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My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?
STW at its finest 🙂
6) There is a huge huge recruitment crisis in General Practice, and for me, and a lot of my cohort in our last 10 years of practice (30 Doctoring down, hopefully 7-8 to go), the Government's behaviour, attitude to pensions and to "the 7 day NHS" is encouraging us to leave earlier than we would have, and not to consider working reduced hours etc.
From your perspective, why is that? The new conditions? More 'glamorous' work elsewhere? Too much effort (certainly would be for me)? Leaving for overseas work (I know of 2 friends/relatives that have done this)?
It isn't enough.
I'm sure some people look at the wage at the higher end of the scale and think that is what 'all' doctors earn.
But to me, they are worth it.
On the other hand, if we look at the finance industry and what they earn, and contribute to society... I think that anyone who studies any form of finance, should work/earn the same as junior docs....
Doctors gave me back my leg. How do we help?
I bet they only stole it for a prank.
The problem with solving the shortage of doctors is that you are effectively arguing for people who get paid above average to be paid more. It's a hard sell.
Corbyn can get to lead the labour party on the back of scrapping benfits cuts and tax credits; grass roots funding for the NHS etc.
But you won't hear a single politician say the way to solve the GP crisis is to give GPs more money and better conditions. But that is probably what it would take in the long to attract more trainees and retain existing staff.
People have got to remeber that to become a doctor is bloody hard. You are competing for undergrads who can become anything they want, literally. Right now why you you chose to be a doctor for the NHS?
I come from a family of doctors but unfortunately I decided to go into Engineering. Don't feel sorry for Doctors. Sure life as a Junior Doctor is hard and not particularly well paid, but over their careers they will do very very well for themselves. My uncles are defiantly not short of a bob or two.
It's like any profession, some will be doing better than others. In Engineering some Engineers get paid a pittance, some own and run multi-billion dollar global companies.
My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?STW at its finest
You must be a lazy junior doctor and your other half a crap teacher then 😉
I jest of course..
fair enough if thats your exp. I remember when my brother was a junior doctor the tales of hell he would comeout with relating to A&E on a sunday morning at 3am were eye opening.
At roughly the same time my mum returned to the teaching profession, can't ever remember her having to do 60 hour weeks, she had long holidays, never had to work at the weekend and was never threatened by drunken nutters looking for a scrap in the early hours.
And heres me thinking she was paid less as well!
edit...have we worked out how much they get paid yet. 22k starting salary is shocking if I've read that link correctly.
But you won't hear a single politician say the way to solve the GP crisis is to give GPs more money and better conditions. But that is probably what it would take in the long to attract more trainees and retain existing staff.
My theory on the attracting trainees bit is that the people who are pushed towards medicine in school are the sort of people for whom general practice is deeply unappealing.
Overwhelmingly most junior doctors I know are happiest when there's work to do, an intervention to be made a patient load to be managed and so on. They're very pro-active people.
The people* who are happiest getting to know long term patients, dealing with minor complaints and passing more serious conditions on to someone else have a very different mindset to what I'd say is typical.
*and out of probably 40 people I know making the choice this year or last I can think of three who are choosing GP.
The problem with solving the shortage of doctors is that you are effectively arguing for people who get paid above average to be paid more. It's a hard sell.
Yep. It's also partly why we struggle with publicly complaining about this in an organised manner. How can we as doctors, publicly whinge about pay when we earn more than the majority of the population? Yep, we probably could have done better paid jobs with our grades and results, yep this new contract is unfair and simply rude, yes we're undervalued compared to other countries but it's going to be hard to convince the public we deserve more without looking greedy.
Doctor wages in the UK are criminal for the training, level of responsibility and hours they work. As a comparator, in the US most of my Physician friends started straight out of medical school on around $140k a year, and the vast majority of them are now earning in excess of $350k a year.
22k isn't that bad a starting wage for someone with an undergraduate degree though. Finding a job in medicine is a lot easier than some other professions but there are a significant number of numpty doctors (and medical students) out there.
22k isn't that bad a starting wage for someone with an undergraduate degree though.
Two undergraduate degrees!
Three years BSc (Hons) Medicine, followed by another three years to get MB ChB.
when she was fresh out of medical school my Mrs wasn't far off minimum wage by the time you looked at her hours worked, MDUS memberships and insurance type stuff. She had to undertake audits (in her own time) of her working hours to prove that the trust were not breaching WTD and, when they were, she had to (in her own time) change the audit to make them look squeaky clean. Earning a decent salary now but it took about 12 years of studying and junior jobs to get there.
Not read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned but the way post grad training is managed now results in a pretty crappy lifestyle for newly qualified doctors. 6 months contracts then moving across the country for the next one is the norm. Fine if you regard this as an extension of your studies but rubbish if you are actually trying to settle down with family and other grown up stuff.
[b]Lemonysam[/b]
The job has changed, I spend tons of time doing acute medicine, diagnosing cancers, managing Diabetes to a better standard than the Hospital, Working in close collaboration with the Cardiologists. We can do or organise almost every outpatient test. I'd love to see more trivial stuff every now and then! By the time I send someone to a Consultant, we have investigated them to well beyond junior Dr levels.
But junior Drs don't know this. I go and spend days observing how my hospital colleagues work. The other way around? - never happened...
But your point about personality is well taken. For my job you have to like people, like knowing them, like acute medicine, and be happy managing and living with risk. That doesn't apply to many of the current intake.
22k isn't that bad a starting wage for someone with an undergraduate degree though.
It's a false equivalence to just call it an undergraduate degree though. Discounting the fact that they're effectively doing a couple of years of work placement as they go through Med School the degree is as long as doing a normal undergraduate degree, a year in industry and a masters. With a vocational degree and relevant masters you'd be unlucky not to earn more than that in most industries.
But junior Drs don't know this. I go and spend days observing how my hospital colleagues work. The other way around? - never happened.
Good point, sorry, I meant to include a paragraph about how GP placements at F1/F2 also show them the "worst" of GP but very little of the more "interesting" stuff but I forgot. This is, I suspect, in part because resources are so stretched that it's hard to set aside the time to give a more rounded experience.
This is a really interesting discussion - thanks all.
Anyone ever met a poor doctor? Seriously big salaries, good pensions and virtual total job security, most people would love those. Of course you earn less at the start every profession does.
As for comparing pay to the US well campaign for a privatised health service then. I'm sure your pay would go up then.
Seriously big salaries, good pensions and virtual total job security, most people would love those.
You've not read past the title then?
Two undergraduate degrees!
its one confered undergraduate degree (unless you go to St Andrews then you do a pre-clinical degree then go on to do a MB ChB but thats because you have to go to a different university)
It's a false equivalence to just call it an undergraduate degree though. Discounting the fact that they're effectively doing a couple of years of work placement as they go through Med School the degree is as long as doing a normal undergraduate degree, a year in industry and a masters
other coures have placements too that are longer than those without. It is still a bachelors degree.
It also doesn't give them the right to the title either as its a job description not a salutaion 😛
its an undergrasuate degree
its an undergrasuate degree
I didn't dispute that, I just pointed out that it was a silly argument.
googled randomly from the web....
What is the Average Graduate Starting Salary in the UK?The answer to this depends on whether you want the average amount that graduates are making 6 months after University (regardless of if they have a graduate job) or if you want the the average starting salary offered by graduate recruiters.
According to HECSU’s What Do Graduates Do? Report, the average salary for UK graduates in full-time employment six months after graduation range between £18,000-£24,000.
However, The Association of Graduate Recruiters (AGR) and HighFliers.co.uk published a report that stated the average starting salary was £29,000, while TheBigChoice.com has this a little lower at £26,500.
If we all agree that a junior doc probably has to work longer, more unsociable hours, the degree takes longer to achieve, and theres probably more responsibility than your normal grad job, then the starting salary starts to look a bit pish.
Where you really want to work as a graduate is Aldi...42k starting salary and a shiny Audi a4 first day in job...wtf?
I didn't dispute that, I just pointed out that it was a silly argument.
its not a silly argument as I am basing their starting pay with other jobs that require an undergraduate degree.
Anyone ever met a poor doctor?
What do you mean by this?
Do you mean "a doctor without much money"? A doctor with no time to see family? A doctor on the verge of suicide through stress (or, unfortunately in my own professional life "a doctor who committed suicide through stress")? A doctor who's stopped caring?
I think you probably mean the first, but should be aware of the others...
DrP
We do have medical students with us for quite a lot of the year, but by the time they reach us they have been subject to a culture of contempt on the part of many hospital Drs.
And I think that the current admissions criteria are leading to well motivated and intelligent medical students, but not always ones who really like people.
They want to Meet, Treat and Street the patients.
I've picked up two people with Pulmonary Emboli, someone with nephrotic syndrome and some other stuff in the last 2 weeks, but my favourite moment was receiving a bit of the birthday cake from a 90 year old's party.
its one confered undergraduate degree
As above, my wife did 3 years at one uni to get her BSc (Hons) Medicine, followed by another 3 years at another uni (+hospital) to get her MBChB.
Pretty sure that most people would recognise that as two degrees. No?
My theory on the attracting trainees bit is that the people who are pushed towards medicine in school are the sort of people for whom general practice is deeply unappealing.
I think that's a very good point, but I don't have the first idea how you'd address it.
I think that's a very good point, but I don't have the first idea how you'd address it.
Nor have I. I don't think the entry requirements are necessarily a good starting point nor is the interview process* designed to scope out that kind of person. I don't think the focus on science helps, obviously a biology background helps for some things but from what my OH, who is a graduate entry with a biochem degree, found - it really wasn't that necessary. Several of her fellow fast-track medics were from arts backgrounds and two out of the three people I mentioned before have arts degrees.
This might be lazy stereotyping on my part though.
*I have had some experience of this bit, having gone through it then declined my offers and done something else instead. This was a decade ago though so it may have changed.
This is the basic starting salary though isn't it?
It does not take into account "Ash Cash" for instance? And all the other bits of paper work they can put a signature too and get paid?
No one forces them to be a doctor, their choice. So the money is crap for a year or two at least you know you on the up. Most mere mortals can work 20 years plus on that salary and think it okish.
Don't like it don't do it no one holds gun to your head FFS
And I think that the current admissions criteria are leading to well motivated and intelligent medical students
depends on what university. some of the ones I get to teach I wouldn't trust them to fill out a preciption correctly let alone diagnose a cut lol
As above, my wife did 3 years at one uni to get her BSc (Hons) Medicine, followed by another 3 years at another uni (+hospital) to get her MBChB.Pretty sure that most people would recognise that as two degrees.
if she graduated twice then yes thats two degrees - but only because of the way the school works. Glasgow, Edinburgh and Fundee just do the one course but St Andrews is like that. I'm based my comment on the full MB ChB.
Most mere mortals can work 20 years plus on that salary and think it okish.
Can they? Average UK salary is £26,500
I doubt there are many folk with multiple degrees working for 20 years on four grand less than that.
Don't like it don't do it no one holds gun to your head FFS
That's the problem - we [i]need[/i] people to do it - if they don't then the whole thing falls apart and expensive private healthcare steps in.
(Some would say that is the current government's intention)
It does not take into account "Ash Cash" for instance? And all the other bits of paper work they can put a signature too and get paid?
You realise that for Ash Cash they are taking medical and legal responsibility for the verifying the cause of death?
It's a bit beyond just being paid for a signature.
The starting salary is not great (though the basic figure is misleading with the extras) and there's no doubt that the hours are hard. But the job security and career progression is something few others have these days. I know two doctors, one only works part time by choice and runs a hobby business the rest of the time, the other has brought up a large family including putting them through private education (partially). They aren't struggling, neither of them has ever been short of work. For comparison, I know a lot of scientists and almost all of them have had a much harder time of things. That's a choice I really wouldn't recommend these days.
Ash cash might *might* just cover some of a doctors extra expenses such as exam fees, indemnity, stethoscopes, courses etc.
For comparison, I know a lot of scientists and almost all of them have had a much harder time of things.
:waves:
How much do junior doctors get paid, not enough. It is however illuminati e that medical school remains hugely oversubscribed and I don't think it's because the students are totally altruistic
I think the key issue here [b]isn't [/b]that doctors get paid X amount, and that X amount is 'a lot'.
It's the fact they DID get paid X, and now are getting paid 'less than X for more work', which however way you look at it, isn't very appealing.
This makes the individuals in question feel threatened, under valued and not respected. It then makes the whole profession feel that. Which in turn will cause the profession to dissipate.
Then you'll be left with no doctors at all.
And THEN the big issue will be... WHO WILL YOU ALL MOAN AND WINGE ABOUT THEN? Bin men "being terrible at collecting your bins - i could do it much better"? Ticket collectors on the train - "they don't know how to collect tickets - I saw it on the internet and could do much better..."?
etc etc
DrP (first part in seriousness...second part in jest..)
Bin men "being terrible at collecting your bins - i could do it much better
I wouldn't leave the bins in front of people's drives so they can't drive in like ours do lol
As do ours, actually!
It's further to put it in front of the drive, than it is to leave it by the side.
I think they hate me.
DrP
I really think people saying things like [i]"ever met a poor doctor"[/i] and [i]"they aren't struggling"[/i] are massively missing the point.
This isn't about junior doctors asking for more money - it is about doctors, many of whom are already stretched to the limits of what they can do, asking that they [i]don't[/i] receive large pay cuts and even more hours.
And perhaps even more importantly, asking that the government and press stop misrepresenting them as lazy, incompetent or greedy.
My GP wife crashed the car into a neighbours car after reversing round a wheelie bin left at the end of the drive.
I have no idea if there is a point to my post, but seems topical to link the bin men point to the doctor point. I think
It is however illuminati e that medical school remains hugely oversubscribed
Has jivehoneyjive been informed of this? 😆
ever met a poor doctor
Would it make you feel better if they were poor?
Salaries are usually defined by the level of risk that someone is responsible for. Doctors have the ability to save lives and, if they get it wrong, ruin or take lives. On that basis they deserve a good salary.
Most people probably do want their Doctor to be relatively bright.
These days most bright people can find less stressful ways to earn more money without every politician, forumite and Daily Mail reader having a go at them, and without the moronic government initiatives and reorganisations we deal with on a yearly basis.
Those who think that the current pay is enough may be correct in emotional terms, but the market simply doesn't worklike that. Reducing pay of a workforce which is already inadequate, and can go and do other things, is dumb,
It's very simple really, but some people posting above will be whinging when the NHS really goes downhill, as it will, over the next few years. And by then it will take 10 years to undo the damage.
That does seem to be not much. My first job as a graduate Engineer with a large multinational on their graduate training scheme was the current equivalent of £26,848.57 (accounting for inflation over the last 20+ years).
I suspect junior doctor's wages haven't kept pace with inflation and so used to be better.
university pay scale for research
grade 5 undergraduate 20-27k
grade 6 PhD just qualified 27-33K
grade 7 PhD with experience 33-40K (lecturer pay point)
grade 8 senior lecturer 40-51K
not many people get a lectureship
surely the answer is not as much as they deserve for the responsibilities, but they are not doing it to be on the same money/hours in 20/30 years time are they? its a career path and they are starting at the bottom after training, much like a lot of industries,
i work in mental health,(top of band 3, I've been here a while )we get a new locum doctor who works under the consultant every 3 months maybe? some of them can barely tie their own shoes, £21k seems fair sometimes
same money/hours in 20/30 years time
Money no, hours quite possibly.
its a career path and they are starting at the bottom after training, much like a lot of industries,
As mentioned earlier, a "junior doctor" is basically just a doctor that hasn't made it to Consultant yet. It's not just the pimply faced graduates. Some will have been practising doctors for well over a decade. They'll be getting paid more than that starting salary (as you'd expect) but they'll still be on the same long crap hours and still rotated round to a different hospital every six months or so.
an they? Average UK salary is £26,500
Mean, median or mode?
Median. Actually it looks like it has gone up:
For the year ending 5 April 2014 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees (who had been in the same job for at least 12 months) were £27,200, an increase of 0.7% from the previous year.-- [url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/ashe/annual-survey-of-hours-and-earnings/2014-provisional-results/stb-ashe-statistical-bulletin-2014.html ]Source: ONS[/url]
Whats the mode though, gives a much more realistic picture. Also, those with job insecurity are removed from the data set for some reason that no doubt inflates the picture
I don't think, given 5-7 years of training, with a debt of (probably) £40k, that £22k per annum is good money.
My wife is on 37k 6 months out of university and she's adamant she can make that 40-45k in one more year, with a degree in economics. She has loads less responsibility than a junior doctor - 22k is far far to low considering med students tend to be the best of the best.
Becoming a lawyer or a doctor would be a step down in terms of pay for her, which is IMO a complete joke. But hey what the hell do I care.....I get new bikes. Buohahahah.
Not read all 4 pages but the simple answer is no where near enough
Especially when you compare to certain other professions
Whats the mode though, gives a much more realistic picture.
How do you figure that?
If I have a selection of eleven people and they are on: 5k, 27k, 28k, 30k, 29k, 42k, 19k, 100k, 41k, 5k, 60k then the Mode would be 5k. How is that more representative?
Anyway that ONS link has all the source data tables if you fancy dicking about in Excel.
I agree with Tom above, I work in finance and get considerably more than a fully trained doctor (if the stats on this thread are to be believed) and I didn't even go to university; and I am much less stressed.
I'm sure you know as well as I do that whilst that may be the official university payscale there's a heck of a lot of experienced postdocs, PhD's, graduates and experienced graduates being paid at band 4 level (17K-20K) because there is a massive over supply of scientists at these levels and the only jobs they can get are being advertised at HNC/HND level but the universities know they will be employing graduates and better when they create the job advert. (Certainly true in life sciences)
Not enough - should become vets
Don't like it don't do it no one holds gun to your head FFS
If no-one becomes a pro footballer, I reckon we'd all make it through. If no-one becomes a doctor, we are in deep trouble!
Would it make you feel better if they were poor?
There are plenty of countries where doctors are poor. Often, they demand bribes to treat patients even in "free" healthcare systems. It's not, on balance, a great way to run things.
I wouldn't say it was underpaid, it's still more than engineering and thats so complicated ive given up explaining to people what it is i do :-p
As for hours, depending on the company ive had friends on anything from 35-60 hour weeks.
Risk of being sent to a hospital 100 miles away? How about egypt, iraq, Saudi, emirates, Kazakhstan, india, nw australia, korea, Thailand and singapore on conditions ranging from excelent to take or your fired?
Yup Rob, I'm just going to do my CFA and jack this science crap in. Balls to it, I'm just going to join the enemy.
Masters in something mathsy and a CFA should do it. No more staring at HPLC instruments for less than 10 an hour, yay.
Is it cheating if you are sys admin for the financial system in a mid sized hospital?
Not enough - should become vets
Much harder to get into, something which always perplexed me. Vets get paid more as its fundamentally a private sector business. Many of the wife's family are doctors and dentists is France, All private practice and some very financially successful. Different system there, a hybrid between state and private insurance. There is a lesson there I say.
Not really.
French hospital medicine is rather good. Unless you are in Paris in August.
French general practice is weird, poorly paid in many places, and prescribes stuff the rest of Europe stopped using 40 years ago.
All systems have their problems. Ours is mainly a combination of entrenched inefficiency and high-handedness by some managers and consultants, and continuing political meddling.
Might start higher as a vet but don't go as high as Consultants etc Most of those 20+ will be partners owning their own business like GPs. Take into consideration lack of public sector pension and the gap probably narrows more at the start and grows at the top end.
SPVS salary survey 2014. Industry standard benchmarking.
Fat cats of the feline variety may be on the rise but the same cannot be said of the vets who treat them. The 2014 SPVS Salaries Survey is published today and reveals that, while most vets have experienced very little salary increase on last year, those in the 10 years qualified category have actually lost out with a median 9.2% drop in salary.
Total salary packages varied from £31,150 for newly qualified vets (up 0.5% on last year) to £69,021 for vets qualified for more than 20 years, who were one of the few winners with a double digit increase of 11.9%. This is in marked contrast to the majority of ‘years qualified’ categories that experienced negative growth. The variation in salary increases was less dramatic in terms of hourly rates, which ranged from £16.30 for new graduates to £34.61 for the most experienced vets.
Bloody high rate of killing yourself too.
Centre for Suicide Research | Research | Suicide in high risk occupations |
Suicide in high risk occupational groups - farmers, doctors, female nurses, veterinary surgeons
Several occupational groups in the United Kingdom appear to have considerably elevated risk of suicide. These include, for example, farmers, doctors (especially females), dentists, pharmacists, veterinary surgeons, and female nurses. We have conducted separate research investigations of suicide in farmers, doctors and female nurses in England and Wales. The three studies have each included psychological autopsy investigations (see Hawton, Appleby, Platt et al. (1998) below for a description of this approach). All these projects were commissioned and funded by the Department of Health. We are currently conducting research on suicide in veterinary surgeons.
I’ve mentally written this over and over; I’ve never been a very good writer and suspect this will poorly reflect my intended eloquence but here goes.
I feel completely powerless with respect to my professional future. By this I don’t mean with respect to my patient care, personal educational development or actual maintenance of a job, rather I mean that the future of my profession is increasingly bleak in the UK. Sadly the government has decided to contractually alter doctors conditions within the NHS so as to render it difficult to see a reasonable future employment model. The details of their plan are crystalising and I just cannot understand how anyone would make a rational decision to enter the profession any more. Trainees have already been clinically disempowered and are now being financially penalised. Those currently in training will have their consultant conditions radically altered – to their detriment and there seems to be a growing trend towards well paid physicians assistants at the cost of doctors. Who, I wonder, will hold the medical liability for their role? Consultants currently in contracts will soon, I fear, have them altered.
I see tweets and Facebook posts and although I now write one, I have no expectation that they will make any difference. The government is intent on their plan, the public seem poorly informed and there is almost no ‘industrial action’ that can be taken. How can a doctor strike? It feels morally wrong and would hand a massive ‘PR victory’ to the government. You could almost see the headlines now – ‘Doctors abandon patient care for the Golf Course’… some canards never die and you can bet the entire spin machine of Westminster will ensure they don't. Mass emigration or resignation – sounds great but we all know that will never happen. On the whole we have children in schools, partners in jobs, family responsibilities and more that would make moving, resigning or emigrating difficult to say the least. Again, the government knows this and will use this lever to bludgeon what they want thorough Parliament in the knowledge that there is little effective route to opposition. I’m led to believe that in Australia doctors engaged in a modified strike in that they refused to sign birth and death certificates resulting in significant disruption to daily life and that seems a potential approach – should we be able to engage in action in a united fashion? Would it achieve anything tangible?
I think it’s pretty clear that the endgame here is the restructuring of the NHS and I suspect the end model will be some sort of medical provision with the NHS acting as a smart purchaser of care from a range of chambers. I suspect that altering the doctors’ contracts so harshly is intended to force us to set up companies to provide these chambers and equally wonder if the whole idea of punishing trainees so harshly is to equally induce those chambers to train in house? But this leaves huge potential service gaps – acute and emergency care being one. If this is the intent of Westminster why not just say so? Why not treat the population who elected the government in as adults? “Look, UK, we have no money to maintain the NHS in an effective manner – and here is the evidence for this – so here is our vision”. Instead they choose to scaremonger and manipulate. It all seems a bit Orwellian to me – especially in light of the ‘all animals are good but some are better than others’ approach of a politician pay rise while the rest of the public sector remains frozen. How is that even justifiable? It was done with no apparent attempt at public debate under the reasoning that you have to pay more to get quality. Does that mean the NHS, civil service and MOD – to name a few – don’t need to be of quality as they are effectively suffering a real terms pay cut.
So I feel powerless. This attempt at diarising my concerns will never have the readability, publicity or coverage of a Boris Johnson article and I don’t for an instant believe Jeremy Hunt or David Cameron would ever read this and to some extent I wonder if I am just feeding the dying embers of the last whimper of the NHS but in the interest of my own mens sana I had to at least write it.
We live in interesting times.
Another big post. This is an open letter to an MP from one of our medical friends who is facing a 30% pay cut in these changes. It sums up a lot of what has been said:
Dear Mrs. Bruce,I am writing to you in follow-up to my e-mail of 24th July to which I still look forward to your reply. The situation regarding the government’s treatment of the NHS and the medical profession has moved on since then, and in particular I wish to address the matter of the new junior doctor contract which, as things stand, will apparently be imposed from next August.
As I previously explained, I am an anaesthetic registrar who is due to complete my training in August 2017. I graduated from medical school in 2006 and I have been a ‘junior doctor’ for all this time. The term refers to all doctors in training, from those who have just completed medical school to those who are on the verge of becoming consultants, and as encompasses a wide range of skills and experience.
The new contract will fundamentally alter the way we are paid, in line with recent recommendations from the Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration, which have been roundly condemned by the profession itself. I expect it will be publicly sold as a pay rise, as the basic pay will indeed be increasing, but our salaries are significantly impacted by a ‘banding supplement’ to cover out of hours work. For myself this provides 50% on top of basic pay (a fairly standard rate), i.e. one third of my salary. These banding payments are to be abolished and replaced with a much lower supplement that, together with a redefinition of what counts as unsocial hours, means I am facing a pay cut of somewhere between 10-30% of my salary (by current estimates).
The only trainees who will actually experience a pay rise are the few in specialities with little or no out of hours commitment. Those of us who routinely work evenings, nights and weekends (including my beleaguered colleagues in Emergency Medicine) will be hit hardest. GP trainees will also stand to lose a significant chunk of their income – this when a recruitment crisis already exists!
The new contract will also particularly hit those who take parental leave, those who take time away from training to obtain higher qualifications such as a PhD (as expected in several specialities) and those who change specialities, as I did in 2010. At present, my salary reflects the training and experience that I obtained before entering anaesthesia, which continues to be of use to me today. In the future, dropping back to the bottom of the pay scale may be a bar to someone wishing to move to a speciality for which they are better suited.
I am not pleading poverty, but a pay cut of this magnitude is not an appropriate way to treat a group of highly trained, highly skilled individuals doing an important and very responsible job. I know I am not alone in having made financial commitments that I would not have made had I known I was faced with losing potentially almost a third of my income.
Since qualifying, I have seen medical training overhauled, including the debacle that was MTAS/MMC. Along with many others I have moved hundreds of miles, away from family and friends, to continue my training. I have seen accumulation of the correct paperwork seemingly become more important than clinical ability. I have seen changes to our pensions that mean we get to pay more for the privilege of retiring later and receiving less (despite the NHS pension scheme being a net contributor to the economy). For this I get a pay cut.
I have worked well beyond my contracted hours on a regular basis and have been in work for more nights and weekends than I could tell you. I have missed birthdays, weddings and Christmases, neglecting my loved ones in the process. I have gained skills and experience that allow me to work increasingly independently and also to provide training to those junior to me, often in my own time. For this I get a pay cut.
I pay over £1000 annually in professional fees – these are not optional payments and I am not counting membership of the BMA. I have paid over £2000 to sit required postgraduate exams. I am still paying off my student loan. I pay several hundred pounds a year to park at my workplace! For this I get a pay cut.
I have been punched, scratched and bitten in the course of my job (generally by those who aren’t in a position to know better). I have called families in at 5am to explain to them that their loved one is dying. I have played a major role in the saving of many lives. I go to work every day knowing that if I am not on the ball, a patient could come to harm or worse. For this I get a pay cut.
I am not at all unique in any of this. Normally these are not causes for complaint – they are part of the job – but in the present circumstances I feel it is important to describe what the job actually entails. We have listened to one health secretary after another (in particular the present one) tell the public that we are greedy, workshy and to blame for the systemic problems in the NHS, when none of them have shown much sign of understanding our work.
For the first time in my career, I am seriously considering taking my skills and training overseas. I believe in the NHS but these changes show that we, as a workforce, are not valued. I didn’t go into medicine for the money but I do expect my salary to reflect what I have put into my career. I don’t believe that other developed countries treat their medics with the contempt shown to us by the current government. Many of us will leave and find that our lives (in and out of work) are better elsewhere. Nurses and other allied health professionals will quite reasonably wonder if they are next in line for this sort of treatment.
As in my previous e-mail, I implore you to support the workforce of the NHS and oppose this wholesale erosion of our conditions. I have never seen my colleagues as angry as they are now.
Yours sincerely,
Dr. Rachel Smith
If I have a selection of eleven people and they are on: 5k, 27k, 28k, 30k, 29k, 42k, 19k, 100k, 41k, 5k, 60k then the Mode would be 5k. How is that more representative?
Because the country has many more than 11 people in it who work?
Because the country has many more than 11 people in it who work?
I don't really want to get derailed into a discussion about stats, but that still doesn't make Mode a good way of assessing what people earn does it?
For example let's say a very large employer has a structured pay scheme with set remuneration levels. That increases the frequency of those specific salaries and makes them more likely to be the Mode.
e.g. Let's say all Tesco store managers earn exactly £31,637.90 a year. That might be a big enough employer and common enough position to make that figure the most frequent in the survey, so it would be the Mode. But how would that be helpful when we know (from the median) that the majority of established full-time workers are paid four grand less than that?
With respect to median, mode and mean, the comparison is pretty bogus. Doctors do not work median, mode or mean hours, at median, mode or mean times of the day (or night, or week, or year) and don't have median, mode or mean levels of training and education.
... Or responsibility, or rates of stress and suicide.
Thats true but we were discussing the national average wage. The mean is squewed by high earners and median is not representative of what most people earn either. Mode would be better when looking for what people earn on a national level. And thats before we discus the 24k figure only included people who had been in the same job a year ( which would I expect get rid of a lot of lower earners)
PS I think Dr's get a shit deal by the way
Also, because I'm a old school leftie and I think that the real struggle is not between workers but between workers and capitalists, 22k is about the annual return on a buy-to-let costing 200k. Ie you'd be paid the same amount as a junior doc earns by simply owning a mid-sized terrace house in the north of England and sitting on your arse all day long. Source: http://www.moneyobserver.com/news/28-05-2015/buy-to-let-annual-return-rises-above-111-billion
median is not representative of what most people earn either. Mode would be better when looking for what people earn on a national level
I really don't understand your logic there. If you work full-time and receive a median salary then half of the full-time working population receive less than you and half receive more. That seems like a reasonable definition of "average".
Conversely if you happen to be on the median salary then you just receive an amount that happens to come up frequently for whatever reason. It may be unusually high or unusually low compared to what everyone else gets.
Anyway this is getting well OT. Whatever definition you use a 15-30% pay cut plus possibly additional hours for an already extremely hard working and stretched workforce is a shit deal that seems specifically designed to destroy the NHS by stealth.
Incidentally I've heard rumours that the government are currently trying to block Certificates of Good Standing from being issued to ST3's and lower in the hope that they can prevent a mass exodus of junior doctors to other countries.
Meanwhile we are heavily recruiting doctors and nurses from third-world countries who need them more than us.
Incidentally I've heard rumours...
That would, I think, be the last straw for people thinking about quitting to do something else, just because of the sheer level of disrespect that would demonstrate. I anticipate it will be with us within the month.
It beats me why there are any doctors at all in this country. (If it was all about money)
Australia or the USA would give them a much better deal.
The NHS is brilliant but our politicians' agenda is to monetise it and flog it off to their mates. There is no other logical reason for the way they are trying to destroy it. (Apart from stupidity)
(Apart from stupidity)
Hanlon's Razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
... although in this case it may just be malice.