etc etc.
As you pointed out yourself, you have never been there, so you don't know.
s there a country that you think has “got it right”? (Genuine question)
No idea. I've only had to deal with it in Scotland. Why did you put "got it right" in quotes, out of interest?
This can be a minefield and like all minefields you need to tread carefully.
I do this sort of stuff for a living, but most of the experience that I use in my job comes from going through this with my Dad and my Father in law.
Where do you start the conversations? Do your own planning first, it will protect you and your family, and it will give you real insight that you can go to your parents with. It is much easier to start the conversation with me and my wife have just done our estate planning and we found out these things that will be relevant to you mum and dad.
What about care? This one needs a bit of research, find out about the care homes close to you - the CQC has a good list https://www.cqc.org.uk/care-services/find-care-home which tells you how they are rated. Then visit the good ones and find one that you feel comfortable with and you think your parents will be comfortable with. Once you have done this book them in for a week (the care home will call it respite care) you can dress it up as a holiday, rest, whatever will work for your parents. Once they have experienced living in a care home, even for a short while, it will be totally demystified. You will be amazed how many people love the experience and it accelerates their desire to move in.
If they don't need that level of care then the assisted living space can be a bit of a nightmare. Be very wary of buying into a McCarthy and Stone type place. They are notoriously difficult to resell after death and continue to accumulate service charges until the sale we have one that has been on the market for over 5 years and is accumulating service charges at over £6k per year. Rental is definitely the best option in this space.
Essentials - Lasting Power of Attorney and an up to date Will that protects each spouses assets in the event that one dies and the other needs care. This will at least leave some inheritance for the family (I know the OP says you are not overly worried about that). Also get pre paid funeral plans, either from the Co-op or Dignity or someone who is reputable. It is better to pay for the funeral from pre care costs rather than try and scrape the money together after care has diminished the available pot.
Finally, take professional advice before accepting any care solutions that are presented by the Local Authority, they are normally driven by cost. Make sure that you are claiming Attendance Allowance for both parents, it is not means tested and is designed to help with day to day needs.
Hope that helps. If you need anything more you can PM me and I will help if I can.
Regards
Nick.
POA does allow you to help, especially sorting bills - this is probably the main thing as your folks get less able. Even with the Health POA, MIL understood we'd do nothing that she didn't want - it was more so we had some involvement and control over her care, and we knew about her various health conditions. The POA for Finances was used all the time. The POA for Health was only used under agreement with all the family about withdrawing intervention during her last days. She'd gone into Hospital feeling unwell (suspected mini-stroke), then perked up, but by the next day was un-responsive - it was at this point we decided that intervention should stop. Still took a week for her to pass.
@NJA - thanks so much for that incredibly informative post.
We're in the situation where moving to the next stage is looking more and more inevitable but we just don't know where to start. That helps enormously. We've already got PoA in place, but after that... haven't got a clue
We want to get something now, while they're in a position to make choices for themselves, before we end up in an emergency situation with far less options available
You will be amazed how many people love the experience and it accelerates their desire to move in.
This was our experience with my gran. She insisted on staying in her (large, completely unsuitable) house and point blank refused to even countenance going 'into care'. It reached the point where my mum and her sisters just couldn't cope with her constant needs, demands and expectations so she finally tried somewhere. The place she went into was really nice and she absolutely loved it once she was there. This was a bit galling for everyone as she then kept saying she wished she'd done it years ago, having stubbornly spent those years absolutely refusing to even entertain the idea, and having everyone else running around after her 24/7 instead.
I'm sure thats quite common, and equally as annoying for all involved
NJA - I too would like to thank you for such good advice.
My 83 yr old mother has only just agreed to LPoA as she wouldn't listen to advice before, hopefully this isn't being put into place too late. She won't even have a cleaner and the house is dirty (I've offered many times, but she refuses help).
She also has said, she will never go into a home. It will be left mainly to my sister and myself to look after her. Luckily my sister has time and they get on really well.
This fills me with dread as she's accused me of various things in the past and I now struggle with anxiety because of what has gone on.
I've offered to cook meals for her, to clean, to take her out, to shop etc but she won't accept my help, so I'm painted as some bad child.
Hopefully her remaining years will be happy and healthy.
@NJA - another thanks from me, very useful.
It will be left mainly to my sister and myself to look after her. Luckily my sister has time and they get on really well.
In our case it would be mainly me and my wife. But mostly me as they are my parents after all.
My brother - he's estranged. Lives off the social, has loads of free time and also lives in the same village as my parents. But he never goes near, even during Covid he never popped round to see how they were doing.
My sister - lives an hour and a half away. A cynical person may say that's very convenient - although she is 'very grateful' for the help I give my parents! She doesn't work either. 🙂
People always say its a nightmare if there is no POA. I’m not sure its quite as bad as is made out. Social Work and the Courts are usually very keen to find someone sensible and appropriate to take on the role/responsibility
I can assure you that waiting for the courts to work through it while being unable to access funds to pay the household bills etc is no fun. It is not a quick process.
Virtual hugs to all who are going through this. I agree it's hard to keep giving your time to help others, OP and I are similar age and my eldest is his daughters age, so the treadmill of kid responsibilities becoming parent and in law responsibilities can feel never ending, especially if partners or kids also require some support as well.
Don't be afraid to take time and support for yourselves. If your parents need to go somewhere for respite while you get a break, it may get them thinking about things in a different way too.
Another thank you to NJA, especially regarding paying for a funeral plan.
I'd also advise against housing ageing parents in a posh shed, I moved to a larger house so my dad could move in with me for what turned out to be the last 5yrs of his life, despite being totally capable & not needing any sort of care in that time, it was tough & certainly not recommended unless you get on really well with your parents - had echos of bunnyhops experience & accused of various of misdeeds ☹️
We prepaid MIL's plan, as you'll unfortunately need to find the cash for one, as all their assets are frozen until probate is agreed. Took about 8 months to get probate. We still had to fund the wake etc and anything not covered by the funeral plan.
That is if they have enough funds to prepay it - looking at £3k plus.
This is a really useful thread with some very good advice for those who care about their families. Thanks for posting OP and for those that replied. I'm heading rapidly in this direction too and there a couple of points I'd not even thought about highlighted here.
We prepaid MIL’s plan, as you’ll unfortunately need to find the cash for one, as all their assets are frozen until probate is agreed
In England this is just not true, funeral costs can be paid from the estate before probate is granted. I'm just about to apply for probate for my friend, his funeral was in January & paid for by his bank in January.
We moved in to care for my FIL a few years back. My wife gave up a decent job, I continued to work plus helped when home. After a year we admitted defeat, and arranged 24/7 care at his house, funded by savings and equity release. One of the hardest things was the response from the rest of the family (all local to him, we weren't). Because we'd rented our place out to move in, accusations of us being on the make. Got very silly.
Anyway, my dad is now in a similar situation. Was diagnosed with dementia in Jan, ended up in hospital as unable to care for himself properly, now back home with 3 carer visits a day. LPA invoked, attendance allowance applied for (you can do it on their behalf if you have LPA), car sold. Looking into supported housing options as a next step - there are some council-subsidised ones in his village.
They won’t listen to those closest but may listen to exactly the same message from others.
This is very true. His carer is excellent, and we find if we speak to her, she'll mention something and he'll accept it. If we said the same thing, he'd resist.
Hope it works out for you, looking after yourself is just as important.
If you were building something then equipping it with a well-designed, old-person-friendly shower would make sense anyway unless you happen to have such facilities on the ground floor of your house.
Another 'PITA' to add, if you create a standalone 'annex' either within your current property or in its grounds be aware that an additional Council Tax will be payable - standalone, has its own kitchen & bathroom facilities.
@Dickyboy, thanks for the confirmation about the funeral costs. We needed to 'lose' some of MIL's savings so it was the correct thing to do, after she initially refused a plan. It's the 'extras' - e.g. wake, that we had to fund until probate came through.
It took a year to work through the Guardianship application process, involving lawyers and government.
I'm not suggesting for a second that it is fast or painless. I wonder if that is a covid effect / backlog or if they've always been slow? Did the lawyers imply it was always like this and always the OPG holding things up?
Once granted, you are overseen and need to regularly provide accounts for audit by government – regarding both financial and welfare guardian activities.
I actually think that is a good thing. The PoA process seems to leave a massive potential for either wilful or ****less misuse of funds or poor provision of welfare. Just because someone has PoA doesn't mean they use it wisely. Even just knowing someone might be watching is enough to make most people think carefully.
And that’s just the guardianship side. With no PoA, you need to jump through hoops for every provider of every service your relative consumes – health, council, utilities, taxes, driving licenses, tv license, broadband, phone, banks, **** store loyalty cards etc etc etc etc.
But for a lot of stuff you don't actually need guardianship. An intervention order might be sufficient, and for some of that stuff if you can deal electronically with them there's no real need for them to even know who is clicking the mouse, and some of it will sort itself out if you do nothing (like driving license etc). I've dealt with a lot of those people after a death (without even being the next of kin / administrator - just as a favour) and half the people you listed are quite helpful so long as you aren't trying to get cash out them. Obviously a PoA doe have some advantages but everyone here writes you MUST get a PoA ASAP as soon as anyone here even starts a thread like this - and the reality is there is an alternative process if it is needed. It might be better to invest the time and emotion in getting a sensible plan rather than fighting to get a PoA in place because it seems that a PoA could be about making your life easier not making the decisions easier for the elderly person...
s there a country that you think has “got it right”? (Genuine question)No idea. I’ve only had to deal with it in Scotland. Why did you put “got it right” in quotes, out of interest?
I put "got it right" in quotes to show it was a figure of speech and that likely there is a large degree of personal opinion about what "right" would look like, rather than necessarily trying to worry about the fine details of what "right" might mean I was genuinely interested in the countries you implied were doing a much better job of elderly care. I had, perhaps wrongly, inferred that your statement that "It really is a shite state of affairs, how poor the provision of elderly care and support is in this country." [my bold], that you thought some other country(ies) were doing a better job of it. I've not had any direct experience in other countries but anecdotally it seems that in countries which seem to do a better job of looking after the old, it is very often their families that do it. I'm not saying that is good, but this can't be a uniquely British problem?
Thanks for all for wisdom here 🙏 and my thoughts for anyone in similar situations. I’m right in the thick of things at the moment. Thanks for the reminder to take time for yourself and those around you. Feel like I’ve not been a husband/father this week to my two wee girls with one parent at home with early dementia and the other in hospital. Work/Hospital/Home Visit/home to (barely) sleep then rinse and repeat for the last 8 days, just firefighting and not sorting the list of things I need to get my head around.
POAs in place, but a long list of things to sort immediately. How easy is it to action the POA with banks etc? Do they need original copies in the post? Certified copies?
Do they have any care needs? Or are they managing on their own?
Do they need original copies in the post? Certified copies?
You can provide them online now. When you get the LPA, there's instructions on setting up an account. Once done, you can generate a code that's valid for 30 days you give them. Did it today for the DWP.
Poly,
Every case is so different from every other.
They are fine, no health issues, then something like dementia ever so slowly kicks in.
You Don't notice, they get more awkward, more defensive, more isolated.
And ooops it's too late. You have no authority or agreement to anything in their care or finance.
You can always take the hard-nosed view and shrug and leave them to it if they are too stupid and stubborn to allow for help. While they are competent to make decisions, they are allowed to make poor ones (and not planning for a decline in abilities is such a choice). It's their funeral after all.