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22k is about the annual return on a buy-to-let costing 200k.
And there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.
It's all f###ed anyway, seriously....we're a top heavy ageing society, unless we all want to pay more tax (election results suggest not) then health care will get worse from an NHS perspective.
Blame ourselves for not having enough children, blame ourselves for having them later in life, blame the elderly for living too long etc etc.....either way it's f###ed.
At my NHS trust our call volume goes up 5-7% each year, does our budget?...haha, good one, of course not, we're being asked to do more with less each year....it's unsustainable.
Did I mention it's f###ed?...
If the electorate in general don't want to pay more tax and couples continue to have just one or two children then society will have to get used to the idea of paying for health care again or at the vert least some kind of topping up system on top of your central taxation.
Anyway, that's the harsh version of what's happening out there, the other view is to see healthcare as a growth industry, society isn't getting any younger and all these oldies need looking after....set up a private care agency, if you're already a nurse, Dr, paramedic etc moonlight in the private sector....hourly rates are enormous, scared rich old people pay a fortune to be looked after....despite what's been happening with the economy in recent years my earnings have steadily crept up by staying in the NHS for my full time 37.5 hours per week and then using the private sector as a medic in the Police Custody setting, or working doing house calls for out of hours providers....the money is out there.
With regard to changing Dr's contracts, yes there is some crappy stuff going on.....but the push to have GPs in particular working nights and weekends again can't come soon enough....A&E departments are stuffed full of people at the weekend who should be seeing their GP but one isn't available so they trot off to hospital instead!
Your best bet for a good retirement is to have about 4 kids and hope one or more of them do well and can help finance your old age!...buy a cheap flat somewhere too and rent that out to supplement your 'pension'....but don't have it in your name or the ba####ds will make you sell it to pay for your shoddy 10min slot of 'care' that social services have allocated you in the morning and evening....I pity anybody with a good life expectancy these days, thankfully the blokes in my family drop dead at 75 from heart attacks, sounds good to the alternative of a nappy and pureed food until I'm 90.
Have a good day folks!
They might not need to go as far as Aus or the US
"The Scottish Government has confirmed it will not impose a contract on its junior doctors. Announcements are awaited from the Northern Ireland and Wales Governments."
22k is about the annual return on a buy-to-let costing 200k.
And there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.
The source I quoted said returns were roughly 12.4% last year.
22k is about the annual return on a buy-to-let costing 200k
Nope 🙂
The source I quoted said returns were roughly 12.4% last year.
Specialist lender produces report that encourages people to invest in sector that they finance - call me a tad sceptical.
Specialist lender produces report that encourages people to invest in sector that they finance - call me a tad sceptical.
Do you have some alternative figures? (Serious question)
22k is about the annual return on a buy-to-let costing 200k
Nope
The source! The source!
You have to look at it over a long term, one year when they can be capital price spike is wholly unrepresentative of your likely return. [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/buy-to-let/11653653/Buy-to-let-returns-will-fall-by-60pc-in-a-year.html ]This report[/url] does that to an extent and precedes the tax change which will decrease demand further.
EDIT: I would believe a long term average return of 6%, but a good or lucky investor will do better than this - the thing is you only hear the positive stories in the financial press.
will
Speculation
Another source:
1400% in 20 years is roughly 14% per annum, assuming that it's more-or-less compound.
Look at the graph not the article - much lower returns in most years with negative returns in the crisis.
[img] 
[/img]
Again judicious choice of dates, take it back 8 year to 1988 and the result would have been very different. There is no doubt the return has been good though and 6% at the moment is pretty good.
EDIT: The other thing about these house price survey I have never found out how they take into account improvement expenditure.
That leaves out rental income, which my original source suggested made up about half of returns.
Phew! I'm glad I managed to stop this thread wandering off topic 😉
The point is that they chose the best starting date possible, take it back a few years and the returns drop because your "in price" is 50% higher - whatever the rent, that has a huge impact on your IRR - that is what I am illustrating, they is no question residential property has been one of if not the best asset class for some time but the average punter has earned a lot less than 10%.
EDIT: I will resist responding from now on - but if you think doctors have know all patients, imagine what it is like for property financiers.
the point is, the junior doctors are getting royally ****ed and the only possible explanation is that jeremy hunt is either a ****, or has more eyes than brain cells.
/edit - please do keep this on topic and go and debate house prices and RIO elsewhere. starting salaries are shit for junior doctors and under the new contract they're not going to be increased as much by banding and they're going to stay shit for a lot longer.
does the swear filter not work for edits? ****. clearly does, must mean that shit isn't swearing.
The other point (well, question) is what is this going to do to the NHS, and does anyone know / realise / care any more?
(also, sorry for bringing up the point about unproductive income)
The Mrs and I can only conclude that JH is actually attempting to screw up the NHS by any means. Then once the system has fallen apart, people are dying waiting to be triaged in A&E and you can't see your GP without a 10-week wait... then he'll increase the pace of privatisation and **** us all over.
The other point (well, question) is what is this going to do to the NHS, and does anyone know / realise / care any more?
Do you mean in the quality of candidates coming through? It has already started to some degree. Historically Dr's have been some of the countries academic elite.
Why would high achievers want to go in to a work environment where their earning potential is very limited, they get continually bashed by media and government, the goal posts keep changing for the worse etc etc.
The government is already reducing the number of trainee posts and the number of consultants, using cheaper alternatives to deliver clinical care. Trouble is the alternatives coming in are Nurse Specialist, who ironically get paid more than doctors, but they have a very limited knowledge base and scope of practice, so patient care will suffer.
Also at the moment Gorvernment has created another problem. By reducing trainee posts, and changing rules on who can come and work in the UK, there are now massive shortfalls of doctors both in hospital land and GP land. Doctors are getting fed up and leaving the country, or increasing numbers are actually leaving full time permanent jobs and becoming locums.
The NHS is now in a position where Locums are costing a fortune, Salaried GP's can earn more than Partners, shifts on not being filled.
If the governemtn acted to retain staff, rather than making it more attractive to do anything other than work directly for the NHS, then a time bomb would not be about to go off.
To me and my dealing with NHS staff is a bit of a lottery.
I'd say 75% are not interested or really not arsed or want you out of the their way ASAP (I referring to GP's BTW)
BUT 25% are ****ing miracle workers, who are totally and utterly brilliant.
The only problem I've found is you have to get through the 75% crowd before getting to the people who actually make the bloody difference. 😡
@badllama - targets affect a lot of this I think. The expected target for appointment times is less than 10 minutes. Difficult to do an in depth caring and engaged appointment for everyone you see during a day in that situation.
Right so lets get to the bottom of this:
How long are Junior doctors likely to be stuck on the bottom band?
Why shouldn't more of doctors pay be subject to tax, NI and pension? Seems pretty a pretty good deal currently of not having to pay those on 'anti-social' hours time worked.
Realistically what portion of anti-social hours will they typically have to work a week?
I qualified as a doctor (after 6 years at uni) in 2006 and, at current full time working, will be eligible to apply for consultant posts as a cardiologist in 2018. That's 12 years as a "junior" doctor.
However, if you have a heart attack and need someone to unblock your arteries (or your heart stops and you need a temporary pacemaker, etc etc), then I've been able to do that for the last 3 years - we're not totally useless! There are probably less than 300 people in the UK (discounting the cardiology consultants) who have the same skills as me.
At the moment we do pay tax and NI on our full pay (basic + banding), it's just not pensionable.
A typical 1A rota (50% banding, the most common banding in hospital specialties IME) will work around 1/5 of hours outside of the 7am-7pm Mon-Fri "normal working hours" at the moment. That's around 10 hours per week that are anti-social currently.
My understanding is... (IANADr)
How long are Junior doctors likely to be stuck on the bottom band?
Basic salary bands currently increases with experience in the job - part of the changes being suggested is to stop doing this.
This seems like a good basic summary:
[img] 
[/img]
([url= http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england ]source[/url])
But there is a lot more fine print in here: http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Pay%20and%20reward/Pay%20and%20Conditions%20Circular%20MD%2012015.pdf
Realistically what portion of anti-social hours will they typically have to work a week?
Entirely dependent on their role, their shifts, the hospital trust etc.
Overnight on-call shifts happen fairly regularly (once a month) for instance, and they are typically three or more days of 9pm till 10am, often over weekends.
Folk working in A&E will regularly have crappy shifts.
People specialising in dermatology less so.
i might have missed this one, but the training - this is 6ish years of uni, right?
Is this now 6 years of £9K fees? So are student doctors who started after 2012 going to be graduating with something like £90K worth of student loans? 😐
Is there any funding available?
This is in danger of getting back on track so
Pretty sure that most people would recognise that as two degrees. No?
Surely, at some point GrahamS, she MUST have been tempted to go for 3 😆
Someone mentioned vets earlier - a good friend is a vet. She doesn't earn what I'd consider to be a decent wage, and definitely not when conditions are considered. My understanding is it's another long game - get a partnership or the like before the money gets good.
Surely, at some point GrahamS, she MUST have been tempted to go for 3
Well strictly speaking it [i]is[/i] three Bachelors - BSc Medicine then an MB ChB, which is a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of... um... Churgery?!). But it is only two conferred degrees.
More importantly though she finally becomes a consultant next June after 15 odd years. 😀
And she takes a pay hit as a result 😕
Med students currently pay full £9k fees for the first 4 years. The final 1-2 years' fees are paid by the NHS. There are no bursaries or payments available whilst at med school (unlike nursing degrees), apart from the usual hardship funds available to all students.
Med students currently pay full £9k fees for the first 4 years. The final 1-2 years' fees are paid by the NHS. There are no bursaries or payments available whilst at med school (unlike nursing degrees), apart from the usual hardship funds available to all students.
so on that basis, if we assume fees of 36K, accommodation costs of 24K, living costs of 24K, but also that they get summer jobs to help...
the 2018 cohort onwards will be graduating with student debts of something like 70K.
Which means that if they earn less than £60,000ish, they won't even be covering the interest on the loan. So even if they eventually earn something like £80K, they'll be paying that extra 9% tax until their mid-50s when it's written off.
Not a massive draw....
Most medical students won't get summer jobs - typical terms are much longer than other courses (for my final 2 years I had 4 weeks off in summer and a week or two in autumn/Christmas/Easter). Lectures are usually M-F 9-5 as well, so the only time they can have a part time job is in the evenings. I didn't have the time to work after third year and relied on the Bank of Mum and Dad for living expenses (only received a £1k loan per year from SAAS/SLC - I was lucky that my parents could afford to support me).
so on that basis, if we assume fees of 36K, accommodation costs of 24K, living costs of 24K, but also that they get summer jobs to help...The 2018 cohort onward will be graduating with student debts of something like 70K.
It's bad but not that bad.
I didn't graduate that long ago and excluding tuition my debt was about £4.5k/year. I had a summer job but kept that separate as emergency and/or traveling money which never got spent. So that's £4.5k for accommodation, food, booze, books (in roughly that order). So less than £20k in 4 years.
Don't they earn something in the last two years? Most of the medics seemed to move into nicer houses once they'd finished the first 4. Is that not the 'foundation' years in GrahamS' table? Going by that table it's pretty much the same as engineering after graduating (although depending on the industry and sector you may/may not get paid overtime on that) if so.
I didn't, and I don't think things have changed in the last decade, although I'm happy to be corrected. It might just be that those students had to move because their flatmates had all finished their degrees and got a job by that point (plus it gets a bit tiring living in a scummy student flat when you're in your mid twenties)
although I'm happy to be corrected.
Nope, no corrections.
TINAS: The foundation years are your first two years after graduating.
I did wonder if it was that :-pplus it gets a bit tiring living in a scummy student flat when you're in your mid twenties
TINAS: The foundation years are your first two years after graduating.
In that case it's about 2 years behind the upper end of engineering as we start work after getting an MEng. Assuming you'd work across the table at about a 45deg angle (i.e. go up a band each year?).
But then a lot of engineering jobs don't pay overtime or any sort of bonus for anti social hours.
And there isn't a job in every city, to get that sort of money means living in/near London.
Oh, and "Foundation Years" in the table is post graduation (they're usually the first doctors you see when you're first admitted, the ones that take your blood, request your X-rays, make the first diagnosis, start treatment, refer you to specialists, and do your discharge paperwork).
In that case it's about 2 years behind the upper end of engineering as we start work after getting an MEng.
Out of interest, what would the responsibilities of a new graduate in engineering be and what do you think the responsibilities of an F1 are?
Not an argument wither way, I'm genuinely curious. Whilst I have engineer in my job title I'm pretty sure I'm not who you're referring to.
Realistically what portion of anti-social hours will they typically have to work a week?
My wife is currently in what is considered to be a 'nice' hospital to work in.
She does Monday to Friday normal hours, which is roughly 7:30am - 6:00pm.
Wednesdays are On-Call Start 7:30am - 10:30amish the next day. In theory she gets the afternoon off post on-call but rarely happens.
She then does 1 in 4 weekends Saturday 07:30am until Monday 10:30am again with the afternoon off, but that rarely happens.
Some hospitals on-call can be 1-3 weekends, and longer mid week on call commitment.
On-Call isnt sat at home watching TV waiting for a phone call. Its operating all day long, maybe until 1am in the morning. Finish operating get called to see sick patients, maybe get 3 hrs sleep, and then up for ward round, and the daily elective theatre lists.
As part of the working week she is supposed to get 1 free session (4 hrs) for admin/study. This rarely happens as there are extra theatre lists to do.
On a Friday afternoon she is expected to drive across the county up to 100 miles each way to attending formal 'teaching sessions' at her own cost.
She is then also currently revising for her final Royal College Consultant exams. This has lightened our bank account by £4k for the exam fee, plus books at £100 + per book, and just about any free time is taken up by revision.
It's bad but not that bad.I didn't graduate that long ago and excluding tuition my debt was about £4.5k/year. I had a summer job but kept that separate as emergency and/or traveling money which never got spent. So that's £4.5k for accommodation, food, booze, books (in roughly that order). So less than £20k in 4 years.
hmm, still sounds about right under the new loans.... (i must say that 4.5K for living costs seems v low these days, many students spend that on accommodation alone, but let's use it anyway)...
and remember that student loans now accrue interest while you study at RPI + 3%
so... [calculator]
**** me, compound interest is a bitch! If RPI averages 2%, and you take 13.5K in loans for the first 4 yers, and then 4.5K for another 2 years, you'd graduate with a student debt of £77,044. Which of course will be accelerating away from you for at least a decade or so. 😕
the 2018 cohort onwards will be graduating with student debts of something like 70K.Which means that if they earn less than £60,000ish, they won't even be covering the interest on the loan.
Sorry I don't really follow - what do you mean by won't be covering the interest?
Out of interest, what would the responsibilities of a new graduate in engineering be and what do you think the responsibilities of an F1 are?
Depends on the business sector and the industry, in my case it was mostly calculations and checking drawings. For others it's being stuck on a rig in the North Sea.
The career progression is mostly:
2 years Graduate - do the calculations, not much creative thinking required
2-5 years Engineer - you're allowed to have an opinion now
5- 10 Senior Engineer - your allowed to tell the graduates your opinion
10-20 Principal engineer - you actually get to do what most people would consider designing.
20 + Principal consultant - you write the book on how to do stuff.
Most people stop when they find a niche that pays better than a promotion (I've gone into Safety), i.e. you should be able to find a career path for yourself that's financially rewarding even if you don't follow the pyramid up into management.
Should Dr's be paid more than engineers, probably, by a lot, probably not. They're very different jobs though. The biggest difference is no one understands WTF 'engineer' actually is these days. The level of public perception would be the equivalent of believing that Dr's work at Domminos as Dr Otker make's pizzas.
Could be worse, in the past a decent chunk of high performing graduates* went back to uni to do accelerated medical degrees. Add on an extra two years of debt.
*Including my OH.
She is then also currently revising for her final Royal College Consultant exams. This has lightened our bank account by £4k for the exam fee, plus books at £100 + per book, and just about any free time is taken up by revision.
Yep. MrsS was a lead author on a research paper with her supervisor. Mostly written at home in her "free time". Now she is expected to present it at an upcoming conference in the States. She is expected to do this in her own free time AND pay for the flights, hotel, car hire etc out of her own pocket.
Sorry I don't really follow - what do you mean by won't be covering the interest?
Student loans now accrue interest. It depends on your salary, but if you earn above £41K it's RPI +3%.
So if you earn £50K, and RPI is 2% then the balance increases by 5% a p/a. On a 70K loan that'll be £3500.
For someone who earns £50K, repayments will be 9% of everything above £21K, or £2610 a year. So the balance will increase by £890 a year.
If they earn £60K, their repayments will be £3510, so the balance will decrease by £10 a year 😉
Obviously though, in the time it takes someone to get to that 60K level, their balance will have increased substantially from what it was when they graduated....
I should just say that many hospital doctors are not concerned about the hours they work, indeed they are actually concerned that they do now no get enough training hours.
The are getting peed off because the government is continually taking financial reward away from them, and expecting more, whilst making them out to be the bad guys.
FunkyDunc - Memberwhilst making them out to be the bad guys.
I think that's a massive part of it. It's one thing to be shat on; it's another to have to hear over and over about how you deserve to be shat on.
2 years Graduate - do the calculations, not much creative thinking required
On the doctor's side the very first shift* could involve being thrown in to being the primary point of contact for multiple wards in a hospital they barely know, assessing patients, monitoring and prioritising problems, overnight, whilst attending crashes. It doesn't strike me as being a fair comparison.
https://www.medicalcareers.nhs.uk/medical_students/first_week_as_an_f1_doctor.aspx
*for those unlucky few who get an on-call first up.
Basic salary bands currently increases with experience in the job - part of the changes being suggested is to stop doing this.
But surely at your appraisal if you've done good work you get an uplift if not you stay where you are. Reality is most doctors are highly driven individuals so I doubt it would be that hard to show progress. Failing that allow market forces to work and move job.
The responsibility thing is interesting, as a top end engineer if they got something wrong could end up with the deaths of many, many people. Whereas I suspect on the whole a doctor can only kill one person at a time. So who has more responsibility?
MrsS was a lead author on a research paper with her supervisor. Mostly written at home in her "free time". Now she is expected to present it at an upcoming conference in the States. She is expected to do this in her own free time AND pay for the flights, hotel, car hire etc out of her own pocket.
Well sounds like her boss considers there to be no benefit to the NHS for her to be off presenting papers instead of being in the office. Normally private companies only let you present because it is good PR.
On the doctor's side the very first shift* could involve being thrown in to being the primary point of contact for multiple wards in a hospital they barely know, assessing patients, monitoring and prioritising problems, overnight, whilst attending crashes. It doesn't strike me as being a fair comparison.
You said you didn't want an argument, but it's a fair comparison because both jobs require AAA at A-level, 4 years of undergraduate degree to get an MEng, and a lot have an MSc on top of that.
To paraphrase your worst case start, [i]On the engineer's side the very first placement could involve being thrown in to being the primary point of contact for a gas plant in a desert they barely know, whilst the locals are shooting just outside the fence.[/i] That's not made up, a colleague ended up in Tunisia during the uprising and was evacuated after this happened https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Amenas_hostage_crisis
Give me A&E on a Saturday night any week.
Anyway, I'm not saying Dr's are paid too much, they're not, I think they pay is however about right, and that a pay cut or stopping pay-rises is unfair.
Yeah and don't us patients know that doctors are dropped in it as the death stats go up hugely on weekends and when junior doctors first arrive out of Uni. To me this has nothing to do with pay and all to do with poor working practices by the NHS.
There is a good reason why a graduate engineer has a restricted level of responsibility and that's because a bridge or stadium collapse, or a oil rig going up in flames has massive consequences. So as a profession there are checks to stop that happening. The result of which things are checked by experience engineers.
Well sounds like her boss considers there to be no benefit to the NHS for her to be off presenting papers instead of being in the office.
To be able to get signed off through the stages of the training ladder, you have to have had papers published, attended conferences etc etc. If you dont, then you wont get to the next stage.
Doctors get a £600 per year study budget, which goes no where.
To me this has nothing to do with pay and all to do with poor working practices by the NHS.
Ah so now you are blaming the 'people' who work in the NHS. The NHS is constained by its size and funding. Only Government can influence those 2 things. Again the government has worked its magic on you to blame the NHS...
my niece is married to a doctor. he's 33 so is still relatively young. he doesnt work in a hospital nor does he work for a practice. instead he does locum work....basically he goes to work anywhere they need his services be that a hospital, walk in clinic or a GP service.
driving back from london once, his agency guy who gets him the jobs, called him and asked if he fancied doing a four day stint at a walk in clinic in lancaster...accomodation would be paid for and the hourly rate was £97!!
now i know why he does what he does and working at those rates means that he only ever does a maximum of a 4 day week, thus giving him time for his family.
incidentally the lancaster gig was 4 days of 10 hour shifts!!
Yes but you don't have to go abroad to go to a conference.
£600 more than I get and yet I'm expected to keep up to date.
Why so defensive about NHS staff, they aren't all perfect and working practices can always be improved upon and that's the same as everywhere.
But surely at your appraisal if you've done good work you get an uplift if not you stay where you are. Reality is most doctors are highly driven individuals so I doubt it would be that hard to show progress. Failing that allow market forces to work and move job.
Our yearly appraisals have no bearing on how much we are paid. There are no yearly bonuses. The appraisals are there simply to check that we are hitting training targets (e.g. done a certain number of procedures, seen a certain number of symptoms/diagnoses - one of the things I have to get "signed off" is "genitourinary discharge"...). If we don't hit the targets, we are "held back" a year for further training.
Non-consultant/GP junior doctors aren't allowed to work for anyone other than the NHS - i.e. there are no market forces because we are not allowed to work for private companies to the exclusion of the NHS. The GP in the example above will be a fully qualified GP, so therefore not a "junior doctor" as is being discussed at the moment.
I can volunteer to do extra shifts either through my hospital or through a locum agency. The nationally agreed hourly rate for my experience (9 years post graduation, senior registrar, competent to do the procedures listed above) is £32/hr. However, this is over and above the hours that I am contractually obliged to work for the NHS.
There is also a clause in my current contract that says, in "extenuating circumnstances", I can be forced to work extra hours for no extra pay e.g. if someone calls in sick and there's no cover.
Gonzy - thats fine if he wants to be a career temp for the rest of his life. He isnt in a training programme, and will probably never be able to get back on one. So whilst we have the current situation of low training numbers and better conditions abroad for career doctors he will be quids in. If subsequent governments increase training posts, or make it more favourable to stay in the UK, then he will struggle to get work.
You could also say that because he is only doing Locums, he skills/training will not be up to date so patient care will suffer.
As I have already said there is plenty of money to be made as a Locum currently at the minute, as government have reduced the number of training posts, and things are getting that bad that doctors are leaving the profession. Its just a supply and demand thing.
This is about Doctors wanting to do the job as a career.
Dragon - Not being defensive at all, just trying to point out where doctors are coming from. £600 is £600 more than I get too, but I do not have anything like the training bill that my wife has to pay out from out pocket.
Edit: - Sorry it is not my intention to be coming across as defensive
Ah so now you are blaming the 'people' who work in the NHS. The NHS is constained by its size and funding. Only Government can influence those 2 things. Again the government has worked its magic on you to blame the NHS...
Stop being so defensive, no one's blamed the NHS.
I don't think anyone's even said they think Dr's are overpaid.
Perhaps a useful indicator of concern, my wife has recently started doing extra private GP work in Edinburgh. A hassle for travel, uses valuable family and study time (she is always doing another diploma or degree) and not great money by GP standards. She is doing this though as she is so concerned about the way the government are treating the NHS that she feels the need to build up private connections and to get in there before a mad rush if the whole NHS system does go belly up.
Well sounds like her boss considers there to be no benefit to the NHS for her to be off presenting papers instead of being in the office.
That would be her boss, that she authored the paper with, who is also going to the conference and wants her to go too?
Producing research papers, presenting them, getting them published etc is a required part of the training towards becoming a consultant. i.e. it is part of her job.
Unfortunately it is also a part that they often have to do in "free time" and at their own expense.
Normally private companies only let you present because it is good PR.
The poster for it has the Trust and university logos on it - nice and big.
It's good PR.
£600 more than I get and yet I'm expected to keep up to date.
Are you [i]required[/i] to progress through the ranks towards a consultant/management position? Is your progress closely monitored? Do your colleagues need to sign off your competencies? Do you have regular interviews with an educational supervisor? Do you need to attend a set number of training sessions every year? And give some too? Are you regularly examined and certified?
Why so defensive about NHS staff
Because I'm married to one and friends with many more, and I can see how much they are shat on.
Are you required to progress through the ranks towards a consultant/management position? Is your progress closely monitored? Do your colleagues need to sign off your competencies? Do you have regular interviews with an educational supervisor? Do you need to attend a set number of training sessions every year? And give some too? Are you regularly examined and certified?
Yup, same in most branches of engineering.
Re: conferences
If you want a job in a competitive specialty you need to present at international meetings. It is common to have to self fund this.
Professional subscriptions and indemnity are 2k and up a year and most courses, many of which will be self funded 800 quid and up.
Other professions prob have similar but wih six years of fees, reduced pension, proposed pay cuts, ever increasing work intensity medicine is going to struggle to attract the best before long.
Most day to day ward work is done by 'juniors'. As are many clinics and operating lists.
Still a good career and we are lucky but pay is awful. I got paid a better salary in 2002 first year post grad than out juniors do now. Admittedly I also worked 75hours/week for it.
Yup, same in most branches of engineering.
Not in Software Engineering! 😀
(I accept that's not [i]real[/i] engineering though)
That would be her boss, that she authored the paper with, who is also going to the conference and wants her to go too?
Well if there is only money for one then that's it. I've been on both the winning and loosing end of this in the past where I've been to conferences as the only rep of an institution or missed out for someone else to go.
Unfortunately it is also a part that they often have to do in "free time"
Outside of working in a Uni I suspect this is the case for the majority of industries.
Look being a doctor is a hard job and always will be. And of course when conditions change people moan and grumble it's human nature. However, I'm struggling to see through the fog and haze where the really problems with this change of contract come from.
FunkyDunc - i've had the chat with him with regards to what his plans are long term. he knows that working as a locum is a license to print money for him...he earns in 3 months, the same amount it takes me 12 months to earn!!
his reasoning is that he enjoys meeting different patients from different walks of life and being the "new set of eyes" looking into their medical illnesses etc.
he keeps all of his training and qualifications up to date.
working a 4 day week has its advantages for him as it means he can spend more time at home or studying (when needed).
but there has to come a point when he realises that working away from home for 4 days and staying there isnt giving him the quality time he would get if he was attached to a GP practice...he's not short of offers in this respect. his daughter turned 1 yesterday and i doubt he would want to spend any more time away from her...i give him another year before he settles into a role at a local GP practice.
Well if there is only money for one then that's it.
Nope. There is [i]no[/i] money. He has to pay for himself too.
Outside of working in a Uni I suspect this is the case for the majority of industries.
Bollocks. What other industries [i]require[/i] you to produce journal-quality research for your company in your spare time without being paid?
And then expect you to promote your company and research, in your own time, with your own money?
At the same time as holding down a safety-critical full time job which changes to a different office every six months?
Certainly not my industry.
I'm struggling to see through the fog and haze where the really problems with this change of contract come from.
Would you be upset if someone told you to work more, for 30% cut in pay, and said you were unreasonable for protesting?
How about if they had a monopoly and were the only employer in the country?
Bollocks. What other industries require you to produce journal-quality research for your company in your spare time without being paid?
Seriously?
Engineering (just not apparently software 😛 )
Do you actually believe that medicine is the only career with these requirements?
It's even written into my contract that anything i produce in my own time is owned by the company, even if i asked them for funding and they declined as they didn't deem it worthwhile.
The proposed changes arent right/fair. But equally I've not had a pay rise since late 2013.
Yup, same in most branches of engineering.
Not in Telecoms, not presented a paper (nor written one) in years. Only did them in the early years as it looked good on the CV, now can't be arsed. Even stopped bothering with Patents as I have enough for the CV and they're a load of extra hassle...
Have we talked about the cost of indemnity yet? 😈
Do you actually believe that medicine is the only career with these requirements?
No, but I believe it's not [i]"the case for the majority of industries"[/i].
But I'll ask the Food Industry guy behind the counter at the cafe just to make sure 😆
It's even written into my contract that anything i produce in my own time is owned by the company
Same here. But I'm not then required by the company to do academic research for them in my own time - because I'd want paid for that!
However, I'm struggling to see through the fog and haze where the really problems with this change of contract come from.
Because when my wife signed her contract 7 years ago there were certain T&C's. The pay and career progression that she signed up for is not now what she is getting, and will get considerably worse.
Again as said earlier. If you want to attract acdemic elite to a profession, you can not treat them like shit and pay them salaries that are not competitive.
If you do go down that route you attract mediocre candidates and get mediocre results.
I earn just over the average UK salary, so I guess I am Mr Average in that way. I could not even begin to work the hours and retain the knowledge that my wife has to.
If you do go down that route you attract mediocre candidates and get mediocre results.
The Tories wish to recast the NHS in their own image!
But I'll ask the Food Industry guy behind the counter at the cafe just to make sure
I didn't mean that, I meant in comparable type roles in other industries, of course the guy in the supermarket doesn't. However, I'm talking consultancy type jobs filled primarily by people who went to top Uni's.
Based on a look around within 2 years you'll be on £30k and possibly more for overtime, is that really that bad pay for only 2 years experience? I don't see how career progression changes with the new contract. The only significant change is around the hours.
Based on a look around within 2 years you'll be on £30k and possibly more for overtime, is that really that bad pay for only 2 years experience?
It's okay but not fantastic - as someone pointed out earlier [url= http://www.****/news/article-2905829/Aldi-s-42k-starting-salary-graduates-City-banks-offer-50k-student-job-hunters.html ]graduates training as managers at Aldi start on up to £42k[/url]!
But the point isn't the money (depsite the thread title) it is that they are being de-valued and the ones doing the toughest jobs with the most unsociable hours are now being asked to do even more for a lot less money.
In short the government has realised that the only way they can get this ridiculous "24/7 NHS" idea to work is if they pay everyone a lot less and stop rewarding those prepared to work the unsociable hours.
It's easy to pick an outlier in Aldi (plus I bet there are some hidden downsides in the small print), try however Tesco, JL, Boots, McDs, Co-op and M&S who all offer a more realistic region of £21 - 27k.
I don't think the public do see 24/7 NHS as a ridiculous idea, people get ill 24/7, and people under the current system are having to take leave for straight forward GP visits
Seriously?Engineering (just not apparently software
I've been working 20 years in engineering and never been required to produce an academic paper. If I had and had to present it at a conference I'd be expecting it to be paid for.
Dragon are you seriously suggesting that someone with the academic ability to run a McDonalds could make a doctor too? Doctors are the equivalent of the MD/CEO of McDonalds. Generally if you don't go to med school you become a lawyer, city bod, accountant etc. Those types of job generally pay £250k +
In terms of 24/7 service, I think all would agree it's a good thing, but how do you want to finance it? My wife isn't bothered about working at the weekend so long as she gets paid for it, and gets time off in the week. But that's not what is currently being offered.
Doctors are the equivalent of the MD/CEO of McDonalds.
You reckon?
How many CEOs of Billion $ multi-nationals are there and how many GPs.....
Dragon are you seriously suggesting that someone with the academic ability to run a McDonalds could make a doctor too? Doctors are the equivalent of the MD/CEO of McDonalds.
Err, no. Don't you know any doctors? Most are as useless as anyone else.
dragon - MemberI don't think the public do see 24/7 NHS as a ridiculous idea
It isn't. That's why we already have a 24/7 NHS. But routine things should run on routine timings. Complaining that you have to take time off when you want to work, and insisting that other people should have to work when you don't want to, for no other reason than your convenience is just selfish frankly.
If you want to speak to me at my work, you need to do it while I'm open. Life is so hard.
But hey, the NHS already does that too, with many surgeries providing early and late openings, weekends, etc, not to mention minor injuries clinics and the like.
dragon - Member
I don't think the public do see 24/7 NHS as a ridiculous idea
Of course they don't, but they're not too keen on paying for it.
Or would you welcome a massive hike in income tax just so you can get your ingrowing toenail seen to at 3am?
Even if we could afford it (which we can't) most hospitals and surgeries are short staffed on the current opening times. Where are all the extra doctors, surgeons, nurses, technicians, porters, social workers, etc etc going to come from?
people get ill 24/7
They do, and those people can use the existing 24/7 cover like NHS24, walk-in centres, minor injuries clinics, out-of-hours GP on-call, evening and weekend GP clinics, and for really serious stuff, A&E.
I always fail to understand. How is any of this a surprise ??
The Tories are completely 100% committed to destroying the NHS.
Hunt's even written books about it FFS. It's the last bit of socialism left and they want it gone ASAP & it's all going to plan nicely
Doctor's striking or leaving is just grist for their mill.
PFI, Agency Staff and £11.3 Billion vapourware systems.. The NHS has no chance....