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But does all that education really pay off ? I was walking home yesterday the traffic lights on a busy crossroads were out of action. A small group from the nearby private schools one of the top in the country were pressing the pedestrian crossing button wondering why nothing was happening 🙄
Ironic really as when they are working normally hardly any of them bother to use them . I think they think their lofty status means they are immune to car / person exchanges 😁
A young lass moved in over the road she must be 25/26 at a guess, currently the downstairs windows are boarded up, doesn't speak to anyone but is often wrestling with random dogs trying to fight each other, god knows where they come from as they seem to be different everytime, and often times has a different car on the driveway every other night belonging to different blokes who seem to come and go.
My family background is a good metaphor for modern Britain I think. Grandfather travelled down from the north east to the sarf for work in the 1930s. Never owned a home. Father graduated from engineering machine shop to lower ranks of management and was first in the family to buy a home, but never had much more than that - never a new car, all holidays in the UK due to cost. etc. I went to comprehensive school and was talked into doing a polytechnic degree, and got two. Career in finance followed and that BBC thingy says I am "elite". That whole story is one of self-help and aspiration and a degree of social mobility, but one which looking at the history of my various nieces and nephews and offspring of friends i fear can't be repeated to the same extent; improving the hand you are dealt at birth looks more and more difficult.
According to the BBC quiz, Established middle class
I would disagree though
A classic trait of the established middle class.
Me… well I’m proper ****ing John Cleese according to the survey.
I was walking home yesterday the traffic lights on a busy crossroads were out of action. A small group from the nearby private schools one of the top in the country were pressing the pedestrian crossing button wondering why nothing was happening
Teenagers acting like morons, especially when in groups, is entirely class-agnostic
That quiz is a laugh, the only things on the activities list I could find were excercise and socialising at home but I still made elite. Opera? **** that! However my social life revolves around horses, skiing, MTBing with all the right sort of mates according to the quiz, they all sound normal though, the things that limit social mobility are more subtle in these parts; loads of people ski but not many ski in Courchevel. It's still jobs for the boys, networking, contacts, right university ( edit: scrub that one if you end up at the fac', a basic university, you weren't bright enough to go somewhere better or skilled enough to have a trade)... even after a revolution.
I view the whole class thing as unhealthy and it's one of the things that British society does better (worse) than any other I've lived in. The number of classes the quiz uses speaks volumes. Low social mobility (shared with many other countries unfortunately) combined with easily recognisable class codes in terms of accent and behaviour make Britain a very divided place.
Happily we can't hear each other on this forum, if we could it would make it even more conflictual than it already is. I'm sure that if I heard one member I'd tell them to **** off, and if they didn't leave the forum. That's how it works in real life. People moan about not seeing people's facial reactions and body language, or hearing the intonation in posts, I think it's a godsend.
I listen to r4 Today whilst hand grinding my specialty coffee in the morning.
But pour gravy on my chippy chips!
I need to work, so I'd say working class!
But pour gravy on my chippy chips!
I'd say that's a geographical marker rather than a class one.
I’d say that’s a geographical marker rather than a class one.
I'm southern.
connections combined with attitude that you really are better than the others and deserve more baked in.
yeah, but its the connections not the content thats the trick
I've never used any connections from my Uni group in my career - not in touch with a single person I graduated with.
Uni does teach you other skills though, which are useful in a career.
NB I did Engineering and a BSc back then was one of the mandatory hoops necessary to jump through to start a career in Industry.
Oops, BEng. So long ago I can't even remember what degree I actually did!
I’ve never used any connections from my Uni group in my career – not in touch with a single person I graduated with.
Working with some eton then oxbridge humanities types was a real eye opener. Any time they needed a thing, they just put out a shout and then a friend of a friend of a friend who was an expert on the thing but also went to oxbridge would come and help, ususally for free. Quid pro quo knowing that they could get similar favours on tap.
Technical middle class according to the BBC.
I grew up on council estates, went to about 6 different primary schools and 2 senior schools. Left school with no qualifications and then got sacked from my first job, at Sainsbury's, for being a dosser really! I was proper working class, dad was a joiner, mum unemployed.
Met my now Wife at Sainsbury's before I got sacked and eventually got together with her, god know why she went out with me apart from the fact that I was stunningly handsome, had long hair and was quite hard. I assume she was rebelling.
Basically because of her I had a year out travelling, have qualifications, a good job in civil engineering, 2 cars, at least 2 foreign holidays a year, own a good house in a middle class suberb, several bikes and have some savings.
Even her parents like me now, so I must be middle class!
British society does better (worse) than any other I’ve lived in.
Nah, live in Southern or Eastern Asia for any length of time to see real class divide in action. They make the Brits look like amateurs.
to see real class divide in action.
The Indian caste system has to be the pinnacle of self-imposed social stratification...
With the exception of Slavery.
Im a social butterfly and can happily alternate between 'working the land' and 'owning the land'.
I could have watched Tiswas as a child but chose not too, in favour of Swapshop, which was much less anarchic. Chris Tarrant scared me, and I was too young to appreciate Sally James at the time. Still don't like itv and absolutely will not enter an Asda.
If you stick with the traiditional Marxist definition of working class (everyone who has a wage and derives all their income from selling their labour) then an awful lot of people who describe themselves as middle class are anything but. If I didn't work I'd be homeless and hungry, so I know where I am.
That BBC quiz is amusing. ‘Elite’ apparently 🤔 not convinced. Must be the jazz-opera theatre evenings 😆
Filling in that BBC thing using 2013 values puts me into Technical Middle Class, but I think that's actually a reflection of the folk that put the questions together and some things have changed a lot in 10 years - emerging social media?
My income and savings have reduced since then too so I'm probably in a different category now, not that I personally think I've changed at all.
Savings is an interesting factor though. Having been brought up solidly working class, my mother drummed into me never to get into debt (other than a mortgage) so I saved rather than spend on foreign holidays, cars, bigger houses etc. That higher savings indicates middle class therefore seems a bit weird to me, though I can also see a different dynamic.
If you stick with the traditional Marxist definition of working class
Which nobody did, ever.
Which nobody did, ever.
Well they should, because it's the truth. I get people might want to imagine they're higher up the pecking order in the socio-economic hierarchy but it's an illusion. A bit more self-awareness might result in them making different choices about who to vote for and what to demand of their political representatives.
Blimey, if you read social science there's loads employing the 'relationship to the means of production' formula, (Harry) Braverman, Baran and Sweezy, Lukes, Kidron etc etc. The BBC questions are about as revealing as 'what's your favourite colour?' Is a £500k gaff in Belfast the same as in Battersea? What if your mortgage free? What is your disposable income? Do you manage the labour of others? Is a trust fund the same as 'savings'? People get confused by status and Mrs Bucket stuff, kippers and curtains.
Always assumed If I had a label, it was run of the mill middle class: Dad was a ships, then factory engineer, Mum was a teacher. Degree, post grad, worked as a planning officer then for the national trust. According to the BBC I'm New Affluent, however - sounds exciting! Especially for a 61 year old semi retired slacker.
We are Elite!
Son of 2 police officers, left school at 18, no degree but I have been lucky at work and progressed into a higher paid roles.
That BBC quiz is amusing. ‘Elite’ apparently
Me too, I'm guessing because I listen to classical music. Or maybe it's my 100k+ "savings" (AKA my pension pot).
Is the pretense of middle class not just an invention to keep the workers working.
Two people can think they are middle class, one has millions in the bank, the other earns 100k and has a massive mortgage. Money is not the only metric of course but at the end of the day if you run out of it the facade crumbles quickly.
Happiness is the most important gauge for a population. I work with Danes and Swedes daily and I would argue that the true word is contentment, I don't meet many truly happy ones.
I’m class-free. In many ways.
You don’t understand it because it doesn’t exist anymore. It’s a myth. We live in a society where backgrounds are so diverse that trying to pigeon hole people into classes is futile and just leads to silly generalisations.
Maybe ‘class’ as a thing doesn’t exist anymore, but there are definitely ‘societal groups’ that you can probably broadly define by things like income, job type, hobbies, pastimes, cultural activities etc. But, obviously, it could only ever be a broad definition and it would be easy to find exceptions in every case
I think it might depend on where you live. Here in urban south Wales there's very little tradition of being anything other than working class, and most people who may be classed as middle class came from a working class working background. There are no family owned stately homes, no tithed cottages, (or if they are here they are so few as to be invisible) no doffing your cap to a landowner because there aren't any. The last vestige of class that I remember encountering was a girl I worked with 30 years ago who had to say Sir to the landowner that they rented off.
As a case study in the opposite, I'll use an old uni friend. Born in a rural English vicarage, his parents helped him buy a farm that was over twice the value of my parents' house at the time, now worth more than a million. Brother is a director in a very famous tech firm and owns several multi-million pound properties, sister is directly involved in a household name sports team. I've never thought of him as posh, but I've met some very polite but extremely snobby people at his place, living the same rural, privileged lifestyle.
I can mix in their world, just. They've never even seen the world I grew up in. <chip on shoulder now hidden away for a while.. 😀 >
Elite also, but looks like that's just the money questions (purple sections):
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The whole debate is almost moot these days as 'working class' is less easily defined. Perhaps a con, perhaps naturally.
But do consider that many 'bread and butter' working class jobs in manufacturing etc came with a final salary pension that you could take 12 years before the current old age pension kicks in. And because costs were lower, that role could support a family with a partner at home raising kids or working part time.
These days many of us may feel like we are middle class, but our mortgages are 2 to 3 times as large comparatively to our salary, our partners are also working, and the package including pension could be much less generous.
Traditional working class trade jobs are now comparatively right up their in the middle of this band as manufacturing has declined and the service economy needs less skilled labour. The truly poor have no hope of a ccouncil house.
Safe to say the top few % are richer than ever however. So I'd argue the distrubution of wealth has drastically changed.
I think part of it could be that traditional working class jobs meant you had a lower life expectancy, so that's positive. However society seems to have immediately restructured to demand you remain debt ridden until you can't work any more as it normalised huge mortgage burdens that weren't sustainable in the pasts.
Just my rambling anyway.
My parents say that they are not racist, then proceed to moan about immigrants for 90% of their waking hours.
I'm Elite. It took me months to finally move on from being Deadly. Must have been because my 'wannabe Middle Class' Acorn Electron ran so slowly. Proper Middle Clarss had the BBC Model B.
I was also banned from watching Grange Hill. I thought it was just me ha ha.
That test is funny from the perspective of taking it when living in another country. Or maybe it's just because it's just old? It seems like I am surrounded by Social Media Content Creators, and most of the recreation / job options just don't really exist here.
Not middle class enough to consider a milk jug
Both parents graduated from Oxford uni but had very little money, so I feel we are Conflicted Middle Class.
I took the bbc test posted on page 1, apparently I’m a precariat , sounds a bit too much like pescatarian for my liking (I’ve never tried/ate fish). Probably an accurate description of my class though, stayed in the same council/now housing association bungalow for 32 years, relied on benefits in one way or the other for the majority of my life, never really been paid more than minimum wage.
Result: the class group you most closely match is:
Precariat
This is the poorest and most deprived class group. According to the Great British Class Survey results, lots of people in this group:
Tend to mix socially with people like themselves
Come from a working class background
Rent their home - over 80%
I did the BBC test when it came out in 2011. I came out as precariat, which, as a skint musician, felt about right.
Now I'm a 'new affluent worker'. Which also feels about right, except I'm not young. I didn't get a proper job til I was 35 and am well behind most of my peers, financially speaking. I don't think I have changed, in terms of my values or outlook. But I am lot less skint than I was then.
I came up as established middle class but I'm not sure. Definitely don't speak RP (estuary or Luton english), child of a fruit delivery man later store finance salesman (granted my old man was bloody good at it and made good £££) and sandwich delivery van owner. Like cans of Stella over red wine at dinner, but top 10% earner. Homeowners and good savings. But having worked around lots of what I'd call "proper middle class" people in media (RP, private school etc) I just don't identify there. Plus I've got mates who are plasterers, scaffolders and plumbers who earn double what I do.
TLDR: I hate the British class system. Seems like an anachronism.
You know scaffolders who earn £120k per year? Are they the guys putting the scaffolding up, or the owners of the business?
I decant my Port
Have married into MC, just been invited to a wedding in Tuscany. Not one of my pals!
Tea bags! Loose leaf please.
Elite apparently, the only differentiator seems to be financial. Not a great survey though, doesn't even ask if you own additional land.
I wonder how many don’t spot the net rather than gross point.
Elite here too, apparently. Radio 3 listener with a decent income and a house in a nice area. Watching Sport didn't dampen the Eliteness either.
… is it Polo by any chance?
Our store cupboard has about seven types of vinegar, more if you include various bottles of balsamic.
Mind you my west of Scotland upbringing shines through in that my favourite is still the malt vinegar I put on my chips.
does it show me up as a pleb if I have to ask why you wouldn't count balsamic vinegar as 'a type of vinegar'?
I'm not but Mrs Zip is.
Our first shopping trip after we moved in together was eye opening.
We went to Waitrose. I knew what everything cost in Safeway's and Tesco's so was mentioning it regarding everything she put in our overfilling trolley.
The fact that not all people bought the cheapest but could choose the nicest, was difficult to comprehend.
You know scaffolders who earn £120k per year? Are they the guys putting the scaffolding up, or the owners of the business?
You don’t need to be anywhere near £120k to be top 10%.
That’s 1% more like
You don’t need to be anywhere near £120k to be top 10%.
Yes, but the poster said he himself was a top 10% earner, and knew scaffies who earned double what he did.
Re vinegars above. Just my badly worded post. I meant we have three or four different balsamics. But yes they are all vinegar.
… is it Polo by any chance?
Funny you should ask, as the Guards Polo Club is three three miles from the house and we do occasionally go and watch with the dog during walks in the Great Park. Actually it's cycling and cricket (me obvs.) and Rugby and F1 (Mrs TiRed), with the occasional football match.
I definitely grew up working class, council house, stay at home mam, dad worked in the factory (office based though), Grange Hill was totally fine.
Now I'm not totally sure. Work shifts in a factory, nice detached house in the country, two wood burners, drive a ten year old RAV4, I like swearing, will never vote Tory.
I feel I'm working class but I'm not totally convinced. Is upper working class a thing?
We have a horse but don't have land so we have to pay to keep him in a local stables. A young colleague of mine was boasting that himself and the missus just bought a king size bed and when I told him we had a super king bed he was stunned 🙂
I came from working class parents but according to the BBC link on page one I am Established Middle class, little did it know I'm Irish or it might have marked me down the rankings!
5pm is teatime, between 12.30 and 1.30 is dennertime or dinnertime below Hadrian's wall
Anyone who calls lunchtime at early afternoon and dinnertime is 7.30pm is middleclass
I came up as established middle class but I’m not sure. Definitely don’t speak RP (estuary or Luton english), child of a fruit delivery man later store finance salesman (granted my old man was bloody good at it and made good £££) and sandwich delivery van owner. Like cans of Stella over red wine at dinner, but top 10% earner. Homeowners and good savings.
Which part of that makes you middle class? You'd fit in well in the rough working class area that I grew up in with that background.