[Closed] How much do you think junior doctors get paid?

starting on 40k at a guess?

Given the training, responsibility and long hours I'd say more than fair/

How junior? My guess:

First year out of uni (still training?) £20-25K
Second year £30k+

Genuinely no idea. Highly skilled job that involve a lot of training, but is a job that people want to do so supply would be high. Long hours and high stress but good career progression with long term prospects. Public sector so lower basic with good benefits. Lets say £25k, maybe a touch less.

I would have guessed £30k and a shed load of hours for a number of years before progressing to serioulsy good money.

Straight out of education, I'd guess at around £40 to £45k.

When I was at uni I was dating a medical student. When I graduated 2 years before her I made an informal bet that I'd be earning more than her by the time she graduated.

It wasn't a hard bet to win back then. It would be even easier now. When you boil it down to an hourly rate (actual hours worked rather than the contract) it's much less than people think it is.

starting on 40k at a guess?

😆

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

so supply would be high

Do you read the news?

First year out of uni (still training?) £20-25K

Do doctors get paid while training?

35k when fully qualified at a guess.

FY1 - £22k ish basic.

The other important question is "what do you think a Junior Doctor actually is?"

Hint: it is not, as some people assume, someone fresh out of medical school.

My missus graduated in the late 90s and has been practising since. She is still a "junior doctor".

22k?

They should become tube drivers...

Do doctors get paid while training?

They never stop training.

At least not till Consultant level anyway, and they still have mandatory training requirements.

Ummm is it about £22636 pa?

*Google may have been involved in coming up with this figure.

*Google may have been involved in coming up with this figure.

Spoilsport

From that NHS link

For a doctor in specialist training the basic salary is between £30,002 and £47,175.

If this is like most government pay scales, no doctor would ever reach the £47 max (no such thing as annual increments). They would more likely bump along the bottom until they moved on to a more lucrative post.

The other important question is "what do you think a Junior Doctor actually is?"

The other other important question is "How much do juniors in NZ / Oz / Canada get paid?"

Fortunately they have subsidised staff restaurant, and no spare waking hours in which to spend their earnings, in which case 22K is an absolute fortune.

Wheareas i have half an hour for lunch and a nearby waitrose, plus time off in the evenings for kids and a life and hobbies, so despite earning substantially more than 22K I still haven't got 2 farthings to rub together.

The lucky bastards.

(no such thing as annual increments)

There used to be - they've been scrapped in the new contract.

Fortunately they have subsidised staff restaurant

In my girlfriend's hospital they added a new wing and flogged concession stands to Costa and Subway which are now forcing the, very reasonable and not half bad, canteen out of business. Hooray!

I honestly had no idea that the pay was that poor and they say teachers have it bad.

The other important question is "what do you think a Junior Doctor actually is?"

Excellent point. I'd be guessing that a junior dr is anyone who isnt a consultant or a GP. Could be wrong though.

For a doctor in specialist training the basic salary is between £30,002 and £47,175.

Specialist training is about 2-3 years beyond junior doctor levels.

The other other important question is "The other other important question is "How much do juniors in NZ / Oz / Canada get paid?""

The much more significant question is, "How much better do juniors in NZ / Oz / Canada get treated?"

I'll give you a clue. Much, much better.

Yup - you have to really want to be a doctor to be a doctor.

Lifetime potential earnings huge though.

In fairness, newly qualified doctors are more of a liability than an asset for their first couple of years at least... (tongue partially in cheek 😉 )

Excellent point. I'd be guessing that a junior dr is anyone who isnt a consultant or a GP. Could be wrong though.

Spot on. But most people hear the term "Junior Doctor" and think of it like "Junior Apprentice" or something similar.

When the gov talk about cutting Junior Doctor's pay by 30%, they don' just mean the spotty faced oiks who only graduated a month ago. They include people who have been in the job over a decade, who have been rotated around to a different hospital every six months, often moving house as a result.

My mates just qualified to become a paramedic and his starting is about £22 I think.

I've a vague idea it averages £35k?

I only know that because it's the only degree that has a higher starting salary than Process/Chemical Engineering (take that dentists!).

they say teachers have it bad.

My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.

Lifetime potential earnings huge though.

Should get a job driving a train

For trainee train drivers - during the first year of intensive training the reference salary is GBP 24,559 per annum. As a newly qualified driver the reference salary will be GBP 34,129, after 6 months GBP 36,447 and after 9 months GBP 39,148. On successful completion of all training and probation the reference salary is GBP 43,212 per annum.

https://ce0071li.webitrent.com/ce0071li_webrecruitment/wrd/run/ETREC105GF?USESSION=99F37F0C5D3E11E5A4F3F5F721FCA5F5&WVID=5742590010&LANG=USA

they say teachers have it bad.

hmmnn yes. i know two teachers - one works 'part time' which equates to about 40 hours p/w. My SiL works 'full time' which ends up being about 70 hours p/w*. Wouldn't take their jobs for all the tea in china

*And usually if they complain, they're told that they obviously don't work smart enough.

Good point made there OP...

Straight out of education, I'd guess at around £40 to £45k.

Unless you're in the armed forces, you get paid zero pounds during your training (5/6/7 years at uni).
You then become a 'junior doctor'. The basic is about £22k ish, with 'banding' on top of that.
Banding is a supplement up to 50% (or it was when I was a nipper) depending on how many evenings and weekends and nights you did.
This banding made the pay up to about £30k on average (as lots of jobs are unbanded.

So, if you were a '9-5' junior doc, you'd only get £22k.
However, in my day it was actually "if you were a 7-1900' doc" as that was the unbanded hours. (mon-fri).
NOW it's looking like it'll be "if you are a 7-2200 doc, mon - sat" you'll be unbanded.

I don't think, given 5-7 years of training, with a debt of (probably) £40k, that £22k per annum is good money.

In my day...when you progressed year after year, your pay went up. I mean, we were still daft doctors, but slightly less daft than the year before.
Now it's looking like your scale will only increase when you become a specialist trainee (after 2-3 years) and again at registrar level (3-6 years depending on pro rata working life).

Sounds crap TBH. Nice one Jezza.

DrP

They do get additional loadings on top of the Basic Salary.

These are dependent on how many hours outside the European Working Time Directive their contract is for, and also how many of those hours are "unsociable".

The new contract is trying to redefine the [i]plain[/i] (i.e. not "unsociable") hours to be 7am till 10pm! Including weekends.

Because clearly leaving for work at 6am and getting back home after 11pm isn't remotely "unsociable" is it? I'm sure the kids will wait up. 👿

There is that. We work with lots of docs & consultants and they are not afraid of splashing the cash around very liberally and mostly have very lavish lifestyles/cars/houses etc.

I would guess that there are always many more junior doctors than high paid GPs/consultants. So as a junior doctor there is no guarantee you'll ever be able to move into a more lucrative posts and chances are you stay poorly paid all your career. (i may be wrong though)

These are dependent on how many hours outside the European Working Time Directive their contract is for, and also how many of those hours are "unsociable".

The new contract is trying to redefine the plain (i.e. not "unsociable") hours to be 7am till 10pm! Including weekends.

Because clearly leaving for work at 6am and getting back home after 11pm isn't remotely "unsociable" is it? I'm sure the kids will wait up

I don't pretend to know how it works, but surely you wouldn't work 7am-10pm every day? You'd have blown the working time rules in 3.5 days 😯

you get paid zero pounds during your training (5/6/7 years at uni)

If only. Negative 9k these days.

On our first day at medical school we were told that our training to FY2 would cost the NHS 200k each. Given that, why on earth they're trying to get us all to emigrate I've no idea.

This just popped up on my facebook:

https://www.change.org/p/british-medical-association-strike-action?recruiter=40415273&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-share_petition-no_msg&fb_ref=Default

When the gov talk about cutting Junior Doctor's pay by 30%

I'm guessing your other half is a GP trainee. Because one thing we have too many of is GP trainees so we should definitely be discouraging them by slashing their pay...

*Actually there's a recruitment crisis in GP training.

The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on doctors, I despair.

(Must add, I'm not a Dr. but my better half is)

I don't pretend to know how it works, but surely you wouldn't work 7am-10pm every day?

Correct. It is just a redefining of which hours are considered "unsocial".

Actual hours worked depends on the trust/deanery and the number of staff etc.
In my experience (as an observer) 12-13 hour shifts are not unusual, especially for night shifts or "on calls".
But they typically do a few of those back to back and then get a day or two to recover.

would guess that there are always many more junior doctors than high paid GPs/consultants. So as a junior doctor there is no guarantee you'll ever be able to move into a more lucrative posts and chances are you stay poorly paid all your career. (i may be wrong though)

TBH, in most areas of the country, as long as you have MRCGP after your name and a criminal record slightly shorter than Shipman's, you could waltz into a GP role...
No one wants to do it any more. Which is a worry.

Graham - RE ^^^ the 48hrs is usually averaged over a rolling rota (often a 13 week rota, including 'zero hour' days and built in leave. It wasn't uncommon for me to work 7 x 13 hour night shifts on the trot, then have 4 'zero hour' days to recover, then a few more 13 hour shifts. In old money, those 13 hour shifts would attract banding (as some would be unsocial hours. But now you could work 0800 - 2100 and still be unbanded.
Those HR managers aren't daft. It wouldn't be hard to get someone working 80 hours a week every week and a half, and still ahve them on a completely unbanded role.
F that.....

DrP

I'm guessing your other half is a GP trainee

Nope, I think her title is something like senior specialist registrar .

(I'll say no more as she wouldn't want to be identified).

It's classic divide and rule isn't it. Let or make everyone else think that doctors are rolling in it, so you can beat them with a stick and nobody but a doctor will mind.

Doctors gave me back my leg. How do we help?

Because one thing we have too many of is GP trainees so we should definitely be discouraging them by slashing their pay...

*Actually there's a recruitment crisis in GP training.

No one wants to do it any more. Which is a worry

Any wonder with the government doing this?

The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on doctors

The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many junior professions in the public sector, whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc. They seem to think they are all on MPs salaries and perks.

For those who this will effect though Scotland looks even more appealing as the Scottish Government will not impose these changes, only England and Wales.

The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many junior professions in the public sector, whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc.

Yeah, I agree with this, particularly teachers. A friend recently became a lawyer and wanted to go into criminal law but the changes to legal aid have put him off.

Let or make everyone else think that doctors are rolling in it, so you can beat them with a stick and nobody but a doctor will mind.

Yep - see the recent nonsense about wanting a 24/7 NHS. Have you ever seen an A&E turning people away because it is closed for the night?

And if the doctors threaten to strike then they are just being greedy and "putting patients lives at risk".

A cynical person would say it is all part of a greater plan to privatise more of the NHS.

Doctors gave me back my leg. How do we help?

Don't buy the bullsh*t.

Let or make everyone else think that doctors are rolling in it, so you can beat them with a stick and nobody but a doctor will mind.

I often say to my patients (when they walk in with the daily fail in hand...groan) that the reason the NHS (and more recently, GPs) take such a beating in the press, is that it sells papers.
Basically, everyone has a GP, so to have
"[b]Your GP is a retarded paedophile[/b]" on the front page is going to get EVERYONE's ears pricked up, and sell the paper.

The title "[b]Your Nephro-oncologist ate my hamster[/b]" is going to appeal to only a minority of the population..hence be less lucrative a headline..

DrP

1 million dollars ?

Scotland

I am so going to Scotland if I can persuade the other half.

*Actually there's a recruitment crisis in GP training.

This underplays it somewhat. I believe that our local GP Speciality training was undersubscribed by 90% last year.

F1 (first year) is low twenties - which is less than first year Nurses.
F2 is high twenties.

After that it really depends where they go - GPs is mid-fifties, if they stay in hospitals they don't get quite as much initially, Consultants are the real Rock Stars up to £150k in the NHS, plus a bit of Private Practice.

GPs shouldn't feel too hard done by either - GP surgeries are privately owned and hardly stuck for business - the sky is the limit!

Most of my Outlaws are either Medics or in the Legal Profession, the lawyers make so much more it should make them blush

My Wife's Uncle is supposed to make about 500k to £1m a year.

Consultants are the real Rock Stars up to £150k in the NHS, plus a bit of Private Practice.

According to> http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/
:

Consultants

Consultants can earn a basic salary of between £75,249 and £101,451 per year, dependent on years of seniority in the consultant grade. Local and national clinical excellence awards may be awarded subject to meeting the necessary criteria.

And it is a very long road to get there.

101k is someone who has been a consultant for 19 years!

Consultants are the real Rock Stars up to £150k in the NHS, plus a bit of Private Practice.

£101k is the highest consultant salary. They can top that up through teaching/administration/research work but that's on top of their salaried role and is specifically intended to reduce the private practice they're doing.

http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/consultants-pay-england

Medical Students come out of Uni with 50k + debt.

Earn the wage as discussed above at FY1 (plus on call banding which can be up to 50%) however when you work 80hrs per week, that comes out as peanuts.

Plus then you have to factor in what it costs to be a doctor. Indemnity Insurance, Training Fees, only getting 1 year contracts so you can have a job in a hospital 1 year and then have to move 100's of miles for the next job the year after. It is not good work 14hr days + 2hrs each way commuting.

The 48hr week thing is pure bull. It is 'monitored' on a rolling 14 week period. It would not be uncommon for a Dr to do 14 days in a row without break, 10hrs + per day. Yes they do then get some time off but not enough to recover.

I am curious to how loaded people think consultants are though?

Edit: Ah I see we have now discussed consultants. Bear in mind doctors are the cream of the educational crop, along with lawyers, business directors etc, their pay is completely woeful in comparison.

Oh and the doctors that make money through Private Practice, yes they can make big money, but they work 7 days a week for it.

GrahamS - Member

Don't buy the bullsh*t.

It's not enough though is it? You need to convince millions of people that are getting spoonfed The Message. I don't know how this works, I've marched and fought for simple causes and they're simple to support but this is more complicated and more important, is there a campaign that give support to? Something you want burned down?

My mates just qualified to become a paramedic and his starting is about £22 I think.

He is one of the last few to be paid then. It's now pretty much Uni lead so you pay to become a Paramedic.

GPs shouldn't feel too hard done by either - GP surgeries are privately owned and hardly stuck for business - the sky is the limit!

Whereas [u]I[/u] never claim to feel hard done by, that's a bit like saying
"Bike shop owners shouldn't feel too hard done by either - Bike shops are privately owned and hardly stuck for business - the sky is the limit!"

Each has a limited source of income, and certain fluctuating expenses (mainly staff tbh). It's not the licence to print money like some think it is!

Don't worry about me though - as long as I've got my solid gold house and my rocket car, I'm a happy man..
[img] [/img]

DrP

Amazingly, however, all this medical poverty still doesn't seem to have solved the God complex drilled into all medics from an early age.

😉

The doctors do seem somewhat powerless. The BMA elected not to re-enter the recent negotiations, as far as I can tell because the starting position was too bad with no prospect of improvement. Doctors, in general, seem reluctant to strike not only because of the negative press but through genuine concern for patient safety. The gov't know this, and they have enough influence in the tabloids so can force through any new contract they want as they have done this week.

Combined with the trade unions bill the other day, it's looking like a very long time till the next General Election 🙁

Maninthenorth you are right to a point. Medicine by definition is making decisions often based on only a certain amount of information which may have massive consequences if you get it wrong.

That needs a certain amount of self belief. Fine line that though.

The contract changes plus pension changes plus med school fees are a disaster though. More and more of those leaving medical school are going overseas or leaving. Some rotas are now 50% vacant and getting worse....

Tongue somewhat less in cheek...

the general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many junior professions in the public sector, whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc. They seem to think they are all on MPs salaries and perks.

Agreed. Part of the issue is a cultural lag: there was once a financial advantage to joining the professions, but most have changed so much that the advice of those who chose that path (and did ok) or wished they had is out of date by the time their offspring follow that advice into practice.

As someone who changed career away from being a lawyer, I already earn materially more by not using my professional qualifications directly. Had I done it sooner I'd be earning better still.

The only reason to join any of the professions - including medicine - is a vocation. If you want money, do something else.

@Jet26 - was a joke. I used to say it because those who become medics have usually spent their lives being told how clever they are and started to believe it, whereas now I think it's more to do with poor training on how best to communicate with patients. Limiting information and keeping it too high level no longer simplifies, and we all now know all too well that doctor no longer knows best.

It's not enough though is it? You need to convince millions of people that are getting spoonfed The Message. I don't know how this works, I've marched and fought for simple causes and they're simple to support but this is more complicated and more important, is there a campaign that give support to?

Good question - but aside from a few (largely pointless) petitions I haven't seen anything (just trawled through my missus' facebook posts to check 🙂 )

This petition did well:
[url= https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334 ]To debate a vote of no confidence in Health Secretary the Right Hon Jeremy Hunt (220,829 signatures)[/url]

They "debated" it and then pretty much repeated the government's position: People deserve a seven day NHS, which we'll somehow deliver with the same number of doctors and budget, and the doctors will [i]actually[/i] be much better off don't you know.

the general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many [b]junior professions in the public sector[/b], whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc. They seem to think they are all on MPs salaries and perks.

Yeah, but they caused the financial crisis.

[url=

Toothless, tainted professional bodies who don't fairly represent or support the fragmented profession, and the bashing by the media will mean that the government can do whatever it likes to doctors. It all looks a bit 'every man for himself' across the board at the moment. Was humbled when talking to a surgeon recently, "to slow the devaluing of our profession all we can do is to continue to do the best job we possibly can and prove our worth". Sadly I think he'll need Murdoch and his mates onside too. I am not a doc, but wife and many friends are.

My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.

Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?

There's a petition directed at the BMA in favour of strike action that's all over my Facebook today:

https://www.change.org/p/british-medical-association-strike-action?recruiter=386731400&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_page&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg

Currently just shy of 11k signatures. I'm probably not going to sign it but it is there.

Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?

Er, I am one?

I would say, not having the MRCGP is no obstacle to a GP partnership, my wife's practice have been down two partners for ages and works 8 sessions and regularly works from 07:30 through to 21:30.
The money they have is spent on locums who won't do paperwork or check results!!
She is clinical lead for OOH services and they cant get doctors to work OOH as they can no longer afford the indemnity, its a problem that is going to get worse.
24/7 healthcare what a joke.
She doesn't get a six week holiday in summer.

Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?

pwnage

She doesn't get a six week holiday in summer.

Neither do most teachers, if that's what you were inferring.

pwnage

5 years of med school were totally worth it for that one moment.

Neither do most teachers, if that's what you were inferring.

They do get 13 weeks "off" a year

This year, the wife spent:
* 2 separate weeks on outward bound courses with the kids (her choice you might say),
* two days in school for GCSE & A-level results,
* about 3 weekends providing DoE scheme leadership.
* another couple of weeks working on schemes of work and other stuff there isn't time for in term time.

Probably just enough time off to bring her under the working time directive laws.

I don't think you do either of those jobs to get rich (not that teaching was ever seen like that).

The Juniors are getting screwed.

Private work for many Consultants has all but evaporated - not that I have huge sympathy with them about this...

And us GPs who everyone thinks screwed the Labour Government in 2004 and made shedloads, are in fact now earning less after inflation than we were before 2004 and working 30-50% harder.

Some simple truths.
1) The NHS is too big a trainset for any new Government to leave alone. They just have to meddle. 👿
2) People are getting older, healthier and expecting more.
3) One of the most poorly thought of professions, Politicians, are deliberately running down the image and public opinion of Drs - one of the best thought of.
4) The NHS was probably at its best 4-5 years ago, and waiting list and quality-wise is beginiing to hit the buffers.
5) The 7 day NHS issue applies in every single country. We do not have the money or the manpower ready to solve it.
6) There is a huge huge recruitment crisis in General Practice, and for me, and a lot of my cohort in our last 10 years of practice (30 Doctoring down, hopefully 7-8 to go), the Government's behaviour, attitude to pensions and to "the 7 day NHS" is encouraging us to leave earlier than we would have, and not to consider working reduced hours etc.