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Do you really think you’ll convert anyone with such a childish comparison? Incredibly rude.
I don't think TJ is trying to 'convert' anyone. I also don't see anything childish or rude in what he wrote. It's factually correct. Could you explain why you think it's rude?
On the face of it, it's straightforwardly true, I suppose it depends to what extent we should be sensitive to folk whose entire identity is wrapped up in whatever belief system we're currently dismissing.
And to what extent those beliefs have been historically allowed to impinge on the freedoms of the rest of us. Personally, I've not noticed followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster outlawing gay relationships, for example, or exerting undue control over female reproductive health. Which both seem somewhat 'rude' to me.
So, overall, I'm pretty sure that individual followers of various faiths still get a decent amount of deference and courtesy, even if their belief systems are, in many ways, a stain on history.
We don’t need any evidence that god does not exist. There is no evidence of the existence of any gods. Thus can safely conclude there are none
By that logic planets outside the solar system sprang into existence in 1988. I don't doubt your findings but your logic and reasoning is a bit poor
There is a huge difference between being decent to folk as individuals and respecting them and their faith because of what it means to them which I unfailingly do and criticizing the organisations and using logic to pick apart the fallacies they have in their creed
Its is a bit of a childish argument I made - because of its very simplicity. I could have made that argument when I was 12
Theists can also be very rude and not even realise it
I have been told I am a lessor being for not having faith
I have been told I can have no morals without faith
Its is a bit of a childish argument I made – because of its very simplicity. I could have made that argument when I was 12
But one that still holds up, whatever age you are. I agree with you TJ (I won't make a habit of it 😉 You can/should be polite and respectful of strongly held views you don't agree with, if they clearly mean a great deal to someone. Acknowledge the beliefs, but don't offer your opinions unless asked. But if you are asked what you think, you should be honest. Or if you are discussing them on a forum with a range of views. I can't imagine anyone would expect contributors to show deference to any particular belief system on STW? Discuss it? Defend it? Challenge it? Yes to all those. Show deference to it? Nope.
Theists can also be very rude and not even realise it
I have been told I am a lessor being for not having faith
I have been told I can have no morals without faith
What has their behaviour got to do with your behaviour?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Judge not lest ye be judged?
🙂
What has their behaviour got to do with your behaviour?
Unless you're some kind of automaton, the way you interact with another human irl is very much influenced by their behaviour towards you.
Its actually a fair point from Ernie - but I do not treat individuals badly or put them down. Indeed all thru my career because of my dislike of religion I made sure that I was more than fair - as before taking folk in my care to their place of worship in my own time, fighting for them to have futile treatment because their religion needed it etc etc
~Edit - when those two statements were made in the workplace by folk junior to me I just walked away silently. I could have created a huge fuss but I knew that tho those statements were highly offensive that offense was not meant. Both made by nuns whose life experience was very limited and who had been indoctrinated for decades
Unless you’re some kind of automaton
Or you make a point of going beyond knee jerk reactions and don't allow others to dictate your own behaviour.
By that logic planets outside the solar system sprang into existence in 1988.
Well before then by studying and understanding our own solar system there would be considerable evidence that similar systems would exist around other stars in our galaxy and by extension around stars in other galaxies.
Im guessing you are more of a new testament " turn the other cheek" sort of guy Ernie rather than and old testament " and eye for an eye"
🙂
I understand what you are saying Ernie and I agree with it in principle. I am just saying that in reality, it can be hard not to be influenced by someone else's behaviour towards you (positive or negative) in a ftf interaction. That's not to say I will respond in kind if they are rude or confrontational, but I am going to politely draw it to a swift conclusion rather than engaging in conversation which I might otherwise do if they were more reasonable.
On the other hand, if they are polite and engaging, I am far more likely to chat or discuss stuff, even if they hold views I disagree with. To be fair, most JWs fall into the latter category.
I know that one of your favourite sayings TJ is an eye for an eye makes us blind so I know that you understand my point.
Just because someone else behaves in a certain manner doesn't necessarily justify your behaviour.
On the issue of Jehovah's Witnesses maybe I have been extremely lucky but IME exchanges have always been extraordinarily polite and finalised without anyone getting upset about anything.
leaves aren’t green , they reflect green light, or the wavelength of light that we agree to call “green”.
Isn't it more that they absorb light which isn't 'green'? (Is that a different concept? I'm not sure.)
How did Christianity spread to Africa, the Americas?
Missionaries, and not always very nice ones.
By that logic planets outside the solar system sprang into existence in 1988.
We know that we orbit a star, along with other planets. We know there are billions upon billions of other stars in the sky. It would be beyond stupid to assume that we were the only solar system in the universe, even if the likelihood was vanishingly low there would still be shitloads because Big Numbers. Life on other planets is pretty much a certainty, but it will be a really long way away.
Just because we haven’t found any evidence of (a) deity doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Doesn't mean they do either. Grasp those straws, grasp them!
We still don’t know what the larger proportion of the visible universe is even made of.
Don't we?
Saying there isn’t a god because we haven’t discovered one is scientifically illiterate. The only conclusion is ‘It seems unlikely’ but that’s as definitive as you can get.
Saying there isn’t a god because we haven’t discovered one and have little reason to think there is beyond conjecture is a pretty sound scientific theory which, of course, would be revised in light of any new evidence. (Unlike any religion you care to think of.)
How are you getting on with my unicorns?
The point is that the wavelength of light isn’t subjective, just the description.
We still don’t know what the larger proportion of the visible universe is even made of.
Don’t we?
I'm guessing that refers to dark matter (although I might be wrong as that is of course not visible)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
Saying there isn’t a god because we haven’t discovered one is scientifically illiterate.
No it isn't. Scientists spend their time looking for things that they suspect may exist.
Countdown....To Thread Close Down.
10, 9, 8..... Forum will self destruction in....
'Can we have a god thread?'
‘Can we have a god thread?’
There is nothing stopping you starting one. There have been a few before. I'd be surprised if anything new comes out of it or if any minds are changed one way or the other.
Ha, no was just a reference to the dog thread and those topics that always go sideways.
Was my first participation in a religion thread actually. 4/5, would do again (after a bit more reading)
No it isn’t. Scientists spend their time looking for things that they suspect may exist.
This is a fair point. People have searched using tools recognised as scientific for existence of many things from the important (Higgs boson) to the frivolous (Loch Ness Monster). If an almighty force actually existed, proving so with scientific certainty would be just about the most important find of all time. I mean, if you were a JW it would be a shit ton more persuasive in bringing the rest of us round to their way of thinking than knocking on doors on the off chance of being invited in for a cuppa. YOU might not need the scientific proof to believe, but if you were put on earth to convert others what better way to do it?
Weirdly, the world is not awash with scientific bodies carrying out research studies on the matter. I'm struggling to work out why........
It's akin to the flat earthers who, for some reason, don't take the simple step of travelling to the ice wall at the end of the map and bring back some photos. That would end the debate once and for all.
I never see these threads as one side trying to convert the other. They're normally quite interesting and a good old debate. This is the first one I've been in where it has taken a turn from religion itself to an Is there a higher power debate.
Sorry if this offends any of a religious persuasion but, it is patently obvious that all religions are man made. They borrow concepts from each other, have similar frameworks and bigger plotholes than Star Wars films. As for some sort of higher power/powerful being. That's a whole other kettle of fish in my opinion. Is it possible, well yeah, pretty much anything is. Is it probable, with what we currently know, I would have to say no. I'll revisit my opinion should any evidence come to light.
My opinion:
Religion was originally an attempt at explaining a complex world. As society became more complex some men realised it was a good way of gathering wealth and power and control over women and that is how its been used since. In much of europe most folk have seen through it and its very much a minority who believe tho its still used as a control method in some countries including the US
In much of europe most folk have seen through it and its very much a minority who believe
Atheists are not a majority in Europe.
Yet.
Sorry if this offends any of a religious persuasion but, it is patently obvious that all religions are man made.
Indeed.
Is it plausible that there is some sort of god? My own personal feelings aside, sure, it's unlikely but possible.
Is it plausible that man accurately documented such a thing a couple of millennia ago? Not while I've got a hole in my arse. If understanding the nature of god is supposedly out of the reach of man's comprehension then ipso facto any religious text is bunk.
Depends on how you define the religious. If you take church goers as a mark then it certainly is a small minority that go to any house of worship right across europe.
Atheists are not a majority in Europe.
Based on what? census info? in that case I'm religious as I'm down as a Jedi.
Not while I’ve got a hole in my arse.
Is that a challenge?
Religion and proctology appearing in the same thread shouldn't come completely as a shock to many folk.
Based on what?
Interesting Wiki page on it. Religion in the European Union.
Extract:
Atheism and agnosticism have increased among the general population in Europe, with falling church attendance and membership in many countries.[19][20] The countries where the most people reported no religious belief were France (40%), Czech Republic (37%), Sweden (34%), Netherlands (30%), Estonia (29%), Germany (27%), Belgium (27%) and Slovenia (26%).[5] The most religious societies are those in Romania with 1% non-believers and Malta with 2% non-believers. Across the EU, belief was higher among: the elderly, those with strict upbringings, those with the lowest levels of formal education, those leaning towards right-wing politics, and those more concerned with moral and ethical issues in science and technology over risk-benefit analysis.
So even in the most irreligious country in Europe (France surprisingly) only 40% say they are of no faith.
Ernie - now look at those practicing their religion and find its actually a tiny minority
In England folk put CoE down as their religion even if they do not practice it
Its the difference between being culturally religion A and practicing religion A
So even in the most irreligious country in Europe (France surprisingly) only 40% say they are of no faith.
Yeah most people say that they have a spiritual side to them even if they don't follow an organised religion.
From that link a Eurostat's Eurobarometer survey in 2010 showed that 20% of EU citizens don't believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force.
TBH I am surprised it is that small.
Across the EU, belief was higher among: the elderly, those with strict upbringings, those with the lowest levels of formal education, those leaning towards right-wing politics, and those more concerned with moral and ethical issues in science and technology over risk-benefit analysis.
That's amazing.
So belief is highest amongst the senile, the indoctrinated, the thick, the racists and the anti-vaxers.
So belief is highest amongst the senile, the indoctrinated, the thick, the racists and the anti-vaxers.
That will be among 80% of EU citizens then.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1415267/uk-belief-in-god/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/369080/church-of-england-attendance-by-service-uk/
Lie damn lies and statistics
That’s amazing.
So belief is highest amongst the senile, the indoctrinated, the thick, the racists and the anti-vaxers
That's one way of putting it. Perhaps you might like to edit the Wiki page accordingly? 😉
That's Britian and England TJ, you said "Europe".
And you don't trust official EU statistics? You are not a very loyal rejoiner!
It's OK, the Christian church is getting some high quality new converts to bolster the numbers:
https://twitter.com/rustyrockets/status/1832049459036864856
All of european stats are there - its just an example - the difference between folk who say that are of a certain religion, the number who actually believe in the god and the number who actually practice are very differnt
So even in the most irreligious country in Europe (France surprisingly) only 40% say they are of no faith.
It's quite interesting... I wonder how many just tick the closest 'christian' box, as they were baptised and are white skinned, for example.
Can you really call yourself a christian just because you were raised in a pseudo-christian society? I think a lot of it is semantics, or rather, people assuming they are christian just because they celebrate the birth of santa-claus and buy excessive volumes of chocalate in April.
the number who actually believe in the god and the number who actually practice are very differnt
Er, yeah . But that's not what you were saying.
And I was simply pointing out that most Europeans are not atheists.
In England folk put CoE down as their religion even if they do not practice it
England I suspect (I don't know) is something of an outlier here.
England's take on Christianity is mostly a wet lettuce of a faith. As a kid I once asked my mum what religion we were, she replied "Christian"; the only time I've ever set foot inside a church is weddings, funerals and tourism. I know people who call themselves good Christians because they attend Midnight Mass every year. I'm sure we have our properly devout but I'd hazard that for many it's a box-ticking exercise on the census form (which loops back into what I was talking about earlier).
Compare and contrast say, Islam in the UK which is very definitely actively practised. Or Christianity outside of the UK, go have a wander around the "Bible Belt" states of the US, they have 1/3rd scale models of Mary in their front gardens (and also, shotguns).
For all that we may complain about non-secular interference, we have it quite lightly in the grand scheme of things.
That’s one way of putting it. Perhaps you might like to edit the Wiki page accordingly? 😉
I mean, I wasn't suggesting exclusivity. I have friends of faith who I'd consider more intelligent than I am, I was merely commenting on the posted statistic.
That will be among 80% of EU citizens then.
Well. QED? I dunno, I don't have statistics to hand.
Is that what you're asserting, that 80% of EU citizens identify as religious in some form and the other 20% as atheist? Where do the agnostics fit in? You didn't show your working so it's difficult to discuss.
To be honest I'm surprised the multiple gods model hasn't really survived. They would have far more trinkets to sell to the gullible.
It’s OK, the Christian church is getting some high quality new converts to bolster the numbers:
Rapists for Jesus?
https://Twitter.com/coldwarsteve/status/1832361819077308821?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
Ah, so you're a frying pantheist?
You didn’t show your working
I mentioned that apparently 20% don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force so I am assuming that 80% do. I am excluding any don't knows as Eurostat doesn't mention them.
20% v 80% isn't close so even if you wanted to tinkle with the figures I think it is safe to say that most Europeans are not atheists, which was the claim that was being made.
It's a badly phrased question though...it seems to be basically, are you religous or not?
There doesn't seems to be any differentiation between say, agnostics, athiests and anti-theists. And I suspect that, a question that specific, would be lost on most people, who would simply think 'I put a tree and some lights up in December, so I must be a christian'.
It’s a badly phrased question though
Eurostat is a Directorate-General of the European Commission :
"Eurostat's main responsibilities are to provide statistical information to the institutions of the European Union"
I suggest a strongly worded letter highlighting that they are rubbish at their job.
i once invited them in :0(, i thought they were the local charity who had come to pickup a sofa/settee
thankfully, they looked shocked and i asked them if they'd come for the sofa, appologised for the misunderstanding and shut the door
Contrary to Ernies assertion above less than half of all french folk believe in a god, The number of folk who believe in god is a minority and is decreasing every year as the older believers die off and the younger non belivers increase in number
https://www.statista.com/statistics/998058/belief-in-god-france/
This is all of course lies damn lies and statistics and on this question in particular its all about how you ask the question. Ask "what religion you are" and you get a higher number than "do you believe in god"
Is it plausible that there is some sort of god? My own personal feelings aside, sure, it’s unlikely but possible.
This is my position. Some scientists think that we're living in a simulation, I put the possibility of a deity in the same category. I'm fine with the ambiguity, others less so.
Contrary to Ernies assertion above less than half of all french folk believe in a god,
I haven't asserted anything, why do you say that?
The assertion was made by Eurostat, based apparently on their research.
I had a few dates with a Johovah Witness woman many years ago (pre online dating, this was old skool chatting someone up at work!) She was my absolute dream woman. In the end, I just couldn't persuade her to cheat on her husband. Religious reasons eh. Pah.
The radio announced recntly that the number of regular church goers (once a week) was down to 6%. Locally that would suggest around 10 000 people between all the churches, mosques etc. In other words they'd be full every service, they aren't.
Because thats exactly what you did and you extrapolated to a conclusion not supported by the evidence
There is a massive difference between those who answer "protestant" ( for example) and those who believe in god. The first includes all the non believers that are culturally of that religion
Ever heard of "secular jew"? as an example
the simple fact is that actual believers in god are a falling minority
the simple fact is that actual believers in god are a falling minority
Thank God for that ! 😉
Because thats exactly what you did and you extrapolated to a conclusion not supported by the evidence
Now you are just making stuff up as you go along. I did not extrapolate anything. I provided the results of a survey carried out by Eurostat, I specifically pointed out the 20% according to Eurostat "don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force"
It is you who is drawing their own conclusions from that, not me. It wasn't even me who posted the Eurostat link.
It would appear that Europeans are more spiritual than you claimed. And it was you that brought up Europeans btw, I have no idea why - do you think that they are somehow superior to non- Europeans?
Hang on you've all got it wrong. I read something once the gist of it was:
This is a CULT. They send their people out in the world to show the victims how AWFUL the world is.
The leaders are not actually trying to save your soul or convert you, they dopn't actually want you to join and start asking questions. The victims are being manipulated.
They knock on your door, you are rude to them. Or you talk about satan. Or you invite them in to see your Ouija board.
The victims come away with an impression that's what the world is like, full of rude, awful satan worshippers who take glee in doing things (blood transfusions) that the victims have been brainwashed into believing is terrible.
This makes the victims turn inwards even more to the cult and the safe sanctuary it provides.
The victims don't actually like or enjoy knocking on your door, they hate it.
Remember they are victims - be nice to them and they will see the outside world is actually nice and might break out of the cult.
Whereas I provided stats that show believers in god are a falling minority
Jeepers you are good at debate. Are you Socrates reincarnated 🙂
Whereas I provided stats that show.......
I am surprised that you have so little faith in an EU government department TJ. The role of Eurostat is to provide vital and important information to an administration which governs nearly 450 million people, you would expect them to get things vaguely right.
If their claim that 20% of EU citizens “don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force” is wrong and the majority don't then they have got things wildly wrong.
Which would make you wonder what else they got wrong.
Whereas I provided stats that show believers in god are a falling minority
And rest a fallen majority?
Next time i am going to do them a deal, i will listen to one of their bible quotes on he condition they read a quote of my choosing.
Timothy 2:12 will be my first one, i hope its a couple of women.
I will note their responses to each quote.
They send their people out in the world to show the victims how AWFUL the world is.
Their people are already out in the world. My kids went to school with JW children and we got along fine with the parents. I'm sure we've all encountered them at work or social situations without even realising, and found them perfectly normal and agreeable. They don't live in a big compound at the edge of town.
They do outreach because it is a firm requirement of their religion (hence the name). JW HQ certainly used to collect data on the number of hours of door-knocking done by each branch. All evangelicals are supposed to do this (hence the name), but most evangelical churches skip this for the most part because it feels nicer and more comfortable not to have doors shut in their faces, although some members do seem to take pleasure in telling people they're going to hell.
The JWs distribute literature which encourages people to attend their Kingdom Hall meetings, which strictly speaking they don't have to do to meet the quota, so it's not a completely closed cult as such, although it displays a lot of very culty signals when it comes to stuff like disfellowshipping and shunning.
As society became more complex some men realised it was a good way of gathering wealth and power and control over women and that is how its been used since.
Without Christianity we wouldn't have the secular (an invention of French medieval theologists) or democracy human rights, socialism, revolution, feminism, individualism, and science. I think just concentrating on the worst aspects of organised religion while not appreciating that rights that we take for granted were largely, if not wholly, the invention and inspiration of the religious folks of history especially from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment is missing out more than 'some' bits of history
Really? some of that stuff predates christianity and some of that stuff christianity actively opposed
Feminism? How on earth can you say that with a straight face. all religions I know of are misogynistic Christianity certainly with women still treated as second class even now
Who knew the ancient Athenians were Christian?
Feminism? How on earth can you say that with a straight face.
Hildegard of Bingen and Julian of Norwich (a woman confusingly) were both writing proto-feminist texts in the middle ages, and lots of the first-wave feminists of the 19th C; Bushnell, Booth, Willard were all very Christian.
Without Christianity we wouldn’t have the secular (an invention of French medieval theologists) or democracy human rights, socialism, revolution, feminism, individualism, and science.
Well the Greeks weren't Christian but had a democracy
L'Etat laïc in France had nothing to do with the clergy
The Inquistors weren't too worried about human rights and nor are modern day chrisitan churches with several prosecutions for human rights violations
Socialism: many types of socialism, my prefered being socialist humanism
Revolution: eh?! the revolutionaires went around destrying anything too religious in their eyes
Feminism: You're having a laugh now, have you ever read the Bible?
Science: Galileo was tried by the clerics and ended his life under house arrest. He was lucky, Bruno was burned alive
I think you're forgetting that not pandering to the church was not really a possibility until quite recently whatever people really thouhgt.
The radio announced recntly that the number of regular church goers (once a week) was down to 6%. Locally that would suggest around 10 000 people between all the churches, mosques etc. In other words they’d be full every service, they aren’t.
Where on earth do you live where you class "locally" as 17 million people?
Where I live, 6% is about 500 people. We have (that I'm aware of, at least) eleven churches here.
Without Christianity we wouldn’t have the secular
Woah, hang on. You're arguing that in order for the church not to have special privileges or interfere with politics, we first have to have the church?
Wow.
Hildegard of Bingen and Julian of Norwich (a woman confusingly) were both writing proto-feminist texts in the middle ages, and lots of the first-wave feminists of the 19th C; Bushnell, Booth, Willard were all very Christian.
Can you think of any that would also require your other hand to count them on? The fact these women were, I assume, notable outliers does not reinforce your position but rather the opposite. Feminism only existed - and, shamefully, continues to exist today - because of inequality.
I wonder, does history record how their church received their output at the time? I don't recall ever reading how tolerance and acceptance of potentially subversive views were a key feature of life in either the Middle Ages or C19.
I don’t recall ever reading how tolerance and acceptance of potentially subversive views were a key feature of life in either the Middle Ages or C19.
Read more widely then.
"Do your own research."
Well the Greeks weren’t Christian but had a democracy
But the democracy that we enjoy and which Nick is referring to was not handed to us by the ancient Greeks, only the word. In the same way that we don't have to thank the Greeks for inventing "hysterectomies"
The ancient Greeks did not have representative democracy anyway and plenty of primative societies had highly democratic structures - Google "primitive communism" for examples.