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Bit of backstory... In december when it snowed the fibreglass lid on our dormer window cracked and as the snow melted it poured in and destroyed our bedroom ceiling. Inusrance company has snaked out of paying for it so we're footing the bill.
Anyway, we've been quoted £2200 as we need scaffolding and a roofer. The roofer has booked the scaffolder who is coming tomorrow.
£2200 is probably a small job by their standards and he's just texted to say he needs a 50% deposit first thing Monday morning so he can go and buy materials. I don't believe for a second he can't afford to go and buy what he needs then get paid afterwards.
Is that normal or is it a classic cowboy tactic?
Obviously I'm asking on here because you know everything. We don't know the bloke as our first recommendations were all booked up so he's coming to us 3rd hand. He's got a crap website and a pretty sparse FB page with zero reviews but apparanetly has been trading for 30 years.
I hate stuff like this. Might be totally fine. Might get ripped off and left with a crap roof. We're gonna be bricking it until it's done and dusted.
Sounds cheap - scaffolders normally sting you for that amount alone!! 🤣🤣
Not unreasonable to pay some sort of deposit. No idea what level is reasonable.
From his perspective if you’ve not signed a contract then he might buy materials and then on Monday you tell Him that actually your mate is gonna do it and he’s left out of pocket.
Hmm. "Canny" is definitely not my middle name, but if that deposit wasn't raised at the point of booking, I'd be tempted to tell him he'll get 100% when it's done to mutual satisfaction.
I always get a deposit to cover the materials for what I do.
I take the risk that someone might not pay, but they can at least cover the materials for their job.
He risks you not paying him so 50% seems fair both sides no?
If he can take credit card, it's not a problem for you as you could get it refunded by the CC company.
That's how we pay the 50% deposit for the solar install.
The roofer has booked the scaffolder
...
he’s just texted
Who is "he" here?
What did his quote say about a deposit?
My roofer is doing a £5500 job and hasn't asked for anything but then he knows that I'll pay the invoice the day he puts it through the door (not saying you won't/don't). That's why he'll come out at few hours notice if I have issues.
Our roof was 10k nothing up front, I offered but he got good credit.
Our local window co just disappeared with client money and COVID loans, apparently the same guys done it 3 times now.
I d offer to pay 100 quid on cc if that's the main to cover whole job.
If the scaffolding is up by Monday when you pay him 50% is that not a gesture of intent that the job will be done?
Look at it from his perspective. He doesn't know you, you might not pay for six months if at all. Or cancel once he's paid for the stuff as another poster pointed out. If you were a regular or a mate it'd be different.
Also, lack of any online presence means nothing. What decent tradesman has time to do all that? And if you're always busy what's the point? I'd be more suspicious of the people with the big flashy website who are always updating their Insta every five minutes. It says to me they're either a big company that won't care about your little job, or some chancers who are trying to 'look professional' as they can't get any work...
Of all the decent trades I know, you'd struggle to find a mobile number online, it's all word of mouth. I know of one young plasterer who has a highly manicured Instagram that looks amazing. And he's rubbish.
I paid in two stages, the first payment when the materials were delivered and the second payment when the job was done. It then had to be redone due to leaks (for free) and since then I've DIYed.
I wouldn't work with someone who was so tight for cash they couldn't advance the cost of materials for an hour. And bear in mind many pros have an account and pay at the end of the month.
I am not a roofer but have been fitting kitchens and bathrooms for 30+ years and am constantly amazed at how un business like trades people and customers are. Details like this should have been agreed in writing long before now. I would view this last minute request with caution.
From experience of doing this this year, do not pay up front.
Any decent tradesman should have credit at his supplier and 30 day terms for payment. If he can't get credit for such a small job there are bigger problems behind the scenes.
We had a builder taking payment up front for materials. He had come highly recommended. Turns out our cash was paying for materials on other jobs, work on ours then stalled as he was skint and we lost £££ which we are now chasing through courts.
The only scenario I would consider is paying his supplier directly for materials to be delivered to your house. That way if he runs off, you at least own the materials and get get another tradesman to fit for you.
I d go and look at his recent jobs, if he s good he won't mind telling u where they are. Some real howler roofs near me, when the faults are outlined u really notice.
Our roofer wasn't the cheapest but it should last 50 years so small price to pay.
Andy, above has the nearest thing I would do to paying up front. Several elderly tradesmen I know ask for that as it keeps them below the VAT threshhold as they supply labour only. Otherwise I would expect anyone in the trade to be able to stand the cost of materials, most of which could go to another job if you changed your mind.
Builders have accounts at builders merchants which wont be due for 30 days!
It seems a bit more of a risk reduction by the builder in you not paying. Will the scaffold be up before you pay the 50%?
I live in a small village so know the builders - they have never asked me for upfront payment but I can imagine it being different if you don’t know each other.
If he can’t get credit for such a small job there are bigger problems behind the scenes.
Maybe it's not can't. Maybe it's won't.
It's a funny thing with tradesmen where they're expected to fully trust an unknown customer but all the emphasis is on whether the customer should trust them.
It does go both ways.
The roofing firm we used asked for 20% up front. This was in their Ts and Cs, clearly stated on their written quote and could be paid on a card.
andybanks last para sums up my thoughts.
Tell roofer the job price is confirmed but you'll meet him at builder's merchant on Monday morning and will pay for the materials at his trade a/c price with invoice in your name; delivery to your address.
That gives you legal title and roofer maintains his margin.
If he rejects that I would infer he's dodgy.
How does roofer maintain his margin if he's passing on his trade discount to the customer?
Maybe it’s not can’t. Maybe it’s won’t.
It’s a funny thing with tradesmen where they’re expected to fully trust an unknown customer but all the emphasis is on whether the customer should trust them.
It does go both ways.
He's asking for half the money before anything has been done, 50% is not a deposit. Thats part payment and a bit much to ask before any work is done imo.
How does roofer maintain his margin if he’s passing on his trade discount to the customer?
Agreed price for the job less materials payment, balance due on completion. Roofer has his margin.
Our last job, the roofer placed the order with the wholesale and we paid the bill in advance and had it shipped to our place. It was about £1500.
Because hes supplying a skill based asset and hes not an actual builders merchant with overheads, wages, gas and electricity to pay for.
I would expect a small add on to cover the cost of the time and fuel required to collect the materials.
You could probably get the materials required delivered anyway, for a small fee.
Thats what I would do. Postpone for a week, get shopping list from roofer. Buy roof light, flashing, silicone, tiles etc and get them in. Let chummy know they're onsite and ready to go.
Massively reduces the risk of never seeing him again.
I asked this a while back as well. Not as much money involved but still a sizable sum to me. Not an amount I could afford to lose. I said I would pay the deposit as soon as the materials arrived on site. True to his word, materials arrived mid week. Only problem was they deliverd the wrong sizes.
I pointed it out to the roofer who didnt believe me until he got to site. Cue a delay of about a month while he sorted it and had the old delivery collected and new stuff delivered. I think he ordered the wrong sizes and the supplier wouldn't refund.
Any way new stuff delivered and deposit payed. He then didn't turn up for another month despite promises to be on site the next day. Turned out all right in the end and he did a good job. There was a little snagging to be done but that was all fixed by him.
Must admit we were getting worried at the no shows but as we had the materials were happy that we could get another in and use them. I really hate dealing with tradesmen like that.
If the scaffolding is up by Monday when you pay him 50% is that not a gesture of intent that the job will be done?
Or a sign of a future visit from an angry scaffolder looking for their money.
I would expect a small add on to cover the cost of the time and fuel required to collect the materials.
Yes, like the discount the merchants give him for being a regular customer. This is a topic for another tread i guess. 'Builder's give tradesman a discount, should he keep it?'
Does seem to be a bit of a bone of contention for a lot of people. And a lot more customers these days are buying all the materials themselves, which as a tradesman myself, I think is great. I'd happily lose the tiny markup on supplies to just turn up to a job and everything I need is already there. No slogging round various suppliers, wear and tear on my vehicle etc. And if the stuff is wrong, well I get to go home early while they order some more 🙂
We had to get some minor roofing repairs when selling our house, only £1600, and no deposit or anything. The guys from the small family firm were super quick turning it around.
On the other hand we also had to get a fair bit of internal damp proof work done for £6500 from a big firm. They wanted £1500 deposit, ****ed us about no end, and we were literally tidying up for them and chasing them out the house as the guy was wanting to move in.
I think sometimes you just hit it lucky and sometimes you don't. We were happy to give a deposit to secure their services, but all it really did was tie us to what seemed to be a company that was over conmitted with work.
jambourgie - I was going to provide a worked example but sandwich has answered your question directed at me.
Never paid anything upfront for any trade.
had an ongoing project for a while. initially was 50% up front at start of phase. remainder on completion of phase
t&m was paid on invoice after work was done. probably as I trusted builder not to shaft me by then, and he that I would pay promptly. so materials we ordered by builder and paid by me at his request, like concrete. some were me direct with manufacturer, presume where he didn't want the risk. so bifolds and windows.
in short, not unusual to pay a large amount up front in my experience but depends on the trade
50% upfront sounds reasonable. It’s only £1,100?
£2,200 including scaffolding? Not £2,200 for the roofer and pay the scaffolder separately?
Just has two chimneys reduced, they asked for 50% upfront to cover materials. Though did a couple of hundred pound follow up fix on a flat roof and was happy to be paid afterwards. Didn't know the guy from adam, but came with a local FB group recommendation.
We had a bit of a back and forth with him last night. He seemed a bit offended when we tried to check his credentials but we've been assured by a friend of a friend that's he's 100% legit.
He explained that he'd paid £1000 for the scaffolding out of his own money.
As people have said, he doesn't know us and we could rip him off. You never think about it from that perspective. We've got the money obviously.
Unfortunately the scaffolder should have arrived 2 hours ago and we're still sitting here wasting a sunny day waiting for them.
I've been sleeping in the living room for nearly 2 months so I'm just knackered and can't wait for my bed. I'll be stressing until it's finished though!
P.s. my van just went into limp mode so I have that to deal with next. Sometimes I feel like I should take all my money out of the bank and just put it on a bonfire.
Of all the decent trades I know, you’d struggle to find a mobile number online, it’s all word of mouth. I know of one young plasterer who has a highly manicured Instagram that looks amazing. And he’s rubbish.
not necessarily - good friend of ours had a big nationwide historic building restoration business, has done some amazing stone and leadworks on all the major UK churches/cathedrals/university's etc. His son was an apprentice in the company, my mate sold up/retired and set his son up doing lead/stone/roof work.
Their insta/FB posts are full on roofporn! The skills of his dad coupled with the social media skills of the son. They are booked in to do our roof later this year.
Inusrance company has snaked out of paying for it
What's the story behind that?
not necessarily – good friend of ours had a big nationwide historic building restoration business, has done some amazing stone and leadworks on all the major UK churches/cathedrals/university’s etc. His son was an apprentice in the company, my mate sold up/retired and set his son up doing lead/stone/roof work.
Their insta/FB posts are full on roofporn! The skills of his dad coupled with the social media skills of the son. They are booked in to do our roof later this year.
Aye, sure. I was just talking generally. But if you're doing heritage work then you can afford to spend a day taking photos, and if you're working on 'major churches' etc then you've got something there that's actually interesting enough to be worth looking at. As opposed to endless photos of the OP's cracked dorma, slipped tiles and loose flashing.
Sometimes I feel like I should take all my money out of the bank and just put it on a bonfire
no need for that with Rishi’s promises. Your money is already gone.
Sorry to hear about your van woes on top of window woes and roofing activity. One day all this will be behind you.
Our scaffolders were prompt, the assembly spread over a couple of weeks. And came in at >£6,000 for the scaffolding alone. Looking forward to seeing it go in the near future. Seems like it’s been there forever but it was only November.
Our roofers were excellent. Cheshire North Roofing.
Looking forward to seeing it go in the near future
🤣
It's important to have hope.
Did your scaffolders turn up?
Yep. I am fully scaffolded. Meeting the roofer in the morning. I was at work when he came to look around and do the quote.
I'm just desperate to be back in a proper bed at this point.
I'm sure it'll all be fine 🤞
Having a £110k extension and extensive renovations done. Started in October and I reckon we’re 75% of the way through. Haven’t paid a penny to the builder yet. In fact I had to ask for an invoice last week! And it’s bang on where it should be. As others have said, would be suspicious of any trades who can’t pull at least 30days’ credit with suppliers… smacks of not being credit and/or trust worthy.
Didn't read all of the above, but something we've done in the past is to buy the materials ourselves and get them delivered to site. Saves on the mark up too.
As others have said, would be suspicious of any trades who can’t pull at least 30days’ credit with suppliers… smacks of not being credit and/or trust worthy.
In general I agree. But there's can't, and there's won't. One only has so much credit, which is used on buying materials for customers who are a known entity. The OP is a completely new customer. You take people as you find them. Perhaps the OP comes across as 'potential ballache'?
As others have said, would be suspicious of any trades who can’t pull at least 30days’ credit with suppliers
Some of us who are small businesses choose not to use credit.
I'm a cash account at the builders merchant. Never had any credit at all.
Just in the same way that a client needs to go out on a limb with a tradesperson, a tradesperson has to go out on a limb with a client.
I've just had to drop 7k on various materials for a big job I'm doing for example. I got that up front.
If I bank rolled my clients project and then for whatever reason it went wrong and they didn't pay me, that would finish me frankly.
This is less of course, but same principle.
Why should trades take all the risk?
There ought to be some sort of safe middle ground for this so both sides have peace of mind.
Just had roof done and veluxes fitted, including triple lift scaffolding rig. Whole job was finished before with the roofers, the velux window guys or the scaffolders asked for a penny. Excellent job all round too, though it took a whlie to get it done: the original roofers quoted "all-in" then just never bothered turning up, so I organised three separate jobs around the same time. Roofers actually receommended I book and pay the scaffolder separately as they'd have had to add VAT. If anyone needs any of these trades around the Marple / Poynton / Stockport area message me and I will happily pass on details of my recommendations
like a few have said, several times I have had trade place the materials order for me, and then I have phoned up to pay the invoice and arrange delivery.
the only trade who didn't do that was the plumber who I then had a bit of a falling out with because he charged me £1k in materials alone to replace a soil stack and first fix a kitchen. His mark up was 20% (apparently, more like 50%). He also charged for his time to go get it and have a 2 hour lunch break. I wont be recommending him to anyone
I prefer to sort all the materials so there is no funny business with big mark ups and I don'tpay expensive day rates for them to drive to shops the other side of town....past wickes and b&q who have the same kit.....
Obviously some trade believe it is their right to supply and charge markup rather than just charge a fair day rate. If you get one of these I'd suggest looking for someone else. The arguement will be the day rate will be more to accomodate the lack of margin on materials, but this is not my experience. Trades charging mark up also tended to have the higher day rate to compound it.
Anyways, tangent - I hope you get your roof sorted I know how stressful it can be living in a semi livable house!!!
Ask the scaffolding boss if hes been / been paid paid by you
Do it in a way that it sounds like you are ensuring he gets paid for the work.
His reply should be, yep xyz has paid me already so we're all good.
If it's a negative, not been paid yet by chummy tjat would set off alarm bells as he's claiming to have bunged them a grand.
Hoping it will be ok
Trust works both ways. The roofer doesn't know you either! If you're going to piss around paying for a relatively small job he may decide to F off to a less arsey client.
I never used to ask for a deposit but a couple of dodgy payers in short succession prompted me to start to ask for 25% up front. Only the clients I had had doubts about demurred.