How on earth would you actually go about fixing the roads?

God knows but I just changed my car to an SUV that is higher (for constant flooded roads) and has much bigger sidewalls (went for small wheels/high tyres) to better handle potholes as I don;t have much faith in anyone coming up with a solution to it as any solution will take council money.

Focus on public transport/active travel to reduce traffic in the meantime?

In the long term, surely? Walking and cycling cause very little damage to roads (yet another reason why AT saves money in the long term…) and buses presumably cause much less damage per passenger. I suppose you could also argue that by reducing through traffic active neighbourhoods/LTNs also reduce wear and tear on side roads, as well as promoting modal shift.

I guess the short answer would be to concentrate repairs on trunk roads and try and reduce traffic on others. Part of this might be reducing the NSL on unclassified roads as, intuitively, I’d expect higher vehicle speeds to worsen wear and tear but that might not be correct.

Edit - if I was the dictator of a local authority I’d put size and weight restrictions, or at least a punitive pricing escalator on residents’ parking permits, as enormous heavy x7 style ****panzers are going to be bad for the roads too, as well as being environmentally horrendous and a danger to vulnerable road users.

there’s still a finite amount of machinery and operatives who know how to use it properly.

In the short term, yes. In the medium term, if there's money available, companies will hire and train new staff and buy the machinery needed. If you want nice roads, you have to pay for nice roads.

First step would be to tax those who damage the roads most to a) reduce the amount or damage and b) raise the money to pay for them

IIRC damage to roads is in proportion to the square of weight  so tax vehicles on weight.  Obviously this would need to be a ratchet up over time type exercise.   roads , car driving and truck transport are massively subsidised by the general taxpayer.  On road damage trucks are the ones who pay the least in relation to the damage done but the trend towards bigger heavier cars is a part of it

Invest in public transport, insentivise green travel and maintain the infrastructure. Easy really, just need forward thinking, proper design and funds to maintain....

IIRC damage to roads is in proportion to the square of weight so tax vehicles on weight.

Probably easier to tax fuel. Heavier vehicles use more fuel. Taxing fuel is very easy to administer, taxing the actual weight of vehicles is much more difficult.

Need to come at it from several different angles.

There's too much traffic on the roads and an ever increasing amount of it is big heavy SUVs. Electric vehicles are only going to increase the amount of wear and tear the roads get as well. The increase in road wear correlates to a one-fourth power of the weight on the axles: whatever the weight of the axle, you get a times four increase, or a power of four increase, in terms of the road wear. More traffic and heavier traffic = wrecked roads. So start there with ever increasing taxes and fuel duty on heavier vehicles.

Weather - not a huge amount that can be done about that but the UK sees cold damp winters with temperatures hovering around zero - water freezes overnight, thaws in the day and that constant freeze/thaw cycle means water gets into cracks, expands, cracks more, more water gets in and so on.

There's a huge amount of infrastructure under the roads - pipes, cables etc all of which suffers more as traffic increases so it breaks more often so it needs digging up and patching more often. Again, no quick and easy solution to that although reducing the amount of traffic is the main answer.

And finally - totally shoddy work done to the lowest possible cost s nothing gets done properly. Potholed roads need digging up completely, re-levelling, re-sealing and a complete block of new tarmac laid on top but what we get is some bloke turning up with a shovel and some concrete, pouring it in and hoping for the best. The weather situation doesn't help cos tarmac often doesn't set properly or it gets soaked as it's laid.

And every time somewhere needs repair, it should be run through public and active transport options to install wherever possible protected lanes or at least maintain that as an option for later.

Long term I would provide incentives for active travel and public transport.
Even longer term tackle the housing market and pollution so that people don't want to /have to live far from their place of work.
Short term. I do not know.

It is handled better in other countries where teams of crack repairers are constantly out filling cracks with sealer as they appear. It's a relatively cheap and easy/fast process as it's just a liquid sealer that gets poured and it prevents freeze thaw action in the cracks causing them to develop further into potholes.

Local authorities need to have teams constantly on rounds like bin collections and litter picking to carry this out.

In terms of actually repairing what's there, you can't really do much better than they are now even with huge amounts of money. As has been stated there just isn't the availability of surfacing plant, planing equipment, operatives and aggregate quarries to fix what's there in a quick fashion, and closing that many roads in a condensed period causes absolute chaos for motorists.

Considering in my village, some potholes have been “fixed” upwards of 50 times per pothole, I reckon you could make some big manpower savings by doing it properly……

Probably easier to tax fuel. Heavier vehicles use more fuel. Taxing fuel is very easy to administer, taxing the actual weight of vehicles is much more difficult.

except for the growing number of EVs which are a few hundred kilos heavier for the same style of car.

weight should be fairly easy to tax on, cars have a stated weight (which will vary a bit depending on options). We've managed to tax on stated emissions done by a test vehicle on a test, and by list price; so should be fairly easy to implement.

I would start by ensuring utility companies etc properly repair the surface when they dig up the roads. A significant proportion of potholes form where road repairs fail.

Bring back Cobbles?

Id start with forcing utilities companies to replace whole sections of tarmac rather than patching the area where they have dug up, the amount of patches ive seen done by utilities companies that never sit flush with the rest of the road and tend to break up within a year, ive seen whole roads which were relayed by the council and then less than a year later they have been dug up by a sewage company due to an issue and they end up leaving patches everywhere which fail

Taxing people who use the road the most to help pay for the upkeep would work but due to electric vehicles you cant put that tax on fuel so you would have to pay a toll to use the roads, charging per mile which pretty much everyone is against

If any of the above did happen then everyone would end up paying higher prices for everything as the water/gas/electric companies along with hauliers and delivery companies would just pass on the cost so we all end up paying for it even if we dont use the roads as much as everyone else

Maybe if Goverments didnt waste so much money and were run efficently then we would have much more money for these sorts of things

God knows but I just changed my car to an SUV that is higher (for constant flooded roads) and has much bigger sidewalls (went for small wheels/high tyres) to better handle potholes

I'm not sure how much more weight/damage an SUV affects the road by compared to a similar sized car (there's obviously a difference between a Q7 panzer and a Juke type thing), but we are considering a 4x4 estate next time for the ground clearance.

I get the argument about penalising SUV owners for extra weight and damage (if that is correct, I haven't checked) but in semi-rural and rural areas round here, a lot of people have them because there is no public transport, no gritting and very little road maintenance. They don't all get bought to transport Tabitha a mile in the suburbs between Waitrose and violin lessons, despite what we like to think about their owners.

By getting road teams to actually work.

The local council where I work are using Amey contractors to repair the roads.  Nearest to work there is approx 3km of singletrack road with numerous potholes. The yellow sign Amey put up to warn of the road closures advised half would be done in a week from 2nd Feb, the other half would be done in a week after. A month later they have just finished the first half. They’re working at best 4 hours a day, at worst around 3 hours. I wish I was exaggerating! I’d love to know what they’re billing the council. It would’ve been quicker (and probably cheaper) just to redo the whole lot.

The yellow sign Amey put up to warn of the road closures advised half would be done in a week from 2nd Feb, the other half would be done in a week after. A month later they have just finished the first half.

I'm willing to bet that at least some of that is down to them waiting for the council to issue the permit to do the work. Possibly some shit weather issues as well.

And some of it will undoubtedly be a combination of laziness and possibly discovering other issues - like "we can't work here until x has been along to do y" and then the original permit expires and a new one needs issuing....

Councils, cash-strapped as they are, have laid off countless people from the "back room" departments over the last few years. Procurement, finance, legal and so on. The folk that actually do the work issuing permits, tendering the work, paying the bills. So everything downstream of that is screwed.

A big part of it is local councils cheaping out using surface dressing rather than resurfacing the roads properly. This just papers over existing problems so they reoccur.

Also see a lot of damage caused by puddles and running water that don't need to be on the road. Councils should force landowners to maintain their drainage like ditches and culverts. Honestly the council here could save millions in repairs employing one person with a shovel to go around digging channels for water to exit the road. Often see huge lakes on roads right next to empty ditches.

I passed a pothole the other day 8ft long 6ft wide with a 1ft deep cliff at the far end. Busy road and all that had been done was to put a couple of cones in it and leave drivers to queue to get around it. Didn't end up in that state overnight. Must have done significant damage to vehicles before the cones. Wouldn't mind betting it could take a wheel off. Ironically half a mile down the road my sidewall was destroyed by a pothole that looked like nothing by comparison. Visible poor state of repair on street view from last June.

I live on the Somerset Levels, all the Peat barons have made fortunes over the years out of the Black Gold . My dad used to sell Peat by horse and cart on the same roads that now rumble to the sound of massive articulated lorries . The damage these do to the roads keep the council busy resurfacing on a regular basis. If all things were equal the council should be able to levy those companies unfortunately not the case.

God knows but I just changed my car to an SUV that is higher (for constant flooded roads) and has much bigger sidewalls (went for small wheels/high tyres) to better handle potholes

This just perpetuates the problem.... Bigger, heavier cars causing more wear and tear.

Banning large vehicles, or taxing based on emissions and weight would help reduce the amount of stress the roads are under.

"Considering in my village, some potholes have been “fixed” upwards of 50 times per pothole, I reckon you could make some big manpower savings by doing it properly……"

If the Council's contractors "fix" the hole you can guarantee it ain't going to stay fixed. Their business model is doing a half arsed job, that will continue to provide them with work.

If the water board resurfaces a hole they've dug to provide or repair a supply, it stays fixed! they don't want to keep coming out to resurface the road.

Trouble is, road mending is a very dirty business, and no-one wants to tread on the toes of another road surfacer.

An old client of mine made his loot fixing roads and he had the scars to show for it - Gorbals kiss and all...

Probably easier to tax fuel. Heavier vehicles use more fuel.

You seen those Q7, X5 etc e-motors?

There is no point worrying about bigger cars in terms of road wear and tear. According to this study HGVs cause 87% of damage with another 12% by buses and coaches. The 1% caused by cars is covered many times over by existing motoring taxes.

Anecdotally our street was built 50 years ago and as the only heavy traffic it gets is bin worries once a week the surface is still fine.

Our council has the correct approach. of patching potholes but also having a program of fully replacing the surfaces of the worst main roads.

And of course, report the worst potholes. I reported a couple in Glasgow. Fixed within 2 days. Has the additional benefit that if they don't fix them and someone crashes their bike on them there is a better chance of a claim

https://www.fillthathole.org.uk/

There is no point worrying about bigger cars in terms of road wear and rear. According to this study HGVs cause 87% of damage with another 12% by buses and coaches.

I didn't realise it was as much as that but I did know HGVs etc were the biggest road damagers

The 1% caused by cars is covered many times over by existing motoring taxes.

But motoring taxes only cover a small part of the total costs of motoring

I am confused, pot holes occur because water gets into cracks and freezes. Most of the damage around here is due to utilities doing terrible unsealed patch jobs, that and terrible resurfacing. A road local to me had holes in it 3 months after a full resurface, clearly not enough tar in the mix.

How exactly do heavier vehicles accelerate the cracks?

But motoring taxes only cover a small part of the total costs of motoring

And they're not ringfenced for roads either. What is paid in fuel duty / vehicle excise duty etc just goes to Treasury coffers, it's not set aside for road repairs.

A bit of basic regular maintenance would go a long way. There’s one major A road I drive on every day - it was shagged 3 years ago and has just been left to get worse. A good five mile stretch is just falling apart now. Derbyshire Country Council say they’ll fix it when the weather improves - I have no faith this will happen though.

Weather – not a huge amount that can be done about that but the UK sees cold damp winters with temperatures hovering around zero – water freezes overnight..... 

I lived in and been through climates that are much harsher than the UK. How often does it freeze in Essex/South East England? Not very.

And finally – totally shoddy work done to the lowest possible cost s nothing gets done properly

This is the problem. A lack of available money from government to sort the problem. Each fix is just a sticking plaster on a wound. Councils are cash strapped and haven't the money to fix the problem.

Currently in Italy and the roads are the worst in Europe* that I've seen in the last few years. Spain's roads are generally in very good condition.

*excluding the UK.

Agree with a lot of the comments here.

I'm constantly frustrated by a series of blocked drains on a short stretch of A road during my cycle commute. The road in question is constantly being patched and often has standing water, causing cars to brake, causing more damage. It's actually been shut this week for more substantial repairs. All potentially mitigated by regular drain clearing.

Getting utility companies to resurface areas they work on sounds like a good idea, but would add significant cost and delays to an industry where costs are high already. On smaller works, these works are often contestable and carried out by third parties rather than the actual utility company.

Clearly the weight and volume of traffic is having an effect, but I don't see this changing in the near future despite the fact that more people are working from home. In fact is this making things worse, with the people popping out to the shops or lunch by car during the work day?

Hilarious how someone mentions getting an SUV and is lambasted...despite not actually telling us whether it was a 1087kg Seat Arona or a 3 tonne Range Rover.

As some have already mentioned...fix them properly in the first place. An article on the news the other day showed a team from Lincs council filling in potholes. The chap stated 'They're permanent repairs and we expect them to last at least 12 months...' ! (They seldom seem to seal the edge of new tarmac these days, with hot tar.)

Long term I would provide incentives for active travel and public transport

It's a nice thought, but imho, people don't want public transport to be better so that they can use it. They want it to be better so that others use it, leaving the roads less busy for them driving their car.

The car and what it represents to people is intrinsic to so much and I can't see that changing any time soon.

"But motoring taxes only cover a small part of the total costs of motoring"

Saying that doesn't make it true. The main cost is congestion but it is the motorists themselves who suffer this. Other costs like greenhouse gases and accidents are less than the taxes paid.

If HGVs cause all the damage why aren’t motorways like the surface of the moon!? 😀

Id start with forcing utilities companies to replace whole sections of tarmac rather than patching the area where they have dug up

Many years ago in my civil engineering career there was a scheme called SUSI which was supposed to collate proposed roadworks involving the various utilities so they could be scheduled together in such a way as to avoid multiple reinstatements. Do several utilities jobs on a stretch of road together and reinstate properly afterwards. I believe this sensible scheme no longer exists, probably due to privatisation of utilities.

Re. damage caused by weight, as stated above this is down to axle weight (which is why modern, bigger trucks and trailers have more axles than older lighter ones), so much so that in my time designing pavements only heavy vehicles were considered. The impact of cars was considered negligible. I don't know if that is still the case.

Anyway, back to the OP's question, I think I would prioritise the most damaged roads first but that's because I'm a cyclist and want the nice local lanes to have their potholes fixed first. Sod the trunk roads. As for how to fix them. Well it's got to the state now where in many cases the whole pavement needs ripping out down to the sub-base (possibly even including the sub-base) and rebuilding.

Oh and then have a transport system which reduces road freight.

If HGVs cause all the damage why aren’t motorways like the surface of the moon!?

You know those two grooves worn in the inside lane? Guess what creates them.

It’s because of Austerity.

I read somewhere that even if we increase our road maintenance funding to pre-Austerity levels, it’ll take ten years to get back to normal.

Anecdotal from France… resurfacing roads seems to be a pretty quick job. There’s a big thing that scrapes off the old surface and another puts the new surface down. There may be some tamping (I am not an engineer, in case you’re in any doubt) but it’s all over very quickly. I’ve seen similar machines on motorways in the UK but there seem to be dinky versions here. The general understanding is that people are paid well here and taxes augment their cost to employers so there’s every incentive to get things done in the most efficient way possible to keep staff costs down.

"If HGVs cause all the damage why aren’t motorways like the surface of the moon!?"

Because they are built to a higher standard than other roads. Ever wondered why most potholes on motorways are in the near side lane?

We're in the country in Scotland and the roads are shocking and got so much worse the last few years with all the flooding we've had. It's also a big agricultural area so the amount of lorries and big farm machinery on what we're quiet back roads is destroying them. B and C roads are being used like A roads but we're never built to deal with the  volume or weight of traffic .

I've worked for local authorities my whole life and get sick of the bashing they get, but they just haven't got the budgets or manpower. The bulk of all their budgets has to be spent of social care and education to the detriment of everything else. Remember most of the people working for ' the council' also live there, they don't want it to be crap either.

Active travel and better public transport I'm am definitely in favour of,  but it's just not very effective for dispersed rural areas.  I'd rather, and do, ebike the 7/8 mile to the nearest town than be beholden to the infrequent and unreliable bus service we have from the nearest village that is a 2.5mile walk away, it's actually quicker, but most people wouldn't do that.

I have no answers other than the magic money tree. Wasn't Brexshit supposed to have us rolling in extra money 🤣🤣🤣

Elephant in the room > too many cars.

Obviously there's a war against the motorists so the the above won't ever be addressed though.

SUVs and 4x4s ( the type that give a marked increase in death if hit by one vs a medium hatchback) undoubtedly weigh more (as do EVs) definitely make the situation worse - But obviously they make the driver feel much safer.

Much of the public also speed, so this will undoubtedly also increase wear and existing damage.

They are beyond fixing at a national level. IIRC some total repair cost figures previously published were >£8Bn which exceeded the total Highways budget at the time.

Dig them up and plant hedges

Saying that doesn’t make it true. The main cost is congestion but it is the motorists themselves who suffer this. Other costs like greenhouse gases and accidents are less than the taxes paid.

Plus all the damage to buildings from pollution and vibration, plus all the costs  of all the deaths, disabilities and illhealth caused by cars, plus all the costs of enforcing motoring law, plus the value of the public land used for parking etc etc etc,  Depending what you include the average subsidy to each and every car from general taxation is in the region of a thousand or two a year.  Loads of reseach on this

Every death is cost a minimum of a million pounds.

A big part of it is local councils cheaping out using surface dressing rather than resurfacing the roads properly

Disagree with this, problem is massive the under spending on road maintenance has meant that when surface dressing is carried out the roads are already to far deteriorated for it to be of much use. Would you paint your wooden window frames when the wood is rotten? No, you need to carry out the maintenance when they are in good condition, same applies to roads.

The problem with saying that councils should just do preventative maintenance is that they don't have the funding to do it.

If you need £1000 to do a proper job that will last for 10 years, or you can spend £200 to do a 6 month bodge, it would seem obvious to do the proper job, but if you've only got £150 in your bank account and you're not allowed to borrow money, you're going to end up with 3/4 of a bad job just to try to stem the smashed wheel claims...

The figures in this article seem to be relevant:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/mar/01/uk-tax-polluting-suv-green-thinktank-environment

It does seem that cars even big heavy ones are not the main or even important factor in road damage.Previous page had a good link to thisd

Elephant in the room > too many cars.

And they're too heavy and too powerful.

Jack up fuel tax and improve public transport would be a good start.

I am not sure the roads are going to get better.  Britain has peaked.  The empire is gone, we have no one to exploit and make a fast buck out of now.  Those who were busy exploiting other countries are now exploiting their own country.  They get to keep the money and will get round a declining NHS by buying private care,  they will do the same with education.  As for roads… they will just buy bigger SUVs or fly.   We are now on the way down and everything will get worse.

I do think traffic and congestion is a problem and I’d rather see modal shift and spending on infrastructure… but I’m not optimistic about that either…

Jack up fuel tax and improve public transport would be a good start.

Thereby penalising rural residents hugely.

Or, have public transport that goes into the countryside.

Or, invest in a functioning rail network.

Or, have stronger local communities so you don't have to drive everywhere.

The impact of cars was considered negligible. I don’t know if that is still the case.

Pretty much. Most highways owned by either National Highways or your Local Highways Authority are still designed to DMRB and the design criteria only takes into account commercial and goods vehicles. The design traffic in msa (million standard axles) used to determine pavement thicknesses is calculated using the method is CD224 (Google it if you fancy a read) and that only uses numbers of commercial vehicles (CV) or other good vehicles (OGV). Cars don't figure in the equation. Smaller estate roads are slightly different and may have different design criteria

I work in civil engineering and have recently resurfaced railway station platforms & roads:

- Road Planer strips off the old surface to a set level (typically 200-300mm), road plainings can mainly be recycled/sold on.

- Recompact subbase adding, often crushed demolition material/recycled aggregate/fresh aggregate.

- Apply base layer Tarmac with a paver, hot roll, apply binder layer, hot roll and then the final wearing course.

- Thermoplastic paint the road markings back on.

Plenty of plant around for works, the issue is it's really expensive, material & plant hire have shot up with inflation. Local Authorities do not maintain existing infrastructure, just look at how many road grates/gullies are now completely blocked with silts/rubbish/vegetation, this leads to significant standing water in cycle lanes and water flowing down the kerb line. Add to this winter salting, freeze/thaw, snow, heavy loading, steep inclines, poor subbase, subsidence, utility repairs, oil spills from vehicles and skidding and they don't last much past 10/15years (varies significantly depending on vehicle numbers) before needing significant works. The best approach is usually to strip and completely resurface.

We recently resurface some big London station platforms for Network Rail, due to a lack of asset maintenance budget they wanted only half the Platform lengths resurfaced!! total bodge job, NR now have half a knackered train platform and half brand new. We recommended they did half the over all Platform numbers, but in full lengths instead... they didn't listen. Local Authorities are even worse for not listening to the Civils Contractors. Road works are typically priced on a "bill of quantities", meaning the contractor gets paid per unit rate installed (quantity x rate (£)). If Amey were stood around most of the day it's likely at their own cost!

If you need £1000 to do a proper job that will last for 10 years, or you can spend £200 to do a 6 month bodge, it would seem obvious to do the proper job, but if you’ve only got £150 in your bank account and you’re not allowed to borrow money, you’re going to end up with 3/4 of a bad job just to try to stem the smashed wheel claims…

It's called the Boots Theory:

The reason that the rich were so rich was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

It's from the Discworld series of novels by Terry Pratchett but the theory has kind of caught on and been cited in various socio-economic examples.

And absolutely this - councils have been run into the ground the last 10+ years. They've used all their reserves, there's very limited Government top up now, council tax doesn't come close to covering everything, adult social care costs are skyrocketing and roads have really suffered.
Hence they're forced to spend £200 on a subpar repair every 6 months rather than £1000 on a proper job.

Road economics is one of those things that completely flummoxes me. To build roads (in the Westminster model) you get an economist to tell you what economic benefit you get for your expenditure. For some reason if you can put cars through a junction faster people save time and your economic benefit increases so you can ‘invest in roads’.

I’ve yet to see anyone actually evaluate the benefit after said road is open (it usually clogs up with additional traffic and slows down pretty quickly) so we have a bizarre model that has fed constant road building but seemingly without much regard for anything once the ribbon has been cut (like induced demand and road maintenance). The disbenefits of cars moving quickly seems to not be calculated either - you’re looking at an easy million in police time and NHS costs for a road traffic accident (which correlate to speed). So basically we build roads so that we can move quickly for a short time and cost ourselves a fortune when someone inevitably messes up. No wonder the Welsh government has decided to limit road building and go for slower speeds.

Road planers just take off the wearing course, 20-30mm more like it. But 100% in agreement about drainage, we need to totally change how we do that.

the state of the roads is a political choice. other countries have little difficulty maintaining a good road network. This county has chosen to spend its money elsewhere. My clubmate died riding next to me after hitting a pothole. The compensation was more than Surrey Council’s annual pothole budget. Multiples of it.

Sorry, that was a typo, it should read "20-30mm", this can be much deeper if the base & binder need stripping out too.

I’ve yet to see anyone actually evaluate the benefit after said road is open (it usually clogs up with additional traffic and slows down pretty quickly) so we have a bizarre model that has fed constant road building but seemingly without much regard for anything once the ribbon has been cut

Been covered and proven many times over....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox?wprov=sfla1

Self interest kills any gains.

All the extra roads lead ultimately to a Jevons paradox.....

Hover cars, now there's a solution. Rather than wasting money trying to fix our crumbling flooded roads we could be investing in hover car technology 😉

Rather than wasting money trying to fix our crumbling flooded roads we could be investing in hover car technology 😉

God, can you imagine the absolute chaos?! 😂
People are shit enough at driving in 2 dimensions, imagine them trying it in 3!

Hoover cars would be better as they could collect litter as they went.

Disagree with this, problem is massive the under spending on road maintenance has meant that when surface dressing is carried out the roads are already to far deteriorated for it to be of much use. Would you paint your wooden window frames when the wood is rotten? No, you need to carry out the maintenance when they are in good condition, same applies to roads.

Ha, I assume you meant agree since that was exactly my point.

Loads of roads around here full of potholes, uneven with road base collapsing, edges crumbling away and it just gets sprayed with surface dressing over the lot. By next winter it's back to being worse than ever.

I've just walked 2.5 miles along a road and almost every grid was full of sh*t.

Hundreds of years ago we were masters of water and we controlled it and turned it into power.

Today we can't even get the water too go down a grid and into the system that was designed to remove water from the road.

You mean a drain?

TiRed

the state of the roads is a political choice. other countries have little difficulty maintaining a good road network. This county has chosen to spend its money elsewhere. My clubmate died riding next to me after hitting a pothole. The compensation was more than Surrey Council’s annual pothole budget. Multiples of it.

I'm so sorry you had to witness that!

Yes, that sounds awful. I'm sorry to hear that too.

In the short term, yes. In the medium term, if there’s money available, companies will hire and train new staff and buy the machinery needed. If you want nice roads, you have to pay for nice roads.

Taking away those staff and machinery from other people who might have wanted them?

I'm no economist but it seems there is only so much effort/material the human race can muster, so the government would just be outcompeting other consumers and companies to acquire hours and machinery.

Similar would happen if the gov started a massive house building initiative, you're going to struggle to find an electrician/plumber/roofer etc. to fix your house or do your extension. We can train some or allow more skilled immigrants? Well those people now aren't doing whatever thing they'd have been doing otherwise, so maybe now there's fewer hairdressers available. And all of them need tools etc.

Little bloke with a flat cap and hammer.

Today we can’t even get the water too go down a grid and into the system that was designed to remove water from the road.

We are frequently asked not to include certain types of drainage in our designs despite them being the most efficient type for that scenario. The reason - "They require maintenance"

All drainage require maintenance along with everything else to do with a road or pretty much any civil engineering. You can't just fit and forget or it won't operate properly and will eventually lead to bigger problems. As has been said, the problem is that local authorities don't have the money anymore

I'd not fix them. Well, I'd fix a strip wide enough to make it easy to ride a bike in. We don't need to do anything to encourage car use now. Too many people drive too many places too often. Anything that makes it worse is good, and I'd include knackered roads in that.

I had a novel idea this week. An easy way to half the cost of road repair would be to only repair the nearside half of each lane, making it nice and smooth to ride a bike in. Making it easier to ride a bike means more bikes, making it worse to drive a car means less cars. Job jobbed.

I’d not fix them. Well, I’d fix a strip wide enough to make it easy to ride a bike in. We don’t need to do anything to encourage car use now. Too many people drive too many places too often. Anything that makes it worse is good, and I’d include knackered roads in that.

I had a novel idea this week. An easy way to half the cost of road repair would be to only repair the nearside half of each lane, making it nice and smooth to ride a bike in. Making it easier to ride a bike means more bikes, making it worse to drive a car means less cars. Job jobbed.

People drive because the public transportation isn’t convenient, it doesn’t go where people need to go, at the times they need to go there. Unless, of course, you live in a city. If you don’t, you’re phûcked. The villages around here are lucky if they get two buses a day, are even luckier if those buses go where they need to go, at times they need to get there. If I want to go to Bristol, which is about 25 miles away, I have to get a bus to Bath, change onto another bus to Bristol, which is a two hour journey. Ok it’s free for me, or I could catch a train, but say I wanted to go to a concert in Bristol: most finish around 11pm, then you have to get to Temple Meads, which could be a 30-40 minute walk. Or possibly even a hour, unless you understand where the buses go, or are prepared to pay out for a taxi, on top of £40-50 for the gig ticket. The last train east is 10.32pm. Tell me that’s convenient for the general public. It’s almost as bad from London, the last coach is around 10.30pm, the last train from Paddington is 11.32pm. It’s a 25 minute Tube ride from either the Roundhouse or the O2, with gigs finishing around 11 pm, and queues out and for trains of fifteen-twenty minutes. Do the math. Last time I used the train for a gig in London I managed to get onto the train home with 4 minutes to spare. If I’d missed it, it would have meant a 7 hour wait, and £100 for another ticket. And you want people forced out of their cars? Get. A. Life.

I read an article somewhere a few months ago that said the number of claims put in to councils due to pot holes had shot up, yet the money paid out on claims had dropped, as councils just don't have the money anymore.

the number of claims put in to councils due to pot holes had shot up, yet the money paid out on claims had dropped, as councils just don’t have the money anymore.

Payouts don't come from councils, it comes from insurance.

Councils (well, their insurance companies) are very good at fighting claims.

The money for roads needs to be central as anyone from any borough can use roads across the UK.  It also needs to be charged correctly, i.e. add up cost of actually fixing all the roads to a good standard and either divide by those using a car or add to petrol tax to get same amount.

A lot of people may be surprised that it is now costing them £2,000 (or whatever the amount is) a year more to drive their car.

It also needs to be charged correctly, i.e. add up cost of actually fixing all the roads to a good standard and either divide by those using a car or add to petrol tax to get same amount.

Ringfenced taxes are (generally) a very bad idea. Taxation should be reasonably equal (ie rich people proportionally pay more than poor) and should be for the general overall good. You don't ask victims of crime to pay more for the police service - everyone's taxes go towards providing a police service that works for everyone.

Same way that tax on cigarettes is not reserved for lung cancer operations on the NHS, it's general tax.

I agree that fuel duty and taxation on heavy/polluting SUVs should be much higher. I don't agree that those funds should be reserved for road repair. That's exactly where the whole "I pay road tax, I have more right on the roads" nonsense comes from.

My response was directional rather than detailed!  I agree that if tax, or charges if you like,  were used it needs to be carefully done but the roads are more specific than policing or health care, i.e. you don't have to drive but not sure many would 'opt out' of policing or healthcare.

My point is the costs need to be added up and then presented to show all the people who complain about bad roads/want better roads what the true cost is and then any choices and costs to get to better roads would be there to see and put in the list of priorities for spending (which doesn't come from council current budgets).

We have an awful lot of roads. I'm not surprised it's proving hard to keep them maintained. And we have - just about - a government which is committed to building more of them.

I think munrobiker's right in a general sense. We do need to create a world where people are less dependent on cars and chip away at the mentality of entitlement surrounding them. That might mean some sort of car pool sharing system. Better public transport. And a genuine will to make active transport like cycling and walking safer and more attractive.

The problem is that as soon as you suggest any of these, people's knee-jerk reaction is to go into the whole 'my life would be impossible without my car' thing. That's partly because people make endless, entitled choices which mean they have to use a car. Our neighbours, send their kids to school in a neighbouring town/village despite there being perfectly good schools five minutes walk from the front door. They drive half a mile, honestly, to go to the gym. They drive to shop despite the town centre being a ten-minute stroll away. Mostly they need cars because they've chosen to need cars,

When the end of our road was recently blocked off because of a gas leak which necessitated a ten-minute drive to get round - it's a long road - they went frothing mad in a slightly disproportionate way. We were told we were 'okay because we could walk or cycle' by able-bodied people in their 30s, which was revealing.

We've become 'car blind' to the point where many people simply can't imagine living without them and aren't even prepared to consider it. We live with the constant noise of cars, the injuries and deaths caused by road traffic accidents and constantly inhale particulates from exhaust gasses, tyre breakdown and brake pads without giving it a second thought. People who've never smoked die of lung cancer and develop emphysema and asthma is rising steadily among kids and the lack of exercise in people's lives is part of the whole health crisis, but we simply gloss over it on the assumption that at some point in the future, electric vehicles will fix it all.

But on the pot-hole front, no idea. Maybe if everyone drove hulking 4x4s, which seems to be the general trend, then road repair wouldn't matter as much?

When the end of our road was recently blocked off because of a gas leak which necessitated a ten-minute drive to get round – it’s a long road – they went frothing mad in a slightly disproportionate way.

I've seen this scenario play out a number of times, including hysterical claims of "being trapped in our house!!!1!" when the reality was an extra ten minutes driving or, god forbid, walking 🙄

Ha, I assume you meant agree since that was exactly my point.
Loads of roads around here full of potholes, uneven with road base collapsing, edges crumbling away and it just gets sprayed with surface dressing over the lot. By next winter it’s back to being worse than ever.

What i meant was, surface dressing is an excellent way of maintaining the integrity of the road surface, unfortunately due to lack of funding, by the time roads are dressed they are no longer structurally sound, hence my analogy with wooden window frames, doesn't matter how much surface treatment is applied once the structure is shot, it isn't of much use.
I appreciate no one likes surface dressing but done correctly at the right time the cost is more that 10x less per m2 than planing off and resurfacing with fresh asphalt and can then extend the life of a road by 10 years or more.