How many people (in the UK) work a job that's eating them alive with stress?

One of the key things with stress is how you let it affect you.  Years ago I got highly stressed to the point of a panic attack on the way to work.  I changed my job but also changed my attitude.  I grew to accept that the best I could do in the constraints I had was my best and to be content with that.  Not a "**** it that will do" attitude but " I know I have done my best, if its not good enough then its not my fault"

Mrs TJ couldn't do this and the stress built up to a point that she was signed off sick with 18months to retirement and never went back.

CBT can help with giving you tools to deal with stress

Always take your breaks and get out of your workplace even if only for 10 mins.  !0 mins outside and you will be more productive when you get back.

Never take work home - either actual work or worrying about work

Cycle to work - it burns of the stress hormones.  Its the single best thing you can do for your health.  If you really cannot then make sure that when you get home you go and walk around the block or take some other exercise

Stress is a huge factor in modern lives exacerbated by lack of exercise.  Even a ten minute walk daily will help hugely.  the stree hormones build up in your body and exercise is the best way to get rid of them

No job is worth making yourself ill for

I don't think you can (work a job that eats you alive with stress).  Either you find a way of working that reduces the stress levels, or you quit, or your health suffers massively and then you quit. Or you love the stress - a mate does 100 hours most weeks, usually works Christmas. Spends 200-250 nights a year in hotels, usually abroad. He's been like this for 20 years, earns shitloads, and though he grumbles, he loves it really. (otherwise he'd quit!).

But the same job can be very stressful in one company and much less stressful in another - it's not necessarily the role but the culture. So it's worth looking around to see what else is out there.

No easy answer  but personally for me you already hit the nail on the head in your post when you say that its effect is to make you not enjoy your life outside work anymore- that doesn't seem sustainable to me.

For context I wouldn't say I enjoy my job but I don't mind it and on an especially good day sort-of look forward to going into the office (don't get me wrong it has its moments).

That said, I don't get paid massive amounts but I think its someway above the national average and I feel like I get paid very well for what I actually do.

If you're asking the question then maybe it is time to think about making some kind of a change. I'm sure others might disagree.

Mate, this is kind-of my area of work and I just wanted to suggest one of the following...

- Contact your work's EAP scheme for support
- Look up the Access to Work Mental Health Support Service for free support
- Seek an occupational health referral via your manager/HR, to address how work is impacting your health
- Talk to your GP

Edit - or more than one of the above might be helpful actually

Best way I've learned to deal with it is to switch off when you've left work, when you're not at work you can't do your work so stressing and worrying wont make a difference to whatever you have to deal with in the morning.

Outside of work try not to take any work related calls, use linkedin or answer work related emails or teams messages, it's important to exercise a work life balance there.

Also equally important to remember that everything you're stressing about today, in 10 years time won't matter. You either won't even remember it or you'll remember it and think "why was I even worried about that?", there is countless things I reflect back on and remember having sleepless nights and panic attacks that I still get annoyed over, cause I'm annoyed at myself for ever letting myself get so wound up over something that despite being important at the time, is just trivial now.

And also, some jobs and some companies are awful to work for. If the stress gets to a point where it's making your day-by-day miserable it's time to look for new ventures.

This has what's worked for me with 10 years in IT support and now 4 in IT management, the longest I've ever stayed at a company was 4 years but it's not uncommon for me to change jobs every 18-24 months or so once the stress builds up, the joy has depleted and the salary is no longer keeping up with market value.

it’s gotten to an unbearable point for me workload wise and my colleagues generally all feel the same quite openly.

This is the crux, isn't it.

If they have fewer staff, less work can be done. If you're killing yourself because you're doing the work of three people, stop it. Those staff will never be replaced if the rest of the workforce are carrying the can.

The answer to "if I don't do it, it won't get done" is "it won't get done, then" and if management query it it's because Steve left and they didn't hire anyone else.

No job is worth making yourself ill for

Nail/head interface. Can we put that in foot-high letters of fire somewhere?

Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

Going to a four-day week totally changed my relationship with work. Really it made a much more profound difference than I expected it to.

I appreciate that's a priviliged thing to be able to do, but I would 11/10 recommend if its even remotely an option. I've made various sacrificies to accomodate the paycut and they are so worth it.

Thanks all. My (probably incorrect) feeling is that it's hard to let stuff go undone because there are other staff willing to work until 10pm on a Saturday to get it done and I'd be put on a performance review or just be let go eventually. That is catastrophising and I know it, but eventually leaving what I can't get done in time jus results in a huge volume of phonecalls and emails off clients and contractors chasing up X y or z. I'm not a thick skinned person, I'm quite sensitive sometimes and that's just my personality so I do take it quite hard.

I'm not very good at prioritising tasks, and all the managers I've ever had have been shit at it too so not really had any good mentors to teach me it.

Stress is also insidious - it builds up on you and becomes the new normal.  Its only really when you remove the stressor that you realise how badly you are effected

MRsTJ was a case in point.  I kept on encouraging her to go to her GP and her answer always was " the GP won't sign me off.  I'm OK really"  Eventually I put my foot down and changed from "maybe you should see your GP" to "I want you to see your GP"  when she did finally go in she was signed off immediately and a week later both realised how badly she had been suffering and how much of a relief it was.

Your body adapts to the high levels of cortisol and adrenaline.  But its not healthy.

We developed as plains apes - stress was about being eaten by big beasts and the answer was to run away - the exercise burns of the stress hormones.  Nowadays those hormones remain in your system because you get in your car and drive home and slump in front of the telly - or even worse fight with your family

(vastly oversimplified but you get the point)

How many hours a week are you working?  Its OK to occasionaly do overime to meet a specific deadline but its far from OK to regularly do so just to keep up with the demands of the job. Thats allowing your emplyer to abuse you and the WTD still applies and you will burn out.

MRsTJ was a case in point. I kept on encouraging her to go to her GP and her answer always was ” the GP won’t sign me off. I’m OK really” Eventually I put my foot down and changed from “maybe you should see your GP” to “I want you to see your GP” when she did finally go in she was signed off immediately and a week later both realised how badly she had been suffering and how much of a relief it was.

Yeah I get where you're coming from. I think I'd be horribly embarrassed and ashamed if I was to be signed off though (just because I worry so much about how other people see me) and would be concerned if I'd be trusted again by those above and below me if they knew I might crack again.

I tend to feel how much stress ive been under as soon as I take a holiday because it all comes out then physically.

My (probably incorrect) feeling is that it’s hard to let stuff go undone because there are other staff willing to work until 10pm on a Saturday to get it done and I’d be put on a performance review or just be let go eventually

If that's the case start looking for a new job now. if the company if relying on work like that they are a crap employer and are possibly on the rocks.

Just to elaborate on my earlier comment, seeking an OH referral (possibly after your GP has diagnosed stress) will make it your employer's problem rather than yours.

There's no shame in it and they can't legally discriminate against you for needing support.

One of the key things with stress is how you let it affect you. Years ago I got highly stressed to the point of a panic attack on the way to work. I changed my job but also changed my attitude. I grew to accept that the best I could do in the constraints I had was my best and to be content with that. Not a “**** it that will do” attitude but ” I know I have done my best, if its not good enough then its not my fault”

This +1

You're paid (generally) to do 8 hours work, if you're given an unachievable amount to do then that's either for the management to deal with the resourcing, or if they think it's your fault, fire you and find someone more competent (you and they know though if that's actually the case, and it's unlikely). I failed to achieve my target last year, I was quite confident in the end of year review meeting to say I thought I'd done the best I could have in the scenario, if I'm pulling 60 hours weeks and the project is still slipping behind schedule, that's a resourcing and schedule problem, not a me problem, no one had any issues with the end product.

Don't measure yourself against others. In some TV jobs I've worked 7 days a week for 2 months, with some 16h+ days and thrived. In some engineering jobs I'm burnt out by 2pm. On the other hand my manager 2 steps up the tree thrives in 60h+ weeks on these projects, so that career path isn't for me. Just because someone will be along in a minute to say you're wrong and they worked a million hours early in their career, doesn't mean they could do your job, and doesn't mean you couldn't do a different role better than they can.

My other mantra is that big companies aren't charities. It's not my responsibility to support them.

Do you get paid for overtime if you work until 10pm on Sat?

if not you can make more stacking shelves at Wholefoods per hour than at most grad jobs.

If you enjoy your actual work just apply to closest similar co.

What you’re feeling prob applies to a good 20% of the country. See if there are any chilled old folk at the co and ask them for advice.

I've had this ongoing battle for 7 or 8 years at least, across two different employers and stress caused by different factors, but stress nonetheless.

I left my first employer after 12 years as I couldn't cope with the culture/attitudes/personnel any more, I just didn't fit in as I wouldn't let my standards slip and take a 'that'l' do' approach. My role has life safety implications. The stress culminated in suffering ocular migraines at my old place, the last one almost caused me to crash my car. I chose to not let the stress affect me to the same level after that, but left in the end anyway.

2+ years in my new job and the stress is more workload/expectation based, and again after a 6 or 7 year break I had a migraine recently. That was a sign, so I've taken my foot off the gas, and I just do what I can do as well as I can in the 40 hours they pay me for. I don't take any shit from any one (clients included) and have decided that if my approach isn't appreciated and I start to feel I really don't want to be here, I'll leave.

My saving grace currently is no kids and no big mortgage.

That was a sign, so I’ve taken my foot off the gas, and I just do what I can do as well as I can in the 40 hours they pay me for.

this - so much this.

Thanks all, lots of food for thought there and it's clear that it's somewhat widespread but can be somewhat successfully pushed back against. I appreciate all your replies and help

I ended up self harming due to many work related reasons. Im 54, financially stable and thought I wanted more hours and responsibility.

Turns out i was wrong

I'm still on meds having been through this. Still working in a team where at least two others are on similar meds.

In my case, GP and the work provided counselling helped get me stable enough to return to work. Dropped to a 4 day week to alliw me to deal with my ageing psrents and get a little more "me" time.

But basically waiting to find out when the next unhinged policy will be announced that will destroy a little more of my soul. Need to last two more years to help get my daughter through 6th form. 5 more years if she goes to uni. 6 years and I can claim my smaller pensions at 60.

I look around and I see/hear the same issues from friends in other lines of work, can't see any greener grass anywhere.

I ended up self harming due to many work related reasons.

That is awful and a wake up call that I should really protect myself before anything ever reaches that stage.

I look around and I see/hear the same issues from friends in other lines of work, can’t see any greener grass anywhere.

This is why I feel a bit trapped sometimes as what alternative really is there, I guess that reinforces that people are right when they say you need to stand by your boundaries at work rather than just move from place to place and hope to outrun it.

there are other staff willing to work until 10pm on a Saturday to get it done

Sounds like a great reason to leave your current job.

I'm a teacher. I left one work place where people (staff and students) regularly cried with stress. At least 3 a week, every Friday. 1/4 of my team left when I left.

I'm still a teacher at another school. Since I left the management have remove loads of the things that Stressed me out.

At my current school on person cries with stress, but perhaps 3 times a year. The jobs the same. The kids are similar. It's just not as stressful

One of the things i did with boundary setting is throw it back at your manager.  When you get given a new piece of work ask them " what of the work I am doing now do you want me to stop doing to do this new thing? "  or " which if these tasks do you want me to complete as a priority?" make it their problem not yours.

Edit:  If they will not do that then you set your own priorities and email them with the priorities you have set and ask if that is OK.  If they say yes than thats what you work to. If they say no then make them set them.  If they insist all are priorities then tell them some will not be done.

do it all in some form where you have a hard copy - if they want a face to face meeting to discuss then afterwards email with " this is my understanding of the meeting, is this correct"

I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually 'all of them' !!

there are other staff willing to work until 10pm on a Saturday to get it done

Then that's their own stupid fault. Let them. Are they being paid for it?

and I’d be put on a performance review or just be let go eventually.

Then that's (TJ to the forum!) probably illegal.

I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually ‘all of them’ !!

What, simultaneously?

I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually ‘all of them’ !!

In which case the answer is.  "I cannot get them all done in the time available.  ~So which is least important" or set your own list and email it to them for approval.  Make it their problem.

Then that’s (TJ to the forum!) probably illegal.

NOt necessarily but could possibly end up as unfair dismissal but might not.  Performance managing someone  to sacking is easy if you do it right.  Most firms do not

JOIN A UNION NOW!  Seriously do this before you go in again. https://www.tuc.org.uk/joinunion

Also check out your staff handbook / policies - a decent size outfit shuld have one and especially bullying and performance management

the reason for making sure you have everything about your manager setting your priorities is its really good ammo if they do try to performance mange you out.  if they set unrealistic priorities or deadlines its greatly in your favour if they do try to do this

For prioritisation - I now ask for things to be put in order. Highest at the top, lowest at the bottom. New task/responsibility needs to go in the list. The assumption is that anything below the top 5 things isn't happening. It forces peoples hands. Evidence and logic can help in terms of required hours and those available. This normally works for me. If it doesn't look for another job.

Different companies definitely have different cultures. Even within a large company, there can be differences between teams and departments. The best thing is to set ground rules at the start and make it clear to others. My current place is a US company and they are constantly arranging meetings that run until 7pm. I think I've been to one. I just politely decline and ask for it to be rearranged during my working hours. Some people say yes and are doing 11+ hour days.

One company I worked at had a finish time of 4:30. I once worked until 5pm and a site of nearly a thousand people was like a ghost town. Everyone left on time. European company so the head office also didn't really work much in summer!

A lot of it is about how you react to the situation, rather than the situation itself. You can work on this. If you figure it out let me know.

If you can afford it then 4 day weeks are amazing. I did a few years of three day weekends. It's huge how much it shifts the life work balance. Definitely found it easier to handle stress when I had more time to decompress.

What sort of property needs consulting on at 10pm on a Saturday night!!?

Unless your are on a mega wedge of cash I’d be polishing up your CV and getting out of the property game. What is your degree in?

I’m not very good at prioritising tasks, and all the managers I’ve ever had have been shit at it too so not really had any good mentors to teach me it.

^^ And try and work on this.
There must be training you can do? Online, books, LinkedIn?
I always find just plain old pen and paper helps.

To those just saying “just leave it at home” or variations thereof, I’d love to understand how because that is not easy for some of us.  As a high functioning anxiety stressful, overthinking personality, my world is a constant barrage of stress.  There are only three occasions where I’m not unhealthily stressed; when I’m mildly drunk, when I’m on a long 10-14 day family holiday, and when I don’t have the capacity to be E.g. when I’m racing.

I’ve tried pretty much everything for anxiety & stress but the “leave it behind you” bit eludes me.    I can empathise with Airvent, I’m in the same boat and close enough to retirement to see the non work relaxation, but far enough away to be terrified of 15 years more working like this.

Speaking from experience visavi burnout.

1 you are the only one who can decide. Trust your gut if it's unsustainable take action with occupational health and management
2. Everyone reacts differently to stress. I react poorly and have the DNA test results to back it up a bit.
3. You don't have an energy meter to objectively check, again trust your gut.
4. "pushing through" will only lead to burn out and worst case permanent or medium/long term damage (energy levels, depression, fatigue, anxiety).

Btw if you sign off be ready to experience some of the above if you're like me.

To those just saying “just leave it at home” or variations thereof, I’d love to understand how because that is not easy for some of us

It took me years to even get close to this.  The time I had a panic attack on the way to work because I was scared I was going to kill someone with a mistake ( healthcare) made me realise that I had to do something. It also goes along with accepting that some things "just are" and cannot be changed  Hard to describe but thru my 40s I developed this

Its not the same as not giving a stuff.  Its about accepting what "just is"  If I work my hours as hard as I can to the best of my ability and not everything is done to the standard I would like then I had to learn to accept that that was as good a job as I could do within the constraints I had to work in

MRs TJ was never able to reconcile this.  It broke her

Doesn't matter what job you are in, if your managers/culture is crap, it falls down. I think we've all been in that unmanageable stress situation. Lots of good advice above, somewhat difficult if you are newer to the job market than us who have been in it a long time.

I've been with my employer for about 17 years now. I've seen both bad, and good managers, or those who just let you get on with it. Toxicity feeds down, even if managers don't mean it. Currently my managers are OK, fairly laid back. Woudn't say they are dynamic, but they don't put on everyone else, so let us get on with our jobs. In the past it's been different, Director wasn't particualrly nice, or a manager, that fed down to his subbordinates and others.

It's very different to how it was even 5 years ago. Happy to stay where I am now. I was looking to shift roles 5 or so years ago.

Based on my personal experience you need to do something. The current situation is unsustainable.

I agree that seeing your GP, getting signed off, using work counseling services all feel like big steps but doing nothing will achieve nothing.

Also, start looking for another job. As much as they might make supportive noises, there's a very real chance that raising the issue will start a clock ticking.

But remember, doing nothing will fix nothing.

Having just been though this recently and ultimately ended up changing jobs. I'm also currently watching the wife go through the same thing and ultimately, the solution will more than likely be a different job.

<p>I realised I don’t do well when there are tasks that stretch weeks and months ahead to plan- too much of a procrastinator/last minute Larry. I now do a job that only requires me to operate in the immediate moment, defined shift start/end times and nothing I could be doing at home- much happier!</p>

First up, work out what your “**** you” money amount is - ie enough that you don’t feel financially tied to the job, and you can quit if it gets too much. Get it saved, don’t earmark for a new bike or anything like that. I found it much easier to deal with work knowing that I could just quit at any time and be ok.

Secondly if you’re 8 years into a career then there are a lot of people above you earning considerably more to deal with some of the problems.

I was terrible at that stage with assuming I needed to take ownership of everything and it could all be fixed if I just put in the hours. Or giving estimates of time to do things assuming perfect conditions. Get better at escalating issues - doesn’t have to be “this is on fire” ones but can be the “if we don’t get x in the next month then y will happen / deadline will be missed / contract will be lost”. If it’s not in your control, it’s not your problem, do as good a job as you can within the constraints you have.

Ultimately if the layers of management above you are useless, can’t prioritise, can’t resource the work they have, can’t deal with problems fed up to them, then you probably can do a lot better in the same sector. Don’t work silly hours routinely just because other people do - even if it means making stuff up about why you can’t. Let some things fail but push the risk and responsibility upwards in good time. Keep your hours, take your holidays, don’t take it personally.

At least go and see your GP, even if you're unwilling to raise the issue at work right now OP

Since lock down I have learnt to work at the speed of my company laptop not the speed I want to work at, this has reduced so much pressure on myself and I enjoy working now

why would anywhere else be any different.

Or flipped, why wouldn't it?

The biggest stresses in my last job were conflicts arising from ego clashes in a far too informal environment and boredom twiddling my fingers waiting for work to come in. I stayed due to convenience and doubts/lack of confidence in finding better employment and fearing overly formal and punitive work environments.

However redundancy due to company insolvency forced my hand. Just under two months later landed a job after sending a single prospective employment application to a company I thought might take me and I'd like to work for. Happy in the new job, it's a bit different, they're a more professional larger company, and there's greater workload but it's still fairly casual and a nice bunch to work with, and I'm enjoying getting involved so far.

tldr; don't stay, there is better work out there - I genuinely believed for years it was beyond my grasp.

Overtime only exists because your employer doesn't supply enough human labour to achieve the tasks in hand - IE not your problem.

I agree to a point.

You don't create an infrastructure to cope with every freak eventuality. A mobile phone network is scaled for day-to-day usage, not for the one day of the year where everyone sends "Happy New Year!!" SMSes at exactly the same time.

But "can you work back tonight?" should be viewed as a favour if you say yes, and you should be goddamned paid for it or get time off in lieu. It absolutely should not be normalised.

I’m probably a similar age to you OP, and I’m only just starting to learn a lot of the things mentioned in this thread after some crap experiences in previous jobs that left me really low on confidence.

After a few years in my current role, with a decent if not stellar manager I’m much happier about work, and the thought of doing it another 30+ years. I’ve also got a relationship with my colleagues and seniors that I’ve cultivated so that I can say no to tasks and it not be seen as lazy/ poor work ethic- I do the tasks I can to 100%, show my successes, but then state that they will need more resource if they want that level of effort on every task. Not perfect but seems to keep stress at manageable levels for me.

Also if you can’t afford a 4 day week (I can’t), then look at compressing your full time hours. I have every 3rd Friday off (including tomorrow!) for no drop in pay or change in workload. I just work an extra 35mins a day. Feels much more worth a bit of effort on a rubbish Tuesday at work knowing I can ride my bike on the Friday! I’m sure TJ (or Google) can advise on the legal basis everyone has to request a change in working schedule.

I also work in a property consultancy environment and have certainly found that the constant requirement to be 'all things to all people'  can be absolutely brutal.

I spent 11yrs working for a large multinational followed by 8 yrs at an LLP, so I was either working my backside off for the benefit of shareholders or equity partners.  In that time I'd lost count of the number of people I'd seen suffer breakdowns, strokes etc or simply having the life sucked out of them.   I'd always felt like I was coping with the demands of the jobs ok, but there were definitely times when I could feel the walls closing in.

Covid was the final straw when the business furloughed the other members of my team but left me in post to deal with all of the work (there had been zero reduction in my teams workload) so I decided to save up every penny I could  whilst not commuting every day, built up a slush fund then left and set out on my own running my own small business.

Ironically I probably work more hours now than when I was an employee, but its on my terms now, so I get to take my son to school, or go to the gym or go for a ride during the day, then catch up when convenient.  Stress levels have gone through the floor and I'm really enjoying my career again.

If you feel like getting off the hamster wheel, how about moving to a less demanding sector such as clientside roles, or something like the National Trust where you can stay in the industry and retain your skills and experience but not face such a demanding day to day workload?

I’m sure TJ (or Google) can advise on the legal basis everyone has to request a change in working schedule.

I'm not sure at all.  I think you have the right to ask but they have the right to refuse.

My question is at what point do you say enough is enough when you don’t feel you’re enjoying your life outside work anymore because of it and can’t see any way to fix the cause of it?

At the point that you have just described. Your work life is ruining your non work life. That is the line crossed

At the OP, there's loads of excellent advice on this thread, just as there was when I posted a similar topic not long ago. I've not much to add other than a) it's not you, it's a society level problem we have with work and many people are affected and b) if you manage to follow just 10% of the advice here you'll feel a lot better... Use this space to talk to lots of people about what you're feeling (mates, family, GP, trusted mentor type people) and work towards a realisation that it's not inevitable to feel like this.   Good luck. Happy if you want to pm me.

I was working a stupidly stressful job as a line damager until earlier this year. I'm still at the same place, but I've gone back to being a software engineer, and also went down to 4 days a week.

It's a lot less stressful and I get much more time to do what I want (I'm going to Afan tomorrow to be rained on). But I'm still not convinced I should not have just quit entirely.

Thanks all, I can't reply to everyone's post, but I have read them all and the advice is very welcomed and appreciated.

I also work in a property consultancy environment and have certainly found that the constant requirement to be ‘all things to all people’ can be absolutely brutal.

I spent 11yrs working for a large multinational followed by 8 yrs at an LLP, so I was either working my backside off for the benefit of shareholders or equity partners.

Yeah. It's the acting like every client you have is your only one even though they know they aren't. Fair play on setting up on your own terms I'm sure being personally invested in it is much more rewarding than doing it for the benefit of a handful of equity partners.

Overtime only exists because your employer doesn’t supply enough human labour to achieve the tasks in hand – IE not your problem.

That's not necessarily true, some people are piss poor at properly managing their time and workload. Given that, work out what you're actually capable of in the the hours you're paid for and do about 75% of that normally. Occasionally work flat and do overtime out but accept that it's not sustainable.

I’m not sure at all. I think you have the right to ask but they have the right to refuse.

Flexible Working is a legal right. They have a right to refuse but "we don't want you to" isn't good enough, they have to evidence why you can't.

Of course, theory and practice...

My question is at what point do you say enough is enough when you don’t feel you’re enjoying your life outside work anymore because of it and can’t see any way to fix the cause of it?

About that point perhaps, because your life outside work is too important.

I've made an effort to avoid true work stress and the reason why is it almost killed my father when he was my age - stress-related heart attack from work pressures and how that relates to family life, when I was about 13. Always felt like I owe it to him to learn from his experience. Plus, a dose of teenage "F you" to companies that operate in that way, put unrealistic pressures on people and have that effect on a family, something that I never lost. There's a difference between high aims that are supported and motivate you and relentless 'Sell Sell Sell!!!' or impossible tasks and measures pressure. Get out if you can. Work for good people.

PS a relative of mine is in Commercial Property Surveying. He's getting closer to early retirement and has moved around in recent years to manage stress and working environments, he was at one of the largest companies for a long time. If it's a similar industry (think so from posts above?) PM if a linkedin connection might help for a connection and a chat. He's a good guy and very easy to talk to about things like this.

I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually ‘all of them’ !!

I find laughing at this point never fails.

Followed by a "seriously"

Followed by one or more of the tasks failing.

One of the other things that has worked for me in the past with a manager with his head in the sand is 1-1 with their manager to ensure they are aware of the issues brewing and potential impact to business - they weren't. Changes were made and quickly.

Long as you can account for your time so it's worth keeping a tally of the hours spent on tasks.

Occasionally I'll do short periods of longer work for circumstances out of companies control such as my colleague having a stroke and no one else in the dept having the skills to cover - while we train someone....but long term - ie over a month it is not sustainable and management knows this - they are taking the piss .... How much extra hours are they doing to help out ?

To those just saying “just leave it at home” or variations thereof, I’d love to understand how because that is not easy for some of us.

This to me is the hardest part. I did many years in a company, on higher roles and wages than now where there was somewhat of an expectation to be able to available after hours. Because we were US owned and HQ'ed, but I worked for the European Operation, our day kind of eased in from 8am, but then wasn't unusual to get a 'really need some info' type requests up to 9 or 10pm, during the East Coast working day. Most of the time 'lack of planning on your side does not.....' but it came with the territory and I allowed it. Yes, should have turned phones and whatever off, but that wasn't how to get on.... and I ended up burning out. Learning 1.

So now i don't have that issue - we still do longer hours from time to time (if your experiment has just started to show the signal you wanted at 3pm, you don't turn it off at half four so you can be neatly out of the door at 5) but it's easier to choose. But after 20 years my brain hasn't retrained itself, and sometimes I'm sat eating dinner or whatever, and a thought comes into my head and if I don't act on it then it'll still be bouncing around hours later, coming back up to the top, waking me up....etc. So it's easier to spend 15 mins going and checking or sending the email (even just writing it to send the next morning - how daft is that, I don't want the company to think 'Oh look, who's sending emails at 9'o clock again!' - either from a Billy Bigbollocks POV, or even because them my team think they have to do the same)

So yeah - I'd love two brains, one for work and one for home. Or some techniques for switching off that really work and can reverse 20+ years of ingrained bad habits. I've tried having a notebook and just jotting it down but it doesn't really work. Any ideas.

The other thing I struggle with is - if I'm going on holiday for a week or two. It's always stressful in the run up to get things done or in a shape where the person covering doesn't think '****! what a shitshow this is!' and then on holiday part of it will be spent being 'not present' because the mind's gone off onto thinking of how much catching up there is to do. I'm a silly early riser anyway, wife and kids will be at least 3 hours later, is it so bad to use those 2-3 hours to keep on top of a bit of stuff so it isn't such a problem when I'm back. Rhetorical question - my boss and HR business partner are horrified but I tell them I'm a grown up and should be free to make my own choices. But deep down I know they're right, and I need protecting from myself.

^^I could have written that, I’m desperately getting my work in order before going on hols next week, but knowing that customer visits and demos need arranging taking my company iPad to keep an eye on things.  I can’t afford for the process to **** up politically or because I’m in sales so it my wages (commission) at stake.

@theotherjohnv the notebook did not work for me either but I’ve taken to using my personal phone - I use it for my morning alarm so it’s bedside anyway - to WhatsApp myself to my work phone at night.  Seems to work in a logical fashion, can’t say it’s reduced my stress levels.

Also to the above point, having taken on a Senior Management role with a failed company strategy behind it, I’m also thinking I’ll go down the promotional ladder back to individual contributor, but in September will also explore typical post sales job roles in other parts of the business to remove the sales stress.

Recent CBT reinforced the things that work for me - the worry tree and stress buckets mainly, and promote the acceptance theory E.g. “it is what it is” that TJ iterates, but as much as that feels like a nirvana state of achievement for me, I find that very hard.

I’m also thinking I’ll go down the promotional ladder

This also worked for me.  I took promoted posts beyond my abilities.  That was the stressor.  I stepped back down and was much happier.

I found it much better to be a decent staff nurse highly skilled for the work I was doing and able to act as advisor / mentor to those less experienced rather than being a mediocre at best charge nurse

I think the expectation that you should strive to get ahead, be promoted etc can be very damaging - it certainly was for me

the acceptance theory E.g. “it is what it is” that TJ iterates,

I wish I could describe / tell how I reached that point but I just cannot.  I think  part of it was also being more comfortable in my skin and accepting that I was better suited to a more junior role but also a part of it was knowing I had done my best and that I could do no more.  Maybe also being comfortable with putting difficult decisions to those above me and seeking support

Of course healthcare is probably less cutthroat that some of the jobs you guys have - more collaborative and supportive.

I’m not very good at prioritising tasks, and all the managers I’ve ever had have been shit at it too so not really had any good mentors to teach me it.

The key thing for me was when I gained a Manager who actually understood how to lead, and once I'd learned that, life became so much more easier - wish though I'd not worked for 20 years before I met him.

Key handover from my 'mentor', write down your work in priority order and the ones that you must deliver are the ones that if you don't your immediate boss gets 'sacked'.  I've worked like this for the last 20 years and while the approach does mean I'm never a 'golden boy' it also means I usually actually deliver what is really needed.

I am though unmanageable, and I'm 100% aware - but also approaching retirement, so kinda don't care.

One more thing, be an early starter - in fact be the first in, that way no one knows when you started and if anyone comments on you finishing "early", you can retort (loudly) with a "I was here when you were still in your cot" or equivalent - no one will say anything again of when you leave/sign-off.

airvent
Free Member
I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually ‘all of them’ !!

That them trying to avoid the responsibility of making the decision and palm it off onto you. You need a script.

"Of course I understand you would like all of them but given we have X many hours and task 1. Takes Y hours 2. Takes Z hours etc what would you like me to prioritise" then just keep pushing and when they finally respond make sure you put it in a email.

If they absolutely refuse again put in a email so that it's is down that they refused to make a decision and that you will be prioritising task 3,5 and 7 as you have had no guidance. Keep pushing back.

As for leaving things at work it is as with many things a phycological trick. When you feel the stress rise you have to make a conscious effort to say it doesn't matter. Remember, it doesn't actually matter. You can get a new job quickly if you are fired. Don't keep pandering. You have to leave the phone at home, turn it off, turn it on silent, go for a walk where there is no signal (or pretend you did). When asked why didn't you answer the phone just say sorry I was not available. No need to go into excuse mode. No need to give details calmly apologse. Say less. This may produce a more aggressive response but keep calm, it's now them that are stressing, you are now winning. Stay calm, stay polite do not waver from your boundaries.

The advice to 'switch off after work' isn't necessarily helpful, although it may be. If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress. That would be far more difficult and stressful for me to do than simply doing the work. I would be eaten up thinking that I had ****ed everyone over.

In fact, that would remove any kind of satisfaction from my job, and for me at least job satisfaction is a massive contribution to my wellbeing, given that I have to work. Don't get me wrong, if I didn't have to work I wouldn't, but given that I do I need to feel like I'm an appreciated part of a team.

What would fix that problem is if you could convince your whole team to down tools at 5pm, or otherwise resist the ever increasing demands of management.

Reading this thread, i think there's either something wrong with many of you, or on the flip-side, maybe i'm completely abnormal.
I'm going on holiday today for 11 days... i can't say work will enter my mind for a single second until i get up at 6am on the day of turning the laptop back on. My work life and home life don't cross. We do 'on-call' stuff which means i can be called any time of day or night, but get paid for it. However it doesn't trouble me.

I do feel really sorry for some of the posters in here though, it must be a tough existence being like that... 🙁

The advice to ‘switch off after work’ isn’t necessarily helpful, although it may be. If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress. That would be far more difficult and stressful for me to do than simply doing the work. I would be eaten up thinking that I had **** everyone over.

This just perpetuates the issues.  "A team who needs to get things done"   In paid time.  Outside of paid time it is unhelpful to do this.  It is presentism and very damaging to individuals and organisation.  As team leader you should be setting as example.  As one of the team  you should not be working unpaid overtime.  Everyone should be downing tools at 5pm so thenyou are not effing anyone over.  If they are working unpaid overtime then its their fault for doing so not yours for leaving on time

Of course if its a critical point / deadline its perfectly accceptable to do this for a short time.  But its never acceptable to do this on a regular basis or it becomes normalised ( which it seems to have been for you)

This is one of the major reasons IMO why we have this huge epidemic of stress related illness in the UK.  The culture of presenteeism has become normalised in many sectors

this is not a personal  attack Molgrips - its asking you to look at this from another direction.  BY working like you suggest you are actually increasing the stress and risk of burnout for everyone.  working long hours reduces productivity hugely especially where you need to be creative infinding solutions..  tired and stressed folk make poor decisions and higher brain function is reduced

 If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress.

Personally I don't think the issue is necessarily doing work outside of work hours, it's the environment around that expectation that causes the stress. Some jobs have longer hours built in, they just do. How that's managed by the wider team and recognised by your direct managers either relives or causes stress. If it's a case of managers recognising that you're doing longer hours and making sure that you're compensated either by money or TOIL, then that takes away some of the issue, but if it's "just part of the job, get on with it" then you're within your rights to sack it off.

Stress is also insidious – it builds up on you and becomes the new normal.  Its only really when you remove the stressor that you realise how badly you are effected

This is so true, I worked for a year on a project going from a complete buzz getting up to speed working 10 hours a day to needing to work 10 hours a day to cover 7 hours of calls/meetings and actually doing some work or I'd miss key deadlines. I could probably have reached out for more help but all asks for more resource were met with "there is none" or worse, getting resource with no idea who needed to take productive people out to bring them up to speed, all of this with no change to deadlines.

It ended up making me leave the company. I'm now in a spell where I've got that level of work for two weeks in a bit of a peak and I'm knackered, no idea how I functioned at that level for a full year looking back. I still keep in touch with people I worked with and that project has effectively been shelved due to issues I'd flagged up and they ignored!!

If you have a look around you in your current role you've flagged there are people doing stupid hours, are there also people coasting? Are there people who have the balance right and are still performing? Are they on performance reviews? If you can try and properly detach yourself from the situation it'll all look a lot clearer, that could be writing down everything that is right and wrong in your opinion and start to move that around into buckets or perceived or actual so you can focus on what is real and change your internal language on the perceived issues - they may happen, but they also may not and you can deal with them when they do become real...

Prefacing with: I consider myself lucky to have been able to do this and appreciate that not all organisations and managers are so accommodating, but one thing I've been able to do since lockdown (and hence a general move to a lot more WFH than the previous 5 days in the office) was (being an early riser anyway) replacing the morning commute with being at my desk by 0730 - I didn't really have enough time to do anything else (but also don't have a school run or kids needing my attention in the mornings bar the occasional late-running grumpy teenager needing a lift somewhere). I found it to be really helpful in giving me a precious hour before anyone else gets on my case to just deal with 'stuff' that needs focus or is the kind of admin that's essential but will always take a back seat to important meetings / firefighting / looking after other people in a servant-leader / SME capacity. It gets it off the desk and importantly out of my mind. I also empower my team so they are able to make decisions and trust their own judgment so I get involved when I need to but don't micro manage or worry too much about what's going on day to day.

However I found that I'd still be in demand beyond the end of 'my' working day purely based on hours, which is easy to do once I'm in work mode and again don't have to switch off to do a commute home...

But what it did allow me to do (and again with the support of a really good manager) was recognise that based on hours I could easily do 2 x 4 day weeks each month without really noticing. Some weeks I do all the jobs that would otherwise have to be done at the weekend, so the weekend is free (although never my own do to aforementioned teenagers), some weeks I ride, walk, do whatever else I feel like doing for fun, some weeks I just laze around if I feel especially shattered after the 4 day week (I try to not feel too guilty about 'wasting' the day when I do that as it sets me up for a more productive weekend spending time with my wife or whatever)..

Anyway the point was I managed to find a bit of precious time back without it feeling more onerous...

The advice to ‘switch off after work’ isn’t necessarily helpful, although it may be. If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress.

Perhaps it's a bad term. Maybe a better way of saying it is separate work from rest of life, don't place your worth in your just job. Different if you are s of employed or own the business but if it's just a job don't define yourself by it. Your job is a lot less important than you think (unless you're a doctor or nurse or one of the very few jobs that actually matter) software engineer, property whatever, accountant etc don't count. The separation is to allow you to say no, it's not necessary to walk out at 17:00 but to be able to place limits without guilt.

If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress. 

If you're responsible for the rest of the team's wellbeing, then you're responsible for making sure they, too, are not chronically overworking. If you're not responsible for the rest of the team, then this is not your problem. Adding another martyr to the fire doesn't save Joan of Ark.

Teacher here. Use to enjoy it but now management keep changing things every year forcing me to re write my course every September. Went down to 3 days a week just to have time to live which helped a lot. Been looking to get out of teaching for a few years but no luck yet.

Overtime only exists because your employer doesn’t supply enough human labour to achieve the tasks in hand – IE not your problem.

My employer (a school) can’t recruit enough staff, and I know it is a national problem. As a result everyone works much harder covering the gaps, it becomes everyone’s problem.

clink - that is indeed a tricky one because otherwise the kids suffer which is rather different from missing a deadline. However do it to much or too long your effectiveness suffers which also damages the kids.

This also worked for me.  I took promoted posts beyond my abilities.  That was the stressor.  I stepped back down and was much happier.

I found it much better to be a decent staff nurse highly skilled for the work I was doing and able to act as advisor / mentor to those less experienced rather than being a mediocre at best charge nurse

I think the expectation that you should strive to get ahead, be promoted etc can be very damaging – it certainly was for me

Especially when many companies/organisations do nothing to facilitate their staff to develop the skills to climb that ladder.

The "You are a good {insert role} therefore you'll make a good manager and leader of those roles" fallacy has deep roots.

Coming from an organisation where skills and leadership development are a cultural norm into organisations that don't give a **** on the whole, or don't take it seriously has been a culture shock.

In three years I've been witnessed so much potential burned due to a lack of support for development, poor culture, and the worst leadership I've ever had the displeasure of being in the presence of.

Relapsed mandalorian IIRC you are ex services?

In three years I’ve been witnessed so much potential burned due to a lack of support for development, poor culture, and the worst leadership I’ve ever had the displeasure of being in the presence of.

Must have been a bit of a culture shock to you 🙂  Just think of us poor civilians with a whole career of it

If they absolutely refuse again put in a email so that it’s is down that they refused to make a decision and that you will be prioritising task 3,5 and 7 as you have had no guidance. Keep pushing back.

This is a useful trick which I've used a lot when you want to do something and you need to manage a Manager who isn't doing any managing. "This thing needs doing, I'm going to do it tomorrow unless you tell me not to."

As for leaving things at work it is as with many things a phycological trick. When you feel the stress rise you have to make a conscious effort to say it doesn’t matter. Remember, it doesn’t actually matter.

...

If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done,

There are exceptions of course, but for most people's jobs it genuinely doesn't matter. What actually needs to be done?

With apologies to Iain M Banks: It was 4pm when the core switch exploded. It took out all the networking in the building and the telephone system for the entire company. I grabbed a tame network engineer, a phone tech, a manager and a screwdriver and threw myself into the middle of it all. I worked a good degree of overtime that night (ironically on the same day that we had a company-wide email saying that all overtime had to be preauthorised).

But, it was an extraordinary event which I had to respond to (technically I didn't, but I was the person best equipped to do it). If that's just what your working day looks like every day then something is very wrong. If you're on holiday and thinking about work, unless you're the CEO or suchlike, something is very wrong. Being loyal to a company is great, but vanishingly few companies will reciprocate that loyalty.

As I said, there are exceptions of course, the school example above, or I have a friend who works with animals and she can't just not feed them because it's gone 5pm. But for many people things that "need" doing probably don't, and for the ones that do it's likely nothing that a recruitment drive wouldn't fix. In the grand scheme of things, we're just not that important.

The “You are a good {insert role} therefore you’ll make a good manager and leader of those roles” fallacy has deep roots.

There's a name for this, it's called the Peter Principle (though I don't know why). It states that people will be promoted to their level of incompetence. Middle Management is stuffed to the gills with people who are former engineers, salespeople, customer services etc. and I know a lot more bad ones than good ones.

Peter Principle (though I don’t know why)

Because it was a book written by a chap called Lawrence Peter