[Closed] how many people get caught with 1000W pedalecs?

nah, burns unit I'm guessing

Aye, I've warned him to be careful, he's a big fat guy, so convinced he needs the torque!

Some bloke near me uses one. Bleeding obvious judging by the speed he goes uphill and the size of the hub motor.

Does he have to pedal to make it go or is there a throttle ?

points on licence if caught...

dunno tbh all I know about it is this

BBS HD1000 - Bafang Mid Drive
Bafang has developed a new heavy duty, high performance mid drive motor that surpasses the performance of the BBS02. The BBS-HD (Also referred to as BBS03 or BBS-X) is a 1,000W nominal, 1,600W peak output monster of a mid-drive conversion kit, now with factory options for normal 68-73mm cranks as well as wider fat bike cranks (factory order). With 160Nm of torque, 30 Amp 12 MOSFET controller, and the choice of 2 high-drain Samsung cell battery packs, this conversion kit is the most powerful universal DIY mid drive on the market

He's got it with a shady fat bike to go with it, kit was the same price more or less.

I'm bursting for a shot of it mind you! 😆

TurnerGuy - Member
points on licence if caught...

Sounds brilliant fun. Everyone who has rode my legal 250w ebike has come back with a big grin. I bet a 1000w is a real hoot!

ride it like a dick and probably more, as they become more common probably more especially if it has a handy 1000w sign on it. I'd expect some agro once a few crashes come in and the daily angry's get involved too. Probably a good thing as it's basically aiming for electric motorbike with none of the considerations that one would need. So also expect a bit of fuss when the scooter/small Motorbike lot get involved.

Don't understand the power limit my self .

If it's speed limited to 15.5mph then why does it matter what power? Other than some one wrote down a catch all figure

Probably because they had too, if you are the sort of person who would derestrict the power or buy a higher power then whats to stop you doing the mod on the speed sensor.

Using that approach we wouldn't just have speed limits for cars, we'd have power limits too. Seems a poorly thought out way of controlling the use of these things, particularly when they could be a real alternative to driving for a lot of people.

250w is plenty for a bike restricted to 16mph. the only point in having 1000W is to go faster.

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Seems a poorly thought out way of controlling the use of these things, particularly when they could be a real alternative to driving for a lot of people.

250w is plenty for a bike restricted to 16mph. the only point in having 1000W is to go faster.

Or, as alluded to by trail rat, if you want to fit it to a cargo bike used to cart serious loads around.

If there's a speed limit, there shouldn't be a need for a power limit. If the speed limit isn't effective, the policing needs to be better.

Using that approach we wouldn't just have speed limits for cars, we'd have power limits too. Seems a poorly thought out way of controlling the use of these things, particularly when they could be a real alternative to driving for a lot of people.

250W is plenty for a bicycle.
The problem is that unless it is a mid block drive then a 250W motor will struggle on an incline where the 250W motor is not able to deliver the rated 250W because it is turning over well below its rated speed.

There is nothing stopping people from making electric scooters that require CBT to operate.

Saw someone riding one of those Bultaco electric bikes on the road the other day - shit's gonna hit the fan one day 🙁

Plus it's supposed to be 250w of pedal assist, so add on your power to that.

So whats the Legal way to ride one of these in the UK?

http://www.escooterschina.com/html_products/vespa-electric-scooter-factory-china-189.html

Saw a few E-Bikes around in Belgium at the weekend and was talking to a friend about it.

Seems the Belgians have set a limit of 25km/h, anything above that needs a number plate, brake light, insurance, helmet, etc!

Oh, and min age of 16.

There is nothing stopping people from making electric scooters that require CBT to operate.

But they'd then have to be road legal or only be used on private land. Neither of which is what will happen.

"we'd have power limits too."
Cars that is. And WTFN we don't need much really.
More to the point I feel that the whole idea behind a limited electric power is to keep these machines comparable with cycles.
If you want to run electric and have speed and power why not have something legal. The day I can do 50 miles, with say 40mph as a top speed I'll have such a bit of kit. If it needs a licence, so what.
The time will come, because of people pushing their luck when landowner will ban electric bikes. They have to as the powerful ones are motorcycles. The FC will jump on board with that soon otherwise they face problems with discrimination. Why should powerful electric bikes be allowed but not gutless petrol engine ones.
I see the fun with electric but also see that those who wish to break the rules are inconsiderate or just fit nicely into our modern society that says that our own views and demands are more important that those of others.

What speed can these 1000W versions do? More than 30mph?

How long are the pricey motors and battery cells guaranteed for and how are they holding up long term?

I would be more than happy to have these on the road without the 15.5mph limit (which at least some can do with the press of a few buttons), providing the user has to go through the same CBT/license as a low end motorbike and has to have the same level of insurance and MOTs.

Arn't we looking at e-bikes from the wrong perspective here? Intead of putting blockers in place to thier widescale uptake, should we not be looking at ways to encourage thier use more widespread?

My neighbour has one, he has no real interest in cycling, but his resteraunt is 3 - 4 miles away accross town. Now he dashes back and forth often wIth the electic bike, he uses that far more often than his van.

As far as I can see, it's one more 'cyclist' on the road and one less car/van off the road.

What we should be striving for is getting lots of teenagers to have electric bikes and their use being as wide spread as mopeds on the continent. The benefits are threefold,
1) Future generations of road users will be more aware of vunerable road users.
2) Less rush into buying expesive cars when they turn 17/18 as the electric bike will be sufficient for most journeys.
3) An increase in the number of "cyclists" on the road will result in safer cycling for all involved.

That is all before you look at the environmental benefits of shifting combustion engines out of cities. There is also an addred benefit of increasiting the batery storage availability within the grid to speed up the uptake of smart grids / smooth out renewable power generation.

scruff9252 - Member
Arn't we looking at e-bikes from the wrong perspective here? Intead of putting blockers in place to thier widescale uptake, should we not be looking at ways to encourage thier use more widespread?

Firstly how much power is needed? 250w is a fair bit for a solo bike. Any more and your into something that is a lot more powerful than the tech was designed for.
How fast is a bike going? How fast is a motorised bike going? Get it wrong and bikes end up under the harsher restrictions.
There don't seem to be many blocks in place just lots of people go by bigger numbers = better.
That's before we get to off road use...

Marginal gains, innit?

There's nothing to stop you having a more powerful electric bike, just becomes a motor cycle with the other requirements, mot, insurance, licence etc.

The biggest restriction to more common use of the current electric bikes is the lack of infrastructure. Until we start separating the bikes from the other traffic then it won't become a viable option for the majority.

The Dutch and Belgians would never dream of riding a bike on the road. They think we are insane.

Firstly how much power is needed? 250w is a fair bit for a solo bike. Any more and your into something that is a lot more powerful than the tech was designed for.
How fast is a bike going? How fast is a motorised bike going? Get it wrong and bikes end up under the harsher restrictions.

Why not allow electric bikes to go at 18-20mph? It's the 'new' speed limit being rolled out across many UK towns & cities. It's fast enough to make good time across a city and crutially be faster than the car equivalent but not so fast that accidents will be catastrophic for the riders.

Any bike capable of going faster than this strightaway falls into the motorbike catagory with all that it entails.

If there can be a managed clear demarakation for motorbikes (125cc etc) I see no reason it couldn't be managed for e-bikes.

If there can be a managed clear demarakation for motorbikes (125cc etc) I see no reason it couldn't be managed for e-bikes.

At the moment it feels like a free for all starting to happen.

I see someone helpfully deleted my post.

Anyway my biggest bug bear with the 250w limit is the range restriction it places on you.

I've yet to see a 250w midmount kit with a 48v battery - they are all 36v and the biggest I've found with Branded cells is 14 ah. - range is pretty much simplified to v x ah / 15-20 which means 36v and 14ah is a huge restriction over 48v and 20-30 ah .....not all of us want to do a million miles an hour in a bicycle. After all 30mph sliding down the road doesnt appeal if you come off.

Then there are the small windings and 15 amp controller that like to heat up under heavy load hill climbing.

I agree limitations have to be set but there needs to be a mechanism in place for those above imo to encourage use rather than keeping petrol vehicles on the road.

PS try and get an IVA on your +250w pedelec - good luck finding somewhere in UK to do it. Germans have got on it quick + 250w and you can get a number plate

The structure of the current mostly makes sense to me.

Below 25km/h ebike does not require licence, must be at least 14.

25-45km/h class AM 'Scooter' requires licence

>45km/h various categories of Motorbike A1,A2,A

The boundaries and rules are always debateable, e.g. I don't see why CBT for class AM can't be taken at 14 for example.

25km/h is quite a harsh limit for e-bike but then again this is a vehicle with vehicle road worthiness test, licence, or insurance requirements. I think it would be good to create a vehicle class for low momentum vehicles, e.g. below 30kg that could be used on the road up to 45km/h without vehicle testing requirements.

I don't think 25 kph is harsh at all as most people can't keep above 25kph even in ideal conditions so the fact that you can keep going at 25 kmph in non idea conditions means it is still as fast or faster than most people cycle at, requires less effort and is still easy to own with no tests required.

A higher power limit for cargo bikes should be allowed. Defining a cargo bike would have to be carefully defined

I think one of the benefits of a bike is that your speed is restricted by your fitness, and therefore you will have most of your accidents before you've got much speed in your legs.

If you allow more powerful/faster vehicles without licensing requirements, those accidents will take place at higher speeds. For off road use, I don't really fancy seeing what a load of inexperienced riders with several times the (long term) power output of a fit cyclist (i.e. I'd accept you can sprint at 1000W plus, but not for an entire climb) will do to my local trails. And yes, a lot of them have already been trashed from time to time by trail bikes and trials bikes being naugty, but that doesn't mean this should be made legal.

In terms of cargo bikes, although you're not going faster, you are carrying more energy, so it's justifiable to limit the assistance. Of course perhaps there is space for a less regulated area, but there are justifications for the current restrictions.

I saw a scooter/e-bike thing on my urban commute yesterday

Looked like a scooter but have pedals (a bit like a moped). No number plate. Guy was wearing a bicycle helmet. Was in a bus lane (that bikes were allowed in but motorbikes/scooters not)

He was also going fairly slowly (and riding quite badly), was late 40s/early 50s

I overtook him and carried on, but then spent a while trying to work out what exactly it was

This turned into an interesting discussion! 🙂

FWIW, I'm on the side of the current law and I think 250W/15.5mph is more than enough for pedal assistance.

so can can you pedal at say 20mph with a bit of effort ? or is this lost by the extra weight?

At 15.5mlh the motor cuts out, so downhill you could out pace it, on the flat it's purely down to how fit you are.

+1 for the current rule being fine as it is.

15.5mph is average club run speed in the steady group, and you can do that uphill on an e-bike.

With the lack of an MOT for bikes would you really want bikes capable of faster speeds being slowed down only by the cheapest cable disks china has to offer?

You can pedal as fast as you please as long as you have the legs/ fitness to keep the cadence

check out from about 0.25 as she powers her brompton up the hill, passing the roadie.

That Sparticle obviously is not legal as a bicycle in the UK.

Only times I've used electric bike is to go between sites at work. I found I was always going under my own steam on the flat due to the 15mph cut-off. I wasn't getting anywhere quicker than just using my own pedal bike but was putting less effort in on the climbs so less likely to get sweaty.

Twisty.

You say obviously it's not legal.

Yet it is "legal"

So is it obvious ?

That Sparticle obviously is not legal as a bicycle in the UK.

yes, I believe that is it legal.

As of 1st Jan 2016 ebikes had to be pedelec, but conversions from normal bikes can still use throttles, and that is a conversion.

trail_rat - Member
You say obviously it's not legal.

Yet it is "legal"

So is it obvious ?

Yes it is obvious, the maximum rated motor power must not exceed 250W to be legally considered a bicycle. The Sparticle motor has a max power of 1300W. 1300W>250W, therefore the Sparticle is not legally a bicycle.

The funny thing is that I bet a bunch of these bicycles that are not road legal are being bought through the ride2work scheme 😆

[url= http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike-guides/uk-electric-bike-law/ ]Good summary here [/url]

Ah but you miss quote out the important part of the legislation it's even mentioned in your link

It is 250w
maximum continuous rated power output

Its not 250w peak.

As I said apparently not so obvious.

There was a chap wrecking trails at Glentress on Sunday on a Bultaco bike. 🙁 Rider was wearing DH bike gear - not MX gear.

Going uphill he was getting roost from the trail - I know a few folk commented, and one chap went over at the edge of the Buzzards Nest carpark to object to him riding on the trails. The numptie just rode off it seems.

Not acceptable, but he had no vehicle, no number plate etc, so what could we do? It was tempting to call police.....

Treat it as you would have an mx bike.

The video of the Sparticle overtaking the roadie is hilarious

I like overtaking the odd roadie on my (non-electric) Brompton, it's rapid off the lights, it's hilarious. There's no chance of doing that on a normal ride though, it's just not as quick.

An electric brompton is a great idea, becomes a genuinely practical bit of 2 wheeled transport for the average person. Although it'll be 4kg heavier to pick up

Not acceptable, but he had no vehicle, no number plate etc, so what could we do? It was tempting to call police.....

That's what 101 is for.

It's have thought it's a civil issue, riding an electric bike on private land?

The video of the Sparticle overtaking the roadie is hilarious

In rode a Sparticle conversion last week - pretty good although let down by the ride of the brompton.

Still I might get one now I know that twist-and-go throttles are OK on conversions, just might put fatter than normal tyres on it so it is not so twitchy.

Why do you want a throttle so badly turner guy ?

Why not just get a pedal assisted one ?

btw, I said I agree with 250W limit. While that is true, I do think if you are using it offroad say for a bit of cycle camping, or hauling a trailer, I can see that the 250W may struggle a bit?

more wattage justified in that scenario?

Interesting video of someone who has strapped a Baffang motor to their roadbike

74 k/mh (46mph) in a 30 mph zone

Got me thinking about the impact on the e-bike industry if a couple of kids get mowed down by an unregulated e-bike - things woudl quickly change

Why do you want a throttle so badly turner guy ?

Why not just get a pedal assisted one ?

It's the only ones they have in stock and they reckon the pedelec sensor doesn't fit nicely to the brompton.

Plus all the reports say the throttle is more fun...

The less breathing I have to do in London the better nowadays with all that nasty, diesel infested, air.

So long as it remains speed limited is that any different to my cargo bike scenario ?

Its not just that 250w will struggle it's than it could easily damage the equipment as it will be working at absolute full capacity under strain to climb hills

Got me thinking about the impact on the e-bike industry if a couple of kids get mowed down by an unregulated e-bike

Its not just that 250w will struggle it's than it could easily damage the equipment as it will be working at absolute full capacity under strain to climb hills

250w is plenty enough for any bicycle application.
I met a couple touring on FULLY loaded ebikes (google ebikecycletourists) with huge trailers. Bikes were bog standard Kalkoff with the bottom end Bosch motor. At the time their bikes had done around 14.000km with no issues at all. They'd offered to send their bikes to Bosch for inspection afterwards but Bosch we like "No need, we know they'll be fine".
And they were, after 22,000km.....
Anyone who's ridden the Bosch CX Performance line motor will know that they take off like a rat on a rocket as soon as you touch the pedals it really really is pleanty of power.
I've just crunched some numbers and the system the OP is talking about is equivalent to around 13.5bhp (125cc motorcycle territory) and about 106lb/ft torque (car territory) if the numbers are correct.
With the correct gearing that's easily capable of 70-80mph.
So, why should anyone be able to buy one without license, insurance, lights etc? They shouldn't. It's clearly stupid isn't it.

see a women on an elctric moped around town.

It's obviously over 250W.
it's also 'road legal'. It has indicators etc. no numberplate though.

she rides with a open faced moped helmet, sometimes in the road, some times up the shared use pavement.

Wider use like this will get it clamped down upon. I think the law is just about ok atm, just too many people flouting it/ not understanding it.

Got me thinking about the impact on the e-bike industry if a couple of kids get mowed down by an unregulated e-bike

I'm sure it won't be long now.

40kg hardly needs capitals for fully does it ? Thats what 88lbs ? About 1/2 of common Cargo bike ratings ?

Haibikes as well -3 of them

More so the Bosch motor in question is just a software restricted bigger motor. No different to speed restricting a.n.other motor.

As I said dicks will be dicks no matter what the vehicle

"So, why should anyone be able to buy one without license, insurance, lights etc? They shouldn't. It's clearly stupid isn't it"

Absolutely agree and would participate in that no problem. Just point me in the direction of how...and don't say IVA as the mechanism to get a pedelec registered is not there yet. Fingers crossed for January 2017s announcement

Ah but you miss quote out the important part of the legislation it's even mentioned in your link

It is 250w
maximum continuous rated power output

Its not 250w peak.

As I said apparently not so obvious.

It is obvious to someone trained in the art that a system that will output 1300W peak is going to measure way over 250W max continuous rated power when [url= http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R085r1e.pdf ]measured according to the method referenced in the regulations[/url]

It might not be so obvious to people not trained in the art, but essentially they are mis-selling that product as appearing road legal when it is not, esp as they advertise the ride 2 work scheme cost for it.

All depends how much heat it can dissipate and the how soon it reverts to its 250watt MCR

I doubt it can sustain 1300watt peak for more than a couple minutes if not less of a 30minute test.

But that doesn't stop then writing clever program a bit like vw did with their cars to get them through testing. I know there are a couple of identical motors you can buy with different labels and programming - depending on which country your in.....

btw, I said I agree with 250W limit. While that is true, I do think if you are using it offroad say for a bit of cycle camping, or hauling a trailer, I can see that the 250W may struggle a bit?

more wattage justified in that scenario?

Nope.

Still going to tear up the trails. Spend the thousand pounds or so on lighter kit instead. If you're genuinely old/ill, 250W will take you up to (and possibly beyond) what other people can manage - and to be honest if you ever get to anything you can't ride over, you'll be a bit knackered regardless. If you want a motorbike, get a motorbike and ride it where you are permitted to ride a motorbike. Otherwise, pack light or go slow!

I've just crunched some numbers and the system the OP is talking about is equivalent to around 13.5bhp (125cc motorcycle territory) and about 106lb/ft torque (car territory) if the numbers are correct.
With the correct gearing that's easily capable of 70-80mph.
So, why should anyone be able to buy one without license, insurance, lights etc? They shouldn't. It's clearly stupid isn't it.

Indeed, almost like the 250W limit (as well as speed restrictor for the assistance) is sensible!

footflaps - Member
That's what 101 is for.
It's have thought it's a civil issue, riding an electric bike on private land?

They often have a motorcycle nuisance team, and although I'm no legal expert, a quick google gave this old article: [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4809898.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4809898.stm[/url], specifically:

Sgt Airth stressed that it was a criminal offence to ride a motorcycle or moped on common land without lawful authority and that it was the responsibility of riders to obtain permission from landowners.

However, the rules do not allow the output power to vary much throughout the test.
Basically anything that ever outputs more than 275W is not allowed.

This is for the controller & motor combination, the motor itself can be oversized to guard against overheating in demanding conditions, or allow it to provide max power across a range of speeds etc.

But any bicycle advertising a peak power of over 250W is not UK road legal. They are just using the '250W nominal' figure to encourage wishful thinking people to think it kind of conforms, when it obviously does not.

Edit:

I've just crunched some numbers and the system the OP is talking about is equivalent to around 13.5bhp (125cc motorcycle territory) and about 106lb/ft torque (car territory)

Got me thinking about the impact on the e-bike industry if a couple of kids get mowed down by an unregulated e-bike

I have no problem whatsoever with eBikes. Off-road/on road, power output or whether the user should/should not wear a helmet, or be of a certain age to ride them.

I think they should be encouraged and open to all.

One proviso only, that they should be fitted with peddles.

And no throttle would be my addition to that bikebouy assist only

And no throttle would be my addition to that bikebouy assist only

the funny thing was that with the throttled brompton/sparticle I actually did pedal anyway, it just seemed more natural and possibly more stable.

I couple of times I coasted to experience it, but generally not.

I think the key difference was I could open the throttle and start moving and then pedal along, instead of the other way round - and I think that had the edge on making a smooth, and possibly safer, getaway.

It certainly might mean you could get away with a 2 speed brompton instead of three as it would be easier to push the harder gear from a standstill, and therefore you could choose a bigger front ring for when you want to push past the 15.5mph.

I think the current EU law allows for a throttle but only up to 6mph, so that might be why.

Just had a wee play on it, just about the estate on the roads, just clocked up 4.5 miles. Tis a bloody marvellous thing! Cruising a steep uphill at 20mph is brilliant! 😆

Was really easy to get it up to 25mph, any higher than that I you'd either need to pedal like mad or have and very long straight to let motor go beyond that, which I think it would quite easily. Though this is on a 25/30kg(inc motor etc) fat bike, so if you stick it on the likes of a road bike, you'd smash that no problem.

Wouldn't like to run out of battery on it mind, you'd get home, but it'd be a tough pedal.

As a commuting machine though e-bikes in general really should start a revolution I reckon, you don't need the 1000W power, but still, I think there should be a large push by the government to get people on them, if for no other reason, they'd go a long way to reducing congestion. Yes you can just put the thing on 9 and you're using next to no effort, but there's a calculation there in that if you want to go further you need to pedal to preserve the battery.

All in all a big thumbs up from me! 🙂 I kinda want one, but I'll resist the temptation for a few years I think.

Mine is 250w Bosch. It
Legally cuts out at 15mph. But of
Course you can pedal past it
Got up to 42 mph down a local fire road